Does Frank Shamrock Share the Same Fate as Chuck Liddell?
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 5:03 PM EDT
Email
Print
Promoted to the front page from the FanPosts by Chris Nelson.
Many fans seem to think so, but I'm not entirely convinced. Neither is Scott Coker. According to an interview with MMAMania's Brian Oswald, Coker still believes that if Frank knocks his next opponent out, he could be back in line for another huge fight, potentially a rematch with Cung Le:
Brian Oswald (MMAmania.com): Back to Shamrock; did his loss to Nick Diaz kill a rematch with both Cung Le and Tito Ortiz?
Scott Coker: You know and I know … right now the media is all down on Frank Shamrock. But if Frank gets another fight and knocks out so-and-so then it all turns around and he is the hottest guy back in the mix. It’s just the nature of the beast. I think there is still a very good chance of Frank fighting Cung Le.
I will be having a conversation with Frank next week about his future — what he wants to do, who he might want to be matched up with, etc. I think both fights that you mention are still promotable and just need to be built back up in the appropriate manner. Frank’s next fight will determine a lot.
It's interesting that we talk about Frank Shamrock potentially being past the stages of being a drawing power after a huge defeat at the hands of a young veteran like Nick Diaz. Shamrock looked crushed in this loss, and it didn't help that Diaz was better in nearly every area of the fight. Even if we take out the broken rib that Shamrock sustained weeks ahead of the fight, I doubt he could have overcome the skillful striking and reach advantage that Nick presented.
However, there are some marketable fights in the making if Frank does, in fact, put up a solid win against an actual name. Frank against Fighter A with a 4-0 record isn't going to help his case, but I think there are some fights that Frank can win which could at least make a fight against Cung Le or Tito Ortiz fathomable.
I'm also still in the camp of thought that Frank Shamrock was completely incompetent in trying to fight Cung Le standing. If a rematch were to happen, I have no doubt that Frank would try to go to where his strengths lie - in the ground game, an area where Cung Le hasn't been tested yet. Tito Ortiz remains a name in the mix as well, but Ortiz may prove a very formidable opponent if his back surgery successfully brings him back to 100%.
Unfortunately for Frank, the matchup with Cung may end up dying out if Jake Shields or Robbie Lawler get a chance at Le. Coker mentions that it will be discussed if Shields wins, and as the reigning EliteXC champ in the weight class, Lawler would be in line as well. Both guys have solid experience over Cung Le, and Shields has a massive ground advantage.
If Shamrock loses his next fight, is it time to say goodbye to him as well, much like Chuck Liddell? I suppose it depends on the name and how badly he's beaten, but age is catching up to his body. Injuries have been the huge roadblock for Frank, and I don't believe he can take much more before he has to think about quality of life. Or Is it time to say goodbye now?
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
53 comments
|
Do you like this story?
Comments
"Frank would try to go to where his strengths lie in the ground game"
How is Frank supposed to get Cung to the ground though? He even admits that his shots are slow and he hasn’t attempted one in a fight since 1999. Clinching with Cung isn’t going to work. He can’t beat Le, period.
And I find Shamrock different from Liddell in the fact that San Jose loves Frank, and he’ll always be a drawing card there. He’s much more business-savvy than Chuck, and the degradation of his skills is almost not that important.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
"And I find Shamrock different from Liddell in the fact that San Jose loves Frank"
I know that you are not seriously saying that Frank Shamrock is more of a draw than Chuck Liddell, Right? San Jose aside, which I have no way of knowing if what you are saying is true, but Liddell is also from California & I would venture to guess he holds a huge following there as well.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I’m not comparing them as overall draws, I’m saying Frank is much better at selling himself, especially to his hometown. It’s apples and oranges because of the organizations they work for and how they’re marketed. Frank will simply last longer than Chuck with sub-par skills because he’s the current face of his company. Chuck WAS, but the UFC will be fine without him.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Yeah, I reread what you wrote &
I realized that. No worries.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
It’s definitely a question. How does Frank get him to the ground if Cung’s kicks and range are very quick, yet also powerful? Diaz’s reach was a huge factor, and Cung, while not overly lengthy, uses his quick legs to maintain a range. It’s very effective.
I agree, Frank is much more business savvy, and I think he has much more of a future past fighting, and I think that’s going to become a big focus down the road. I could definitely see him helping Coker make Strikeforce bigger.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
"He’s much more business-savvy than Chuck"
Except that he took the prime years of his career off and Chuck turned the prime years of his career into millions of dollars.
Not trying to nitpick, but one seems to have done better for himself and its not Frank.
I would agree with you. In business its about money, and only money. Chuck fought and won while Frank argued with his brother. I’ll take Chucks business savvy (making multi millions) over Franks.
I don’t think Shammy would be making the money he is right now if he didn’t take that time off. He quit at the top, stayed out long enough that he would be viewed as “The Legend” without having to defend the title, so to speak, and now he’s making 400k a fight after the sport completely blew up. He was also successful in his other business ventures, so fighting for peanuts in 2003 wasn’t worth it. I guess it’s a matter of perspective.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
I still think Shamrock vs. Renzo II, or Shamrock vs. Miletich can fill up the Shark Tank and make for another good Showtime main event. And if he wins that, a rematch with Le on CBS would certainly sell. It isn’t like with Chuck, where he is going to be forcibly retired.
Agreed. I think too many people are thinking of quality here. Frank in San Jose against either of those guys would sell, and it would set up for a rematch, even if it’s likely that Cung would tool Shamrock a second time.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
“It isn’t like with Chuck, where he is going to be forcibly retired.”
No matter how many times he gets knocked out. Yay for Frank? Yay for Strikeforce?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
It isn’t like with Chuck, where he is going to be forcibly retired.
Even if he doesn’t retire, he could be a few beatdown away from never being licensed again if he can’t satisfactorily pass a medical.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 24, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Just line up F. Shamrock vs Ortiz already
Who will Shamrock fight that is A) a real, challenging matchup; and 2) someone he has a legit shot to beat? Sure, Strikeforce could line up an up-and-comer sure bet win for him to regain confidence, but that’s the kind of crap I hate about boxing. Major league teams play major league teams. Just because Detroit went 0-16 last year doesn’t mean they get to play an Arena League opponent so they can “regain their confidence”. So, my thinking is that unfortunately Shamrock is at a point where he is unable to compete with top talent. That being the case, give the fans what they want to see – line up the Ortiz fight. Besides, Frank probably has a chance against Ortiz who himself looked to be on the downhill slide before taking 1+ years off.
Depends on how people look at it. Tito himself would say that he’s still one of the best because he nearly defeated the LHW champ, Rashad Evans. He’ll promote that quote to the grave at this point, even though most of us can tell that Rashad has vastly improved.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly I thought the fight against Diaz was just plain weird. Am I right? All the pawing they kept doing back n fourth really annoyed me. Frank seamed really rusty. For some reason I think he’ll look better on his next fight. Even though he lost I think it probably gave Frank a tune up as to what he needs to work on. The ribs didn’t help but I don’t think that was a major factor anyway. I’m not ready to retire him just yet.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
This is all kinda crazy, because we're talking apples and oranges
Chuck’s UFC career is over. That’s because the UFC – for the most part – only employs top-level talent. With Chuck falling out of title contention, he doesn’t belong in the UFC.
Frank’s Strikeforce career is not over. That’s because Strikeforce – for the most part – only employs mid-level fighters and has-beens. With Frank moving from mid-level to has-been, he’s RIGHT WHERE HE BELONGS.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Yeah, but the source of the article is a bit more along the lines of the reactions following the event. Because Frank was so busted up in the bout, a lot of people jumped the gun in my mind. After the Liddell loss, some fans even said it was the same type of deal. I disagree.
I still think smoogy is right in the above comment, a fight with Renzo or Miletich and a win in that bout could still produce enough hype in the right market.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just saying: the bush leagues ain’t the big leagues.
But while we’re comparing them: who thinks Chuck would have a hard time with Strikeforce’s current LHW champ? Or that Liddell/Sobral III wouldn’t earn a ton of money?
Heck, if you want to make a fight out of it, Chuck vs Overeem is a more competitive fight than that… And Chuck would probably still win.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I’m going to go against that prediction. I’d lay a max bet on Overeem in that matchup at this stage, but they aren’t in the same arena in terms of weight anymore.
Sobral vs. Liddell compels me a bit now that Chuck’s striking has gone downhill.
But you’re right, bush leagues aren’t the big leagues. I think some fans are trying to compare the two though, and that’s where the argument stems. I think the league Frank is in should give him a chance to build himself back into a situation in which he can draws crowds. A lot of people are saying he’s done. I don’t think so.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
"A lot of people are saying he’s done. I don’t think so."
But he just got done having the shit beat out of him by Nick Diaz! What can he offer that would really scare anyone at this stage in his career?
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Diaz is still young and was very motivated going into that fight. The flaws of the worst Frank Shamrock we’ve ever seen were magnified by the best Nick Diaz we’ve seen in a while.
by Chris Nelson on Apr 24, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly my thought
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
YES
I wish people would understand Diaz was an elite and motivated opponent. I bet on him hard after seeing that he was an underdog
by EazyEismydad on Apr 24, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Elite? At Middleweight? REALLY?
Puff, puff, pass, guys.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
It was at 180, Diaz is a LW/WW, and last I checked Lawler is an elite MW that Diaz beat. Also Diaz would be an easy top 10 LW if the Gomi fight wasn’t taken away
by EazyEismydad on Apr 24, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He wouldn’t be considered a top-10 LW anymore, even with the Gomi win.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 25, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Only because he doesn’t care about stuff like that and jumps around weight classes. Look at his career and its impossible to argue that he doesn’t belong with the best of the sport. Surely he could fair well in the UFC
by EazyEismydad on Apr 25, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying anything about how he’d fair in the UFC. But he wouldn’t be considered a top-10 LW even with the Gomi win because he got his ass kicked by KJ Noons and has looked lackluster against everybody else besides Frank Shamrock. One win over a Gomi-esque figure and then a bunch of other fights where you look awful doesn’t keep your ten spot very long, ask Gonzaga, and especially not in the world’s deepest division.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 25, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, the reason people compare them is that we put them on the same rankings. Case in point, Robbie Lawler is #6 on the BE meta-rankings. If Frank beat him in a title shot, would that make him the #6 MW in the world? After losing to a welterweight who couldn’t hang with Sean Sherk and Diego Sanchez?
Chuck’s defensive wrestling is still too good for Babalu, and Babalu’s boxing is still sooooo sloppy.
And Overeem is walking around 12-15 pounds heavier than Chuck. I’d like to see that match. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
You really think that Chuck would do well against Overeem now? I’d bet the house on Overeem in that matchup.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 24, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet Overeem can crushes him against a fence inside 3 minutes. The size difference is insane, and more weight would just make Chuck slower.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I shook hands with Overeem at Strikeforce
And also went to Cal Poly where Chuck has his gym. So I have seen both men in person…Overeem is wayyy bigger than Chuck.
A match now in my opinion (assuming Chuck moved to heavyweight) would be a slaughter.
Taller or just more built? there is always that PEDs rumor. Wonder what Chuck would look like at heavy. Maybe he would have the Roy Nelson build?
Disclaimer: I hate saying that somebody is done
I don’t think that it’s my place to tell some fighter what to do. That said, I don’t think he’d be competitive outside of old timers. Renzo, Miletich, and guys like that make sense to me. If his knees are half as bad as he downplays them, he probably should stop fighting everybody but the nearly retired.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Senior Circuit! Dan Severen, Mark Coleman, et al! Keep them employed and they won’t suffer too much damage.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 24, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Great analsyis Leland.
Leland,
Brian from MMA Mania here. Great analysis and angle for an article. Thank you for reading the interview. Scott is a great guy and great business man. I really look forward to seeing what they can accomplish. I cant believe I just now signed up for Bloody Elbow but your article was the tipping point! Can’t wait to explore the community and leave more comments.
LOL, I figured you’d have already been a user and shot into the thread eventually. Good to see you adding to the community.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I feel kind of guilty now for reading the site so much and not signing up…I promise to make up for it though =) Let me know if there is any way that I can serve the great community here at BE.
MMA Mania is a great site. Thumbs up.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 24, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Great interview too. This quote got me all giddy.
We would like to hearken back to the old PRIDE days when you used to see a lot of big fights in one night. Not just a headliner and four "okay" fights. That is what we want to get back to. When a fan can come in, pay as little as $30 to get into the stadium, and see five superstar fights. I think that everyone would like to see that.
by Chris Nelson on Apr 24, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Its great that he wants to do that. Who wouldn’t want to have a stacked show and cheap tickets, but it is hard to get it done. But with that said, its good that he is targeting superstar fights and not meaningful fights. I see that as there path to sucess in the short term. Sprinkle in a few meaningful fights and get the guys that will fill the seats and make showtime happy.
As a side note, I do love MMA mania. I was a source for a story and it made me feel meaningful. I will love them forever.
Working to create a smarter fanbase is a start…
That’s definitely the aim with a lot of the articles, get the brain moving, get some solid conversation in. One of the things that sucks for me is that generally in my area (Central Illinois), MMA isn’t the biggest thing to discuss. I can discuss all ideas and topics here and get great feedback.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 24, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Chuck Liddell and Frank Shamrock are both still relevant in that they could fill stadiums. Frank in San Jose by his own promotional efforts, and Chuck simply due to his name and exposure in the UFC. Where the hell is Cung Le in the 185 lb mix? They took Josh Thompsons title away and he’ll be back to fight before we see Cung in the ring again. So why does Cung Le still carry around his title? He hasn’t even defended. And Tito vs Frank is just stupid to me. Franks small for 185 now, just lost at a catchweight of 179 to a guy who should be fighting at 170, he has no business at LHW.
I take it more as one loss to a really talented fighter. Come on, Diaz has it goin on in there. I don’t think he’s finished, but I think he needs to pick his fights. He’s more like Matt Hughes after the third GSP fight. He shouldn’t take on a Thiago Alves or someone he matches up poorly against. He should take fights where he has a solid chance and that is a good name that makes money.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
