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Rankings Make No Sense in Mixed Martial Arts

Note:  This is a long piece, the second half is contained below the fold.

Rankings are probably the most often-debated topic among MMA fans.  Whether it is within a division or the ultra-meaningless pound for pound rankings, the time wasted debating relative positions is astounding.  Here are four reasons any attempt at "objective" rankings make no sense in MMA, which is one of the key reasons WAMMA is a joke.

1)  Four ounce gloves:  In major sports like baseball, basketball, and football, games have a set period of time, and the score at the end determines the winner.  That can be the case in MMA, but it often isn't.  Due to the nature of four ounce gloves, the fact that one fighter would beat another nine out of ten times is not as meaningful as it is in boxing.  Keith Jardine's loss to Houston Alexander is a great example, Jardine would probably beat him 99 times out of 100, but this loss is still held against him in rankings.  Finishes in MMA often don't actually reflect who the better fighter is, the potential for getting caught with a punch or a miracle submission attempt make it very different from other sports.

Lyoto Machida has admitted he almost passed out in Tito Ortiz's triangle.  If Ortiz held on he very well may have won.  If that had happened, it wouldn't change the fact in my view that Machida is multiple levels above Ortiz as a fighter, but it would be used as a noose around Machida's neck in rankings discussions for years.  In MMA the ratio of "shit happens" finishes are much higher than other sports due to the instantaneous nature of the finishes, making logical ranking much more difficult.

2)  Top fighters fight rarely:  In 2008 Lyoto Machida had one fight.  He would have had two if not for Silva's injury.  We don't have nearly enough footage of him recently in comparison to other fighters to really say who is better right now.  Rampage Jackson had two fights, Chuck Liddell had one, Wanderlei Silva had two, Rashad Evans had two, and GSP had two.  Unlike a sport like basketball or baseball where we see tons of games, we see them once or twice in a year, and most of what they do goes on in private training camps.  

We hear reports, but they are unreliable, but the report that Cain Velasquez reportedly gave Machida problems in camp is the kind of story that makes the rankings discussion so frustrating.  If true it is a great sign of his talent, but we don't know if it's true, and if we dismiss any training stories then we dismiss the vast majority of fighting that these guys do.  Frankly, how can one tell if Heath Herring should be ranked above Cain Velasquez if they don't fight?  If you had to decide, knowing how they do in regular sparring sessions with other fighters would really be quite helpful, especially considering how hard these guys spar.  But we don't know, and we're therefore missing a crucial bit of information.

Star-divide

 

3)  Most top fighters don't fight each other:  In MMA Weekly's current top 10 list at 205 pounds, Lyoto Machida has fought exactly one guy there, and it's a guy I don't think has any business being considered one of the 10 best fighters in the world.  

This is completely different from a sport like baseball or basketball where teams play each other multiple times in a season.  We simply do not have the proper information to rank these fighters.  Most have not fought each other, let alone multiple times.  Any attempt to rank one over another is either based on subjective conjecture or finding reasons to boost certain wins or discount certain losses.  In other words, it's completely subjective, which is why threads about this stuff go on for 30 pages.

4)  Fractured nature of the industry:  This is similar to the last point, but the performance of some Pride fighters in the UFC makes old rankings look even more silly.  Rampage was completely discounted as over the hill after his fall in Pride, but he has performed very well in the UFC.  Anderson Silva has also done incredibly well.  On the other hand, Mirko and Shogun looked terrible.  The fact that they were fighting different people in a different environment made good rankings completely impossible.  Prior to his loss to Gabe, any suggestion that Randy Couture should be above Mirko would have been greeted with claims that the person that suggested it is an idiot.  

Fedor is outside of the UFC.  How can we really compare him to Randy Couture in terms of ranking?  I guess we can compare their performances against a common opponent, Tim Sylvia.  This is where the frustration starts.  One person points out the fast manner Fedor dropped Sylvia in, then another points out that Randy did the same and just wasn't able to get the choke.  Then the original person points out that is the difference between them, but then someone else raises the point that winning is really all that counts and Randy dominated Tim in his own fashion, seeing as he's not a choke specialist.  

At this point the argument descends into about ten thousand distinctions, with each party bringing up past performances, discounting poor ones and focusing on ones that help their point.  By the time the analysis is done each side has made a bunch of easily-contradictable points that go on in a vicious circle that goes on until everyone just gets exhausted.  Try Kevin Randleman as a common opponent and compare their performances and you get even more of a headache.

Rankings make for fun MMA discussion for some, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I believe that given the points above attempts to rank fighters in linear fashion are pointless.  Any list can be torn to shreds, and it's easy because every ranking list lies on a set of easily-rebuttable presumptions.  The better way to analyze the sport is on a fight by fight basis, looking at a fighter's entire body of work, the stylistic issues, and recent performances in order to determine which fighter will win that specific fight.  General rankings are an exercise in futility.

Disclaimer:  I'm very aware we publish meta-rankings, which are an aggregate of the online MMA community's rankings.  I think they give a good idea of the general line of thought among hardcore fans as to where fighters stand relative to one another, but I don't think the rankings tell us anything meaningful about the actual sport of MMA.


 

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I pretty much agree

Which is the reason I never tried to do rankings of my own.

However I do find rankings useful as a way to remind myself who the relevant fighters are. I find FightMatrix quite useful for that reason.

"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"

by Kid Nate on Mar 12, 2009 8:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Point nr 2 is what`s reaally important.

I hear time and time again arguments about injuries, porr conditioning, not yet learned a decent stand-up, “only been training bjj for a year” and so forth. How can anyone really make the assumption that just because a fight happened five years ago, it shows who the better fighter is today? In basically any other sport, a year lay-off due to injury would make you plummet in the rankings. How can you be sure that a fighter just comin back from an ACL-surgery can still stuff a take-daown or that he doesn`t gas in the first three minutes? Well, the answer is, you cant. If you use wins as a method of ranking, they should at least be weighted against time. For instance, Evans beating Forrest in -08 should be more worth than Jardine beating him 2-3 years ago.

"They called him the axe-murderer because he was murdering chumps. They should have been calling him the chump-murderer..." Rampage Jackson (commentating on the fighting abilities of Wanderlei "F#ck Chuck" Silva.)

by BlueberryMuffin on Mar 13, 2009 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Rankings Make no Sense in MMA

I really don’t understand the point of this proclamation. It’s as if you’ve seen the multiple discussions regarding rankings on this site today and decided you had to let anyone involved in those discussion know just how stupid you feel they are.

If it’s all the same to you, I’m going to continue taking the idea of ranking fighters entirely too seriously. But, I’ve always had a thing for enumeration, so applying that towards a favorite hobby of mine seems appropriate.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Mar 12, 2009 8:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not really, I said I have no problem with discussing it, I just don’t think they tell us much of anything, and are ultimately just completely subjective. I have no problem with anyone enjoying or discussing the sport how they see fit.

by Michael Rome on Mar 12, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll simply wait and see what Richard has to say. I’m sure he could raise some interesting points, because his grasp of the rankings landscape in respect to MMA is pretty damn solid.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 12, 2009 8:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ll have to actually take some time and write something well thought out later.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Mar 12, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mike, I think the core axiom at which you view rankings is off. It seems as if you look at rankings as a listed measure of talent/ability. The best conversation I had about rankings in fight sport was over IM with Jordan Breen a year or two ago. He laid out to me the purpose of rankings: A snapshot in time with a clearly defined champion (or number one fighter) and a pecking order of challengers underneath.

I have more thoughts on this, but I’d like to see where the discussion goes. I will say that I think rankings are extremely important in fight sport and almost for the same reasons you used in opposition.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Mar 12, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If you mean using it for historical record, that is perhaps a worthy reason. I don’t think rankings tell us anything though in terms of relative skills and ability to perform against one another. How can anyone rank Jardine vs. Rich Franklin? I just know what skills each has and how I think they’d match up, beyond that it’s all subjective. And as far as snapshots go, the fact that Robbie Lawler is number 3 in Meta Rankings right now tells me that they’re not really much of a snapshot at all. They are more like a public opinion poll. And much like most public opinion polls…I think most of the opinions are very questionable.

by Michael Rome on Mar 12, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I don’t think rankings tell us anything though in terms of relative skills and ability to perform against one another."

I agree, but I don’t think they’re supposed to. It’s frustrating to see or hear things like, "OMG how is fighter X over fight Y? Fighter Y would murder him!" That’s not what rankings are measuring.

I don’t find anything offensive about Lawler being at #3 at MW either.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Mar 12, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If the point is to be able to look back and see which fighters were considered top-ish at a certain time, I concede there is historical value in that, and it is useful for judging past wins. However, I think it’s really just large groups of very close fighters. I don’t see any useful way to decide if someone is 3 or 6, so it really is just a snapshot of public opinion. So I concede it’s decent for historical reasons, but debating whether Arlovski is 3 or 5 is just completely besides the point.

by Michael Rome on Mar 12, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. I’ve been thinking about using groups or clusters of fighters: Champ, Contender, Top Talent , Mid-tier, and low tier. Depending on the depth of the division, they very roughly correspond to #’s 1, 2-6, 7-12, top-25/35, and everybody else (respectively). To ascend to the next lever requires a victory against somebody of that level or several victories against those of your level.

It’s a very nascent notion, but I think that it could be a more accurate representation of the division.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 12, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that sounds like a plan.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Mar 12, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like grouping fighters into tiers, but you’ll still get the same B.S. from people. “Keith Jardine should be in Tier 1, not Tier 2.” etc.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Mar 12, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be harder to argue against, for one thing.

Actually the biggest problem in my mind so far is this (though I think that it’s true of all rankings): How do I establish the original tiers/rankings?

Method 1: I start with a set of rankings already established and go on from there (kinda like a lineal championship). This has problems because if those rankings were decent, we wouldn’t need this system in the first place.

Method 2: Set up new rankings based upon perceived merit/talent/ability etc. This seems like it might take us right back to the “fighter X would beat fighter Y”.

This is where I’m stuck at the moment.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 12, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ive got an easier method..

do the mmaweekly..

its really simple..

step 1: separate fighters into 2 groups, zuffa, and non zuffa..

step 2: Unless non zuffa fighter goes on a loooong losing streak, ALWAYS ALWAYS rank them higher..

step 3: bask in the glory of your great totally unbiased results..

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 12, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't absolve Zuffa

Zuffa controls 70-75% of all the top talent. Yet they seldom just pit #1 vs #2 like most of us would like to see. We see alot more Penn/Stevenson, Silva/Cote, Bisping/Leben,Jackson/Griffin,Hendo/Franklin type main events.
You can’t call everyone not in that Org. out when Zuffa controls every aspect of who fights who under their own banner.

In a perfect world there would be 2 or 3 really strong promotions, that would be willing to co-promote big fights a few times per year.

That is the only way you will ever get legitimate, bias free rankings.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Mar 13, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GSP/Fitch, Silva/Henderson, Evans/Machida (hell…pretty much ANY LHW title fight lately), Penn/Florian will qualify, GSP/Alves…

Penn/Stevenson was a “best we could” situation…Silva/Cote was a replacement fight, Bisping/Leben wasn’t a title fight..every card can’t have a title fight, Jackson/Griffin was absolutely a deserving main event, it was a title fight between two top 4 fighters, Hendo/Franklin fits into the “every card can’t be #1 vs. #2”

I just don’t see the “Zuffa doesn’t put on enough big fights” thing

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 13, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying that

It’s not that they don’t put on big fights. I am just saying that they should do so more often. It seems more that Zuffa concerns themselves protecting money fighters in an effort to maximize the bottom line. I am still a fan and get most of the PPV’s. But it seems disingenious to flame on every other orginazation just to further fellate the zuffa product.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Mar 13, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a perfect world there would be 2 or 3 really strong promotions, that would be willing to co-promote big fights a few times per year.

Zuffa essentially does this already.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Mar 13, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I keep saying this

Rankings are representative, not predictive. They’re all about what a fighter has accomplished, and what that fighter’s opponents accomplished before that. They don’t have anything to do with a fighter’s potential in future fights.

by FRANKIE on Mar 13, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you say that definatively for all the different fighter rankings out there?

 It seems that different people have different ideas about what the rankings mean. In MMA not only is their no set criteria for ranking fighters there isn’t even a set criteria about what the rankings are supposed to represent.

by who me on Mar 13, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can say it definitively, but only because I think people who disagree with me are wrong. Obviously, it’s just my opinion, but I think my opinion is right.

by FRANKIE on Mar 13, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your opinion I just recognize that not everyone does. If they did then maybe the ratings would make more sense and work better.

by who me on Mar 13, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, i recognize that too. Still, all I can really put forth in this discussion is my opinion.

by FRANKIE on Mar 13, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never thought of rankings as a historical record and using them as a ranking of who is better than who is still pretty much subjective to the viewpoint of the person doing the ranking and ranking them according to their pecking order to get a title shot doesn’t work because there are multiple MMA leagues/promotions/organizations. Lets face it the very fact that fans can’t even agree on what the purpose of rankings are or the meanings behind them is another mark against their usefullness in the sport. They are good for getting a general idea of where fighters stand but their best use is for entertainment purposes, people love to read them and they love to talk about them.

by who me on Mar 12, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was under this impression too. I thought that rankings were about achievement, i.e. who you’ve beaten and whose beaten you.

I think that the slippery slope of ability and “fighter X would beat fighter Y” comes into play partially because of the fragmented nature of the talent pool.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 12, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s another factor, which is the power UFC has in determining matches. People can point out all day that Machida doesnt have a lot of top 10 wins, but how is that meaningful when Chuck, Forrest, and others have ducked him? And when the UFC doesn’t want to bury big names by having them fight him, only using his accomplishments to do rankings becomes an absurdity.

by Michael Rome on Mar 12, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Mar 12, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair to Forrest, he ducked Machida to fight a man who was thought to be the #1 fighter in the world at the time. I could be wrong but I don’t think he ducked Machida because he was afraid of losing.

At any rate, most rankings come with the caveat that they are ranking people for what they’ve accomplished in the ring, not for how good they suspect they may actually be, for pretty much the reason’s you described: it’s nearly impossible to determine.

Then again, Championships are also determined by what people actually accomplish in the ring, not what people think someone’s capable of, so rankings being determined that way don’t particularly bother me.

by Chromium on Mar 12, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any sport w/ Rankings are subjective.....

College Football is the perfect example. Year after year top teams lose to lesser teams. There is all hell raised over the ranking system.

Anytime you let people’s opinions and ranking system try to determine who’s best, they will be proven wrong at some point.

Anyone with a brain takes rankings for what they are, which is just an opinion of people who know the given sport.

by Dexerion on Mar 12, 2009 10:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

“Anyone with a brain takes rankings for what they are, which is just an opinion of people who know the given sport.” – Just another reason WAMMA is a joke…

but ya, Rankings are “worthless”…I use quotes because I love rankings, meta-rankings here make the most sense to me, I keep my own list in a works file just because, because I trust my own opinion over anyone elses, but I’ve always liked rankings in boxing, top 25 polls in football and basketball (power rankings for pro sports are stupid because standings/playoffs/championship is all that matters) and I like rankings in MMA though most sites and most rankings are terrible, which is why theres such a problem in MMA, need to just combine 10-20 or so people that have been around the longest, know the sport the best, and don’t have any clear biases, we all know bloggers/jouranlists/writers/etc that fill that roll…

by Reaser on Mar 12, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure rankings are subjective, and not entirely accurate..

but at least we get to see an idea on who people think are the top fighters.. The meta rankings are actually the best because its a consensus and doesnt have any bias.. subjective, accurate, or not, i’d take it over NO rankings at all..

and richard does a great job with the meta rankings.. Its by far the best rankings in the webs yo.

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 12, 2009 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Meta rankings are the best(as was discussed under the other article).

by who me on Mar 12, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Psshhhhh

This is so dumb. WAMMA solves all of this, silly-heads.

by Farthammer on Mar 12, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the real reason these ratings don’t have as much significance are two factors, one being a result of the other. Amount of fighters and age. First, there just aren’t that many professional MMA fighters. This itself is many times a result of the amount of athletic commissions currently regulating the sport and the relative infancy of the sport. Secondly, most fighters don’t start fighting outside of regional shows until they are 23-27. That doesn’t leave nearly as many years to make up those fights

Furthermore, you have to remember that there is no sport like MMA. To be a truly successful professional fighter today you need to be well trained in so many aspects of the sports. This takes years for fighters to master.

I think within 2 or 3 years, if the sport (and the UFC) continue to grow at the current rate, we could see some affective rankings. I say the UFC specifically because, to my knowledge, the UFC has no cap on the amount of fighters they want under contract. Who are we to say their roster size couldn’t double within a year? Monthly or bi-monthly cards for lower to mid-level fighers to fight on, and allowing the PPVs to be for the upper echelon if fighters.

by Gogo Platter on Mar 12, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Point #3

Is kind of weak in my eyes and it overlooks where the fighters he fought were at the time of the fight. Where a guy’s opponents rank NOW matter far less than they did THEN. When you beat a guy who is #1 and he drops down to #4 you did not suddenly beat a guy who was not a #1 fighter. Most of the top ten fighters (especially in the UFC) regularly fight other top ten fighters. Just because the rankings adjust following that fight does not devalue the quality of the win in the timespace that it happened.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sometimes a #1 fighter isnt really a #1 fighter and time brings it to light. was Rahman the #1 fighter in the world after he beat Lennox Lewis. and suppose Rahman would have fought some can and lost before the rematch with Lewis, would that can then be #1

by #5mmafan on Mar 12, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the problem. Let’s say you use MMA weekly rankings. If and when Chuck beats Shogun, someone a few years down the line can say he beat a guy considered top 5 at the time. Really? Is that so? Does anyone really believe Shogun is on that level right now because he beat Rampage badly in 2005?

I think “rating at the time” is useful until you realize that rankings in MMA heavily favor the most recent performance, and don’t really affect a fighter’s overall skill. See: Houston Alexander’s ranking heading into the Thiago Silva fight.

by Michael Rome on Mar 13, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

affect = reflect.

by Michael Rome on Mar 13, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think...

that if you’re ranking guys on what they HAVE done…then yeah, you can absolutely make the case that Shogun = top 5. He hasn’t fought like it lately but at the same time looking at things on paper he has 3 career losses. One early career to Babalu, one on an injury to Coleman in what amounts to a fight outside of his weight class and one very recently to Forrest who is a guy who spent the better part of the last year and a half in the top 5 of most people’s rankings.

Now his last two performances against Forrest and Coleman were lackluster but based on a combination of career merits and perceived talent level…sure…he has a good case as being top 5. That being said you’re going to find just as many rankings that don’t have Shogun even in the top 10 (Sherdog) which is why a composite system like the meta’s is valuable.

Just to further the top 5 argument:

15 of his 20 fights were on the “big stage” with a record of 13-2 in those fights. 11 of those 13 wins were via KO or Submission. One of the two losses has been avenged (and being a “on paper” guy for rankings I count the win by coleman as a full on legitimate win so the avenging of the loss matters) and the other was to a guy who is at the very top end of the weight class.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 13, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Use the Zorgon the Wet rating system.

by subo on Mar 12, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice post, Mike.

by mmafiend on Mar 12, 2009 11:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You slam rankings systems as subjective but provide no empirical data beyond anecdotes to support your argument.

In point 1 you hint that there may be too much parity in MMA to arrive at any level of certainty in ranking, but instead of supporting that with win/loss statistics, you just cherry pick Jardine and Ortiz anecdotes.

In point 2 you again cherry pick for your examples. Shinya Aoki fought 7 times in 2008 but is conspicuously absent from this discussion. On top of that you throw in some irrelevant discussion about fight camp stories, as if they have any bearing at all in even the most half-assed rankings.

By the time you’ve hit point 3, you’ve abandoned any hope of reasonable argument. Perhaps instead of “Top Fighters Don’t Fight Each Other” you should just come out and say “Lyoto Machida hasn’t fought top fighters”. And again you draw comparison to Basketball, so I’ll counter with an example of my own: how many top teams has the Memphis University basketball team played this year?

You might be on to something with point 4, but again other sports have multiple leagues and conferences and manage to do just fine with their rankings. The aforementioned Memphis is ranked #4 in the country despite having not played in the Big East or ACC, the two best conferences in the sport.

After all is said and done this whole article just sounds like you lost an argument on some online forum and decided to come here and tell us how meaningless things are.

Why stop at rankings though? Why don’t you rail against oddsmaking, if predicting fighter performance is so impossible?

by George Lucas on Mar 13, 2009 12:16 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

5) Not all fighters are allowed Aoki pants

by MonkeyCHops on Mar 13, 2009 12:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Guys...

while I understand this is a bit of a poke in the chest to some people as rankings are viewed as quite important by many of us…we can’t get confrontational about things. So keep it civil.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 13, 2009 1:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

??
 I wasn’t being confrontational I was wondering why he was being that way.

by who me on Mar 13, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yours wasn't...

necessarily the only one that I got rid of. Just relax a bit. That’s all. it’s not a punishment or an attempt to censor you or anyone else but I’ve been doing this long enough that I know a comment that is going to lead down a bad road when I see it.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 13, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not upset at all about it. I wasn’t wondering about what went away I was wondering about what didn’t. You were right but the bad road is still in play(I’m not the only goof that would fall into that trap).

by who me on Mar 13, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

There should only be who is #1 and who is #2 in a weight class.

The other ranks mean nothing, I wish the UFC would just publish a “Contender Status” section where they list the top 3 contenders for each weight class and their +/- in recent fights and who they last beat and who they are fighting next.

But sometimes their matchmaking is more for the fans than finding out who is best, and that is what skews the rankings most of all.

by DirtyML on Mar 13, 2009 1:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What I'd really like to see re: Rankings

Promotional rankings within each weightclass, made public. Ultimately that’s all that matters. Who gives a shit whether Penn is #1 or Aoki is #1. They’re each #1 in the promotions they fight in and they’re probably never going to fight each other. They should each be fighting the #2 in their respective organizations though.

by FRANKIE on Mar 13, 2009 1:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stupid drunk post

There should have been a question mark after “Who gives a shit whether Penn is #1 or Aoki is #1,” not a period. I hate doing that.

by FRANKIE on Mar 13, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I agree with you

Promotional rankigns are the way to go.

by rainmaker6 on Mar 13, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I personally hate most all MMA rankings, I find them laughable and biased and a waste of everyone’s time in the end let the fighters determine who’s the best and focus less on so called ranking of fighters.

by Raker on Mar 13, 2009 3:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

One point I majorly disagree

Training should have nothing whatsoever to do with rankings. Training is training. It’s like trying to rank tennis players when they play exhibition matches or play each other no a sunday afternoon after lunch. There’s nothing like real competition.

Otherwise I agree with most everything you said apart from the fact that I like rankings because rankings are fun. If there was one org only then rankings would be useful (under the Mike Fagan theory) but currently they aren’t super useful.

by rainmaker6 on Mar 13, 2009 3:22 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How do fighters like

Matt Serra and Brock Lesnar get ranked after their wins in the UFC? They both have wins over a currently or past ranked top 10 fighter. I believe these are the most subject fighter rankings situations.

Serra leaped in the worldwide welterweight MMA rankings after getting a TKO win over Georges St. Pierre. This is a very polarizing argument for those trying to determine which fighter should be ranked higher. At some point if Matt Serra doesn’t keep getting wins over top 10 opponents or is inactive, he will plummet a few spots if not more. The other side of that is when GSP should get his #1 spot back provided he does beat credible top 10 competition. How long does it take and which top 10 guy does it have to be?

Since entering the UFC, Brock Lesnar is 2-1 inside the octagon. By capturing a decision over formerly top 3 ranked Heath Herring, he is injected into the ranking discussion. Is Herring just a gatekeeper or would he be dominated for 15 minutes if they met again? A win over Frank Mir may have been worthy enough of that debate.

Personally for me, the rankings have become distorted over various websites and can be hard to interpret by merit. Like a few posters have mentioned earlier, the UFC doesn’t always have #1 vs #2 often enough to determine it either.

by King_II on Mar 13, 2009 3:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rankings are like your friends girlfriends

You have to take everything they tell you with a grain of salt. They are loose ideas not rigid structures

by EazyEismydad on Mar 13, 2009 4:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wrestling Rankings in the Lehigh Valley...

The Lehigh Valley, in Pennsylvania, is one of the most competitive areas in the country for wrestling. We have two newspapers that do weekly rankings pretty efficiently. You can follow the rationales of rankings even though some wrestlers will not wrestle each other and they rank wrestlers from small schools (Dream), New Jersey schools (Strikeforce), and big schools (UFC) all in one system. It’s not that hard! Granted, wrestler compete much more often than fighters, which would give a person a better understanding of the abilities of the athlete. However these papers rank wrestlers week after week with fewer arguments than any of Sherdog or MMA Weekly rankings do. You have to use more logical techniques.

by Bruiser on Mar 13, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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