WAMMA's Last Chance for Credibility
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintSomehow I managed to not notice until I read MMASuPreMaCy's fanpost this morning that WAMMA has managed to get it's rankings featured on ESPN's MMA Live. As any long time reader of this site knows, I have my share of problems with WAMMA, but this goes beyond just my personal issues with them.
This is a chance for WAMMA to increase its credibility. This is quite possibly the last chance for WAMMA to prove that they are willing to stick to their own stated purpose of crowning one true champion in each weight class without promotional boundries.
WAMMA must crown Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, and Rashad Evans as their champions.
The reason why this must happen is simple; WAMMA's ranking system is one of Champion, 1, 2, 3, 4...etc. When these rankings pop up on the screen if the only two weight classes that show a "champion" are Heavyweight and Lightweight it is going to immediately dent the credibility of WAMMA in the eyes of people who to that point had never heard of it, let alone in the eyes of the hardcore fans who have mostly written them off already.
It is going to be pretty difficult for ESPN to show these rankings without commenting on the lack of champions in the Welterweight, Middleweight and Light Heavyweight classes. And the only comment that could be had anyway is "the UFC refuses to work with WAMMA" which is not going to look good for WAMMA to the casual observer. The general public is going to assume that there is something wrong with WAMMA when they are told that the biggest promotion in the world refuses to work with them. There is no true value right now to being a renegade sanctioning body, fighting against the evil giant. Especially when objective viewing shows that it would only be a fight against truth anyway.
Rashad Evans beat Forrest Griffin when Forrest was ranked #1 in WAMMA's own rankings, his upcoming fight with Lyoto Machida is a #1 vs. #2 fight which is perfectly in line with WAMMA's own "best fighting the best" goal. Anderson Silva defeated Dan Henderson when Silva was ranked #1 and Hendo #2. Georges St. Pierre defeated Jon Fitch when that was a #1 vs. #2 fight, GSP next fights Thiago Alves in another #1 vs. #2 fight. There is no excuse that the competitive matchmaking is not there, it most certainly is and continues to be. The only thing that didn't exist in these fights was a chance for WAMMA to get it's hands on some easy cash.
So WAMMA, the ball is in your court. Crown the most deserving fighters as your champions and maybe get a little credibility back as you gain exposure on an ESPN studio show or continue to show yourselves as what you have proven to be thus far. One king, one crown...as long as you can make a buck.
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WAMMA must crown Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, and Rashad Evans as their champions.
Agreed just doubt UFC will ever let it happen.
A belt remake would be nice as well. Those thing sare HIDEOUS!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
It has nothing to do with the UFC
the UFC doesn’t have to be involved at all. WAMMA can just say “we recognize Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva and Rashad Evans as our champions” and they can be just like Aoki in that they are champions who don’t wear the WAMMA belt at any point. The UFC can’t say “you’re not allowed to call our fighters your champions” they would just continue to ignore WAMMA.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I see
So no ugly ass WAMMA strap will actually be awarded in the cage. Great point and yeah that makes sense. :)
Also, that was supposed to be a block quote not a strike. Sorry, I’m sleepy and I have a slight videogame hangover. Damn you Killzone 2 and your awesome multiplayer!! lol
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 12, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I think WAMMA ‘Undisputed’ belts should just be dropped. They are disputed until the UFC joins. Until then they should just be WAMMA belts and then you can award them to UFC fighters.
Anyways doing what your asking would bring the UFC and the Dana marketing machine down on them HARD! There would then be no WAMMA.
How?
the UFC would just continue to ignore them. The last thing the UFC would do is bring any extra attention to WAMMA.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana publicly ignores them now, but if you start handing out belt to his champions like they are worth something then he’s very likely going to respond negatively and his responses are always all or nothing.
I have little doubt that WAMMA and the UFC have felt each other out on this manner. How many interviews has Dana had with the Ranking committee members (Most members are press) and they never ask him about this kinda of stuff. It’s cause they know the answer and they don’t want them known.
It’s my feelings that Dana has mixed feelings about WAMMA he like really dislikes the WAMMA encroaching on “championship” with the ‘undisputed’ titles, but will put up with them due to the fact that they have the most objective rankings out there and sports live and die by rankings. UFC won’t rank and won’t publicly ever endorse a ranking system because it often handicaps them in the endorsement big money fights like Lesnar vs Couture, but they realize that rankings are very instrumental to MMA fan’s growth and development.
What are you thinking...
he could possibly do to WAMMA? He can’t counterpromote them. I mean…I get your whole “he wouldn’t be happy” thing…but seriously…this is a case where he can’t really do anything that would “take them out”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the thing people keep saying that I don’t get.
What the hell is Dana going to do if WAMMA says, “Anderson Silva is the Undisputed Middleweight champion of the world.”
Are they going to sue WAMMA? Are they going to fire Anderson Silva? Are they going to say, “Anderson Silva isn’t the undisputed champion?”
The worst they can do is say, “Yes, he is the undisputed world champion, and we don’t need some assholes called WAMMA telling us that,” but that isn’t very much different from what is going on now.
The fact is, WAMMA is a complete joke until they recognized Zuffa promoted champions, and the fact that they won’t crown Anderson, Rashad and GSP, but they crowned Aoki means they are hypocrites, and I want them to die.
Right..
in the interview with me they claimed that they didn’t want to put UFC fighters in a potentially damaging situation. But as I told them..I sincerely doubt that Dana is going to punish a fighter for being recognized by an independent organization as the best in the world.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana isn’t going to let one of his guys wear a WAMMA belt to the cage or promote them as WAMMA champions and he darn sure isn’t going to let WAMMA tell the UFC who does and doesn’t deserve titleshots but I don’t see where he would care if WAMMA said fighter x is the WAMMA champion. The problem with all this is that WAMMA is a for profit organization and the rankings and belts are how they plan to make money off the sport, if the UFC won’t let them promote belts or pay them licensing fees then WAMMA’s business model falls apart.
What can Dana do to hurt WAMMA? That’s easy he just doesn’t let them leach off what he is doing.
But the Aoki Alvarez title shot negates that whole line of thinking.
They hardly promoted that, they didn’t present the belt after the match, and, as far as I can tell, they haven’t even given Aoki the belt.
Why can’t they treat the UFC guys like they treated (and are treating) Aoki?
Yes it does point to something odd going on because Dream doesn’t seem to care to work with them anymore than the UFC does but they had no problem calling that a WAMMA fight, heck WAMMA representatives didn’t even show up at that fight and I don’t see how they made any money off that (just how is WAMMA keeping the lights on?).
I wonder if they were using that to try and get Dream on board(tossing them a bone) or if they were trying to test the waters in Japan with that move because it doesn’t make any sense beyond as a pot shot at BJ Penn and the UFC?
Dana won’t say anything. If someone asks, he will say, “WAMMA who?”
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Then if someone explains, he will go “That’s cool I guess, but here in the UFC…” and go on to promote the competitive matchmaking in the UFC.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I’ve heard this also. The “that’s cool…” can and very likely will change if Dana has to answer questions regarding the press conference/release that WAMMA would have to put on.
What power does Dana have? Dana can go head to head with a lot of people and come out on top. Tito, EliteXC, Pride, Randy Couture, Josh Gross,Fedor/Affliction, and many others have and will continue to underestimate Dana. He doesn’t fight fair. If he makes it a us versus them WAMMA will lose.
Dana owns his fighters. Finch learned that when he was cut. You can either work with Dana to continue to grow the UFC or he won’t have a problem making your life miserable and expensive.
On the other hand you can be nice to Dana, Scott Coker and Strikeforce, and still be involved in MMA in a somewhat competitive way and Dana will within reason (as minimally as possible) reciprocate.
Dana pretty much views things like he is the undisputed market leader and he doesn’t want others benefiting from his product. He has marketed his fighters to what they are and he doesn’t want them using that position to market and legitimize another organization such as WAMMA, IFL, or Affliction.
Why discredit WAMMA? If he legitimizes their belt well then it has much more potential to be bigger than a UFC belt, a belt that Dana does not have direct control to promote as he wishes.
Again..
you’re using these vague “if you take Dana on you’ll lose” things which don’t work in regards to WAMMA. He can discredit them..sure. But he can’t really “actively” go after them in any way that makes sense. It isn’t the same as going after a rival promotion.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
people seem to think that Dana has actually had a hand in the death of all of the other orgs floating around out there.
The fact is, they all shot themselves in the foot, Dana was just around to pick up the pieces if he felt like it (with some IFL fighters, WFA, and Pride). Them, Elite, and Affliction eventually, will fail due to their own terrible business practices.
Everyone on the internet acts like there’s some major war going on, Dana vs the world. The only actual thing that Dana and the UFC have done to hurt another org is whatever caused the Affliction 2 card in Vegas to be canceled. And to be perfectly honest, no one know exactly went on there). He really just talks shit and watches them kill themselves.
EliteXC – Dana didn’t do much made Shaw’s look like fools well mostly did it on their own
Pride – post purchase shutdown
Affliction – with the ban from UFC, counter programming, Vegas influence, and shit-talking.
Fedor – not recognizing him as the best heavyweight. He will now cause there’s a really good chance he will get him next and he he’s getting free American advertising in the millions.
Josh Gross and Co. – the internet guys.
Randy Couture – Dana didn’t lose this one at all.
Back on topic:
“in the interview with me they claimed that they didn’t want to put UFC fighters in a potentially damaging situation….”
"Dana pretty much views things like he is the undisputed market leader and he doesn’t want others benefiting from his product. He has marketed his fighters to what they are and he doesn’t want them using that position to market and legitimize another organization such as WAMMA, IFL, or Affliction.
Why discredit WAMMA? If he legitimizes their belt well then it has much more potential to be bigger than a UFC belt, a belt that Dana does not have direct control to promote as he wishes." Most of his fans don’t know who Aoki is, but if he allows the UFC or his fighters to promote their “undisputed” belt others will look to see why BJ Penn or Lesnar don’t have one. This creates instant credibility for these other organizations.
I didn’t think that Dana would cut Jon Fitch and Lindland. I didn’t think he would keep Couture from promoting Xtreme Couture in the IFL, but he did.
Wow, this has “Clusterfuck” written all over it. I truly cannot stand WAMMA, but if they would actually make meaningful rankings, they would at least have that working in their favor.
If they don’t, I hope the MMA Live panel makes a mockery of them.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Mar 12, 2009 10:35 AM EDT reply actions
That's just it...
I would hope that the panel is able to comment on the rankings if they are shown as they are presented on the website. the actual RANKING of fighters isn’t a problem, it is the handling of the championships.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Well the fact that Josh Barnett and BJ Penn are ranked 1 and Fedor and Aoki are ranked, uhm 0? is a problem to me. Not a big problem but certainly annoying.
That's how it works...
with Ring also. You are no longer “ranked” once you are champion. Rankings are for challengers. So once you are crowned “champion” you don’t get a ranking aside from being at the top of the list as “champion”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That really makes it glaringly obvious that their rankings aren’t authorative at all. If WAMMA did it like Ring Magazine does then it would be more respectable but then they wouldn’t have a way to try and turn a buck off doing it.
i was a little surprised by this as well. from what iv’e seen and read, most of the hardcore fans, the internet fans, can’t stand wamma and think that is mma live’s base audience right now, since it’s only avaialble on the net. i think mostlu hardcore fans are the only ones to watch it and usually catch the replay. i think espn didn’t do it’s homework on this one. i would be willing to give wamma a chance as well, as long as they do like brent says and acknowledge the BIG 3 as their champs(i still think bj should be lw champ, but aoki is pretty good). aside from them seeming to want to award titlr to everyone besides ufc fighters, their rankings are pretty good, but if they continue to name champs and NEVER include any ufc fighters, fans will catch on to that real quick and let espn.com know about it. i dont see this relationship lasting long, if wamma doesn’t change.
haha...
classic!
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
A Hot Night in Rio
Choi’d.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Mar 12, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Off Topic
For the record I’m white. I can’t stand ROWG rich old white guys. I hate ROWG. They own big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies, porn, liquer, corporations, basically they pedal all the harmful things in our society ( I could take this alot further but for the purposes of this post I’ll keep it short). When I am old, will I be a ROWG?
if you work hard
ignore the little things in life like your family and lie cheat and steal you too can be a ROWG but I got to warn you kid, it ain’t what it used to be, being a ROWG
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Torres and Brown would need to acknowledged as well.
I will play my game beneath the spin light.
Absurd Meridian
by Eugene Schelfaut on Mar 12, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
True...
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate ellipsis.
I will play my game beneath the spin light.
Absurd Meridian
by Eugene Schelfaut on Mar 13, 2009 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I can never read it correctly and it just makes me confused, which is a feeling I have too much of already.
Ugh…
I will play my game beneath the spin light.
Absurd Meridian
by Eugene Schelfaut on Mar 13, 2009 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I have a problem...
with them. I use them to lead from title into main body on comments. And I also use them when I am “talking” on the computer. For whatever reason back in the day I picked up a nasty habit of “typing like I talk.”
So they represent pauses if I were speaking out loud. Don’t ask me why, I just have done it for a really long time.
So…uh…sorry?
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 13, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Man I wish they had called themselves MMAWA instead of WAMMA. It just sounds stupid to begin with. If they gave me a belt I’d stick that thing in my closet. :P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
i bet if wargods gave you a belt you'd put it in a glass casing in the middle of your living room for everyone to see. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Mar 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course he would, Wargods has infinite more credibility than WAMMA.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
This a huge misstep for ESPN
For a company that has been in the sports game for so long……BIG mistake. Why would you support a rankings system that is not supported by the biggest player in the game? They were better off making their own rankings system. An ESPN top ten would have more pull and respect than WAMMA does. I just don’t see how this helps ESPN’s coverage at all. I would love an explanation of the rational here. It only confuses casual fans who have trouble following the sport as it is.
by Nick Travaglini on Mar 12, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions
Why would you support a rankings system that is not supported by the biggest player in the game?
Uhm, because the biggest player in the game doesn’t support any ranking system? And as ‘who me’ says they don’t know MMA, They get most of their content from Sherdog and do they really won’t a few overweight journalist making their rankings. To tell the truth I doubt Sherwood and crew would want their rankings at that level due to the fact that it would overshadow all their other work. Sherdog continually downplays the credibility of their own rankings.
Why the hell aren’t they just using Sherdog’s? They’re already affiliated with them.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
And people like them
(not me)
But a big reason we like rankings is that its a good discussion starter.
And people like WAMMA’s rankings?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Mar 12, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
he's just trying to be anti zuffa again. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Mar 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
WAMMA with it’s present agenda is a parasite. Syphoning off any exposure or money it can from it’s food source, it will eventually " let go" when it is able to sustain itself in the wild on it’s own, off of the nutrients it has ingested. Untill it finds another host. In which case it will move on to another host. It has no natural predatory enemies, we don’t know where it comes from. It’s safe to say though, as long as you keep a clove of garlic around your neck, you will stink.
by bubbafat on Mar 12, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Luckily, there is no way they are smart (read ’honest’) enough to do that.
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 12, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
ESPN waits too long to hop onto MMA…and of course, screws it up when they do. sigh they really don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to MMA…..
Gatti.
Dekkers.
Pele.
Tadahiro Nomura.
Hidehiko Yoshida.
Aoki.
Kang.
Vanderlei.
by theworldsoldestsport on Mar 12, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
The UFC does fine, and we do not NEED WAMMA. It's a Boxing-like relic of a joke...
Rashad Evans beat Forrest Griffin when Forrest was ranked #1 in WAMMA’s own rankings, his upcoming fight with Lyoto Machida is a #1 vs. #2 fight which is perfectly in line with WAMMA’s own “best fighting the best” goal. Anderson Silva defeated Dan Henderson when Silva was ranked #1 and Hendo #2. Georges St. Pierre defeated Jon Fitch when that was a #1 vs. #2 fight, GSP next fights Thiago Alves in another #1 vs. #2 fight.
And this statement proves it. The UFC nearly always pits top contenders against the champ. They may have to wait a fight or 2, but it nearly always happens. WAMMA is a bunch of guys that have no real control in the sport trying to take control as part of a money/power grab.
This isn’t boxing and we (MMA) don’t need your alphabet soup.
WAMMA must crown Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, and Rashad Evans as their champions.
As soon as they are given a championship fight they can be crowned. Without an approved championship fight, it makes no sense.
I meant Anderson Silva/Hendo, not to put Rich and Anderson twice, but the point stands.
WAMMA has had their chance to crown UFC champions and they’ve passed. The reasons they gave were made invalid when they crowned Aoki. You’re right that an appropriate fight hasn’t happened since then, but if you’re going to use that excuse, it’s a little convenient that they decided to announce that Aoki/Alvarez would be a title match right after a 1 vs 2 match in the UFC that they just ignored.
That's the question
Unfortunately I never like Brent’s argument because he’s always lumping WAMMA belt holders with WAMMA #1 ranked fighters to point out a discrepancy. Of course there is discrepancy, one guy holds a belt the other guy holds the #1 ranking.
We don’t know why WAMMA hasn’t sanctioned any of UFC’s top fights? It’s jumping to a conclusion believing it’s a WAMMA conspiracy against UFC. We don’t even know if it’s UFC conspiracy against WAMMA. Maybe we will get a answer on ESPN.
The Ring Magazine argument doesn’t hold up either. Ring Magazine just awards a top ranking. Boxer’s don’t carry around a Ring Magazine belt nor defend it in a fight. If the #1 ranked boxer loses to the #7, it’s possible Ring Magazine announces the #2 ranked is now #1 ranked. Adding a belt to the process makes the #7 ranked fighter #1 automatically.
Yes, without UFC fighters WAMMA has a creditability issue. However it’s a promotional coverage issue, not an issue of refusing to crown the best fighter. No fighter is carrying around Anderson Silva’s WAMMA belt.
No fighter is carrying around Shinya Aoki’s belt either, including Aoki. They didn’t have a problem making him a champion with no belt.
But why haven’t they announced that for a UFC fight?
That’s the problem. We don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. But in public, there is no difference between how Dream and how UFC treat WAMMA. The fact that WAMMA treats them differently is bullshit.
Whatever reasons WAMMA has given in the past went out the window with the Dream fight. If there are new reasons that they can’t crown a UFC champion, they should come out with them.
My problem with your take..
on my view is that you’re ignoring the interviews I did with them where they TOLD ME IN PLAIN ENGLISH that they would not put belts on UFC fighters because the UFC won’t work with them
You keep insinuating that I’m making it up when they SAID that they will not award titles to fighters in the UFC.
Again, the UFC can’t “conspire” against WAMMA. All WAMMA has to do is say regardless of the promotion working with us or not and regardless of their ability to carry around our belt, we recognize the best fighter in the weight class….
Start with Evans/Machida…it’s #1 vs. #2 in the WAMMA rankings…can’t get better than that. In fact it is much better than #1 Fedor vs. #7 (at the time) Sylvia.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
Ring Magazine is the most respected ranking/championship in boxing and they award championships to fighters who are deserving.
Or at the very least Machida/Evans is #1 vs. #2 on their rankings currently…seems like the perfect opportunity to say “here’s a legit title fight” and “sanction” it.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 12, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
This is very good article Brent but as usual I don’t think WAMMA will be listening to the common sense you’ve been sending their way for months. The other thing I don’t understand that WAMMA doesn’t do is create their own hall of fame I mean the UFC’s is nice but they are missing so many hall of fame worthy fighters because they aren’t on good terms with the company. WAMMA would be the perfect fit to start a Hall of Fame being that they say they are completely unbiased to all other promotions.
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