Ain't No Sunshine - Critiquing Anderson Silva and Thales Leites
by Mike Fagan on Apr 19, 2009 5:57 AM EDT
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Like a movie that just doesn't live up to the hype, Anderson Silva left fans discontented and discouraged following UFC 97. Coming off the unsatisfying resolution of his fight with Patrick Cote at UFC 90, many expected to see a fighter energized and motivated to quickly work towards a finish.
Instead, Silva continued where he left off with Cote. Silva fought a patient, intelligent fight refusing to follow Leites to the floor while economizing the output of strikes standing.
However, one must question whether Silva deserves the inevitable criticisms of his latest performance. After rewatching tonight's main event, I've come to the following conclusions.
1. The Silva/Leites fight isn't as bad as the initial viewing. Now, the fight will not be mistaken for a classic by anyone. But I think a lot of the disappointment centers around the fact that Silva couldn't (or wouldn't) finish Leites. When watching the fight a second time and accepting the absence of a finish, the bout becomes a lot more interesting. Why?
2. Silva's incredibly creative. If you pay attention, Silva throws a plethora of strikes I can't say I've seen before. The most obvious and effective is the side kick to the knee. Silva began throwing this in round 3 using it to wear down and stifle any attempt from Leites to shoot. In the more-style-than-substance file, we saw Silva throw punches to Leites' legs, throw a standing hammer fist, bring in a soccer-influenced behind-the-heel kick, and a comically punching Leites' dangling guard foot.
3. Leites refused to engage after round 2. When Silva started to open up and unload strikes in round 3, Leites reverted to a strategy of attempting to pull guard any time Silva began to mount an attack. You could see the frustration in Silva's countenance grow with each successive attempt. Whatever your opinion regarding Silva's urgency to finish the fight, it must be agreed that the ability of a fighter to finish worsens if his opponent makes every attempt to avoid punishment. Chuck Liddell said it best in the post fight presser:
He was attacking him the whole time. It is a frustrating fight for a striker when a guy every time you go to hit him he falls to his back.
There's no doubt that this is Silva's most underwhelming performance since entering the Octagon and is probably the most underwhelming title fight in recent memory. Silva's personal performance, however, is not the "shameful" display that I've heard some people make it out to be. Given an opponent who clearly gave up any notion of victory and just avoided an embarassing knockout, I can forgive the Spider's perceived transgressions. Silva must understand, however, that repeated performances like tonight will only draw the ire of fans.
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first post WOOT
after watching the fight i figured silva was just playing around until he gets dropped from contract and signs a fight with roy jones jr, would be epic….epically painful for silva. but i digest, silva looks like he is trying to “create” in the octagon instead of focusing. i hope this is part of some bigger plan he has for the fans. as of right now, it looks as though he doesn’t care or he is trying to transcend some sort of fighters theology. either way, we as fans are left with a champion, arguably one of the greatest fighters to have worn a five fingered glove, and he wants to protect his record and/or has gotten bored. how exciting…..
good luck in life!
More so shameful matchmaking. Counter-puncher vs grappler, with neither willing to entertain each others domain, will finish like this more often than not.
by -Sam on Apr 19, 2009 7:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know – the grapplers I know tend to… grapple, even if it means (gasp) you get hit on the way in. Leites got this fight because Marquardt fucking piledrove him, and it’s a damn shame.
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Sam
And with the article. Look, Silva can’t make Leites engage in the fight. It takes two to tango and after the first takedown by Leites he realized that his best shot at winning, the submission, wasn’t going to happen. So he was in there to survive. Silva will not break out of his game plan and start attacking just because the fans are booing. And he shouldn’t be expected to IMO. I never understood why fighters would break out of their game plan to make things “more exciting for the fans.” Sure, they will be excited but what happens when you start fighting to please the fans is you start losing. That is if you break out of your game plan/style to do it. I do think that Silva could have beat him anyway he wanted to last night but I also think these last two fights were somewhat of a protest to Dana. Silva knows these two guys aren’t in his class and he somewhat treated them as sparring partners because he had nothing to fear from them. If he fights Maia, Hendo, Silva, or Bisping next he won’t put in the same type of performance. Another factor in this fight is that I think he was being a bit merciful to his fellow Brazilian.
I don’t know if I still want to see maia vs a.Silva after yesterday. Anyway I wished A.Silva with is BJJ black belt would be confident enough to attack lietes on the ground. Maybe not in BJJ but with ground & pound. He did it only by the end when things were desperate and was quite successful. A fighter refusing to fight on the feet is disappointing, but a fighter with a BJJ black belt refusing to fight on the ground is as much of a disappointment to me.
GSP would have killed lietes on the spot if he had tried shit like laying on the ground with him.
I dont know if I want to see Leites fight anyone after last night. Everyone talks about how disappointing Silva was, Leites refused to fight and made it so boring. I understand that you dont want to trade with Anderson, but seriously, those pathetic attempts to pull guard everytime Anderson would engage really ruined Leites as a fighter I want to watch
by GroundNPound561 on Apr 19, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
He should have followed him to the ground
I mean, he already had a greasy chest. I love all of the excuses that people are going to make for Silva. The only real outcome of that fight for me is that it made me a GSP fan for the first time. GSP will murder this fool.
My reaction to the this fight…
O_O
Also, Silva just dropped off my #1 p4p list. The best fighter in the world does not fight like that. If hes the best fighter in the world he should not hesitate to take the fight anywhere. Theres a difference between fighting smart and fighting the way he did last night. IMO it was shameful and the great fans of Montreal deserve an apology.
1. Fedor
2. GSP
3. Miguel Torres
4. Silva
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
so if gsp fought a guy like maia, and he doesn't want to go to the ground.. he'd also drop from your pfp list?
so in your opinion, the best pound for pound fighter should fight stupid and play to his opponents strengths, even if he knows he clearly has a bigggggggg advantage in one area?
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha thats the thing, GSP would go to the ground. Why? Because thats also one of his strengths. So you think Silva fought smart? He should have the confidence to go to the ground and do some gnp. Maia/Silva has the potential to be even more boring than Silva/Leites. I 100% doubt Joe Silva makes that fight. Plain and simple, Silva needs to go to LHW.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 19, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
you're missing the point and you didn't even answer my question..
Not having a ground game, sure, that could be a negative criteria.. but, not playing to your opponents strengths shouldn’t be a negative criteria in anything..
Frank shamrock striking with cung le shouldn’t be a plus criteria because he was willing to stand with a superior striker..
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Silva fought a smart fight and def. did not play to his opponents stregnths, but he was incredibly boring and didn’t really show anything that justifies keeping him at #1…I think that was the point
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
for someone with a name like that you sure talk about it a lot.. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s difficult to make fun of it without mentioning it. Kind of like how we want to fight terrorism without using the term “terrorist”.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Point being, Fedor, GSP, Miguel Torres would all take the fight anywhere, regardless of where they prefer it. lol at you using Frank and Cung as examples. They are no where near the top p4p fighters in there world so thats irrelevant.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 19, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
the point is, if you fight by playing to your strengths and not your opponents, you shouldn't get demerits for it..
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Both guys deserve to be blamed but Silva should be better than that. Thats all I’m saying. I’m still a fan but it was a huge disappointment for me. Dude has to move up to LHW already. Enough of this dancing and shruggs and putting his hands on his hips.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 19, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
He fell off of your #1 P4P list because he totally outclassed his opponent and stuck to his gameplan. That is definitely deserved. When GSP fights Silva, if he does, do you really think at any point he is going to want to stand with him? No way. And if he does do what you want him to do, and keep the fight anywhere, he will get knocked out. If Serra can do it to GSP, anyone can. After that, where does he fall in your P4P rankings?
i've been saying this since the fight..
IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO.. leites didn’t want to fight.. he knew he was behind on the score cards but he didn’t throw strikes and he just kept flopping to the floor and kept on butt scooting even if he knows silva won’t go there…
i just see it like the second barrera/pacquiao fight.. Barrera just wanted to “retire” without getting KOed so he just didn’t engage, didn’t try to do anything drastic to pull of a victory even if he knew he was ayyy behind the score cards..
You can’t fault quarry for not finishing kalib because kalib did not want to engage.. It’s that simple..
every time silva engages.. FLOP—>buttscoot—>stand—>wait—>repeat..
Let’s stop right there with this comparison.
Kalib ran backward, there is no fight possible. Lietes layed on the ground, proposing a ground fight wich A.Silva refused. I’m sure he was right to do so, but I hoped he had what it take to just try some ground and pound. Like I said he was quite successful in the end, that’s why I think he lacked confidence in his own ground game.
Why would he go to the ground and risk losing when he knew he could win standing? That’s like Frank standing with Cung Le. He’s stupid and would rather “entertain” than win. All the people that cry about Lesnar being in the UFC after being in the fake WWE are the same people crying that Silva should entertain. This is not scripted and you aren’t guaranteed to have an exciting bout. If you want that then go watch wrestling. Silva could have done more but Leites could have done ALOT more to make this an entertaining fight.
by dedstrk316 on Apr 19, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Silva could have done more but Leites could have done ALOT more to make this an entertaining fight.
recd for this line!
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Flopping to the floor and pulling guard is the grappling version of the Kalib Starnes backward marathon.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Apr 19, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, well, well, gentlemen....
Anderson Silva put on another “dominating” performance, “destroying” another top tier fighter who obviously deserved a title shot via 48-47 decision by one of the judges, and proved yet again why he is clearly the #1 “p4p” fighter in the world. Everytime he gets in the cage my palms sweat because the man is just such a dominant fighter he puts on a human highlight reel. Nobody else can stand still in front of a tomato can with his hands on his knees bringing the crowd to their feet for 25 minutes quite like the Spider. He is clearly the “p4p” best in the world given how he continues to challenge himself fight after fight while Fedor KO’s no-names such as former UFC champions.
I called it last week- another snoozer.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions
Anderson destroyed another opponent worst than GSP did in any of his fights. And yet, the detractors are out for blood. It’s his first decision in a long time and people are dropping him off the P4P list even though GSP has more decision wins in more even-sided fights than Anderson. People have no problem keeping GSP #1 even though he had a loss a couple fights back. AS has been undefeated and dominated every single opponent he’s fought in his last 9 fights. It just proves that there are more GSP fans out there than Anderson Silva fans.
Anderson dominated this fight while fighting a smart fight. Get a grip people!
So AS has destroyed all of his opponents, but GSP’s destruction of BJ, Hughes, Serra the 2nd time etc don’t count at all because [insert your excuse here].
I love both Anderson Silva and GSP, why can’t you like both of them for what they are worth? You brought in GSP hate for no reason.
lol
What makes you assume that GSP is even part of this conversation? The only difference between GSP and Silva, from a rankings standpoint, is that GSP got beat up by Matt Serra. I think it’s pretty obvious that neither one of them is #1.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
The bottom line
The bottom line is the Silva who fought Leben, Franklin, Henderson, and Marquardt would have never put on that kind of performance. Freaking dancing around, throwing his hands up in frustration, throwing punches to the leg and foot…..this is a different Anderson Silva ladies and gentleman, and I don’t think he’s going anywhere.
And I’m CERTAINLY not going to pay $45 to see him next time. I’m definitely content with reading how creative Silva was and how it was all his opponents fault.
yeah…at the bar i was at, about a quarter of the people walked out after the Chuck fight, and another 25% walked out during the Silva fight.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
would someone tell me how this isn't cheating?
I was getting pissed while watching the fight last night (other than it was incredibly boring) seeing Silva throw front kicks to Leites’ knee. In the local mma circuit in my area, it specifically says in the rules that kicks to the front of the knee are illegal. I read the UFC’s rules this morning, and apparently the UFC does not have such a rule. That is super-dangerous and the UFC should probably reconsider. The other thing i noticed was Anderson Silva’s blantant use (again) ove vertical elbows. I’ve seen him do this a number of times before. Per the official UFC rules:
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
So can someone explain why it is ok for Anderson Silva to strike downward using the point of the elbow multiple times and none of the UFC ref’s ever say anything? Is my interpretation of a “downward spiking verticle elbow” wrong?
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions
how this isn't cheating?
that’s simple.. You already answered it..
the UFC does not have such a rule
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
please keep reading...
Per the official UFC rules:
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
When? When he was on his back?
Downward means going up to down where the floor is. When he was on his back, those elbows were going sideways.
Where are the Machida fans?
This fight was right up their alley. Anderson was counter-striking and avoiding nearly all damage. He did get taken down but got right back up. With the way sooooo many people talk about how much they love to watch Machida fight, I’m surprised Anderson is getting this kind of reaction.
Here is one
I can only speak for myself, but my expectations of Machida are lower. The difference between Machida and Silva is that Silva has a duty to live up to all the fake-hype about being the greatest fighter on earth. Nobody makes that claim about Machida (yet), therefore he isn’t really expected to put on a highlight reel performance. If the UFC uses him in the future to replace Silva as their attempt to legitimize why they don’t care/need the greatest fighter on earth under UFC contract, he will also catch a lot of crap.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Apr 19, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Silva looked like one the all-time greats, Tim Sylvia, last night.
Spinning out solid gold, like Rumpelstiltskin.
Agreed. I still like Spider though.
Yeah, who got the final Death Blow? 'Cause I thought that Hawaiian guy had it comin' to him. - C. K.
by monkeyfightclub! on Apr 19, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand.
The few times that Silva was on top of Leites on the ground, he was hammering the shit out of him. Had Silva dove into guard once…it would’ve been over very shortly, with Silva as the victor.
His flashy kicks were nice, but they didn’t do anything to end the fight.
Very disappointed in Anderson Silva right now.
Fail
This article is pretentious. The author is trying to show that he understands/appreciates the fight on a deeper level than the rest of us. “Well actually… it was a sophisticated technical ballet of violence with Shakespearean nuances”
Um… No. Did you watch the fight?
Silva’s performance was awful. Best P4P, he is not. Arrogant prick, apparently so.
That’s just Fagan’s style, I guess. Don’t you read his weekly fighter quote post? He basically just fighter bashes, under the cover of, “Well…everyone gets it equally.”
Nothing against it, just not my thing.
thats fagan bashing right there. haha. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry Mike...
Anderson has a certain level of responsibility to engage when the other guy won’t. He fought like he was scared to engage, passing up on several moments where if he “went for it” he’d have at the very worst LOOKED like he was trying something. His BJJ is good enough and he was landing enough damage on the ground that he could have easily tested out playing the top game a bit longer and inflicted ore damage. He had Leites against the cage several times and could have thrown some punches but instead stuck to the leg kicks and dancing. It was a weak effort by both guys and a terrible fight…and Anderson bears at least half the responsibility here. He deserves the criticism because he was totally in “fight not to lose” mode.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
Dissappointing.....
Why was the fight not stopped when Leites got blatently poked in the eye 2X.
This fight was boring to watch, but it was neither fighter was willing to deviate from their game plan. Silva wanted to stay up, Leites wanted to go to the ground. Both fighters were reluctant to go out of their comfort zone.
I was kind of shocked when Silva walked into the ring, clear as day, wiped the vaseline off of his face and commenced to rubbing it all over his chest and arms. Man…….. that was kind of shady. Not that it affected anything, but in the light of what happened with GSP and all, it was kind of a slap in the face.
In my opinion, Silva needs to move up in weight to get some competition.
I think
at this point in time and with the caliber of his last two opponents, Silva is more worried about keeping his belt and legacy intact. Look at how long it will take for GSP to erase the Serra loss even AFTER he destroyed him in the rematch. Imagine what would happen to Silva if he had lost to Cote or Leites. Of course I, as a fan, don’t appreciate it very much but I do understand it.
This is the first time I will make an argument for Fedor over Anderson but Fedor fights cans the same way he fights top contenders. That probably doesn’t mean much but I thought I’d put it out there.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
Anyone still hanging on to the Serra loss is a dope...
I’m sorry but I thought we’ve established that in MMA with small gloves sometimes you get caught. He avenged the loss pretty clearly…there is hardly anything worth hanging on to with that fight…
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That's how I think too
I’m just stating how people view it. Everytime you want to make a case for GSP as the top P4P fighter, the Serra loss comes up..
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Apr 19, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not worth bringing it up at all then. He has looked like a brand new fighter, much more vicious than before.
Hughes, Serra, Fitch, Penn all took the worst beatings of their lives after that loss.
I was worth binging up to make my point in the first post.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Apr 19, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I was at the Q&A on Friday
St. Pierre said the Serra loss was the best thing that ever happened to him. It motivated him, focused him, and made him hungrier for the win. I gotta say, his record since leans towards it being true.
by inadvertentgroinstrike on Apr 20, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m hoping that Silva isn’t going the route of Sylvia when he was champ and just did enough to win. I highly doubt that because the last two fighters he faced were just not willing to go at it with him. Put him up against Bisping or Hendo or Wandy and if he does the same thing as his last two fights then I would say he’s more interested in keeping the belt than really fighting.
i think if bisping was there, we’d see a very entertaining battle.. hendo would just be a repeat of what happened.. the wandy fight would be surely exciting, but surely one sided too..
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 19, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the point I'm trying to make
Silva’s most unimpressive wins were against his weakest opponents since becoming champion (minus maybe Lutter). I agree that if you tossed him someone like Bisping (not sure yet if he’s better than Cote/Leites, if gets past Hendo he certainly makes a case for it) or Wandy (or even Marquardt), we’d see a totally different fight. I agree with weo that a Hendo rematch would probably go the same way.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Apr 19, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
A. Silva is a counter-puncher
Just like in boxing, it takes a certain kind of style(straight forward, aggressive) to make a counter-puncher look good.
Guys have watched the tape on Silva. They aren’t gonna stay in the pocket w/him. Bisping definitely wouldn’t. He wouldn’t stay in the pocket w/Leben.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
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