Ding Dong, The Myth is Dead (or is it?)
Consider the following two statements:
"Alistair Overeem will knock out Badr Hari, and go 50/50 with Remy Bonjasky."
"Anderson Silva can hang with Roy Jones Jr."
If the following statements were made in December 2008, following the K-1 Grand Prix, it's hard to say which would have been mocked more.
One of the most persistent stories among fight fans is the idea that mixed martial artists do not have anywhere near the level of striking that K-1 fighters or boxers have. Most examples of fighters crossing over are easily dismissed because the MMA fighters fight low-end or washed up fighters, but the Alistair Overeem example has arguably blown the myth wide open.
Overeem has roots in kickboxing, but he has never been considered an elite striker in MMA. He will now be considered as such, only because of his performances in K-1. For most of his career, Overeem was a gatekeeper to the top. He beat guys he should beat, but lost to Liddell, Arona, Nogueira, Shogun (twice), and Kharitonov. It's not that he was out-struck in all of these fights, but he hardly ever overwhelmed fighters the way Mirko did in his early days.
Is everyone as sure as they were just a few months ago that Melvin Manhoef would destroy Anderson Silva in a kickboxing match? Is there still no chance that Silva could hang with a boxer well past his prime if he was given significant time to train for the fight? I can't even imagine what a Silva-Jones fight would even look like, because I've never seen the current Anderson Silva do pure boxing, but I think the time for such surefire assumptions is behind us.
Perhaps MMA strikers have been underrated. Maybe their exposure to western boxing gives them an advantage over a lot of K-1 fighters. Maybe their exposure to Thai boxing and other striking styles would give them an advantage in a boxing fight. Maybe doing so many things makes them very adaptable, or maybe the fact that they're used to getting hit with small gloves makes them very durable.
It's hard to say, but Alistair Overeem has destroyed the persistent myth that a good MMA striker would be destroyed by any decent K-1 striker. Is he an aberration, or a sign of things to come?
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I still don't buy it...
I doubt that Anderson Silva has the boxing skills of anything near a Prince Badi Ajamu or an old Tito Trinidad or Omar Sheika. I think MMA guys can hang in K-1 because it allows for the use of more varied weapons. But boxing is completely footwork, defense and punching and the guys that do this at a high level are not going to be tested by guys who are just making their entrance into the game. K-1 you’re able to mix various ranges, punches, kicks…etc. Boxing you’re standing with subtle defensive maneuvers and punching.
Jones was able to go 12 rounds with Joe Calzaghe this past year and even dropped him with a punch early on. He obviously was dominated for the rest of the fight, but I don’t see any way that Anderson Silva can win a boxing match with the guy.
The K-1 myth is busted. Boxing is just a different situation
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 30, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Brent, though I’m not sure if the “K-1 myth” is busted. Yet, anyway. Yes, Overeem destroyed Hari, but it was a guy he outweighs by 20ish pounds (IIRC) who is known to have a poor defense and chin. And if you believe Remi, he hurt his knee leading up to this fight.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Mar 30, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both of these. I think the key word is sublety. The room for error is much higher in MMA and very low in boxing. K-1 is somewhere between. The myth is made from people moving K-1 closer to boxing in sublety and skill. But the truth is that its closer to MMA. And as MMA matures it moves closer to boxing, but it will never close the gap simply because there is to wide of a range of skills to master.
by szucconi on Mar 30, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even taking what you say here at face value, the myth is still busted. The myth being the idea that a good MMA striker would be killed by an average level K-1 striker. It was talked about in terms almost like what would happen if a male tennis player played a female tennis player. The discrepancy is nowhere near as big as people thought.
by Michael Rome on Mar 30, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The K-1 myth has been busted. Which isn’t a shock to me, because I have never thought K-1 is as great as some people have tried to make it seem.
I think boxing is a completely different beast. One that most MMA fighters would get KO’d against the top tier boxers. Especially in the lower weight classes. Boxing has a large pool of athletes to draw from. And those guys are so good. Now, when it gets to Middleweight (160lbs) and above, I think some MMA fighters could do okay, but not great. Boxing doesn’t hve a lot of great boxers in the higher weight divisions. This would help MMA fighters.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Mar 30, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a firm believer that the best MMA fighter can take on the best K-1 fighter. K-1 don’t really have the best fighters in the world, no matter how much they lead us to believe that.
However, I don’t think that is the case with boxing. For one, a boxer skill set is extremely small and focused which means that a small discrepancy in skill can cause big mismatches. The biggest reason why I don’t think MMA fighters can take on the best in boxing is the talent. Talents in MMA can be striking, wrestling, JJ, or a combination of them. The talents in boxing is very specialized. If MMA fighters are amazing at punching and dodging, they would all be boxers instead. We all know the best boxers in the world don’t necessarily finish fights. And if winning fights by points is the point of the game, most of us wouldn’t be MMA fans.
by cyph on Mar 30, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t seen enough for the K-1 myth to be busted, but you’re right about boxing. There are so many layers to boxing; you’d have to spend some serious time training and gaining experience in order to hang with the studs in boxing. No way Anderson wins against Jones.
by pud333 on Mar 30, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, Roy Jones is one of the best boxers in the history of the sport. He has def lost a step or 2 from his doninance when he was younger but there is no way Silva could beat him in a pure boxing fight. No way. Jones has been boxing since he was like 6. And this is the current Jones I’m talking about. Nevermind the Jones that was at his most dominant. He would have KO’d Silva in the 1st round or just played with him for a few rounds before doing so.
by Bigperm on Mar 30, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if he would knock him out in the first round but i don’t see how Silva could mount any offense. Jones’ head movement and hand speed in his prime were amazing even when compared to the best boxers in the world. Lets say Silva’s natural ability and MMA training allow him to step into a boxing ring as an average professional boxer (this would be an amazing feat in itself), the Jones of old crushed good boxers and Jones right now is still an above average professional boxer (definitely not a contender but would beat the stuffing out of any journeymen sent his way.) I just don’t see how Silva beats Jones.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Mar 30, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not quite on board
I think Silva would get schooled by Jones Jr. in boxing. Hand speed and sheer power alone outclasses Silva. I love the guy as much as the next and I love MMA but this is not a good point of discussion for a comparison of the two sports. Overeem has done us all proud by kicking Badr Hari’s ass and hanging tough with Remy but these instances are still the exception to the rule in my opinion.
By the way, you said you never saw Anderson purely box. Here is a video of him sparring with Big Nog. Not the greatest example, but you get a small taste anyway.
by Nick Travaglini on Mar 30, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My point isn’t so much that because the K-1 myth is busted the boxing is too, just that very similar assumptions went behind both, and one of them is busted now, and until we see actual crossover and proof any widespread surefire assumptions are misplaced.
I understand all the points made above, but I can find you hundreds of similar posts made over the past few years by K-1 and kickboxing fans.
by Michael Rome on Mar 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...but they're not as smart as me...
kidding of course.
I just think there is a huge gap between “entry level in K-1” and “entry level in boxing”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 30, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is the key point. Boxing draws from a HUGE pool of athletes who begin training in the sport from very early in their youth.
To use an estimate lets say that boxing has 100 times the athlete pool that MMA has (some of you will scoff but MMA didn’t really exist when most of the guys fighting now were born so I think this is an EXTREMELY conservative estimate). Is it possible that in the much smaller pool MMA has found athletes who’s natural abilities and mixed martial arts training would allow them to beat most professional boxers? Yes, but the odds are extremely limited that this person wouldn’t have jumped ship to boxing given the fact that the pay differences if they even existed.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Mar 30, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well they are highly talented athletes so of course they could transfer to a similar sport fairly well.
Also, MMA strikers tend to get a bad rap because they have to worry about all sorts of things that K-1 guys don’t have to worry about. For instance, all those kick dumps Overeem were doing to Bonjanksy would have been HUGE in an MMA match, but were just an annoyance in a K-1 match. Not having to worry about takedowns at all, or even slipping, has got to help make a fighters standup look a lot better.
One of the issues I have with K-1 is that their weight classes are a bit… open ended. A guy the size of Overeem or Semy shouldn’t be getting in the ring with guys like Hari and Bonjansky. SO I think Overeems performance is a bit better than it would seem. He was fighting guys who could easily make LHW in the UFC when he’s at 240 pounds or so.
by toxic on Mar 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I watched the knockdown, I think it was a legitimate knockdown. He clocked him, he wobbled for a sec and fell. It wasn’t an off balance/forward momentum thing, he was genuinely knocked down by the blow.
by toxic on Mar 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the least knocked down way possible, he was knocked down by the blow is what I mean.
by toxic on Mar 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was the only meaningful thing Remy did the whole fight though, that doesn’t warrant a UD. Should have been Round 4.
by Pandanus on Mar 31, 2009 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quinton Jackson-Cyril Abidi should remind us that this post is probably seven years late…
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 30, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious??
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That must be it. Because before this, when did an MMA star ever beat an amazing K-1 striker?
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 30, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing K-1 striker? I thought we were talking about Cyril Abidi.
by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was 14-5 at the time. K-1 has been a bit of a parody promotion ever since. Hoost’s bizarre K-1 Grand Prix win didn’t help. Honestly, since the mid 1990’s heyday, has anyone really believed in the K-1 myth? After the division has been dominated by retreads and a mid-level MMA guy? Really?
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 30, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with Snowden. Perhaps you can call him a ‘serious newb’ (completely unwarranted comment if you ask me) if you’re looking at the win with some sort of revisionist history glasses. Abidi was hot shit back then and it was not a victory to be taken lightly. Sure, he had an extremely steep decline but that’s not to say at the time it wasn’t a big (and surprising) win for Rampage.
by ilostmydog on Mar 30, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently pointing out the fight’s historical context makes you a “newb.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 30, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word. We’ll both have to remember that the quality of a win can only be based on the loser’s record five years later.
by ilostmydog on Mar 30, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoogy like to shake things up like that. Don’t take it personally.
by szucconi on Mar 30, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abidi was already starting to cool off before Rampage got to him. Sure, it was a big win for Rampage at the time, but again, a single fight against an ok K-1 fighter doesn’t extrapolate into a trend.
As for Schilt… obviously being a gigantic dude who is proficient at muay thai had more to do with his reign than his MMA background. I would concede that with no upper weight limit, giants with serviceable skills can sometimes beat elite fighters because of the size advantage.
by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then say that, don’t just call people newbs, this is not an online rpg. Read “Total MMA”. I think you are capable of making your point without being a d-bag.
by szucconi on Mar 30, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geez, lighten up a bit. What is Total MMA?
by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its a book. Its pretty great. And it was writen by this Jonathan Snowden fellow. He did his homework and calling him a newb is out of line.
by szucconi on Mar 30, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think most of the K-1 MAX guys would wreck their MMA counterparts. I think K-1 still has the upper hand in most matches. But I definitely won’t count out any MMA fighter who fights in K-1.
Some K-1 wins over MMA fighters:
Buakaw KO’d Kultar Gill
Ernesto Hoost TKO’d Igor Vovchanchyn
Masato beat JZ Calvancanti and Kid Yamamoto
Kaoklai KO’d Denis Kang
Mike Zambidis KO’d Kid Yamamoto
Ray Sefo KO’d Marvin Eastman
Remy Bonjasky KO’d Vernon White
How bout full muay-thai rules? Yodsanklai vs. BJ Penn? Please.
"Because I rode in here on my fucking Thunderhorse and handled business."
by skeed on Mar 30, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
K-1 myth is broken, but I blame it mostly on the fact that K-1 level strikers aren’t accustomed to clinch-type of boxing in the K-1 ring.
It’s easily noticeable over the last few MMA vs. K-1 matchups that getting inside is the doom of all K-1 strikers. Why is this? Because in most K-1 matchups, these guys aren’t moving to the inside or trying to get in clinching distance. They are trying to strategically stand toe-to-toe and out “chess” their opponents with fists. It’s like the honor code at times in K-1. We won’t bully each other in the ropes and dirty box… no no… we’ll give each other the distance and make this a war.
Overeem had the perfect gameplan, as did Mousasi and Kawajiri. Make it a brawl, make it a scramble, and get inside.
Boxing would be much different because… they already do this.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Interesting take. It would make sense, given the premium placed on footwork in boxing, half of which is about controlling distance. Huh.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Mar 30, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve noticed the same progression in all of the recent K-1 vs. MMA bouts, but specifically Kawajiri and Mousasi’s bouts. They worked that exact gameplan perfectly. Their opponents had no idea what to actually do during the scrambles, and were subsequently knocked out.
Had Bonjasky actually had a 100% knee, it may have been different. Bonjasky is a bit away from the mold in that he can actually throw devastating flying knees in close quarters along with kicks.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are two pieces to this puzzle
MMA strikers are much better that people say and K-1 fighters are no where near as good as people say.
Therefore the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Oh, and Anderson Silva would absolutely massacre at K-1.
by Razreshat on Mar 30, 2009 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Anderson Silva would absolutely massacre at K-1
Anderson’s accuracy and speed would serve him well but he’ll be up against bigger guys and wouldn’t be able to use consecutive knees in the clinch. I don’t think he would do as well as you think he would.
"Because I rode in here on my fucking Thunderhorse and handled business."
by skeed on Mar 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Would you put money on Badr Hari over Anderson Silva?
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Mar 30, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absoulutely.
And Anderson is one of my favorite fighters.
"Because I rode in here on my fucking Thunderhorse and handled business."
by skeed on Mar 30, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*Absolutely.
"Because I rode in here on my fucking Thunderhorse and handled business."
by skeed on Mar 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by “put money on Badr Hari over Anderson Silva” you mean “buy that PPV in a heart beat,” then yes. :-)
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Mar 30, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would buy that PPV also. I think Badr would have a chance, I think he has a good chance to beat anyone on any given night. But I would put my money on Anderson. Much more technical striking, no proven chin problems and he always stays composed.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Mar 30, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that Rome is correct to state that things cannot be viewed as cut and dry as they once were, I think a couple important factors are being overlooked.
First, I believe that as you go down in weight, you would see that the difference in skill between a high level boxer or K1 fighter vs a high level MMA striker would increase.
The level of precision and skill at the lower weight classes is significant.
At the higher weight classes, power can make up for a lack of skill, this is equally true for a boxer, K1 fighter of MMA fighter.
Second the difference between boxing and MMA is much greater than the difference between K1 and MMA. Many aspects of K1 transfer over to the standup game in MMA as both disciplines are largely based on Muay Thai.
A boxing stance is totally different than anything used in MMA.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Mar 30, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Rome, but you don’t appear to have learned anything from when you made this proclaimation last time. Writing off the usual points made by K-1 fans doesn’t make your analysis any less precocious or incomplete.
The fact is, Overeem IS one of the elite strikers in MMA in terms of skills, and he has been for years. Losing on the ground to Arona, Rogerio and Shogun (twice) has no bearing on that. He isn’t a traditional technical kickboxer, but he has an incredible array of attacks and the athleticism to mix them up in creative ways.
As I predicted, Overeem gave Bonjasky some trouble due to his ability to press inside and rough him up with short knees and punches. But even if you accept that Overeem was dictating the pace and score the 2nd round 10-8 for him, it would still have been a draw and gone to an extension round. And given Remy’s total lack of aerial attacks, I tend to believe his explanation of a pre-fight knee injury.
Even if Overeem had beaten a well-rested Hari and gone even with an injury-free Bonjasky, his performance in two fights cannot be extrapolated into some larger trend when it comes to “MMA strikers”. The idea that K-1 fighters being superior strikers to MMA fighters has been proven as a “myth” based on a couple of fighters winning a couple of matches is silly and adversarial. No “MMA striker” has ever had consistent success in K-1, or come close to winning a tournament. In MAX, several “good MMA strikers” have competed and been handled quite easily. If Kenny Florian or Diego Sanchez were invited to MAX, I am quite confident they would be embarrassed in brutal fashion.
To sum it up, there are a very small amount of elite MMA fighters who might be able to look competitive in K-1 (Overeem, Mousasi, Lyoto, Anderson come to mind), but your theory is totally wrong and you should probably watch more K-1 before you jump to conclusions (again).
by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I tend to agree that most MMA fighters would have a huge disadvantage to anyone in MAX. MAX seems to be much more higher pace due to the lighter weights, but those guys are adept to mixing it up on the inside as well.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoog
This is a smart comment. No question. And I’m guilty of being a jerk, too, but can you ease up on the tone? No need to be so harsh. Your points stand on their own. They don’t need any help.
by Luke Thomas on Mar 30, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not intended to be harsh, but we already went over all this once after Dynamite. I think Mr. Rome has already decided his conclusion is correct and he is searching for things to justify it.
by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see your point regarding k-1, and tend to agree
but i still don’t see silva anywhere close to being able to “hang with roy jones, jr.”
by dr. ransom on Mar 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Having just watched Overeem’s K-1 matches, I have to say his striking looked absolutely horrible to me. Makes me wonder just how good these K-1 guys really are.
by MMARich on Mar 30, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Funny out of all the internet myth’s this is probably the last one i’d thought I’d see a post about.
by Raker on Mar 30, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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