K-1 vs. MMA showdown: Bonjasky unimpressive in generous judge's decision win over Overeem

by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 9:27 AM EDT

22b_medium The K-1 World Grand Prix event this weekend was hailed as surprising, mediocre, and disappointing depending on who watched the event in the wee hours of the morning on Saturday. There were uneven matchups, surprising knockouts, and a crazy-haired Keijiro Maeda surprised both favorite Melvin Manhoef and Gohkan Saki will spirited performances that earned him the K-1 Heavyweight tournament title for the evening.

The bigger storyline involved K-1 champion Remy Bonjasky in an epic tilt to prove the K-1 world wasn't going to allow a transitioning MMA to K-1 fighter like Alistair Overeem to impose his will inside the ring. As the sun rose here in the States and we all struggled to maintain our coffee fix, Bonjasky squeaked out what could be seen as a generous decision win.

Bonjasky had this to say post-fight:

"My performance today was not my best. Honestly, on Thursday when I was asked by a fan for a photo while having dinner, and I stood up and twisted my knee. I wanted to cancel the fight, but after discussing it with K-1 and a doctor, we decided to continue. This is why I couldn’t do my usual flying knees and running around, so I apologize for that. It seems like I partially tore my meniscus, it was incredibly painful. To defend the name of K-1 was a lot of pressure, but it felt good to knock Alistair down. If I didn’t get the down it would have seemed like a draw. I wanted to finish him but my coach told me to not take any risks, and just take the win."

It was definitely obvious that Bonjasky was rather hesitant to throw any of his patented flying knees or kicks even in close quarters with the beefier Overeem. The more obvious question, however, out of the matchup was the judging.

Overeem battered Bonjasky for two rounds, and at one moment, looked to potentially have Bonjasky hurt in the ropes. By some miracle, Bonjasky was still able to garner 10-10 draw rounds in the first two rounds.

Many fans complained of the judging, but K-1's system does not revolve around a 10 point must system, and it also is hard to say what warrants a 10-9 round from a competitor. Unlike MMA, aggression, control in the ring, and working your opponent isn't that high on the point scale. Landing strikes is the most significant mark of winning a fight, but even in that state of judging, Overeem was the clear winner of round 1 and 2.

Bonjasky landed a flush right in the third, downing Overeem for the standing 8 count. The judges scored the round a winner for Bonjasky with the included knockdown, 10-8's across the board. Since Bonjasky earned 10-10 draw for the two earlier rounds, the clear cut winner was Bonjasky.

In my mind, this at least should have went to an extension round. Overeem earned 10-9 rounds in the first two rounds, and Bonjasky earning a 10-8's across the board in the third warrants a fourth round showdown.

It really leads to asking the question: What's going on with the judging? While many fans would throw out that the "fix was in!", I'll hold my breath and see what happens in the coming weeks in terms of Overeem talking up a storm and potentially seeing another matchup down the road in K-1. Perhaps an even larger story could be... should Ray Sefo even commentate anymore? His pure love/hate relationships with older fighters vs. the young fighters is sickening.

Image courtesy of k-1sport.de

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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Comments

I have yet to master the K1 scoring, but I agree completely with your assessment.

AO easily won the first 2 rounds, imo, and the knockdown by Remy was not damaging, AO was off balance. I didn’t rewatch when Remy went down and they didnt call it a knockdown, but it looked like one to me.

They were handing out extension rounds like condoms at the free clinic, so I wouldn’t have minded seeing one more.

If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.

by BJJDenver on Mar 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions

I’ve read a few assessments stating Remy vs. Overeem was a draw first round, which could possibly be scored that way.

The big controversy was the “slip” KD in the second round, and whether or not it actually was one. It’s definitely a marred match in my opinion.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

I thought Round 1 was pretty even and Round 2 should have been 10-8 Overeem. So yeah, I would have liked to see an extension round too

by smoogy on Mar 30, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I was mulling writing something similar, but I thought I was the only one that gave a shit (seeing as I haven’t heard anything else around here). Overeem definitely got robbed. I felt a little embarrassed for Remy when he was returning the Oscar to Alistair because I was like “Dude, you just got outclassed for most of that fight”. I was stunned to see that the one knockdown was considered the winning blow. He caught Overeem flush, but to be quite honest, I think his going down was as much a product of his position when he was struck as it was that Remy plugged him. If that constitutes a 10-8 round, they need to reevaluate their criteria.

Also, I have Jerome pretty clearly winning both of his extension rounds against Ewerton. The second round, which was awarded to Ewerton, was comprised mostly of LeBanner landing well chosen jabs and defending all of Texeira’s kicks. So he essentially won for staying more busy? That’s clearly not the point. So there was some sketchy shit abound in a couple fights..

I did personally enjoy the card, aside from those judging curiosities. Aerts was a joy to watch and I was pleasantly surprised by Maeda’s rise to the title.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Mar 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions

Well, the problem was that in our eyes, one knockdown as the winning blow was bullshit, but it wasn’t bullshit when you consider the two 10-10 draw rounds. Most fans watching felt those were ALSO bullshit, so it just completely screwed the entire feel of the matchup. It was a 10-8 round only because of the knockdown plus Remy winning the round. It would have likely went 10-9 if he had not gotten the knockdown, OR a 10-10 draw again to a fourth extension round, which I would have liked to see.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions

Great show overall,

I really only DVR’d it to see Manhoef and AO but ended up watching all but one of the fights. AO fight was a HUGE letdown. At one point it seemed like he was just toying with him. He should have put it on overdrive and Bon would a been finished.

Oh well… =/

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Mar 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions

Had AO known that Remy had a twisted knee and couldn’t throw down those flying knees and kicks, AO probably would have just bumrushed him and crushed him inside one round. Remy’s flying knees and kicks even in close distance really set him apart from the K-1 stable of fighters.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions

It was pretty wild to see him throw Remy to the mat like he did several times. Just rag-dolled him..

by Blackout612 on Mar 30, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Remy can expect a lot more Oscars in his future with statements like that.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions

I think you’re way off base here. Sure, Overeem was able to bully his way into the corner against Bonjasky, but none of his strikes landes, save for a few knees to the thighs of Remy. Remy landed the only meaningful strikes in the bout (including some hard kicks to Overeems legs and body), and thoroughly outboxed him (which lead to the 3’rd round knockdown), while blocking any punches Allistair threw at him.

Also, Overeem fought a very dirty fight. In K-1, you’re not supposed to execute takedowns as frequently as Allistair did, and you’re not supposed to clinch as much as they did (which is seen as a sign of weakness, playing into the minds of the judges that Overeem felt the necessity to take Bonjasky down).

I gave the 1’st and 3’rd rounds clearly to Remy, with the 2’nd being a bit of a toss- up. However, you have to remember that Overeem, in his 2’nd K-1 bout, was able to go the distance with a 3- time world champ, and give him some trouble at times. That, in and of itself, is impressive (similar to how Kid’s performances against Masato and Zambidis were impressive).

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Mar 30, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions

I disagree. I don’t think Bonjasky outboxed Overeem in round 1. Round three was a bit of a different story, and I think Remy could have warranted a 10-8 round by the judges easily with the knockdown. But round 1 could have went a couple of different ways in my mind:

Overeem wins via damage
Overeem draws with Bonjasky <—- what happened

I was more inclined to think it was a draw over damage, but the case that Overeem won the round is heavy. He was more aggressive, landed some solid strikes inside, while Remy landed some decent jabs. I think Overeem did more damage however. Draw, I can see.

I’m not sure where the “impressive” remarks are coming from. I think Overeem was impressive for a K-1 fight and taking on the champ. Bonjasky was the unimpressive one.

Also, leg kicks generally aren’t seen as scoring hugely in K-1 bouts. They are definitely huge if it visibly shows damage and the reluctance of their opponent to engage. I didn’t see any of that. Overeem’s inside presence and clinching was a bit much, and it could have warranted a penalty, but as I’ve said in the past, the way to beating K-1 fighters is that exact gameplan. Most K-1 guys tend to stand toe-to-toe and play chess in the striking department.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Mar 30, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I WILL EXPLAIN IT TO YOU GUYS!!!

If there is no knockdown or incredible one sided beatdown, it is 10-10.

If there is an incredibly one sided affair but no knockdowns (10-9), usually NEVER happens and not really given out since they want people to go into the extra rounds so the fighters can determine a definite winner and not just win by decisions.

If there is a knockdown, it is a 10-8.

Although many of you who are new to K-1 may disagree, a knockdown of Overeem from a Remy punch was the deciding factor of the fight, and he won. Overeem throwing around Remy around in the ring was not legal and didn’t count for anything.

That’s all there is too it really. If you are trying to break this thing down round by round like in boxing, you have this thing all wrong.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Mar 30, 2009 1:53 PM EDT reply actions

Based on any criteria

There was no consistency in the judging. You think Texeira scored 10-9 in the final extension round with LeBanner? If anything, that fight was a draw. Up and down the card, the judging seemed to lack any science whatsoever.

by Blackout612 on Mar 30, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I mean yeah, the Le Banner vs Texeira was a bit iffy, but all others fit the bill.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Mar 30, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

You’re accusing people here of not knowing the criteria, but the biggest kickboxing fan in the whole joint (Smoogy) disagrees with your assessment of the first two rounds. I enjoyed the show, but the judging was uneven in more than the LeBanner/Texeira bout. It’s not as though travesties were abound, but it was curious.

by Blackout612 on Mar 30, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions

It seems like an influx of MMA fans who aren’t familiar with K-1 judging criteria is partially the reason for this manufactured controversy. On no forum I’ve looked at devoted to K-1 is anybody really arguing that anyone won round one. Round two is split between guys thinkings it was 10-9 AO and guys thinking it was 10-10. Round three is consensus 10-8 Remy.

There’s more bitching about the Texeira/JLB fight than this one on K-1 forums. In general, most people feel the extensions were relatively unwarranted.

by ilostmydog on Mar 30, 2009 4:45 PM EDT reply actions

Imagine that… K-1 fans weren’t upset that Bonjasky won. I can’t imagine why they’re not upset that Overeem, an MMA fighter lost who would have discredited the entire K-1 “elite kickboxing” had he won.

It’s not that MMA fans don’t understand K-1 judging. It’s the K-1 judging that’s on straight up crack. It’s built for easy manipulation for the favored fighter.

by cyph on Mar 30, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m pretty sure if Overeem won it wouldn’t have discredited anything. That’s like saying Mark Kerr winning ADCC discredited the entire BJJ “elite grappling” thing.

And you are making this too much MMA vs. K-1. I can imagine that you are only upset because of your MMA/UFC avatar and this match proving that K-1 strikers are leagues above their MMA counterparts (sarcasm).

And yes, it is about MMA fans not understanding K-1 judging. If anyone argues round one goes to either fighter, they clearly think this is some kind of MMA fight where you can just barely win a round. It’s not. If you’re arguing that round three should’ve been a 9-8 or 9-9 round, you don’t understand K-1 judging. Overeem can’t pull off a round like that after getting KD’ed unless he completely kills Remy with ridiculous amounts of clean shots. He didn’t.

This situation is completely analagous to when Joachim Hansen beat Takanori Gomi. People were saying that Gomi won because they thought he won two out of three rounds. They didn’t know about Shooto’s catch rule, they didn’t note that Shooto judges usually give out 10-10s in very close rounds, and they couldn’t name any judging criteria of Shooto. Yet, just like this time, they were experts who had watched Shooto forever just because they saw the fight on the internet.

Finally, you’ve followed me around to what, three threads now? Let me summarize your entire argument in a nutshell:

- K-1 had to cheat to win because they are Japanese and have a history of doing so
- the first two rounds were not possibly draws – no reason given why, they just weren’t possibly draws
- their was blatant biased judging and refereeing (despite Kakuda being extremely lenient when it came to Overeem throwing Remy to the ground and clinching)
- if anyone disagrees with this argument it is because they are a K-1 fan who is happy because a Bonjasky loss would have discredited all K-1! (as if Mark Hunt hadn’t done this already)

by ilostmydog on Mar 30, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs