Is Frank Shamrock Finished as a Headliner?
by Kid Nate on Apr 12, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
in News
69 comments
Dave Meltzer thinks so:
It might have been the final curtain for one of MMA’s all-time greats. Shamrock, whose ability to sell fights is a big reason Strikeforce can be the long term No. 2 MMA promotion in North America behind UFC, couldn’t hang with Diaz in the show’s main event, likely making him the last of the original pioneers of the sport to fall from major event headliner status.
...It was both a happy and sad night for promoter Scott Coker, who called the event a grand slam success, but sensed the guy who paved the way for all this to happen may have fought his last big-time fight.
“It’s sad because Frank is my friend and he and his wife are my social friends,” said Coker, whose initial success in promoting MMA came March 10, 2006, when Shamrock knocked out Cesar Gracie at the HP Pavilion before a sellout of 18,265 fans.
...One of the most unhappy spectators during the match was Tito Ortiz, the loser of Shamrock’s most legendary match, a UFC middleweight championship match ten years ago. Ortiz was hoping to avenge that loss in a ten-year anniversary of the match later this year.
“I felt like I was watching money disappear,” said Ortiz, who has not signed with Strikeforce.
Shamrock vs Ortiz wasn't the only big money rematch to lose its luster with Shamrock's TKO loss. Coker and Strikeforce will now need to find a money opponent for Cung Le's return. I wonder if Robbie Lawler will be that man.
Oh well, there's always brother Ken Shamrock out there somewhere, desperately looking for a payday.
Fightlinker chimes in too:
There’s still plenty of entertaining fights out the for him to take. Frank Trigg seemed like he was angling for a fight with Shamrock last week. Royce Gracie was hanging out at the Strikeforce press conference too. And I expect Tito Ortiz to do poorly enough that a rematch can still happen. Last but not least if Frank keeps losing he might eventually get to the point where a Ken Shamrock fight is competitive again! Hah, just kidding. One would hope Frank would retire before then.
At this point it’s time to lay to rest the idea that Frank is still able to keep up with the next generation. If he’s still got it, he hasn’t shown it in his last two fights. I used to think he dicked around and lost the Cung Le fight on purpose but after seeing him struggle with Nick, I’ve had to re-evaluate that assumption. There’s still a few great fights in Frank Shamrock, for sure. But his days as a champion are done now.
I must say the possibility of a Frank vs Frank match between Shamrock and Trigg is intriguing and could position the winner for a run at Cung Le and Robbie Lawler at the top of the division. Or even Jake Shield at the top of the welterweight division. Frank Shamrock at 170? Maybe. That would be a good weight for an utterly pointless but money fight with Royce Gracie.
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likely making him the last of the original pioneers of the sport to fall from major event headliner status.
Randy Couture?
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Frank started in Pancrase in 1994, Randy didn’t start MMA until 1997. Frank had had over 20 fights before he went to the UFC in 1997.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, and?
Randy was still one of “the original pioneers” and he is still headlining events, so Shamrock is not the last one.
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a good point, but personally, I wouldn’t consider Couture a pioneer. He didn’t debut until after the sport was already in decline in the US and wasn’t involved in building the sport in either the U.S. or Japan.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 12, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Randy is a “original pioneer” then you would have to count a heck of a lot of guys that people don’t think of as “oringinals”, Chuck Liddell started in 1997, Wanderlei Silva started in 1996, Dan Henderson started in 1997, heck Heath Herring started in 1997. The difference between starting in 1994 and 1997 makes a real difference when talking about a sport that didn’t really get started till 1993; it’s the difference between talking about Bas Rutten(93) or Josh Barnett(97).
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough, I guess I just don’t consider December 94 and May 97 to be that big of a difference. If we are only talking about guys that participated in the first year or two of the sport he doesn’t qualify, but I would still consider him a pioneer for everything he has done for the sport.
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
randy, is a pioneer, an all time great, and a living legend all in 1. that sums him up to me.
by bdw on Apr 12, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between 94 and 97 is huge in a sport that for all practical purposes started in 93. I’m not trying to take anything away from Randy Couture or any of those other guys that started at the same time as he did but they were definatly the second generation of guys getting into the sport when it was becoming MMA as we think of it today. Randy and Tito started on the same show (UFC 13), Frank Shamrock had already had 20 fights by that time.
As far as Randy is concerned yes he is a elder statesmen in the sport but you have to remember he was pretty old when he got started too(he was almost Shamrock’s age now when he started fighting MMA). Fighters like Wanderlei Silva, Jeremy Horn, Josh Barnett and even Heath Herring have been fighting mma longer than Randy Couture has. He is a legend in the sport but he’s not one of the original guys that started it off.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In fairness whether the sport was in decline or not shouldn’t have any bearing on Randy’s legacy, it’s not his fault the UFC didn’t have the same kind of base as it does now. Maybe he didn’t have a hand in building the sport here but he ceratainly had a hand in rebuilding it.
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of this there can be no doubt. Randy is a true legend, just not a pioneer. Of course, in 25 years I think all the fighters we’ve need over the last fifteen years will be considered trailblazers and pioneers.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 12, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a lot of those second generation guys have cemented their legacies in the sport, heck many of them are still fighting at a very high level in MMA today.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. I think you can separate the last 15 years into two periods:
A. The Pioneers: These are the fighters who built the sport, like Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, and Masakatsu Funaki. I think the cut off point for these fighters is probably Mark Coleman, the last significant fighter with a single tool set.
B. The Post-Alliance Fighters: While there are some fighters that bridge the gap between these eras, this is the modern generation of fighters that have grown up as professionals in the post-Frank Shamrock and Renzo Gracie era. These fighters aren’t single discipline specialists. They combine skills from across the spectrum to form complete fighters.
We are in the midst of a new group of fighters. It is more than just skillsets now. More and more native athleticism is the most important factor in settling contests between equally or similarly skilled fighters.
I just came up with this in the last five minutes. It’s probably hopelessly wrong. ;)
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 12, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Makes sense, I’d have to think about it a little more, and I think you might be able to seperate into another group of the guys like Tito, Chuck, Hughes, etc. who dominated the period of (roughly) UFC 20-70 and the newer guys like Rampage, Rashad, Anderson, etc. who have come to the forefront in the last 3-4 years.Of course 5 different people could come up with 5 different answers to that question and there isn’t necessarily a right or wrong answer.
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tito, Chuck, Randy and Hughes would be the second generation guys, they all started when the sport was getting organized and they all came in as guys who were more well rounded in their training. Guys who started pre-Zuffa era UFC but excelled after regulations/standardization came about. A lot of the big Pride stars would fall into that catagory too.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that, the first generation guys were really defined by their skillset(or lack of it). They came from the age where mixed martial arts meant that the fights were between different styles. The second generation really brought about the idea of the fighter mixing different styles into their training, the third generation took that to the next level where guys actually dangerous in multiple disiplines. I’m not sure if you would call the post TUF guys a 4th generation or just a extension of the third but what we are really seeing now is elite level athletes starting to chose MMA over other sports from the start.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That statement had nothing at all to do with Randy’s legacy, hell I think we can all agree that Randy Couture has been a lot more important to the sport than Frank Shamrock ever was, but being a legend in the sport doesn’t make him one of the original guys.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would definitely disagree with this
but to each his own.
by rainmaker6 on Apr 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy came in at the same time as Vitor Belfort and Dan Henderson, Frank was in the sport at a time when Ron Van Clief and Keith Hackney were still fighting UFC events, he’s been doing this as long as Dan Severn has, the three year difference in when they got into the sport makes a big difference when talking about “original pioneers” of the sport.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it really really does make a huge difference !!!!
by Shocbomb on Apr 12, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I felt like I was watching money disappear” Tito talking about a fight with Frank who should be fighting at 170 lbs. Way to keep yourself relevant in your weight class.
by bubbafat on Apr 12, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"I felt like I was watching money disappear"
Yeah well, a lot of us have been feeling that over the past few months. Get in line.
by joerogansvnecktee on Apr 12, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The one thing I’ve learned about this sport is that people have very short memories. That’s why I think Shamrock/Ortiz would still draw pretty good with all the hype that these two will bring to it. I don’t think that the Shamrock/Le fight will be as big as it would have been if he won but I still think people will look at the first fight and say “if he could just take Le down Shamrock could win.” Shamrock is obviously not what he once was but I don’t think it’s quite over yet for him. That’s only because we as fans forget and fall for the hype.
by dedstrk316 on Apr 12, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What is this?
Nick Diaz sends a clear message to the entire MMA community last night and Frank gets the attention. This is a great example of how Nick Diaz gets no respect in this sport. Most picked Frank to win the fight. Diaz clowns the legend in frightening fashion and Frank is the story. Un-fucking-believeable! Wake up people!
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Apr 12, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I back that. He never gets respect for his wins over Gomi and Lawler, but people always get on him for his cut stoppage by Noons. The good side is that he is 24 so if he keeps getting better people eventually are going to have to pay attention to him
by EazyEismydad on Apr 12, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgive me
Frank’s an all-time great of the sport who’s been headlining big events for a decade, including 4 showtime events. His fall is a bigger story than Diaz’ rise. We’ll see if Nick can headline a bout — I must say that a rematch with Robbie Lawler, especially if Lawler beats Diaz teammate Jake Shields badly would have some heat and be a fine headliner.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Apr 12, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well......
As a fully certified Diaz Bros. nut hugger I respectfully disagree.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Apr 12, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can you not pay attention to Nick Diaz? Everytime he says anything at all it’s all over the internet. Nick is headlining events, get over the no respect silliness. Nick DIaz was 11 years old when Frank Shamrock started fighting professionally, there is nothing at all wrong with discussing the future of a legend in the sport and the keystone of Strikeforce after a loss.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Diaz would have gotten more attention if he had beaten a competitive Frank Shamrock. Instead, to me at least, the story was more how bad Frank looked and less how good Diaz looked.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 12, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s my point. Frank could not compete with Diaz.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Apr 12, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why people are talking about whether Frank Shamrock is finished as a headlining fighter in this article. Frank Shamrock didn’t just lose he looked like the sport had passed him by.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank didn’t lose because the sport passed him by though. He lost because Nick Diaz is that good.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Apr 12, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
except that
Frank no longer has the knees to go for a takedown, the power to punch effectively or the ability to throw kicks. The guy is a ghost of his old self.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Apr 12, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Muhsin Corbbrey(a guy who had been fighting on ShoXC events) lasted longer against Diaz than former multiple time world champion Frank Shamrock did.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Aina beat his ass and then got robbed.
by Michael Rome on Apr 12, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 12, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m so glad I’m not the only one that feels that way.
by subo on Apr 12, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still can’t believe that decision.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Apr 13, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Diaz brothers make it hard to respect them though
with alot of their antics.
If Nick dropped the attitude and pot, I would respect the hell out of his in cage skills.
He is alot better than I give him credit for, but its hard to stomach everything he does outside of the cage.
by Razreshat on Apr 13, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank vs Kimbo on CBS just before the main event. Frank wins and he is main event capable again with a good opponent. Worst comes to worst Kimbo wins and he gets his marketability back
by EazyEismydad on Apr 12, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s interesting. I believe Kimbo said he had another fight left on his old contract or something, and considering how uninterested he is in MMA now, it might be a good opportunity to try to have some of his marketability passed onto another fighter if they beat him. I mean, when they beat him :)
by pud333 on Apr 12, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kimbo's contract
I think Kimbo has 2 or 3 fights on that contract. I am almost positive its 3. I remember becasue in that article he also said he would fight those fights out with Strike Froce and then leave MMA for Boxing. I think a Frank Vs Kimbo fight sells great for strike Force
by Shocbomb on Apr 12, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is Frank going to fight Kimbo?
The Cyborg debacle not withstanding don’t they still have weight classes to deal with? I guess Frank could put on 30 or 40 pounds but that fight just makes no sense to me.
by ufc4 on Apr 12, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was surprised at how… ineffective Shamrock was against Diaz. I expected Diaz to win, but at no point in that fight did Diaz look like he was in danger. Like Fightlinker, I’ve had to re-evaluate the Cung Le fight. I’m not quite ready to write off Shamrock just yet. I still think he can be competitive. We’ll see in his next fight.
by pud333 on Apr 12, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Diaz hasn’t been consistent, but when he is at his best he can stand and go to the ground with the best in the world. He just brought his best game last night and Shamrock isn’t on his level
Diaz would be a top 10 fighter if he stayed in one weight class and his Gomi win was given back
by EazyEismydad on Apr 12, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the books say about the Gomi fight is irrelevant to his rankings, just because the official records changed doesn’t mean that what people who rank fighters think about that fight changed. Just because the athletic commission changed the fight decision doesn’t mean that anyone at all forgot about the fight, heck Gomi’s performances since then take more away from that fight than anything the athletic commission did.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO SIR
IF Diaz stayed at LW there is no way he is even close to the top 10 in that devision, That Dam Gomi fight is his only BIG win in the LW devision and a mid level Win agaisnt Tibau Diaz ever had. Other then that lets not forget he lost the 4 BIG LW fights he had in the UFC against Karo,Diego,Riggs and Sherk
by Shocbomb on Apr 12, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was a welterweight in the UFC not a lightweight. he was fighting at lightweight in EliteXC to avoid Jake Shields.
by who me on Apr 13, 2009 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, Shamrock deserves credit for being a ‘pioneer’ and a top fighter at one time. However, I’ve always thought his recent string of fights with EXC and Strikeforce were put together mainly to make him look better than he currently is. Cung Le and Diaz are quality opponents though many felt the weight and power issue would give Frank an advantage in this most recent fight. Renzo Gracie was better than I think EXC wanted him to be. Everybody knows how that match turned out. Suffice to say, the way Frank and EXC handled that left a sour taste in my mouth.
Diaz is his own worst enemy in a number of ways. He seems to fight down to the level of his opponents at times. Diaz should be fighting at 170 instead of at a lower weight. I’m not a huge fan of his, but he’s good when motivated. Period.
by Cannon Jacques on Apr 12, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The most shocking thing to me was that Frank actually had nothing on his punches. I was at the Cung Le fight, and he looked like a completely different guy. He just couldn’t pull the trigger, and when he did there was nothing there, which is the sign of a shot fighter.
Frank pulled the wool over people’s eyes, including me. From now on I just want to see him fight other legends instead of getting killed by young guys. Maybe Frank v. Royce or something.
by Michael Rome on Apr 12, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what shocks me is that frank talked about going into boxing after mma. ha!
by bdw on Apr 12, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Frank v Royce is one I’d like to see.
by pud333 on Apr 12, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know All of the pioneers deserve at least some form of respect. However they need to know when their prime is done and when it’s a good idea to leave the ring. Is his time at the top finished? Well ask your average MMA fan if they think that Couturfe, Liddell, Rich Franklin or Matt Hughes are finished? Frank probably has a few fights left in him against top guys in Strike (just my opinion)
When it’s over though I hope he gracefully goes behind the mike and stays there. He’s not a bad commentator. Unlike his brother Ken who’s makeing the sport into a JOKE!
But you can read my thoughts on that on www.extremefightingnews.com
by Warcorpse on Apr 12, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As fun as it is to prematurely retire fighters, or advise them to change weight classes, I tend to buy the rib injury story. Frank just looked like he couldn’t pull the trigger comfortably or move like he did vs. Cung Le. He did get inside a couple times early in round 2, but you could tell that without his speed, Diaz was battering him any time he got in close enough to fire.
I guess I’ll have to watch the fight again, but I’m not closing the book on Frank because of one poor performance.
by smoogy on Apr 12, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh it’s way to early to be calling on Frank to retire (he’s not Ken) but I do think his last two fights should get people questioning his elite status in the sport. I’d still be excited to see him fight Tito (another guy with question marks surrounding his elite status in the sport).
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’d concede that he will likely never grace another top 10 rankings list, but he has plenty of use left. The Tito fight seems less realistic now given how small Frank looked, but something like Pat Miletich or a Grace (Royce, Renzo) next would make a lot of sense
by smoogy on Apr 12, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Tito fight would make sense from the standpoint of making money or the need to headline a CBS event but I agree that the size difference would be a real problem for Frank. He’s sort of pigeon holed as a special attraction fighter now, I can’t imagine him fighting Robbie Lawler for a belt at 185.
A Renzo rematch would be real interesting.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that the size diffrence would be as detrementel to Frank for a couple of reasons
1 Tito’s been inactive for good little while now
2 I’ve seen Tito have more than one problem defending himself on the ground.
3 The last couple of fights I saw with Tito in the UFC he wasn’t all that good. That may have had a lot to do with Dana White but Tito may have lost his edge.
Me I’d love to see the fight and I and I’d give Frank a decent shot at winning.
by Warcorpse on Apr 12, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tito is in much better shape, is not nearly as shopworn (which is not to say that Frank needs to retire), and is much bigger. With Frank’s knees as shot up as they are, I doubt he could stop the takedown. On top of that, Tito is an underrated grappler and I don’t see Frank submitting him. I wouldn’t put money on Shamrock in a fight like that.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 12, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The big question mark on Tito will be how much did back surgery help him. He will go in with a real size advantage, Frank is a natural middleweight and Tito could fight at heavyweight if he wanted to. Tito with a good back and a big size advantage against Frank with bad knees sounds like a long night for Frank Shamrock.
by who me on Apr 12, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you guys think of a Sakuraba matchup?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 12, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank vs Miletich is a fight I would like to see !!!
by Shocbomb on Apr 12, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Royce talking about GSP a couple weeks ago?
Frank Shamrock isn’t exactly the same thing.
by subo on Apr 12, 2009 8:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“I must say the possibility of a Frank vs Frank match between Shamrock and Trigg is intriguing and could position the winner for a run at Cung Le and Robbie Lawler at the top of the division.”
Wait, what? Two over-the hill losers could fight to see which one should get destroyed by an overrated one-dimensional striker or… okay, one of two overrated one-dimensional strikers – neither of which would could stand up to the third-string competition in the UFC? And this is intriguing? Wha?
Strikeforce put on some entertaining fights, and Diaz showed once again that he’s too good for those mopes. The Strikeforce contract announcements are more intriguing than any fights they can put together after this card.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Apr 13, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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