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MMA Sabermetrics: Strength of Record

This has been an ongoing project for quite some time, and a lot more articles will likely be driven under the "MMA Sabermetrics" banner in the future. The intent behind these articles is to give fans an objective backing to many claims that analysts, fans, and bloggers have made in the past. It'll also give us a statistical look at certain aspects of MMA from not only a current snapshot of the overall landscape of the sport, but it can also include historical data as well. It should be pretty informative and get the minds of fans churning.

The first in this series will revolve around a statistic that I believe is very vital to those of you in the betting arena of MMA and also breaking down fights. It is the strength of schedule statistic. One of the ways to define this is to ask how you can compare two fighters who have never fought each other before. Most fans would subjectively look down their record and see the quality of wins, performances in fights, and their style matchups. While these will heavily outweight this statistic as it has attributes that don't come into the calculation, Strength of Schedule or Record (SOS) can give us a snapshot of the quality of wins a fighter has. It can also show us the weakness in their quality of wins vs. their record.

The calculation, in this case, was a replica of what many Football statisticians have been using for quite awhile, and it is modeled after the BCS SOS calculation and NCAA Ratings Index (Nothing to do with the rankings!). The calculation takes the Fighter's opponents win percentage + fighter's opponent's opponents win percentage and takes that average. This ensures that a fighter's SOS isn't simply because he fought guys who were 5-0, 6-0, 7-0, but those opponents fought 0-5, 0-6 easier opponents. I will be revamping the algorithms and trying different SoS calculations in the future as well. Most notably, this formula does include Fighter A vs. Opponent in the Opponent's Winning Percentage calculation, which is an ongoing debate as to whether it should be included or not. RIght now, most SoS calculations do not include it. For our purposes, it wouldn't affect the ratings very much because fighters do not have "seasons" like Football does.

In order to put more value on a fighter's direct opponents, the opponent's winning percentage is multiplied by a factor of 2 while the opponent's opponents winning percentage stays the same. These are then divided by 3. This puts more weight on the fighter's actual wins that their opponent's opponents wins.

The statistics below take into account that each fighter on the listing has fought in 2008. I didn't want to include older fighters who have went on to retire. It also filters out fighters who have only fought  10 or more fights, and it's been filtered by fighters that are likely not known to fans. It also only lists those fighters with a winning percentage above .500 or more wins than losses. We'll focus on fighters with losing records with a strong SoS later (i.e. a guy like Dong Sik Yoon).

Top20sos_medium  Top40sos_medium 


Take note that B.J. Penn tops the list. Penn has not only fought quality opponents over his career, but his opponents have also gained great records by fighting quality opponents as well. This easily puts Penn at the top of the list.

Some names you'll want to avoid in this listing as they aren't really relevant, and in later articles, we'll focus solely on UFC fighters and promotion's listings.

Obviously, some fighters are boosted by one opponent such as Rousimar Palhares. Dan Henderson's extensive MMA record and quality opponents he has faced has obviously boomed Palhares' statistic along with solid veterans like Negao and Acacio. Griffin has consistently taken on very good competition on his route to the top as well.

#53: Demian Maia - .6693 (10-0)

#55: Joachim Hansen  0.6680 19 - 7       

#56: Thiago Alves 0.6677 16 - 3     

#57: Patrick Cote 6612 0.6670 13 - 5                            

#63: Andrei Arlovski 270 0.6660 14 - 6     

66: Dan Henderson 195 0.6653 24 - 7                            

68: Wilson Gouveia 3070 0.6650 12 - 6                    

69: Martin Kampmann 5344 0.6647 15 - 2                            

71: Wagnney Fabiano 905 0.6643 12 - 1                                                       

Keep in mind, this is out of over 1300 active fighters who have fought in 2008. Here's some of the bottom trollers:

1311: Jason Reinhardt 0.4837 20 - 1                            

1301: Ronnie Mann 0.4907 16 - 1        

1288: Matt Veach 0.4990 11 - 0                            

1272: Ryan Thomas 0.5083 9 - 3                             

1202: Rich Crunkilton 0.5263 16 - 2                            

1196: John Hathaway 0.5267 10 - 0                            

1168: Paul Bradley 0.5347 10 - 0                            

1142: Stefan Struve 0.5390 16 - 3        
                    
1143: Dan Lauzon 0.5387 12 - 2         

1099: Tom Speer 0.5467 11 - 4

1094: Brock Larson 0.5477 252 

Some of the notables I wanted to point out were that of Brock Larson and Jason Reinhardt. This stat is a perfect example as to how it can expose a fighter's wins when coupled with the opponent's opponents winning percentage.

Larson may have a phenomenal record, but his opponents lack the quality wins to boost his SOS to even average levels. It's safe to say that Larson has had a much easier time building his record than most of the quality fighters that are in the UFC today. Reinhardt is another perfect example as well as he was hyped as this undefeated phenom before his loss to Joe Lauzon.

Even more impressive, even with weight on Larson and Reinhardt's actual wins, the opponent's opponents winning percentage drags their averages down, as it should.

I'll have a bell curve in place at some point, but many of the bigger names are in the mid-range. Fedor is roughly a .65 and Rashad Evans hovers at .6437. These are typical and don't really tell us much. They've fought some very great fighters and some very mediocre fighters in comparison to their record.

Overall Analysis

This is my first sampling of this data which spreads over nearly 60,000 - 80,000+ fights historically. The statistics displayed here are filtered currently, and while I tweak algorithms and create some more meaningful stats, this is a statistic that would have some meaning at a quick glance if compared to record.

If their SoS is high, but their record is mediocre, it could mean big things in terms of an upset if the style is right. If their SoS is high with a phenomenal record, they are likely one of the top fighters in the sport, and it's justified.

Low SoS with a great record normally means a stacked record full of opponents who either were terrible or fought opponents who were equally terrible. It basically means a low quality of fights.  Low SoS and a losing record obviously indicates some lesser skills.

Some of the next installments will elaborate on some other stats that have been put together here on BloodyElbow. I'll be looking at submissions percentages OVER the entire landscape and history of MMA vs. what Mike Fagan has done in getting as much as he could within his sample. He did a great job with the piece, but I'd love to see the real percentages when including an even broader base to see if Josh Gross's claims that submissions have dramatically went down is justified.

Any other stats that anyone wants to see? I'd love to hear some SoS stat suggestions as well. I'm going to be working on excluding fights in which the fighter the statistic is being calculated for is eliminated as it should be from other formulas, and I'm also looking at a hybrid formula.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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Wow...

Awesome post. Great work.

by Kaleb Kelchner on Apr 14, 2009 9:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks. It was some tough calculations in terms of molding the SQL to get what I wanted, and there are still malformations in the data. Some of the names in the top 50 probably wouldn’t be there if the calculation was used that eliminated some of the fights in which the calculated fighter took on opponent’s opponents. That’s the next step, and it should eliminate some of those fighters up there that are unknown, although those unknowns likely took on tougher competition than they were ready for.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

SQL is my forte. I can lend a hand if needed. Any kind of joining and drilling deep on fighters or ETL of data, I can assist.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some of your work ive seen is worthy of a grammy. Incredible stuff, sometimes its stuff ive always wanted to see but dont want to spend a week figuring it out.

by Rensokuken on Apr 14, 2009 9:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, a lot of the computer work takes out the tedious processes. Although, calculations are tough considering I need to track down problems. This is an ongoing small application as well, so eventually, it’ll be so robust that the processes will be easily attainable.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jesus Christ,

Somebody might have to resuscitate Fagan. This is awesome stuff man. Rec’d.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Apr 14, 2009 10:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, in his defense, he’s given me some ample ideas from his own posts. One of the reasons I went through some of this was to get a broader spectrum as far as the submission’s debate goes. His stats proved Gross’s assumptions wrong, and I want to go a step further. Either blast them out of the water via hordes of data to play with, or potentially prove that submissions are, in fact, lacking if we take into account the entire spectrum of MMA, year by year.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant that he might faint upon seeing this. I almost did, and it’s mostly gibberish to me. Really awesome, highly technical, incredibly detailed data, but i r two dum 4 dis cinda stuph.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Apr 14, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m still waiting to get my hands on the database Leland’s working on.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Apr 14, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you have betting odds in your DB?

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

No sir.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Apr 15, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Best fight odds is doing great work on having betting odds history for a given fighter. Doesn’t go back that far, but it is very cool.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could probably help w/ things like this...

If you need a hand, come over to our forums.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 14, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ll have a bell curve in place at some point, but many of the bigger names are in the mid-range. Fedor is roughly a .65 and Rashad Evans hovers at .6437. These are typical and don’t really tell us much. They’ve fought some very great fighters and some very mediocre fighters in comparison to their record.

He’s ranked #204 out of 1300+, pretty high on the list. It’ll be interesting to see where he’s at once I filter into weight classes.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should a fighter’s SOS calculations remove fights including that fighter?

In football, detractors to a 4-0 team will always mention that the total of its opposition’s records is 6-10 (.375) after 4 games apiece. Meanwhile, the opposition is actually 6-6 (.500) against other teams.

Generally, it tends to center around .500 (so it isn’t a big issue for most), but for the subjects with extreme records, they get over or undersold by SOS without any adjustments. This would include Fedor and Rashad, mentioned above.

by bigweeze on Apr 14, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Surprised Machida hasn’t made it with wins over guys with good-great records in Penn, Franklin, Tito, Bonnar and Thiago.

by bigweeze on Apr 14, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ranked #244 at .6323, definitely on the higher end of the bell curve still, I believe.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, this is actually a debate among stats fans. I read some articles revolving around including it, so I did so in this calculation, but I’m going to run a load of different calculations to see the differences.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Smokes. This is the kind of shit that I want to read. You need a Weo-belt of some sort.

Spinning out solid gold, like Rumpelstiltskin.

by Heenan on Apr 14, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Amazing Post

You put a lot of work into it and I have no idea where you got time to put that sort of data together.

Mad props.

by rainmaker6 on Apr 14, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Rec'd.

It makes my tiny brain hurt, but rec’d.

Rank request, ’cause we were talking about him earlier today: Hiromitsu Kanehara

by Chris Nelson on Apr 14, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions  

He doesn’t fit the criteria of this particular post, but when I do my losing records post, he’ll show up.

Here’s his stat though: Hiromitsu Kanehara 0.6587 16 – 22

This is pretty good for a 16-22 record, definitely shows he’s taken on good competition.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

statsstatsstats

I love it. Do more. Do Brock Lesnar.

by Farthammer on Apr 14, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ll find him, but here’s some interesting ranks if the number of fights is lowered to > 3 fights like Lesnar:

Matt Hamill 16695 0.7493 6 – 2
Bibiano Fernandes 0.7477 4 – 2
Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou 0.7380 5 – 4

Those three are right above Penn, but those ranks obviously are because they’ve taken on great competition without having a huge amount of fights to compare.

Lesnar is at:
Brock Lesnar 0.6553 3 – 1

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The loss to Mir hurts him that much? Mir must be loooow.

by Derek Suboticki on Apr 14, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably not, the more he fights, the better accuracy the statistic will get. If he remains at the top of the division, it’ll likely continue to get higher. At .6553, that’s very good for a 3-1 fighter. That’s about the cutting off point. You can technically be 1-0 with a .90+ because your opponent happened to have a padded record, but his opponents all had padded records against terrible competition. The only way to combat that would be to do an opponent’s opponents’ opponents stat.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 14, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

This makes me wonder about Pawel Nastula. That poor bastard got tossed into a meat grinder.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Apr 15, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL, his first fight in MMA was against Big Nog, then Aleksander, a win against Edson Draggo, and then another loss to…. Josh Barnett.

I thnk he epitomizes this statistic. I’ll have to find his rank.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pawel Nastula

He’s actually over .78, which is very high, and it shows in the competition he’s faced.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

This is really cool.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Apr 15, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow. this is insane statistical work. my brain hurts now from all of the math, and i didn’t have to compute any of it. good shit.

by snet tim on Apr 15, 2009 12:02 AM EDT reply actions  

So this is what you were talking about earlier. Cool stuff Leland. Can’t wait to see you elaborate upon the statistics.

I poop rainbows.

by Blackout612 on Apr 15, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Basically, this stat could be worked into your overviews as well as a quick determinant as to how strong a fighter’s record is.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

I’m a major stat whore and it’ll be great to get more of this information out there for MMA. I’ll definitely keep in touch and up to date on your progress. Really exciting stuff.

I poop rainbows.

by Blackout612 on Apr 15, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll slowly begin working on hybrid formulas, getting this thing to optimum levels of relevance, and doing a final post, shorter post on the finding, etc… I’ll likely push something alongside the Meta-Rankings for people to get an idea of how it works, and it could be fit in with event cards in matchup analysis, which was something I’ve always wanted to do.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW: Leland Roland is a God

Rivaling a few other guys for MVP of the Bloody Elbow FanPost community. KEEP THIS GREAT ANALYSIS COMING LELAND!

"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy

by thetakeover on Apr 15, 2009 12:27 AM EDT reply actions  

D'OH! Should read: Leland ROLING

Cursed wine-infected fingers! Now I stop making fool of myself.

"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy

by thetakeover on Apr 15, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

You still have it wrong.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Apr 15, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn’t – but thanks for making me feel even better about deleting my comment making fun of him earlier after checking Leland’s name

by Derek Suboticki on Apr 15, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, this is right. Luke usually puts Leland Rolling. But hey, I get that all the time. It sounds exactly as he spells it.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

and me?

i’d love to get the media staff opening but i think luke is leaning towards baudelaire on that..haha. but that’s cool, baudelaire does some great stuff too..

Leland on the other hand, does his own thing, he’s already an unofficial BE staff writer with all the great posts/analysis he gets fronted or rec’d for.. they should make it official.. :)

by Anton Tabuena on Apr 15, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who are the other ones? The only one I can think of would be Baudelaire. Both of those dudes make this a much, much better place.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Apr 15, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very Impressive. It is great that we have people like you Leland who go out can create posts like this. I love this type of stuff but am too lazy/busy to actually collect fighter data and compound the stats. I do have a few questions though:

1. SOS (Strength of Schedule) is a statistic about your opponent’s record i.e. if you constantly are facing 12-1, 15-2 opponents you should have a high SOS but what happens if you always lose to the top. Is that a new statistic WSOS (Win Schedule of Strength)? or is this factored in already.

2. Penn is the 155 lb. champ but obviously he has fought at 170 and higher (Machida). Is it possible to separate the classes, SOS @155, 170, etc. (lots of work I know).

3. Is there any way to incorporate BE’s meta rankings into the algorithm? Luke would love you for that.

4. Finally, is it possible to demonstrate how the algorithm works? Penn has a .7290 but I have no idea how to actually calculate the number. I know you have different weighted formula that you are testing out but it’d be easier to see firsthand. For example, Fighter A has a 2-1 record, He has defeated a 4-0, 2-3 fighter, and lost to a 5-1 fighter. What is his SOS? (Do you need more info or is this enough?)

by Sokonojudo on Apr 15, 2009 1:04 AM EDT reply actions  

1. Hence why this statistic must be taken along with the fighter’s record. If you see a high SoS with a bad record, it usually means they’ve taken on a lot of great competition (i.e. thrown to the wolves) but were unable to come out with a win.

2. I’m working on this, I have a way to seperate classes, I just need to get the algorithm correct.

3. What did you have in mind exactly?

4. The formula is explained above. This formula actually uses Win percentage, but there are others that do not which I will visit as well.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe post the SOS of those ranked in the meta rankings..

and maybe richard and the gang could also add it as a special statistics in their rankings page. :)

by Anton Tabuena on Apr 15, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great suggestion, I could definitely push this out at some time in the next couple of days. I simply need to compile the lists from the rankings.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Question, and maybe this has been answered.

If I have one win on my record, and when I beat Fighter A, he had a record of 3-0 (he fought all 0-0). Today, he has a record of 3-2.

What is my SoS?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions  

good question..

does the ratings represent the present fight record of fighters he beat, or the record of the fighter when they fought?

by Anton Tabuena on Apr 15, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I can do the calculation correctly, but this may be wrong as I’m doing it under a foggy mind from just waking up:

FIghter A is 1-?

His opponent’s winning percentage is 1.00 because he’s won all of his fights. 1.00*2 to weight his direct opponent wins would push 2.00.

Add his opponent’s opponents records as 0-1, 0-1, 0-1, and the win percentage is .000 in 3 fights.

(1.00*2 + .000 * 1) / 3 = .6667 SoS

This is the most basic formula, but it’s far from what many sabermetrics sites use, and it’s a focus of debate as well. Technically, a lot of SoS calculations eliminate the one bout in which Fighter A took on Fighter B. For a 1-0 guy vs. a 3-0 guy, the valid calculation would only be Fighter B’s two wins because the third fight is eliminated due to fighting Fighter A. Same goes for the opponent’s opponents. If any of them fight Fighter A, it is eliminated.

There is an ongoing debate as to whether it should be eliminated or not, but there are also hybrid formulas that use a combination of Win Percentages plus a ratio that I’m currently working on. There could also be more emphasis on the opponent’s opponents stat as well where the coefficient of 2 is actually multiplied by that instead of the direct opponents.

For guys who are very early in their careers, the stat doesn’t really work too well. If I unfilter that stats, there are a lot of guys who beat 7-0 fighters out the gate on some card in the middle of nowhere. Somehow, some of these guys obtained .90+ ratings, but only have 1 fight to compare.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, if the fighter is now 3-2, I’d need those fighter’s opponent’s records. 0-1, 0-1, 0-1, then what. That would give me a more accurate SoS rating.

That is a historical outlook over the entire landscape of MMA. Right now, I can easily push a yearly SoS statistic as well. For this year, who had the toughest strength of record? That would be another focus.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

So..

I think what you’re telling me is that its the present records that count, not the pre-fight records?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not following. Pre-fight, post-fight, whatever, the stats can be run and displayed. There would be changes between the two in regards to what occurred in those matchups. I can simply add results to the database and calculate.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

But to answer your question, re-running the statistics would update the scores as time goes on. So, if fighter B struggled and ended up going 3-2, Fighter A’s stat would essentially go down. This is how it should work in my mind.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

so if you wanted to update the sos of say jeremy horn, you’d have to consider all the updated records of all his opponents at that point in time?

damn thats a lot of work..

by Anton Tabuena on Apr 15, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have it computerized, although the algorithm takes some time to push through everyone in the database.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Should it REALLY be like that?

I know it can go both ways… (the loser can either move up or move down), I deal with these sort of things all the time, but I’m wondering which one would be a better representation.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see the point your making. I believe it’ll be an impact if say the fighter is heading toward the end of his career, but to counter point that argument, Fighter A would likely have more fights on his record as time goes on, smoothing out the statistic to a general area of the bell curve.

If we did historical SoS ratings by year, this would be a bit more definitive in terms of telling us where a fighter stood over the years and we could make comments on how it dropped toward the end of his career. We could also make comments about newer fighters taking on downtrodden old fighters past their prime as their SoS would make a huge jump instantly. I’ve eliminated those types from the listing as I filtered out anyone who didn’t have at least 10 fights.

I deal with sabermetrics on almost a daily basis in some regard, and dealing with all sorts of ridiculous algorithms and statistics throughout my work day. This type of context comes up from time to time as well, and it’s a tough call. Which is more representative? I would think that the user of these stats would need to still realize the context in which they are used. Is the fighter taking on guys who’ve been in the sport for a very long time. If Fighter B is on the downside of his career, Fighter A’s SoS would probably go down as Fighter B lost, but taking snapshots across the board could combat that.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its easy when...

You have seasons.. but I’m not sure breaking it into years in MMA would help THAT much, as the fight could happen on 12/30, or 1/2. Maybe a sliding window around each bout, but that would be a little tougher.

As per my previous question.. I’ll try and be a bit more thorough

Fight on 6/1/2008:

Fighter A beats Fighter B

Fighter A’s new record = 1-0

Fighter B’s new record = 1-1 (Previous opponents was 0-0 when B fought them)

Presently

Fighter A still 1-0

Fighter B is now 1-2 (All previous opponents were 0-0)

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m still unsure what your asking. Fighter A’s SoS would be calculated with the Fighter B’s new record. Fighter A’s SoS would probably drop a bit because Fighter B doesn’t have as strong of a record as previously before.

I think this is how it should work, especially for earlier fights within the landscape of MMA. Fighter B could end up being a complete can of a fighter and hit 1-9, and Fighter A’s win over him shouldn’t be viewed as a STRONG fight down the road even if he beat him when he was only 1-1.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

good point.. i was leaning towards considering their record at the time they fought.. but youre right..

if a guy beat him when he was 1-1 he shouldn’t get much credit for it if the 1-1 guy loses his next 8 fights..

Although, this would be hard to call when older fighters with good records get beat.. but hey, either way, if you beat him today or after he loses a couple of fights, he’d still have a pretty good record and the sos would be similar right?..
plus a bigger range of fights would smoothen out the curve.. so i say continue with having the sos be updated with each fight that happens for each opponent. :)

by Anton Tabuena on Apr 15, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure if this is what JCS_FM is hinting at, but I understand the concern in the representation of the statistic. The fact is… all statistics have some sort of deterrent. Normally, two guys being compared who have been in the sport for a very long time won’t affect the SoS rating enormously down the line because there are so many more records to use in the calculation.

It’s somewhat like the Volatility in a basic Glicko system. Volatility eventually hits a point where it doesn’t move much at all. Volatility is like a +/- of what an actual fighters ranking would be. At the beginning of their career, a huge win would boost their ranking, but their volatility would still be very high, +/- 100 spots or something. As time goes on, it would shrink and their true ranking would begin to come into place.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I assume that

You are using T-SQL or VB in conjunction with a relational database to get this info, correct?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or well.. SQL in general.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

That answers it.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d be interested in hearing any theories you might have regarding the representation of the data. Right now, I understand the point you were making, and I’m interested in hearing other ways to represent it to benefit the overall structure of the statistic and relevance of it.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would tackle it..

With a sliding window. This would be pretty difficult, but instead of going backwards or forwards, I’d only count bouts within say.. two years forward, and two years backwards.

In other words, if I’m 19-9.. I look at my last two years (can’t go forward here), where I’m 5-3.

I take those 8 bouts, and use the opponent’s records two years prior, and two years forward.. apply that to the SoS.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll definitely try to add this to the list of algorithms I want to try to implement into the SoS stat. It shouldn’t be too tough to produce a sliding window if I limit the dates of fights.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

That sliding window would be dynamic when you consider the opponents… so that does add an element of difficulty.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. That is the most difficult part. I’m trying to limit these processes to only SQL, but that may have to use some sort of processing code-wise.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah..

I wouldn’t rely on SQL. You can do a great deal of pre-processing with VB and probably save yourself an hour or two.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends. SQL is much faster if you can process it all within a statement depending on subqueries, etc.

Pre-processing in code can be time consuming though. It’ll depend on what kinds of operations I’ll be doing. I’ll have to review it.

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by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guess it depends

On how efficient you are with the coding aspect.

Some of the stats I’ve done required some external coding. I can tell you that pulling a dataset into memory and utilizing arrays can be far more speedy than relying on SQL syntax and tables.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true, very true.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could take a look at what you are doing and make your SQL faster then the VB. SQL server is made to look over the data and can do a great job if you approch it correctly. The problem is you can approch it in a limitless number of ways and not all of them are optimal for what you need.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can do anything with SQL and most developers at least know some sql. Don’t add VB if you don’t have to. VB is not a good language.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is pretty much what I’m trying to do. Right now, the SoS statistic is done with a small amount of external coding, but only because I was lazy and didn’t want to figure out how to code the SQL statement.

Subsequently, I have the SQL statement finished, and can now process the stats about 100x faster. My own procrastination and staring at a monitor all day at work crunching numbers made me avoid it at home.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear the lazyness part. It’s why I haven’t created this type of DB in the first place. Writing scrapers is mind numbing.

I can’t write english worth a damn so writing articles like this is not really an option for me, but with SQL I can do some magical stuff. Let me know if you need some extra eyes. Your stats work is great and I am willing to work to get more of it.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The algorithm grabbing DB stats is pretty much done. I don’t need help doing that, but I will likely need some extra eyes on SQL to shape some of the statistics I want to do.

When I get done with it, I’m making an application that will allow choice people to have eyes on this stuff for collaborative work. I’ll email you any questions I have on stats.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome, I will help in any way I can.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The detail query is daunting

I’m at 400,000+ rows and going…

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I regularly handle 100 million row sets. I have had to learn to optimize.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same here, roughly 110 million rows. Pretty god damn insane. It’s pretty fun trying to make speedy processes.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what you're saying is

Its a good thing I didn’t wait for it to finish.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, we could load this all in COBOL for some blazing fast speed with some vintage green screens, tab programming, and annoyingly bad restrictions.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now THAT’S a fucking idea

by Derek Suboticki on Apr 15, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. No matter your opinion on the results, the work is impressive.

A big thanks and a giant Choi to Leland!

If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.

by BJJDenver on Apr 15, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice work. But the rankings pose huge problems, most notably that it’s a simple binary system. ie, you win you get 1 point, you lose you get 0. This is the problem that exists in all sports with binary ranking systems that are based on elo-chess (which would essentially be what yours is, minus the probability part). You’re putting emphasis on a winning record and having a winning record against guys who have winning records.

Problems arise because someone who loses all of their fights via split decision is going to be a hell of a lot better fighter than someone who loses all of their fights via knockout or submission. That’s why elo evolved with most sports to include the point spread. Once MMA can come up with a point spread system (a simple way of quanitfying one fighter’s effort against his opponent) then a ranking system can be implemented that utilizes SOS and all of the other rankings and stats that come along with it.

And I do not think that modeling an SOS system on the BCS is a good idea. The ‘black boxes’ in the BCS are good, but they had to remove all SOS from the the computer rankings.

How do you feel about mma-elo’s SOS?

by mhauer on Apr 15, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions  

We handle those SD/MD variations..

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unsure how you are deducing that I’m putting emphasis on a winning record and having a winning record against guys who have winning records.

The calculation doesn’t filter out by winning record whatsoever. The results above are just showing the guys who have winning records. It isn’t filtering their actual calculation by winning record. I only filtered this to have a listing of guys that fans would actually know of. This is more for casual fans to view and look at. My actual ranking is HUGE, and it includes even the most miniscule record (i.e. 1-0 guys, 0-1 guys). The problem is that when the SoS is calculated that low, it isn’t going to be an accurate representation because they haven’t fought a solid number of fights.

Secondly, this really isn’t a ranking. It’s more of a statistic to deduce how strong a fighter’s record is. If I look at a matchup and see someone at .70 and a guy at .55, there is a huge difference in the competition that person has faced, and the calculation revolves around first generation (fighter’s opponents) and second generation (fighter’s opponent’s opponents).

The statistic has nothing to do with the ELO ranking schema. ELO is calculated at a very detailed level while this is more of a topical statistic on strength of record. In no way should this be deduced as a RANKING of fighters in any way. It’s simply a way to see how strong the competition they have faced is. I’m not sure how this is being lumped in with a way to RANK fighters. This is completely seperate.

Modeling the system after BCS is my most simple form because it was the quickest to implement in the time I have. I’ve already began working on a hybrid formula and various other formulas as mentioned above.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, from what I can deduce from MMA-ELO’s SoS, my rankings in this phase would almost be the same if I filtered out some more criteria, although I think limiting the SoS to 10 fights is somewhat problematic in including some key Japanese competition. Someone like Dong Sik Yoon would be in the top 10 in my eyes as far as SoS goes.

Hunt would likely be at the top with his record. Penn, St. Pierre at 2 and 3 and so on.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leland..

After tossing this idea around in a query (w/ the sliding window)… isn’t the last layer the only one that’s really necessary? Why did you decide to factor in the opponents’ strength, as well as the opponents’ opponents’ strength?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Opponent’s opponents strength is vital in my mind. For instance, if I’m 10-0 and I took on a bunch of opponents who were equally good in terms of record, i.e. most of them were 5-0, 4-0… the opponents’ opponent’s records come into play. If those opponents I faced had padded records by taking on terrible competition, the piece of the equation were expose that. You’d be basically taking a 1.00 win percentage, weighting it, then adding it to a very low win percentage, it’ll lower that strength.

Taking on another fighter who is 10-0 but who padded his record with 4-0, 5-0 guys who essentially padded their records with a bunch of 0-1 guys is the essential piece here. Without that, a lot of guys with insane records who battled mediocre competition would be much higher.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

But what I’m saying is that the most vital level is the “last” one.. the opponents’ opponents’… or however deep you want to go.

So why use any shallow levels in the calculation?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because ultimately, the fighter’s direct opponents should have more weight since he actually fought those fighters. If I don’t include that statistic, there are some discrepancies in my mind that can throw off the calculation.

I had one instance in my head a minute ago… ugh…

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I beat someone that's 11-0

It doesn’t mean much of anything if that guy’s opponents are a combined 4-125

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is definitely true, but I still think holding more weight on direct wins is vital in most cases. That case is definitely the detterent to that.

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by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thinking about this…

The coefficient could be a total of opponents instead of simply 2. And we could inversely multiply those.

Opponent’s Opponents times Opponent’s Winning Percentage + Opponents * Opponent’s Opponent’s Winning Percentage

Divide all that by Opponent’s Opponents + Opponents

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

At that point..

The Opponents’ Opponents are getting a majority of the weight…

I’m going to drop the first layer all together, and use the 4 (max) year sliding window. See what I come up with.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you’re going to only include a 4 year window such as ’08 – ’04 and so on?

Are you only going to include fights by opponent’s opponents that are in that window?

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its going to be dynamic...

First, I’m considering only those fighters who fought in the past 2 years.. since I can’t go 2 years forward (in the future).

At that point, I’m taking all of the opponents’ bouts that occurred within a 4 year window (2 on either side) of the bout between fighter and opponent. I’m doing the same thing with the opponent bout with the opponents’ opponent.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually..

I think I’m going to decrease that MAX window to 3 years

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot about the potential looping...

AHhh, back to the drawing board.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

recursive looping can be an issue, but you need an end case so you don’t create an endless loop.

by szucconi on Apr 15, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can handle it

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Got it.. With a minimum of 100 decisions..

The best SoS for the opponents’ opponents using a dynamic 3 year sliding window.

Top three are:

1. Urijah Faber (93-28-1, .762)
2. Katsuhisa Fujii (76-23-1, .760)
3. Jens Pulver (110-35-1, .753)

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

So I assume the next step is to make something like

“Projected Records with an Average Schedule”

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Apr 15, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

JCS_FM

Have you ever messed with the Colley Matrix method or Keener Matrix method of ranking?

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Have not.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s all Matrix theory, but Colley’s method is very simple to implement. I always wanted to try to see how it would compare to an ELO ranking without any modifications. Obviously, modifications are a must in the landscape of MMA.

Keeners Matrix method might be ideal though. The knock on Keener’s method is that when ranked with football, running up scores screws up the algorithm. MMA doesn’t have a score, just a winner, loser, or draw. It might be ideal. It’s another calculation I’d love to just play with in terms of comparisons to rankings.

Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com

by Leland Roling on Apr 15, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I had a bug in my initial query...

But I should have some results from that sliding window test on the strength of opponents’ opponents’… maybe before the end of the day, if not by tomorrow.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 15, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!

Thank you very much.

by Riney on Apr 15, 2009 7:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Another great post Leland. If you havent already, you should definately check out http://www.mma-elo.com/

They have created a great objective rankings list there and have gone into great detail as you have. Hunt down ‘Pooh Bear’ on the forums. Dont let the name mislead you, he knows his shit!!!

by GeeDub on Apr 16, 2009 6:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Here's my report

http://www.fightmatrix.com/2009/04/15/strength-of-schedule-with-a-twist/#more-751

Posted on April 15, 2009 by jcs

I saw Leland Roling of MMA-Analyst post on BloodyElbow with some strength of schedule statistics. He went two layers deep, and included the winning percentage of fighters’ opponents, as well as the opponents’ opponents.

Although his efforts were more than noteworthy, after taking a closer look, I felt the combination of the two layers was a bit subjective in nature. Furthermore, the statistics included the entire careers of all fighters involved, which I felt was overkill.

I decided to take a modified version of this on. For starters, I only included the winning percentage of the opponents of a fighter’s opponents; that 2nd opponent layer. I concluded that only including a fighters’ opponents was too shallow of a measure, and if you were going to include both, you may as well only include the 2nd opponent layer, rather than weight the two opponent layers in an attempt to combine them. Also, I decided to utilize a dynamic 3-year sliding window, that would adapt itself to the bouts found at each layer.

For example, if Fighter A fights Fighter B on 3/1/2009, my code will look at all Fighter B’s bouts within the previous 18 months (1/2 of the window), as well as his bouts within the next 18 months. The next step, is to look at all of the bouts of Fighter B’s opponents, and apply the same sliding window, based on the date in which Fighter B fought them. This 2nd opponent layer (3rd layer overall) is the one we are concerned about.

So who came out on top? Well, the 2nd opponent layer of some fighters were limited, so I had to implement a minimum qualifier of 100 bouts for this layer. Just for the record, Ganjo Tentsuku was the raw #1, with a 2nd layer SoS of 32-2-2. Its also worth noting that the initial fighters included (not the opponents) have to had a fight in the previous 18 months, as that is one-half of the sliding window. Remember, we have to start somewhere, and we can’t predict the future, so we can only use exactly half of the sliding window. I also decided to not include draws in the winning percentage, but will list them.

Here’s the Top 10, if anyone is interested, I’ll post a more comprehensive list.

.
Fighter W L D Win%
Urijah Faber 93 28 1 76.9%
Katsuhisa Fujii 76 23 1 76.8%
Yoshiro Maeda 156 49 6 76.1%
Jens Pulver 110 35 1 75.9%
Brian Foster 80 26 1 75.5%
Toshiaki Kitada 89 30 14 74.8%
John Gunderson 102 35 2 74.5%
Kazuyuki Fujita 90 31 1 74.4%
Tatsuya Kawajiri 123 43 2 74.1%
Jeremy Stephens 80 28 1 74.1%

.

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Apr 16, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions  

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