People may be underestimating Shogun
It seems that from the opinions of the pros, to the opinions of MMA commentators and fans, that Chuck is a prohibitive favourite in this fight. Many people have written Shogun off based on his last 2 (admittedly poor) fights in the UFC and the fact that stylistically this is meant to be a bad fight for Shogun.
Addressing the first issue, people have debated how much of an effect his ACL injury had on his conditioning, so I'm reluctant to make definitive statements. What I will say is that with the rehabbing involved with such an injury, which I believe occurred twice within a period of 18 months or so, it certainly would have hampered his strength and conditioning programme, even if this was not the only reason for his lack of conditioning. It's also fairly likely that he underestimated both of his opponents, which is not a surprise; almost everyone thought he would win those fights easily - no doubt himself included.
Looking at those fights in any different way than above, by suggesting that Shogun may be in decline or that his performances in Pride were enhanced by drugs is plausible but I think unlikely. At only 27 and having absorbed not an excessive amount of punishment in his career, there is no reason why Shogun should be in any type of decline. Indeed, there is no reason why with the right training and motivation Shogun should not improve in the future. The issue of drugs is certainly more sketchy and to address it as a reason for his performances would just be speculation on my part so I'll leave it alone.
To discuss it stylistically, people seem to be downplaying Shogun's striking skills significantly. While he has a very solid grappling game, his striking and top game are his most offensive weapons so to assume that Shogun's only chance of winning this fight is to take Chuck down (which as we know, time and again, has proven to be so difficult) is inaccurate. As the Jackson camp realised, the way to beat Chuck is to outstrike him. People also say that without the knockout power in his hands that Evans and Jackson have standing will be a dangerous place for Shogun. It will be, but Shogun has a solid chin and people were saying the same things before Jardine fought Chuck. People have also said that Shogun's aggressive Muay Thai style should work well for Chuck's counter-punching style. I think this is also debatable. Going back to Pride when Chuck fought Rampage for the first time, Rampage was extremely aggressive in his striking style against Chuck and ended up dominating the standup. In Chuck's more recent fight against Jardine, Jardine was able to utilise leg kicks effectively, which no doubt will also be a significant part of Shogun's standing weaponry. The point many people have made that Shogun may struggle to dominate the clinch, which tended in Pride to be one of his main strengths, seems reasonable, but as stated above, this isn't necessairly his only means of winning on the feet.
Like a lot of fights it's not hard to imagine this fight going either way. Perhaps Chuck will show that he hasn't necessairly declined but that there were simply holes in his game that needed to be filled. Who knows, perhaps Chuck will incorporate the takedowns and elements of ground work he has been training at ATT - it's certainly possible - but come tonight it won't surprise me if the much younger Shogun is the one who has shown the greatest improvement out of the two from their previous fights and comes away with the decision win or TKO.
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21 comments
Comments
yeah, I put my (virtual) money on Shogun. I like these odds. There’s no way is gonna gaz out like in the Coleman fight.
by DrTopo on Apr 18, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would have thought...
…that there would be no way he’d gas out like in the Coleman fight when he was IN the Coleman fight.
What’s he using for cardio? The Wii Fit?
If you see Mark Coleman in person, drop $5 on the floor and watch the fun as he tries in vain to bend down and pick it up.
by Ozzz on Apr 18, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun has NEVER had good cardio. Once again, watch the Lil Nog and Nakamura fights – the only two times he went out of the first round – and see him a heaving mess.
by godzillad on Apr 18, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
I think a lot of people confuse pace with gas tank.
Shogun always set a torrid pace in Pride and, much like a prime Wanderlei, he overwhelmed people with it. However, on the rare occasions that someone survived the opening stanza, Shogun was not able to keep that pace up.
Unfortunately, in the UFC, he has shown neither pace nor cardio. He has looked sluggish from the first minute of both fights and only got slower as things progressed. However, I think a lot of his pacing problems in the UFC are in his head. He is fighting too cautiously. If/when he gets over that mental hurdle, he might return to some semblance of his 2005 form.
by Steve4192 on Apr 18, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun WILL WIN, here is why...
Liddell is older and everyone is forgetting just how badly he has been beaten in his last fights. Shogun will take him down and submit him in the 1st or he will get a decision.
by Rensokuken on Apr 18, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Greg Jackson dismantled him in the Jardine fight and Rashad lost the entire fight up until he decapitated Chuck.
I think you’re putting too much detriment on age instead of reality.
by godzillad on Apr 18, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun has sick leg kicks. If he’s learned anything from Chuck’s recent fights, he’ll slow Chuck down from the beginning. If he can slow Chuck’s feet and sap a little power from his hands, he can get inside and land knees. Then we will see if his ability to stop a take down, or pop up immediately, has diminished.
There's a WAMMA belt in my Cracker Jacks!
by Drewplata on Apr 18, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How do you beat Chuck? You circle right, away from his overhand right power. That and you throw pitty-pat leg kicks that keep him thinking. If he takes you down, big deal. Not like it matters. Legs are longer than arms so just keep Liddell at bay with leg kick after leg kick since he’s dumb enough to not check any.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on Apr 18, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remind me again what the counter is to a leg kick?
Oh yeah.
The overhand right.
If you are going to leg kick Chuck, you had better be one elusive son of a bitch. Chuck has made a career out of eating the kick and tearing the head off of the guy who threw it with his overhand right. Jardine got away with it because he is so damn herky-jerky that he never winds up in the same place twice. His goofy style makes his leg kicks difficult to counter. I’m not sure Shogun has that kind of elusiveness with his leg kicks.
by Steve4192 on Apr 18, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You were saying?
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on Apr 19, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it’s so easy why does Liddell have any wins at all?
by godzillad on Apr 18, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s just hard for me to expect much from Shogun, given his most recent performances. Granted, the surgeries and subsequent rehab may have played largely into the way he fought. I’ve just got to see more out of him. Is he, in fact, close to 100% physically? I hope that Shogun looks better than ever, but I have to see some evidence (in a fight) that he’s back to the form he exhibited in Pride.
by Cannon Jacques on Apr 18, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brother he is the exact same fighter in the UFC as he is in PRIDE. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt in the Coleman fight but he lost to Forrest the exact same way he lost to Babalu four years earlier.
by godzillad on Apr 18, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not surprisingly the opinions on here seem far more balanced. Seems people here are much more 50/50 about who is going to win, while on Sherdog it seems like 80/20 or more.
I think this is an extremely motivating fight for both fighters, but for Shogun who hasn’t seemed as committed in recent fights, it really gives an incentive to come in at his best. Chuck doesn’t have quite the same incentive – partly because he’s expected to win and make another run at the title.
It reminds me of when they gave him Rashad. I was positive Rashad would win as he kept on getting better, while Chuck at the very least was not. Shogun is likely to make big improvements.
Going to be a good fight though, and hopefully a win-win in that whoever wins rejuvenates their career.
by wrens on Apr 18, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Most people predicted that Frank was going to kill Nick Diaz as well.
See what happened to those predictions? I was telling everyone that Nick had a GREAT chance at winning and would be bigger than Frank, but people failed to realize it.
I don’t think it is such a one sided fight here either, but the UFC is definitely pushing hard damaged goods in Chuck and Shogun. Most people are biting though, to my amazement.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Apr 18, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good job wrens
Here’s to the new (old) Shogun.

by Flying Gogoplata on Apr 19, 2009 3:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Was impressed by Shogun. I’ve never been a particularly big fan of his but he definitely looked rejuvenated last night.
by wrens on Apr 19, 2009 6:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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