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Striking vs. Submissions

One of the comments in the telecast the other night about how wrestling gives you the advantage of being able to choose where a fight ends up started me thinking about the evolving role of the different disciplines in MMA and how they interact. I’ve only been following MMA for about 18 months after following boxing for years. The last two UFCs had subconsciously conditioned me to think that striking was taking over hugely from submissions as a way of finishing a fight early. I guessed that this was down to a number of things such as:

1.      submissions being harder to master.

2.      rules being structured by organisations to be more favourable to strikers and therefore more entertaining to the general public.

3.      wrestlers using their wrestling as a delivery system for strikes which when combined with the high incidence of wrestlers makes strikes more prevalent than submissions.

Then I watched the Munoz-Hamill fight. I had read a few previews that reasoned Munoz far better wrestling pedigree would mean he should handily beat someone like Hamill who came from a wrestling background. When I saw a kick ending it, it only re-enforced the conclusion that strikes are the most effective weapon. I decided to go back and look at results from the last 10 UFCs to see how the breakdown compared between submissions and strikes. A statistician would quite rightly argue that by not counting fights which went to a decision I am not really giving a fair reflection of the respective roles although I would guess that striking played a bigger role in most of these fights.  They would also argue that 10 UFCs are not a statistical sample which is fair enough.

 

 

Strikes

Submissions

UFC 87

2

2

UFC 88

1

4

UFC 89

2

3

UFC 90

2

2

UFC 91

3

5

UFC 92

8

0

UFC 93

6

1

UFC 94

2

0

UFC 95

6

2

UFC 96

7

0

 

    (Originally had an excel graph but embarrassed to say could not get it to appear in this post).

 

 

To my surprise my perception that finishes from striking hugely out-numbered those from submissions was not totally true despite any potential bias against submission specialists e.g. stand-ups etc.

 

So, I had a few questions of the other people here:

 

Do you think this limited data proves anything in relation to strikers vs. submission specialists?

 

Do you think the deck has been artificially stacked against submission specialists or is it just that opponents have become better at neutralising jiu-jitsu?

 

And one last question, if a decent boxer (not someone like Rahman who has been dialling in their performances for a while) , say David Haye trained for a reasonable amount of time in takedown defence and grappling and competed at 205, could he consistently emulate the Hamill contest and end most fights with strikes? (Hopefully this questions does not get me slaughtered, I am not some delusional who thinks a top boxer could be successful in MMA without serious cross-training).

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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I think they definately could...

They would need to focus on a compete striking game (kicks, elbows and knees) and working from the bottom. Most top level fighters can rush and clinch without eating to many shots, and when a striker gets on the bottom against a seasoned grappler it spells trouble. This goes for BJJ champions (Marghales), Wrestlers (Roschalt), and Muay Thai champions (Kit Cope) as well. It’s become trite, but you have to be a complete fighter to compete at the highest levels.

It would take a good 2 years of solid training before anyone could become a big threat in a division, no matter their pedigree.

by B Money on Mar 9, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

And also more about what wrestlers have trained

Look how many TKO’s/KO’s Urijah has vs how many submissions he has. His best wins have come via submission.

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Mar 9, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I mean...

Who really wants to watch two sweaty guys rolling around on the ground in pseudo-sexual positions anyway?

But seriously, I agree with ItBurnzWhenIP in that it’s more about the match-making. They’ve just don’t a lot of strikers vs. inexperienced wrestlers and grapplers which typically pans out for the more experienced guys. Maia is pretty much the only submission fighter (in the UFC) who wins by submission on a consistent basis.

by KneeToTheFace on Mar 9, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

don’t forget Mclovin

by pr0cs on Mar 9, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The striking/submission thing aside, it isn’t always about who is teh best in a certain discipline. In other words, Munoz may beat Hammill in a wrestling match, but how does either individual adapt it to mma? How does someone like Jacare adapt his BJJ? Or Malipet his Muay Thai? Or Cung Le his San Shou?

Then think about if two solid wrestlers like Matt and Munoz get in there, the grappling is greatly neutralized and then you see two guys slugging it out, like teh other night. I think you saw the result of poor stand up in that fight, not a display of great stand up, taking nothing away from Hammil’s power.

If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.

by BJJDenver on Mar 9, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

There's a couple of things at work here
And one last question, if a decent boxer (not someone like Rahman who has been dialling in their performances for a while) , say David Haye trained for a reasonable amount of time in takedown defence and grappling and competed at 205, could he consistently emulate the Hamill contest and end most fights with strikes?

There’s a big difference between striking in boxing and striking in MMA. MMA requires a different stance due to the threat of being taken down. Kicks and the clinch game are also a big adjustment for those who are trained in traditional boxing. Even getting used to the stand up game in MMA would require a major adjustment.


Do you think the deck has been artificially stacked against submission specialists or is it just that opponents have become better at neutralising jiu-jitsu?

The deck isn’t stacked against submission specialists. I’ll admit right now I don’t train in jiu-jitsu so I don’t know have personal experience in this area, but the common wisdom is that it is much easier to learn defensive grappling than offensive grappling. Basically, it is easier to learn about submissions and how to defend them, rather then be so skilled as to consistently tap out opponents.

Do you think this limited data proves anything in relation to strikers vs. submission specialists?

It’s important to keep in mind a victory from strikes can come on the feet or the mat. Oftentimes fighters win by tko due to strikes because they are able to use superior grappling ability to gain dominate positions on the mat. It’s not simply a function of one fighter being a better striker than the other.

by Andy R on Mar 9, 2009 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Tehre was some fightmetric data

on submissions versus knockouts somewhere.

I think it showed the number of knockouts, submissions and decisions were pretty consistent throughout MMA.

by rainmaker6 on Mar 9, 2009 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

by consistent

I don’t mean they were the same.

by rainmaker6 on Mar 9, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah fuck it

i’m not coherent right now….ignore me.

by rainmaker6 on Mar 9, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

styles make fights...

The UFC is intentionally promoting fights (and fighters) that will be stand up. They are doing this because that is what the majority of American fans want to see. Don’t forget that the UFC is a business designed primarily to sell PPV’s. American’s love to watch people get knocked out. Guys rolling around on the ground — not too much.

I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.

by mma_dude on Mar 10, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions  

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