Should Kim Couture Be on the Televised Portion of Strikeforce's May Show?
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 17, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
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The position of Ryan at Fight Linker is fairly easy to explain. He believes Couture's inclusion on the televised portion of the May event is "complete bullshit." Ryan points out that she's there as a name and doesn't deserve to be elevated above other female fighters who have more experience and more advanced sets of skills. Another writer from Fight Linker, Shawn, has a different take on Couture and female MMA as a whole:
What we all need to remember is that until women’s MMA gains some traction here in the states, Strikeforce is going to continue the EliteXC model of promoting women — and rightfully so. They’ll focus on women who are are hot (Michelle Waterson), can kick the shit out of people (Cyborg Santos), or have both of those qualities (Gina Carano). This isn’t different from how we promote male fighters — or how Hollywood promotes celebrities. Looking at it another way, you are either incredibly talented at your craft (Cyborg), you might be fairly average at your craft but have some other quality that makes you valuable (Waterson), or, ideally, you possess the best of both (Gina). When it comes down to it, you need to stand out.
That’s why all the fuss about Kaitlin Young not getting her contract bought out was unwarranted. She got a ton of exposure fighting on CBS and, despite the loss, she put up a helluva fight. She’ll be able to get fights when she’s good and ready. Despite that, with a 4-2 record, fairly average skills, and nothing entirely spectacular about her that would be overly valuable to a promoter, Strikeforce passed. Kim Couture, on the other hand, has serious name value and, if she can start winning, the audience will grow attached to her and want to see her evolve. Think Forrest Griffin coming off of TUF1.
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The argument could be made that the girl should get more experience in a prelim fight or two before she gets back on TV, but in a time when Strikeforce is desperate for some name value, putting her right back in the spotlight makes sense. Despite that, it will be complete bullshit if she gets matched up with somebody else who doesn’t want to be in the cage with her. But is the simple fact of Kim Couture getting TV time bullshit? No. It’s good business. And who knows — maybe this time she’s involved in an exciting fight.
Both points of view have their merits. Although, I don't agree with the analysis of Kaitlin Young. The problem, however, with rewarding name recognition over talent is that it doesn't foster the development skilled fighters. Most female fighters are at a distinct disadvantage to Kim Couture. They have virtually no current celebrity appeal, and it could be argued that many aren't as blessed in terms of attractiveness. Obviously, MMA doesn't exist in a vacuum. Appearance and celebrity do, and probably always will, help advance the causes of some over those of the majority. Putting a somewhat popular, attractive fighter with one win and one loss on the televised portion of your show relays some sort of message about your promotion.
The message is clear to me. Strikeforce has inked some great fighters, but not many of them can carry an event. Lawler versus Shields as the main event is a stop-gap measure, and the inclusion of Kim Couture on the main card can be better termed as an act of necessity rather than "good business."
My question is, long-term goals of Strikeforce's female division(s) aside, are fight fans interested in a Kim Couture fight? You know what's next.
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So far I have been less then impressed with Strikeforce’s matchmaking on Showtime. Nick Diaz vs. Frank Shamrock at a catchweight. Robbie Lawler vs. Jake Shields at a catch weight. A useless rematch in Josh Thomson vs. Gilbert Melendez. And now Mrs. Couture fighting on the main card.
I have no issues with her fighting. I think it’s great if this is what she loves. I don’t think she should be on the televised portion of the show. There are just too many good, proven female fighters that need to be built up. Does Couture have more name value right now? Absolutely. Why not give that fight to two proven fighters, and let them build up their names sooner rather then later?
This is short term matchmaking, the same matchmaking that really gave me a sour taste in my mouth with EliteXC.
I’m not impressed.
Agreed x 2. They are putting on circus fights for the sake of ratings. I’m wondering if this is the trap or “deal with the devil” kind of stuff you do when you sign your organization away to network TV. I’m guessing this type of stuff is all input from the TV network execs who have no clue about MMA. Probably why Dana refuses to deal with the networks like HBO, etc.
They really do dilute the drinking water.
I would like to see the woman fight.
I really want her to do well but most of all I really want to see what she can do well. I still don’t know much about her. I think womens MMA is going to get a major boost very soon.
She might be one of the worst “name” fighters (If you can cal her a (fighter) I have ever witnessed in the octagon. Seriously, if i was randy, I would be very fearful she might get hurt really bad in there one of these days.
She’s a hot chick that thinks she’s a fighter because she’s married to randy.
Dude...
don’t be disrespectful. She’s a fighter. She is more of a fighter than you, or me, or anyone else on this site except the few that have been in the cage or ring
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 16, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to disagree. I haven’t fought in a cage or ring, but I fight the English language every time I try to do a post. In the end, the best I can hope for is a draw.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 16, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
so you have to be a fighter to give an opinion on this site? Thanks for the info. I’ll keep that in mind.
No...
(If you can cal her a (fighter)
Saying stuff like that is out of line. That isn’t an opinion, it is you being a jerk
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 17, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you are seeing something in my comment that I didn’t mean. I was simply commenting on the fights I have seen her in. you calling me a jerk is taking things a bit over the line. I never called anyone any names.
Dude...
drop it. For real. It’s not up for discussion.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 17, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m Shawn over at Fightlinker.
One of the major criticisms people have of this is based off her abilities in the cage. This argument is both unfair and without merit as she has only competed twice. In her first fight she was put in over her head against someone she wasn’t ready for and in her second fight she was put in against someone who not only ready for Kim but not ready to fight. Clearly, neither of those situations are indicative of her entire skillset as a fighter or her ability to put on an exciting fight.
Another example: War Machine’s fight with Jared Rollins a year or two ago was FOTN material, was an absolute war, and was very exciting to both hardcore fans and those flipping the channel. Neither guy is an elite level fighter; both are mid level at this point in their careers. Yet based on the matchmaking, they both looked like studs.
Do I think Kim Couture is going to be the next Gina Carano? No, I don’t. But what I am saying is that we don’t know. Right now Strikeforce is starting anew and they need to book matches that will be exciting and draw interest in their promotion while they fill out the divisions. Fights like Diaz/Shamrock and Lawler/Shields have little impact on any division but they will draw interest from the MMA fanbase while Strikeforce figures things out and gets the ball rolling. Putting Kim Couture on TV is a gamble but if she wins and puts in a decent performance, she’s somebody that has the combination of looks and proper training that could become a star. She very well might not work out but it’s still early for the revamped promotion.
by dropkick101 on Mar 16, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I’ve successfully smoked out Shawn.
I don’t totally disagree with your argument. My opinion is that there are other ways they could go with a couple of more skilled fighters. I think the end product would likely be better, and you might actually start another woman up the ladder toward some level of stardom. My worry is that many become content in watching the Gina Carano show with some sideshows involving hot fighters. At some point you’ve got to expand the portfolio of known female fighters. I see Kim as being a long way from making a name as a fighter. However, someone like Kaitlin Young could emerge as an exciting, top fighter in the near future.
In short, I just don’t see that much upside with Kim in the near term, and I’m doubtful that she’s a box office hit at this point. The other day I watched Tara LaRosa vs. Shayna Baszler in an old Bodog scrap. It was a great fight. Before someone makes the argument that “well Bodog is out of business,” good female fights aren’t the reason. Put together two of the better female fighters, and I think the potential reward could be far greater than what has been set up so far. Not to put Kim down. She may very well become a fighter to watch. I just don’t think she’s there yet.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 16, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you make a lot of solid points but the problem is that we need to view Strikeforce as a brand new company right now. They’re essentially revamping themselves with the TV deals and influx of new talent. Thus, they’re going to be making decisions right now that incorporate a mix of competitive matchmaking and marketing ploys to grab further media attention. The saying goes something like the only bad attention is no attention at all. While hardcore fans might be excited to see a girl like Kaitlin Young get another shot, the fact that sites like Bloody Elbow, Cage Potato, Sherdog, and Fightlinker are all talking about it is evidence that their little plan is at least starting a conversation.
If in six months or a year from now Strikeforce is still promoting women’s MMA by booking Kim Couture against women not cut out for the sport and booking Gina in squash matches, then we can all have a legitimate gripe. What I’m saying is that right now it’s early and putting Kim out there on Showtime is going to do absolutely nothing to hurt the integrity of women’s MMA or anything like that (unless we have a repeat of her last fight). She either wins and puts on a decent performance or she fails and we don’t see her anymore. Either way, it shouldn’t effect the potential for women like Cyborg Santos, Roxy Modafferi, and Sarah Kaufman to become stars alongside Gina Carano over the next year or so.
Point is, there’s little this is going to do to hurt the sport (or the women’s division) in any way. The Japanese throw stand-up comedians (Bobby Ologun), NFL veterans (Johnnie Morton), and cartoon characters (Kinniku Mantaro) into fights they’re unprepared for in order to spark some interest. EliteXC built their promotion around a guy who fought in internet street fighting videos and worked as a bodyguard for a porn company. If booking Kim Couture — who trains with world class athletes on a daily basis and has done so for a few years — in a televised fight is the biggest sin they make to get a little extra media attention, I think they get a pass.
by dropkick101 on Mar 16, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, this one fight by itself isn’t going to derail the sport. I really see it as more of a safe play. There’s some inherent interest in booking someone to fight in MMA whose last name is Couture. Kim’s a good enough saleswoman as well. I would find this booking somewhat frustrating if I were in the shoes of some of the women you mentioned.
It’s a great match from Gina’s position. Kim or anyone they would match her against isn’t going to be a threat to supplant her as the most popular female fighter. There are fighters that could obtain similar levels of popularity if given the opportunity. I’m quite confident in that notion. A one star sport isn’t an ideal situation as far as I’m concerned. Maybe, Coker will do something about this in time. I’d just like to see some more aggressive action even if they’re trying to establish themselves at the moment. I don’t know if female MMA will be any more successful than other female sports, but I think its only chance involves cultivating a sport with a number of stars.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 16, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely. Gina already has the potential to be a crossover star. If Cyborg destroys some more people on live TV, even more people will be waiting to watch her fight. The more girls they can turn into stars, the bigger women’s MMA will be able to grow.
At the same time, with Strikeforce likely only putting on something like 4 shows a year on CBS, its going to be hard for any girls to really “break out.” The company is going to be spending much needed time further developing fighters like Robbie Lawler and Cung Le into legitimate box office draws, as well as building up their 185 and 155 lb divisions.
With that said, I expect women’s MMA to continue to be the Gina Carano show, with Cyborg playing a supporting role. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing as she is the best candidate to be the face of women’s MMA, despite her problems making weight in the past. The more popular and successful she becomes, the more legitimate women’s MMA will be taken, and the more opportunities hot prospects like Sarah Kaufman will be able to receive.
by dropkick101 on Mar 17, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
IT'S YOU!!!!!!!!
but seriously, I’m on your side here.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 16, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Kim Couture is a 34 year old mother with no extraordinary athletic ability who is only being the afforded this opportunity because of her last name. She is not going to be a legitimate contender in this lifetime, and last time I checked, stretch marks were not sexy. The more I think about your position on the matter, the more retarded it seems. If this is some convoluted joke… congrats, you have amused me.
kim couture is NOT a mother
at least to a child….. :~)
seriously, however, your comments and lack of knowledge only show u r trying to make a valid argument w/o valid facts and just spewing your “retarded” opinion. both dropkick and cannon’s comments are on point, and truly showcase the dilemma facing strikeforce and women’s mma now and in the future.
i suspect u r just a women’s mma hater…and that smoog is really “not sexy” and just plain old at this point.
by theflyingtsunami on Mar 17, 2009 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions
If fights were made only on objective merit half the big names in the UFC would be retired by now.
Womens MMA needs as much attention as it can get. Doesnt really matter from who.
by toxic on Mar 16, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 16, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
So Chyna v The Fabulous Moolah in a cage would work for you?
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 17, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t The Fabulous Moolah dead?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions
The poll results speak for the article
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
I think a lot of people also just hate Kim Couture on GP. I’m not exactly a fan, but it might behoove Strikeforce and womens MMA in genral if she were on the card.
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 16, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s worth noting that the poll asks a different question than the one the article addresses. I voted “no” when asked if I was interested, but had I been asked if she should be on the televised portion of the card, I would have voted “yes.”
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Looking back on it, I think making the poll different from the initial question was a little bit confusing. In the end, I think the poll question gets more to the heart of the issue which is interest. There are all kinds of reasons people can sight for not believing Kim should be on TV, but interest is just about personal preference, really. I think that’s more telling.
As an aside, I don’t think there is anything at all wrong with people not caring to see female fights. I do like to watch the really skilled women show what they can do in the realm of MMA. I think the fair thing to do is to allow these athletes the chance to make their sport successful. I’m curious to see how it all turns out.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 17, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe its sexism but i dont care to watch woman participate in MMA anymore than i want to watch them box, play football, basketball or any other sport. i prefer watching the best participants in whatever the particular sport.
Yep, I believe that’s the definition of sexism.
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 16, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how it’s any different from preferring not to watch high school or college sports. Some prefer only to watch the best athletes compete.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions
But that line of thinking totally precludes women from being great athletes, or in this case martial artists, when the truth is that a Roxanne Modafferi, Sarah Kaufman or Megumi Fujii is arguably more talented than some of the fighters on recent UFC PPVs (and inarguably better than 50-60% of eliminated TUF participants).
To each his own, and I can fully understand that some people don’t dig watching girls scrap, but to me, saying that female fighters can’t be great athletes is sexist. It’s not like the WNBA, a scaled-down version of a game designed specifically for men. It’s fight sport, and the same rules apply across the board, even if the rounds are shorter.
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 17, 2009 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
all the ladies you named may be more talented than their male counterparts but none of them would be able to defeat a man in their same weight class. as for the WNBA it is not a scaled down version of the NBA they play on the exact same court, the only difference i believe is the distance of the 3 point line. if nature had designed women as the bigger, stronger and faster sex i would rather watch them in athletic competition. and i dont think its sexism on my part as i wouldnt want to watch men’s high school or amateur competitions either.
all the ladies you named may be more talented than their male counterparts but none of them would be able to defeat a man in their same weight class.
I disagree. Thankfully we’ll never find out the true answer, unless maybe John Peretti has another braintwitch.
as for the WNBA it is not a scaled down version of the NBA they play on the exact same court, the only difference i believe is the distance of the 3 point line.
Shorter 3-point line, longer shot clock, more fouls allowed, etc. It’s modified rules, scaled down for women.
and i dont think its sexism on my part as i wouldnt want to watch men’s high school or amateur competitions either.
But… they’re not the same thing. At all. I guess we can agree to disagree.
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 17, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Thankfully we’ll never find out the true answer, unless maybe John Peretti has another braintwitch.
Why do you say “thankfully?”
by Michaelthebox on Mar 17, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Because male vs. female MMA matches shouldn’t happen.
Contributor Emeritus - BloodyElbow.com
by Chris Nelson on Mar 17, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
You’re making a big deal about how they rules apply to both and the fighters may be more talented than the male fighters, and you disagree that they couldn’t beat male fighters in their own weight class. So why shouldn’t male vs. female matches happen?
by Michaelthebox on Mar 17, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
If she wasnt good looking and her last name was not Couture she would not be on the card.
That aside, she is going to get beat regardless of who her opponent is.
She reminds me of Gordie Howes kids that played hockey, they were terrible and the only reason they got to play was cause of their dads name.
Well, she’s not bad looking.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions
well i guess its just subjective right?
cause no offense, i actually don’t think she’s anything special..
by Anton Tabuena on Mar 17, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Subjective, sure.
“not bad looking” and “special” are a little far apart.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
attractive girl + bad fighter > ugly girl + good fighter
and there’s also a good chance that we’ll see Gina cornering her again.
i know alot of you guys fantasize about being arm-barred by Gina Carrano, so forgive me. but while both women are more attractive that the average women, i dont think either one of them is particularly attractive. Gina has her cute moments but all in all she is a very “handsome” women.
by #5mmafan on Mar 17, 2009 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
whys everyone hating
on kim couture? shes only fought 3 fights…one was an exhibition match at xtreme couture and one she showed some serious balls by fighting to a decision with a broken jaw!! bravo…and the last fight in november she kicked the other girls ass…it isnt her fault that the chic had no business being in the ring with her. and yea she is only getting on the card because randy is famous but man come on if my dad was a famous athlete i would ride his coattails as far as i could!!! i dont mind watching her fight…but listen everyone thinks shes a horrible fighter and shes just getting started..she runs a gym wich probably means she is training everyday and shes surrounded by top talent so i wouldnt be surprised if her game is a lot better
No not yet, maybe after she gets some more exp under her belt. To put her on just because of her name is kinda lame. Theres plenty of other (hotter) fighters out there right now anyway. :P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
things that make u go hmmm.....
i actually think this is scott coker’s very clever ploy to get gina to sign already and stop being a “hold-out.” coker stated that he has a slot open for gina on the may card, and obviously, it’s on the televised portion. it seems that as time wears on and gina remains ‘holdin’ he then announced kim as being on the may card.
i know she and gina are bff’s and all, but isn’t it interesting for gina to have this offer open for her (gina) to fight right after cyborg w/ the promise for the fall cbs show for their long awaited match (assuming both win their fights) and then now have kim being the one chosen for the televised card.
i highly doubt that if gina signs in time and is on the may card, that they will then broadcast both gina and kim’s fight. no way imo and of course they’re gonna go w/ gina, so therein lies a very interesting scenario for gina. maybe kim’s fight will then be moved to the “first strike” card for up and comers and more newbie type fighters.
i dunno, i think there’s more to this than meets the eye, and i think gina’s in the back of coker and strikeforce’s eye in this decision. time will tell of course.
by theflyingtsunami on Mar 17, 2009 6:29 AM EDT reply actions
Who really cares what they show? Does it really matter that much? More fighting less bitching about everything…
by TruMayheM on Mar 17, 2009 7:34 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Consider this...
She’s terribly untechnical… so she’ll either get spectacularly KO’d or put on an ugly slugfest with some other girl, which will attract casual fans.
Either way, it works.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
No matter what anyone here thinks, Strikeforce is going to do what they want. With that being said, if she is on the televised card let her fight Cyborg. There is a fight I wouldn’t mind watching
Why would you want to see her fight Santos? That would be just a terrible beating.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides the fact that Cyborg is considerably larger.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 17, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That, too.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Mar 18, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
add an option to the poll that says “don’t give a sh*t” :D
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Mar 17, 2009 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The real question is
Who do you prefer to see on the main card that isn’t on the main card?
Most of you probably don’t even know who all is on the undercard, much less the main card.
That question doesn’t matter, because there are a number of fighters (men and women) that Strikeforce could put on the main card who may be better suited than Kim. Personally, I don’t know the answer to whether she should or shouldn’t be there. As far as interest goes, I don’t care to see her fight in a big event on Showtime until she is able to step up her game which she may do in time. I would have rather seen some of the more established female fighters instead of her since it’s doubtful there will be another women’s fight on the main card.
by Cannon Jacques on Mar 18, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
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