The Strange Parallels of Anderson Silva and Roy Jones, Jr.
by Luke Thomas on Apr 20, 2009 10:18 AM EDT
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21 comments
Jordan Breen is befuddled by the overlap and wonders why Silva is aping his boxing idol:
And now, after the Cote and Leites bouts, Silva has taken another step in mirroring Jones. The charm of that creativity has now worn out. Because of Silva's stature as the sport's pound-for-pound best, just taking on tough challengers is no longer acceptable, just as Jones collecting world titles from Lou Del Valle, Reggie Johnson and Eric Harding was met with disappointment.
...
Virtually none of Silva's opponents have been able to hit him, not unlike the prime Jones. Fans and pundits alike expect truly great fighters to brutally dispatch opponents who have nothing for them, especially those great fighters with offensive acumen like Silva and Jones. Instead, Jones willfully opted to win lopsided unanimous decisions by 12- to 14-point scorecard margins, doing just enough to embarrass his opposition, throwing 40-some punches a round against dead-to-rites opponents. Silva, likewise, has succeeded only in making Cote and Leites inert, leg kicking and foot punching, while ultimately doing more damage to his own reputation than his foes’.
And, much like a prime Jones, Silva seems to care very little for the contempt that his last two performances have engendered. Their motivations may differ -- there was always discussion about Jones' fear for his own mortality, having seen fellow boxers die in the ring, a reality that doesn't present itself as vividly to Silva -- but Silva's insistence that “people don't get what happens in here” echoes Jones' refrains of the past.
Because both men are owners of vibrant, colorful personalities, it seemed natural that people expected them to be preoccupied with entertainment and accommodation. Instead, Jones was an antagonist of the media, while Silva meets his criticism with self-assured indifference.
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i dont understand what there is to be befuddled about. there’s no dariusz around that he’s dodging. closest comparison is okami, and he isn’t fighing him because the promoters of both (which is dana, joe, and the fertittas) are shook about it being a “bad fight”. theyre not offering him the right opponent at light heavyweight, with that definitively being someone he can body up for big money, or someone that might actually body him for really really big money. he’s probably thinking they’ll give him gsp and i bet he laughs inside every other day about how he’s going to remind people why weight classes exist and pocket a lot of money doing it.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
one other thing; if he had finished leites, so what? you aren’t gonna break the mainstream showing nothing but hopeless tomato cans no one cares about in executions. they at least need to make people care about the tomato can first. they probably hope like hell bisping wins against henderson for that alone. i mean he can’t win but at least people know who he is and someone might pay to see that.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was not dodging Dariusz...
they weren’t willing to A) fight in the US which is where the fight was valuable or B) take the appropriate cut considering that Roy was the money in the fight. Just to…clear that up
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fight was plenty valuable in germany where dariusz made 7 figures every time out on national tv. roy could have gone over there any time he wanted but instead he talked about his belts (which were stolen from dariusz) and kept repeating how he got screwed in seoul. to make up for it, he did talk about all the awesome guys he was gonna fight, but then he never fought any of them. if you want to draw a parallel to anderson, i guess thats like him talking about fighting at 205 but only facing irvin.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude...
the best boxer in the world should not be fighting in Germany. I’m sorry but between hometown scoring (which is a big problem in Europe) and the fact that Dariusz needed to come to America if he was that serious about wanting the fight…dude has no leg to stand on.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was certainly some shady crap around that fight not being made (with the sanctioning bodies), but Jones had a legit reason to not want to fight in Germany. More then than now (although it’s hardly perfect now), hometown scoring and bias was an issue in Europe. Sven Ottke got some real gifts over his undefeated career, particularly the Robin Reid debacle.
Jones was also the star, and frankly whether people like it or not the biggest of the big fights happen in the US. Would I have liked to have seen Jones and Michalczewski fight? Yes, absolutely. I think Jones would’ve beaten him handily. But that situation is sort of like Mosley-Mayweather: I don’t think either of them ever really wanted to fight the other guy. It’s a two-way street, IMO.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 20, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was no shady crap regarding the sanctioning bodies and making the fight. the shady crap was dariusz losing two of his belts almost immediately after winning them. if that happened to an american, there would be outrage. since it happened to a polish guy fighting in germany, oh well, he should have just fought in america for 1/5 the money, then maybe they wouldn’t have immediately stripped him.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I meant about the bodies; I wrote it out poorly. You’re absolutely 100% right about that point.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 20, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the best soccer players and the best race car drivers are all competing primarily in europe; why can’t the best boxer in the world fight in his home country? america’s not special. its just a place, and if you sell more tickets and make more money somewhere else, demanding that someone fight here for legitimacy is crapola. maybe americans need to get over themselves? its not germany’s fault dariusz beat american double belt holder virgil hill nearly retarded long before roy jones put him down. you wouldn’t demand that wladimir klitschko fight eddie chambers at the msg theater to prove that he’s the best heavyweight in the world, would you?
“hometown scoring” being a european problem is a ridiculous excuse too. you should ask felix sturm how that goes.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you wouldn’t demand that wladimir klitschko fight eddie chambers at the msg theater to prove that he’s the best heavyweight in the world, would you?
No offense, but comparing Eddie Chambers to prime Roy Jones is ridiculous.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 20, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not comparing eddie chambers to roy jones, just that the idea that boxers must fight in america to be legit is ridiculous. abraham fights in germany against top european and worldwide competition in a division largely dominated by guys who don’t fight in america. he came to america and blew up miranda when people doubted him. guess what? people still talk about him like he’s dodging pavlik and fighting bums while pavlik defends his titles against the murderers row of lockett, rubio, and mora. roy could have made the fight but gave a whole lot of excuses. he kept on giving them too about everyone from hopkins to buster douglas.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the point is...
Klitschko is OBVIOUSLY the best guy in the world at his weight. Chambers has to come to him. just like Roy was OBVIOUSLY the best guy in the world at ANY weight and there was no reason for him to go to Germany.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
americanized view of what happened. dariusz demolished virgil hill and became the undisputed world light heavyweight champion when roy had no belts and no claim. he lost them not in the ring but within 30 days over the kind of sanctioning body bs that people cry rivers about and blame the death of boxing over. he then collects them after they’re scattered. you want a parallel to that in boxing today, you had the lightweight division up until campbell showed up 4 lbs over. campbell was never really champion and never in a position where his demands had to have been met. same with dariusz: he was the rightful champ, and frankly he was a bigger draw internationally. roy took safe money rather than go challenge him and dariusz ended up doing the same, but morally dariusz was not wrong to do so. why should he have been? he was the dude that got screwed out of belts, now he needed to go fight for them again in someone else’s backyard for less money?
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude...
I don’t blame Dariusz and he was the “true” champ. I don’t care about that though. Even if he had all the belts still it wouldn’t have made sense for Roy to go to Germany. SC has it pretty well on the head, Dariusz wasn’t going to give up the big money to go to the states and Roy had no reason to go to Germany (especially at a period when European scoring was pretty shady)
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again, its an excuse: well, he wouldn’t have made tons more money, so he didnt do it. well, anderson silva doesnt make any more money getting challenged or whatever by a jardine than he does fighting leites, so if you’re anderson, why do you care about taking the bigger challenge if the reward lacks what he considers adequacy? now whos fault does that become: andersons or the ufcs? roy takes the blame because he was self promoted.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know who’s talking about AA like he’s dodging Pavlik because I try to stay away from the stupider opinions out there. Nobody whose opinion I respect in the least thinks Arthur is ducking Kelly. Everyone knows that’s a money/draw/promotional issue and nothing more, but anyway they’re probably going to scrap in November if/when Kelly beats Mora.
I don’t think boxers have to fight in America to be “legit”; still, Wlad-Chambers is a whole other ball of wax compared to Jones-Dariusz, that’s all. Wlad is definitely the top fighter and the easy bigger draw. Jones was a big draw in the States and considered the #1 fighter in the world. Dariusz was a big draw in Germany and considered a genuine threat to Jones. Again, I really think Jones-Dariusz was two guys that weren’t going to concede. It either happened on Dariusz’ turf (not possible in Jones’ mind), or Dariusz took way less money to do it in America (not possible in his mind). Neither of them were willing to take a backseat to the other. It wasn’t just Roy that could’ve made the fight but didn’t.
Jones-Hopkins II was actually ready to go for 03/11/06, but it fell apart over money. I refuse to blame Roy singularly for that one, either; Bernard isn’t exactly the easiest guy to negotiate with. He just insulted the hell out of everyone on the planet by offering Tomasz Adamek a $500,000 flat fee for a fight. Those two talked a ton and I think it’s another case where neither dude really wanted to fight the other guy again.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 20, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in 2006 it was already way too late. i’m talking the 60/40 debacle of years prior. there’s always an excuse with roy. always. that’s why the only heavyweight he ever actually fought was ruiz. people crap on johnny but he took that fight for no guaranteed money. zero. no other fighter was willing to take that financial risk.
i just find this sort of “well it didn’t happen for financial reasons so its dariusz’s fault” stuff that I see brookhouse kicking out to be ridiculous, and i see its application to silva equally so. silva hasn’t talked up fighting rampage only to back out at the last second claiming he’s too big. if they want silva to fight a big name at 205, then pay him big money, or pay big money to guys outside the UFC. otherwise, the ufc has no right to complain and bitch that he’s not in great back and forth bouts when all they give him are the same 5-6 mediocre guys. trying to shame him into a fight with some b-list light heavyweight probably isn’t gonna be an effective motivator, you dig?
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did I say that?
The fight was more valuable for the sport of boxing in America. I get that it may have gotten more money for Dariusz in Germany. But lets be honest…if Dariusz wanted the fight it had to be in America. That’s the score. Jones was the best boxer in the world…sorry but in that position you have to come to him. Just like Tyson in his prime wouldn’t have had any reason to go fight guys in Europe. You come to the best fighter…you don’t make them come to you.
It’s both of their faults…but I’m not going to concede the point that the fight made no sense in Germany for Roy
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think it was more valuable here. dariusz wasnt a big name, abc exposure or not, and unless they spent a lot of time building it, it would have bombed. no one except the most hardcore of fans stateside cared that it didnt happen, really. what people did care about is that no one was ever positioned to be a threat to roy that he actually fought, whether hopkins, jirov, calzaghe (back 9 years ago), holyfield, byrd, etc.
by nigelzackit on Apr 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones-Johnson
I’m not defending a lot of the fights Roy took (a few were downright ludicrous), but Reggie Johnson was a top fighter and Jones turned in one of the most utterly dominant 12-round performances I’ve ever seen that night. Reggie had five losses coming in — one early in his career that doesn’t really mean much, a SD to James Toney, a really close decision to John David Jackson, and two highly debatable SDs to Jorge Fernando Castro in Argentina. Reggie was no big star, but he was a really good fighter and Jones beat the crap out of him.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 20, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention...
prior to the loss to Tarver in the rematch Jones had won 11 decisions which included Tarver, Ruiz (at heavyweight), Johnson, Toney, Hopkins, McCallum…which were all legit guys to take to a decision. Hell when he went 10 rounds with Jorge Castro Roy was a young fighter. Castro was there specifically because he was durable and was supposed to take Roy into the later rounds. Castro has 144 fights in his career and has been stopped twice. He shouldn’t have taken Del Valle to decision and same with Telesco but shit…two MAYBE three times someone hung for a decision when they shouldn’t in a boxer’s career is hardly a big flashing red light.
He shouldn’t have taken fights with some guys on his record, period. But the truth is most of the bums he fought he ran through.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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