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Problems With Female MMA Rankings

Gina-carano-kelly-kobold_mediumMy position is very much in line with Jordan Breen's thoughts on the subject.  To wit:

It's my personal opinion that given the landscape of women's MMA right now, it isn't necessarily prudent to produce rankings. Beyond the pronounced fracturing of the talent pool and the fact it undermines the ability for top women to fight each other, there are severe logistical problems, the chiefest of which is weight divisions. Although any rankings Sherdog.com publish will be based on MMA's authentic weight classes under the Unified Rules, women's MMA hasn't exactly adhered to them rigorously thus far.

More than ProElite's inane weight classes, Japanese MMA, where a huge bulk of top female fighters ply their trade, is all-over-the-map with its weight classes. One of the world's best women, Satoko Shinashi, fights in Deep's 99-pound class. 58 kilograms, or 128 pounds, is often used as a weight division in Japan, as well.

On top of arguably the biggest market for women's MMA often employing garbled weight classes, there's presently a disproportionate amount of women's bouts in MMA that take place at catch-weights, as many women have yet to find their most suitable weight class, or because of the other most pressing issue: depth.

...

You're spot on in the assessment that rankings -- especially for developing realms like the sub-lightweight divisions and women's MMA -- can be seriously influential in mobilizing promoters. However, the raison d'etre for rankings should be primarily to offer a picture as to whom the sport's most objectively accomplished and meritorious fighters are. Its ability to put ideas in the heads of fans and promoters are a fantastic side effect, but should never be confused with their purpose.

Certainly, at some point female mixed martial artists deserve to be ranked like their male counterparts.  Breen highlights several key difficulties which make the ranking of women nearly impossible if your goal is, in fact, to develop an honest pecking order of the top fighters.  This is not any sort of indictment of female MMA; it's merely the reality of the situation.

Two conditions need to be met before any type of quality rankings can be produced.  First, the pool of female talent must deepen.  This is very much a subjective measure, because it would be hard to produce a definitive number of necessary female competitors.  The fact that some women are inclined to often float between weight classes and catch-weight bouts are quite frequent indicates to me that there aren't enough top-level competitors - that have been identified as such - to produce an accurate set of rankings.

Secondly, there must be much more adherence to a set of weight classes across promotions.  It's difficult to know which fighters are best at any particular weight class when one promotion emphasizes say 140 pounds as opposed to a more traditional 145 pounds.  You could conceivably put these two classes together in a set of rankings, but it will be at the expense of accuracy.  Weight does matter, especially when one is attempting to identify the top fighters at a given size.

Rankings should be reflective of the athletic accomplishments of those being ranked. If the product is merely a popularity contest or guesswork is too big a part of the process, the results are basically worthless.  It goes back to development.  Female MMA isn't at a point where rankings can be made meaningful, in my opinion.  This is not necessarily a bad thing.  The environment is simply too unsettled, and the infrastructure has yet to be fully constructed.

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All of this should be cleared up once women fight in a promotion that is stable, features women fighting (like EliteXC was doing and Strikeforce plans on doing) and when the talent pool grows. With shows on Showtime and CBS, I think it is heading in the right direction, that the rankings will fix themselves and fill up with talent.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Mar 5, 2009 6:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Also,

People were saying the same about BWs and FWs for men and didn’t even rank them.
Now because of the WEC, DREAM, and Sengoku, the lighter weights are getting more recognition and the rankings and pool will build itself up.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Mar 5, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You may be correct. An accurate assessment could be produced in the future.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

The point isn’t that women’s rankings will never work, just that they don’t right now. I’m not sure I fully agree with that, but there’s an argument there.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Mar 5, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This should be in the fan post section and the other WAMMA Female Ranking’s story should be on the main page.

Press Release with multiple opinions on message board vs Opinion article w/ one opinion.

by bignerd on Mar 5, 2009 6:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Your argument makes no sense to me. This article isn’t about WAMMA, specifically. You’re free to voice your opinion here or there or both. It makes no difference to me.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, no coincidence?

by bignerd on Mar 5, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t say that the two posts weren’t related. I said that the WAMMA rankings were a “joke” for various reasons in the comments section of the FanPost. I read the pieces by Breen several days ago and agreed with him for the most part. Since the author of the FanPost and others wanted to know what the problems were with the rankings, I felt this was as good a time as any to make my case. I chose not to delve into the WAMMA aspect, because it wasn’t my principle objection. Besides, we’ve been down that road in regard to the body’s legitimacy.

This site provides news and commentary, including our opinions, about the goings on of MMA.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

An opinion piece by Jordan Breen is more newsworthy than a press release by WAMMA, though.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Mar 5, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 5, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well..

sorry to say but tough shit. I don’t want to sound like a jerk but the staff opinions get front page over fanposts. Take the attitude somewhere else

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 5, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you going Sam Caplan on me?

You can put whatever you want on the front page. Just stating my opinion, this story is more narrow cast and the WAMMA piece already encapsulates this story’s main theme along with many other topics.

by bignerd on Mar 5, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm telling you..

to not come into the comment section of an article by staff and downgrade it. If that’s “going Sam Caplan” then yes…I am “going Sam Caplan on you”

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 5, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to say one thing although your entire position is bogus, in my opinion.

This piece is not “more narrow cast.” I’m glad MMA Supremacy did his post. It has sparked quite a lot of debate. This opinion piece encapsulates all female rankings and not just one body’s as stated through a press release. If you don’t care for my opinion, then join the club. If you want to point out the pitfalls in my argument, fine. You’re not going to get very far in trying to tell us how to organize this site.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re not going to get very far in trying to tell us how to organize this site.

My comment was more to redirect the audience than influence the staff . . . I know better.

by bignerd on Mar 5, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It seems that at this point it would make the most sense to stick to a P4P-type ranking for females. Since any of the more accessible (okay, ProElite/EliteXC) women’s matches are contested at these catch weights (or the weight class of the heavier fighter), this is the only useful way to rank these athletes.

by The Axe on Mar 5, 2009 6:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Like these!

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Mar 5, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Satoko Shinashi only fights scrubs. She is the female equivalent of Jason Reinhardt. She is 29-2 and the last girl she fought is 4-14. The fighters she has defeated have a combined record of 110-134 and ten of those girls have still never gotten a pro win. Also one of her losses is to a girl who is 1-1

by EazyEismydad on Mar 5, 2009 6:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

and that loss was just two fights ago

by EazyEismydad on Mar 5, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fedor fought scrubs for a while too….

by The Axe on Mar 5, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When she was 11-0-1 she took on 4 fights in a row against women with a combined record of 0-14

by EazyEismydad on Mar 6, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is "chiefest" a word?

Isn’t “chief” as an adjective like “perfect,” in that you either are or you aren’t, there aren’t degrees of it?

Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion

by The Kittitas Kid on Mar 5, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It’s a staple in the vocabulary of Breenworld.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We do the best we can

With womens rankings!

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Mar 5, 2009 10:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Your rankings are far superior to that of WAMMA. I don’t mean to criticize. You’ve got the best model that I’m aware of in regard to women. I just don’t see rankings with specific weight classes being all that productive.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 5, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is partially a WAMMA Issue. They put Carano & Cyborg at the top of their rankings. It is rather obvious that they want to crown the winner of their potential fight as a WAMMA Champion. Neither really has any business being at the top of any rankings. The women competing over in Japan really do, as that is where the top talent is right now.

by AlwaysRelaxing on Mar 5, 2009 10:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

How many top women in Japan fight at 145?

by MMASuPreMaCy on Mar 6, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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