Shogun Rua's Impressive Win Still Leaves Questions
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
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Promoted from the FanPosts by Kid Nate.
Saturday evening's main event between Anderson Silva and Thales Leites didn't exactly get fans terribly excited to watch the final fight of the evening. Stylistically, most fans saw the fight as a potential trouncing of Leites at the hands of Silva's standup game. Instead, we were given five rounds of Silva being reluctant and hesitant in letting his hands go, and Leites flopping to the floor to anticipate a ground war. Fortunately for us, the real main event in Chuck Liddell vs. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua delivered.
I'll be the first to admit that I was completely wrong about this matchup. For days, I've argued my case to hardcore and casual fans alike. I had smoogy breathing down my neck about my analysis of the matchup and trolling casual fans criticizing me for placing a bet on Liddell. I was still confident that the stylistic matchup in Liddell vs. Shogun would favor Liddell. Normally, this is a fairly accurate way to pick fights, but of course, MMA is much more volatile.
Where did most of us go wrong on Chuck Liddell? I think the most glaring problem is that Chuck Liddell has, in fact, slowed down considerably. All the talk regarding his training at ATT may have improved his boxing technically, but his speed isn't what it used to be. Furthermore, Chuck's chin has went from being able to take considerable damage to hardly able to take a clip of a knuckle. Both are problems attributed to an aging fighter who has pushed himself past his prime.
With Shogun's win over Chuck Liddell, the possibilities have opened up to fans trying to analyze who the UFC will try to match him up with next, but I have some different questions. While I'm a huge Shogun Rua fan and I found myself rooting against my own bet during the fight, I'm still reluctant to profess that the real "Shogun" Rua is back.
Four minutes and 28 seconds isn't enough time for us to quickly state that Shogun's cardio is back, but the win will allow him to continue putting a huge emphasis on it. His aggressive nature that we're used to seeing in PRIDE was there, but his standup wasn't as technical as many fans made it out to be. The big factor in Shogun's win, in my mind, was the fact that Liddell just isn't what he used to be anymore. With that said, we should reserve judgment on whether Rua is truly back until he faces someone that will provide a stiffer test.
Like many hardcore fans, I'm hoping Shogun can become the dominating machine that he once was in the PRIDE ring. Did this matchup prove that? No, I don't think it proved much at all. He looked in better shape, but is five minutes enough time to truly determine that he is back? For now, I'll give him the credit he deserves. It was a great win, and I hope the UFC gives him a solid challenge to prove to the world that he is truly back to form.
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only one way to find out
and that’s to see him tested against some top contenders at 205.
I think if Rich Franklin beats Wandy that a Franklin/Shogun match would be big fun.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Oh yeah I forgot about Rich. That’d be a great fight! Another great opponent would be the winner of Griffin/Silva. Shogun (2.0?) vs Griffin II would be sweet!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 20, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I do not understand how this was really a good showing for Rua?
He finished a fighter, who was great, but is absolutely done & was not quick enough to counter. Had Rua dominated Chuck for multiple rounds without gassing I would have agreed, but there was not a lot to that fight to indicate Rua is back. Your comments about Chuck’s declining speed & chin were the key points to this fight in my opinion.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Exactly. This is exactly what I would have wanted to see to prove it. Multiple rounds.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think that catching Chuck
at this point in his career does not mean anything. Even though it was a short sampling, there was nothing about this fight that impressed me for Rua.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
This is essentially what I was getting at. Defeating Chuck at this point just isn’t what it used to be, so I’m wanting to see one more solid matchup before I jump back on the “War Shogun!” bandwagon.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, I was just commenting about others who seem to think
Rua has returned to the Pride glory days.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I agree that Shogun looked much better, but still may not be “back” yet; however I never jumped off the bandwagon. It’s naive optimism, sure, but I don’t care. WAR RUA!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose I can say I’ve never been off the bandwagon. I have always rooted for him and wanted him to win, even in this matchup, but my analytical side saw the matchup as a Liddell favor due to the range, reach, takedown defense.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here, actually – I didn’t think Shogun would have improved that much since the Coleman fight. Even if Chuck moves slower nowadays, he still hits hard, and if Shogun couldn’t keep his hands up, he would have lost.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 20, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd think a good "Shogun's Back!" test would be a rematch with Forrest.
Assuming he is back himself.
I would like to Rua-Forrest II as well,
but I would like to see Rua face a young talented fighter whom he has to respect on the feet. Just like their last meeting, the only chance Forrest really has is submitting or decisioning a gassed Rua & if Shogun has rectified that part of his game will not happen again.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I would like to see Rua face a young talented fighter whom he has to respect on the feet
Luis Cain?
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 20, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i’d love to see shogun vs. cane or jardine at this point. a lot of people are clamoring for the forrest rematch, but that’s way too far off. i feel that a jardine matchup would present new problems for shogun to overcome and a cane matchup has the potential to be a war.
but i disagree that the shogun-liddell fight showed more about liddell’s age than shogun’s progress.. shogun was able to feature all the parts of his extremely well rounded game in a little over four minutes. he was able to show a sick takedown, a submission that was really close to being finished, and very effective standup. his timing and counters to chuck were fantastic. yes, chuck has slowed down a bit, but this should not take anything away from shogun’s impressive performance because he completely outclassed chuck… and this is with his back against the wall in a do-or-die fight in which not many people gave him a chance in.
Very nice takedown, yes. I’ll give Shogun that, but he similarly had some of that in the Griffin fight. It went long though, and that’s when the cardio showed. His timing was very good, but I’m still not entirely impressed with his standup, but it did improve. That’s a very good sign.
Jardine is a great suggestion. I think Jardine would potentially make it a longer fight.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
oh by no means am i saying that 2005-Shogun is back, but the flashes of greatness showcased in this fight were enough to get my inner fanboy very excited. he was quick in this fight and those leg kicks were powerful as hell.. rewatch the fight, the leg kick shogun opened with did a lot of damage to chuck. he didn’t put much pressure on it at all the rest of the fight. his standup looked real good to me, not his best but not his worst.
i’m still reserving my judgement as to whether he’s back or not until i see him get into the second and third round. if he can continue this pace later into the fight, then he’s definitely back and the LHW division needs to watch out. i think jardine would be a great gauge as to where he is now because he can present problems to any of the top LHW’s with his awkward style
how about jardine-griffin 2? and give rua cane or even put him against jackson
jardine griffin would be a stellar fight and if griffin beats silva would make for an interesting grudge match that either fighter could win. the same goes for jackson rua. rua 2005 destroyed jackson but it would seem that the advantage would be on the other foot and would give jackson a fight before he would have to get beaten up by the dragon. and if rua is really back could be good grounds to build him as a number 1 contender
"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand
Rua's takedown was nice & he did take Chuck's back but did nothing with it.
And saying Chuck has slowed down a bit is the understatement of the year.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
shogun’s takedown on chuck was impressive because it was on chuck liddell. the transition to the heel hook was beautiful and very fluid, as well. yes, he did nothing with it, but liddell has arguably the best takedown defense at LHW. the fact that shogun got him down does not bode well for the rest of LHW division which has relatively weak bjj.
...and back-n-fourth we go
Cut the guy some slack. There was a SHIT-TON of pressure on him. Obviously the hype did enough to have the majority of people picking Liddell on this fight. Thats the thing about MMA, one well placed punch or flurry of punches and Chuck could have easily come away with the W. But since he lost, oh now hes too old. lmao! You’re basically discrediting Shogun right off the bat. Bottom line Rua did his job and showed some good stuff. I agree though, woulda been nice to see the exact same outcome…but in the 2nd round.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Most of us, myself included, picked Chuck
because we were underestimating how much his speed/chin have declined or maybe (me especially) just did not want that to be the case. I give Shogun credit for the win, but had they met 3 years ago I do not see this same outcome. My main point was that we did not see enough from Shogun to definitively say “He’s back”!!
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Discrediting Shogun? I’m giving him credit, but I’m simply saying that because Chuck is on the decline, we shouldn’t be overanalyzing this as a fight in which Shogun is back to his old form.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You are exactly right.
Had Chuck won would everyone be saying the Iceman is back? I am a huge Chuck fan, but even I could not say that.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I guarantee I would have been standing in line to checkout at the local grocery store, and some idiot would have actually said that. Almost every Sunday after an event while I run errands, I hear the most ridiculous stuff at the store or at a local pub watching baseball.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I know they would,
but it would ridiculous. Not so much for Rua, but none the less.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
You know, my kids love to play the “slap game” with me. This is where two people face each other and one puts their hands out palms up, the other person places their hands palms down above, and the person on the bottom tries to slap the back of the other’s hands.
The reason the kids like to play is that at 34 my reaction time is slipping. I’m no star athlete so I was never all that fast, but I used to be much better than I am now. At this point, I’m basically waiting for them to get tired of slapping my hands and get sloppy. But once they do, I’m as fast as I ever was – probably faster. From the bottom, I don’t lose at that game, and the game goes on until the other person quits. My friends all gave up playing me years ago – it’s no fun to lose every time.
To me, this is what it feels like is happening to Chuck. At 39, his hand speed is still there. His strength, his conditioning, his skills are all as good as they’ve ever been. (And this whole “chin” nonsense is just that – the guy isn’t physically any easier to knock out than he ever was.) But his reaction time is killing him.
No matter how fast he can throw a punch, a younger fighter is going to react to it faster. And when that fighter throws, Chuck is going to take a little longer to react. And for a counter-puncher, that means he’s done. He cannot possibly rely on his hand-speed when his his mind is slowing down.
Unless Chuck is training flat out with somebody going at full speed trying to hurt him, he probably never sees this outside an actual fight. But it’s time for him to either retire or start fighting other old guys on the retirement track.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Apr 20, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That was good.
I wrote something similar about Liddell vs Evans. Chuck had already loaded his uppercut & Rashad was able to counter with overhand right before Chuck could get off. Had that same scenario played out a few years ago, it would most likely ended up with Rashad on the canvas instead of the other way around.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
There wasn’t enough time to tell if old Shogun is back, but it is important to note that Shogun looked one hell of a lot better than his last outing.
Kudos to Shogun for coming back from 2x knee surgery and get a big win.
Keep firing Assholes!
"Shogun looked one hell of a lot better than his last outing"
That is true, but it would have been very hard for me not to really.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I pretty much said the same thing Leland…although not as indepth…I was focusing moreso on his next matchup…nice job though.
http://www.mmaforreal.com
A lot of the articles already posted talked about many of my points, but I thought I’d throw my two cents into the pile. I run a seperate business from my real job on the weekends, and I don’t have time to write on Sundays after events. I know some people wanted to hear some of my thoughts, and I felt that a lot of more casual fans were hailing this win as the comeback for Shogun. It just wasn’t that evident to me.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
LIDDELL fans now are making excusses.... (OF COURSE RIGHT????))))))
I don’t care if he took him to the third, second, or first round… That is what made Shogun before in Pride… He finished all of his opponents in first round TKO’s (just ask Jackson, Arona, Overeem, and now Liddell…) Bottom line he beat Liddell and any other fighter would rather finish it in lightning fashion as Shogun did… Shogun look hella bad ass… Dude, did you see how he was blocking Liddells punches, damm those leg kicks from Shogun were bad… I’m loving his new camp…. WHO EVER DANA PUTS IN FRONT OF HIM… He is going to beat!!!
WAR SHOGUN!!!
N1SHOGUNRUAFAN
Yes, people are making excuses for a 40 year old fighter.
He has had one decent fight while in the UFC. You can go back to the Pride highlights all you want, but he is not that same guy.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
40
39
:P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 20, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand your dilema, Leland...
I had the same one w/ Denis Kang…. for which you criticized me for…. and it turns out I was all wrong since Denis Kang pulled out the victory.
I like the Luiz Cane fight, but I’m willing to bet that perhaps Shogun will get the loser of Machida vs Evans.
Well, I try not to be biased when it comes to picking fights. But in the back of my mind and sitting on the couch watching the event with friends, biases are the fun part. I rooted for Rua fully knowing I’d drop money if he won.
Kang was a different story. I’ve seen Pokam fight more than the average fan in my mind, and he’s just one of those guys I felt that Kang would beat.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I had smoogy breathing down my neck about my analysis of the matchup and trolling casual fans criticizing me for placing a bet on Liddell.
I would have paid to see the look on your face when Chuck lunged right into Shogun’s right hand in the first minute of the fight. OH DELICIOUS
Actually, here was a huge problem I had that night. I missed literally every replay and I missed the actual punch. Every time a replay came up, all I’d see is Chuck on the floor. But I did have a look of surprise.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post, but c’mon with all the people who picked the Iceman making assumptions that picking Shogun was craziness! Leland wrote “I had smoogy breathing down my neck about my analysis of the matchup and trolling casual fans criticizing me for placing a bet on Liddell. ”….
Trolling, casual fans? Sure, Chuck had the majority of internet opinion and even fighters on his side, but when the minority is right about a big fight like this one it doesnt make them “trolling, casual fans.” Hell, they were right! Maybe those (us) trolls knew Chuck’s age before Saturday night… Maybe us casual trolling fans had seen his fight with Rashad. Hell, maybe we’d seen the old Shogun and thought “hmmmm, theres prolly a better chance of a youngster like Rua coming back to top form than The Iceman who is pushing 40.”
Disagreeing with the masses doesnt make you a troll or a casual fan. Especially if you turn out to be right.
Actually, it was only two trolling, casual fans, so I shouldn’t lump them together.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Had Rua dominated Chuck for multiple rounds without gassing I would have agreed, but there was not a lot to that fight to indicate Rua is back.
Are you serious? Demolishing a guy the way he did wasn’t good enough, so you want him to do it for more unnecessary rounds where the risk of getting caught is higher? Oh yeah, that’s fucking smart. Why didn’t we all think of that?
Do some of you even think before you post? That’s not rhetorical.
And Shogun proved he’s back. The leg kicks showed it. He actually had hip drive and torque, something he lacked against Coleman. And he’s getting his confidence back which is the most important part.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
Shogun’s biggest problem against Forrest and Coleman was gassing too early. He didn’t have time to gas this time, so that worry was never assuaged. Sokoudjou leveled two top fighters early, but eventually showed to have significant cardio problems. Who’s to say Shogun isn’t in the same position right now? Yes, he looked leagues better than his last fight, and of course no one thinks he should have dragged it out longer, but a long, hard war is what’s needed to pacify critics.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 20, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t have time to gas this time, so that worry was never assuaged.
If you rewatch the Coleman fight, Shogun looked tired after the first three minutes. If you rewatch the Forrest fight, he was tired after the first round. After the fight with Liddell was over, he looked like he was ready to go the full fifteen minutes. Anyone will tell you that confidence is key and that’s exactly what Shogun got back in spades against Liddell. Confidence in not only his ability to finish top level 205’ers but confidence in his legs again. The guy had great torque and whip on his leg kicks. That first one he threw was flat out brutal. Nasty good.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
I agree with FlyByKnight here… everyone is writing off the win as “oh, it was against Chuck who already had one foot in the grave.” Well, no, 80% of people thought Chuck was coming back in top form even though he’s on the wrong side of 35.
Why can we give Shogun credit for TKO’ing a legend with the pressure on as high as it gets. Its not his fault he finished the Iceman off in less than a round and didnt get to show the keyboard warriors his improved cardio.
His leg kicks DID look crisp and painful! He was throwing strikes from all kinds of angles, he took Chuck down. He did everything he should have done and almost no one thought he would. There’s no reason to say, “well one fight doesnt prove anything, we’ll see after another fight or two…” It did prove a lot.
1. Rua can perform and bring it with the pressure at its peak.
2. He can evlove and adapt to the changing MMA game. Something Wandy (who i love dearly), Crocop, Soko and others just havnt done since making their way stateside. He didnt need stomps or soccer kicks to beat the UFC’s all-time icon.
I see wayyyyy too much, “he hasnt proved anything yet, it was just an old ass Chuck.” and not nearly enough, “damn, 2 blown knees, a million haters claiming he’s done at 27 yrs old, guys saying he’ll gas just from walking to the cage… he proved ’em wrong, pretty damn impressive!”
by MMArazorback on Apr 20, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
80% of people thought Chuck was coming back in top form? Where is that at?
I thought he was going to come back lackluster, but use his style of range countering to win it. I, by no means, figured it was going to be a top form Chuck Liddell.
The whole point here is that Shogun needs one more impressive performance. Saying he’s BACK and is showing his PRIDE days is absurd, and I’ve heard this argument a lot today. I’,m not saying that you’re saying that, but that’s why this has come up. At 27 years old, Shogun has the time.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 20, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
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