Does Mac Danzig Know That Snitches Get Stiches?
by Kid Nate on Feb 6, 2009 8:34 PM EST
in MMA News
Email
Print
From Steve Cofield:
Mac Danzig told us today during an interview to preview Ultimate Fight Night 17, that he's heard that greasing is more widespread than you'd think saying that guys will do it hours before a fight, letting the Vaseline seep into the skin and sweating it out when the fight starts. Even more intriguing was a recent conversation with an MMA fighter who said there are certain baths (mineral oil) that a fighter can take. Once the fight starts and the fighters begin to perspire, it's almost as if he's sweating baby oil. The same fighter said that GSP isn't the only Jackson's Submission Fighting team member who's been labeled a "greaser". An opposing camp made those claims saying, "we do it, so we'd know if they were doing it."
This sort of cheating is much more serious than what GSP's corner was caught red-handed doing and its one reason I think that Shinya Aoki pants should be legal in MMA.
My interest is in what makes the sport more fun to watch. Grappling is a key part of the mixed martial arts. If widespread cheating is giving grapplers an unfair disadvantage, I think spandex pants are an excellent solution.
And thanks for the link Steve. "Kid Nate, the blogger who saved MMA" has a real nice ring to it.
HT Fightinker.
156 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Or we can just ban cheaters like GSP. No fines, suspensions, just straight lifetime ban…make him the example then fighters wouldn’t want to risk cheating…(also should be lifetime ban for taking steriods also, if any sport)
Yes, and let’s give them Chinese water torture and burn them at the stake as well, especially when we have absolutely NO proof that they intentionally did anything wrong.
A better analogy would be- “..didn’t see the stop sign? No problem, you’re free to go.”
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 6, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
or ‘BJ Penn is teh bestest fighter eva’
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 6, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
And baseball..
could ban anyone who scuffs a ball, or uses amphetamines, or throws a spitter, or leans over the plate using elbow armor to take away the majority of the plate. I mean..that takes away the fairness of the game as pitchers can’t use the entire plate. Or offensive linemen who have perfected the art of the “inside hold” where refs can’t really accurately see that the defender is being held. That ruins the integrity of the sport also and leads to the offensive explosion overtaking solid defensive games. Or Diego Maradona-esque use of the hands in soccer to score game winning goals.
And don’t get me started on the way that grabbing fences ruins the wrestling and takedown aspect of the sport (I’d say grabbing the fence is every bit as disruptive to the sport of MMA as the amount of Vaseline GSP had on him). Let’s get to banning THEM too.
Look…greasing is wrong…but banning EVERYONE who cheats in any way is just…it’s just not reasonable.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 6, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
funny that people took that seriously…
but I was serious about roids/HGH, thats a whole other level of cheating, and it should definately result in a lifetime ban. Missing a few games here or there or missing out on 1-2 schedule fights isn’t a legit punishment for PED’s.
greasing should result in the fight being ruled a NC, a fine and a short suspension…imo…its using illegal substances to cheat the sport, unlike the comparison to holding in football, which is equal to grabbing of the shorts in MMA, you get a warning for that…
I think a second PED failure
should result in a longterm/lifetime ban. 1 time CAN be due to false positive or other lab screwup. Not saying any have been. But it is POSSIBLE. The odds of being on the wrong end of 2 false positives is so low that you should get a multi-year or permanent suspension.
Or roids should just not be tested for at all and let everybody do whatever they wanna do.
Gimme 1 Round!
I guess a 2nd PED fail can be lifetime ban, but 1st should be a full year (or season) then…how it is now is a joke, in NFL its supposed to be 4 games but they can just appeal it and get it cut to 3 or even 2 games, games that are early season and aren’t as important. Baseball is a joke, past, present and future of the sport is already ruined, game built on stats. Also funny when they suspend a pitcher 10 games meaning he only misses 2 starts…plus it takes a “million” positive tests before any REAL punishment is handed out…
Magic submission pants?
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
if kid nate is followed, this will surely happen...
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
that might be too much awesome.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
and BJ with those pants.. damnn.. no one (at LW at least) would be able to touch him on the ground..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Aoki might beg to differ with you on that.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
maybe aoki could, but i dont think bj will let him go to the ground to find out haha.
i see bj one leg hopping his way to victory..
i would definitely want to see the pants in the octagon just to see how much better hazelett would do.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
another rec makes my photoshopped pic green right? haha. :D
(hey other guys lobbied for recs too.. hahaha.)
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
oooh. greeeeeeeen. hahaha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
To try an regulate this is a nightmare…
Grappling Pants need to be made legal and this will solve most all these problems.
Eddie Bravo was the first to call for it and I support this.
Once every grappler can where aoki’s majic underwear then things will even out.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 8:53 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
are you pulling my leg here?
After your Aoki bashing post I’m not sure how to take this.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with overblown rhetoric"
ah, good point
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Im not bashing aoki…
Im just saying you can’t rank a fighter where he wears magic pants…
It’s like ranking a fighter where they allow brass knuckles in a certain league.
I believe aoki pants should be made legal.
Right now I have 2 things on my agenda of changes:
1) change main event fights to 5 rounders.
This will make the cards with no title fights more marketable and better chances of a definative ending… if the fight is important enough to main event a ppv then it’s important enough to be five rounds and have a better chance of seeing a definitive ending. (also decreases the blue balls effect on fights like hendo-franklin)
2) making aoki pants legal
This will negate all this greasing shit the Jackson Camp does… and a few others.
Which will result in more of a true representation of grappling in MMA… increase submissions and decrease stalements which = more happy fans.
At the end of the day Greasing makes a huge impact on a fight and changes the sport as Nate stated in another post.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
5 rounds = more chance of Machida finishing people.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m down with both these suggestions. I mean, not all main events deserve 5 rounds in retrospect (Bisping/Leben, oh god…), but neither does every title fight and there’s no way to know until the fight happens. As for the pants, I have no idea why they aren’t legal… They can hinder the person wearing them with respect to wrestling (easier to grip for takedowns after the fighters are sweaty), so if someone wants to take the trade-off, it’s pretty damn even.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Well, this is like the steroids are legal in japan and everyone can take them so its fair argument. Sort of, but doesn’t this assume that all non-graplers have to take oil baths from now on? I agree pants should be legal, but that doesn’t make this type of greasing ok.
no it doesn't
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
I'm sure they come in basic black
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
hahahahaha. good one. :)
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
i bet that submission is extra painful because of the additional kick to the nuts.. haaha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
Or we could make the Gi mandatory…
If they legalize pants, can fighters then grease to offset the friction advantage of the pants?
nope
greasing is cheating.
I have no problem with more submissions.
Do you?
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
I’m glad Kid Nate isn’t afraid to say “greasing IS cheating”….just as a statement, unlike “others” who have to follow it with “he didn’t mean it” “its just an excuse as to why BJ lost” “theres no proof”, etc…
no, greasing IS cheating…fact, trying to sweep it under the rug or complain that people are talking about it doesn’t change the fact that GSP (’s corner) cheated…
Greasing is cheating because it creates less friction than ungreased skin.
Grappling pants create more friction than normal.
I don’t really see why one is totally cool and the other is not, or why you could have the pants but not the wee bit of grease that you can stash in your pores.
I’d really just rather have a mandatory hot shower + an NSAC guy babysitting the fighters between then and the fight than permanently altering the balance of power in the ring by adding pants.
I like Aoki, but I also like the fact that he’d get trashed in the UFC. He is too one dimensional and those pants are the key to his success. That and half the people he fights decide to wear shoes for some reason.
Greasing is cheating because it creates less friction than ungreased skin.
Grappling pants create more friction than normal.
I don’t really see why one is totally cool and the other is not
Because Kid Nate loves Shinya Aoki and BJ Penn and hates GSP, that’s why.
I don't hate GSP
and i’m breaking the name calling rule here and calling you a dumbass.
I’m a huge GSP fan, have been since he KO’d Jay Hieron. His progression in the sport has been nothing short of amazing.
But seeing him flagrantly breaking the rules and then blaming B.J. Penn for the resulting controversy is what set me off.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 7, 2009 8:55 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If they make those pants legal, should wearing a special shirt to counteract those pants be legal?
While I agree that those pants would solve some of the problems created by greasing and make for more interesting submissions, it opens up a whole can of worm where you can potentially have a significant advantage due to equipment.
This has taken place in many sports (aluminum sticks in hockey, sticky gloves in football, better body suits in swimming, etc). I think if any equipment is going to be added it needs to be done very carefully.
I don’t think letting a BJJ guy wear grappling or gi pants is putting striking-oriented fighters at any more of a disadvantage than BJJ guys have when fighting a boxer wearing tiny gloves.
But I do agree that it’s a slippery slope and maybe even better left alone.
like I said, it stops at the pants
we’ve seen it in japan. They’re not ruining anything. They’re adding to the fun.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
But it doesn’t stop. At that point, you’re going to have people developing certain kinds of pants. There’s a bit of reality somewhere built in here that people are always going to find ways to enhance to the degree they can get away with. I don’t know how to stop that. Does taking a mineral bath help a fighter more than having a nutritionist and taking 20 pills a day? I dont know.
Exactly. Its as though Kid Nate wants MMA to remain just like it was back in the days of Gracie and Shamrock, and fighters should stop finding ways of shifting the rules to their advantage, even though thats what moves the sport forward, and it won’t ever stop.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 6, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
that is bullshit don't put words in my mouth
those days were fun at the time but the vast majority of rules changes — weight classes, no gis, rounds, standups for stalling, gloves (despite making chokes harder to get), banning headbutts and soccer kicks — are rules I think dramatically improve the sport.
the only rules I’d like to see changed in American MMA are allowing knees on the ground, changing the no kicking a downed opponent changed to no kicking a downed opponent while standing, and allowing aoki pants.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
So when you wrote all this
I hated Pat Militech.
I respect him now for his contributions to the sport, but back in the day I booed my head off everytime he got near the cage.
Why?
Because his fights were utterly, painfully boring.
Pat is a master tactician and he wrung every advantage. He cut huge amounts of weight in an era when many fighters did not cut at all. He fought conservative gameplans, relying on his excellent wrestling to keep the fight standing and rarely taking the risks to go for a KO finish.
it didn’t have anything to do with cheating or what you feel is good for the sport, it was just you bitching. Tacky, but whatever makes you happy.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 7, 2009 5:57 AM EST up reply actions
???? total non sequitor
How does my saying I don’t want the rules to go back to UFC invalidate my objections to Militech being boring and likely a cheater?
Boring fights are the absolute death of the sport. My suspicion that Militech was cheating on top of being boring is what really made me hate him.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
AND
He is strongly trying to push WAMMA in MMA. Nate it’s your job to prevent happening (I’m dead ass serious), MMA savior.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 7, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
the affect Greasing has on a fight and pills have are very different…
Greasing negates a large part of BJJ and how it’s used in MMA. Rashad hurt Forrest from the guard because forrest couldnt control his posture.
Same with BJ – he couldnt control GSP’s posture – could he have if GSP didnt grease? no one knows.
The problem is you can’t regulate grease so the pants are needed to mitigate its effects.
You can however easily regulate the pants and why material it is.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Helps him become slipperier, that’s for sure.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 6, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a bit of an overextension, Rome. Promotions regulate types of gloves you can wear (to the point that they assign them), types of athletic cups (they only check them before hand, but they can’t be pointed, spiked, etc.), and hand wraps (trainers apply them but commissions sign off). There’s absolutely no reason to believe that, were pants legalized, it wouldn’t be an open book. “Wear any kind of pants you want!” Probably not happening.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
The pant thing...
seems like the overdevelopment of bats in baseball and clubs in golf. At a certain point the equipment outshines the technique involved. Stopping greasing = good. Adding fancier new equipment = bad
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 6, 2009 9:31 PM EST reply actions
i think if those pants were legalized, it could be the start of what you were saying.. Soon they will develop pants that have more traction or something. Pants that have more grip at certain key areas, and ridges and stuff like a basketball or something..
but if they legalize only that certain kind of pants and stop there forever, i guess its okay.. unless youre right, and thats just the start of it all.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
you cant stop the greasing… the only way to mitigate it’s effects on the sport is to allow the pants.
But then...
you start to make guys HAVE to grease to negate the pants…
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, come on Brent. That’s like saying that hitters in baseball HAD to start doing roids in order to overcome the advances in training that let pitchers throw harder. (Not a perfect analogy, I know.) Or that hockey players HAVE to start illegally curving their sticks because goalies can stand with their head below the crossbar thanks to wearing masks. Fighters have adapted and advanced their styles and tactics to overcome style DISadvantages in the past, and they will on this issue too. Pants may give a short term advantage to SOME grappling guys, but it’s not permanent and it doesn’t have to lead to “cheating” to overcome it.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
My problem...
is that it isn’t a style disadvantage. It is rewarding a specific type of fighter and punishing another specific type of fighter for behavior of another.
Rather than set the playing field back to even you’re advocating slanting it completely in the other direction. The benefit created by pants only “evens” things if the other guy is greasing…otherwise it is a distinct advantage for a grappler. So to offset it I guarantee more guys would find ways to be slippery than are currently doing it now.
I like submissions as much as the next guy but that doesn’t mean I want to see the sport changed to provide an artificial means of creating more.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
This is borderline impossible to regulate isn’t it? I think the pants idea is no good at all. Invites a million worse problems.
How? What problems do the pants cause? Other than aesthetic ones?
They haven’t hurt anything in Japan.
It’s the only Japanese rule I prefer to the US set other than knees on the ground.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
One of the best things about MMA is the lack of equipment compared to other sports. Just enough to keep the fighters safe from broken hands and VD.
the pants don’t do any harm.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
i dont think it's considered equipment,
until people start developing high tech versions of those pants.. If they stick to the specific kind of cloth and dont allow other things added to it, mma will be fine and we dont have to worry about “equipment” issues..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
wait..
if a guy like brock wears those pants, wouldnt it put him in a bigger disadvantage? mir would surely be happier if brock’s legs had more friction right? or am i just an ignorant fan who doesnt know shit about magic pants? haha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
Nope, you’ve got it right. A guy like Lesnar, or at least a guy in Lesnar’s position against Mir, would never wear them.
Plus they’d have to make a special giant pair with the all-over print Jack Link Beef Jerky logo.
youre right haha. sponsors would surely love those pants because there’s more places to put bigger ads. haha.. Brock with those pants would look like he’s joining nascar.. hahaha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
on purpose doesn’t really matter, if I run a stop sign in a school zone because I didn’t see it and I get pulled over, I say “I didn’t see it”, cop says, “you broke the law”…but it shouldn’t count as breaking the law since it was (allegedly) an accident???
In your analogy, GSP would be in the passenger seat.
by Chris Nelson on Feb 6, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think there is a better phrase then “caught red handed”.
We can all come up with analogies and different examples of this, but to stick to yours. If you were caught speeding “accidentally” do you think you should have your license revoked forever? Should you lose it for 6 – 12 months? Should the police review the situation at the station and decide your punishment?
They need to make new rules about greasing and they need to monitor the fighters better.
If fighters are absorbing vaseline into their pores and taking special mineral baths, I would go so far as to request that samples of fighter’s sweat be collected between rounds and analyzed after the fight for excess amounts of lubricating agents. Extreme as that is, the cheaters have pushed it to that point.
Greasing sucks and something should be done about it besides saying nothing can be done about it.
im not a scientist but i dont think its that easy..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
it might be easy or it might be impossible, the fact is that right now they have not even made the most basic attempt to stop it
if it is impossible, then get those pants! haha.
those are easy to regulate and isnt really that bad a thing you know..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
more testing won't do anything
but create more ways for the commissions to screw things up.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
That’s true, settling issues like this as well as conducting testing and making/clarifying rules would be much better if there was a competent and independent central body.
said body would quickly become a monster
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
THANK VISHNU THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY FIGHTING TOMORROW
Can we declare a Greasegate moratorium until, like, the NSAC decides something?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 6, 2009 10:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You know...
up until I started reading this thread, I was totally on the same page… but I am all for anything that opens up discourse on Aoki pants.
by Chris Nelson on Feb 6, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
In the words of Judge Mills Lane, ’I’ll allow it.’
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 6, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
same here..
i just ignored all those greasing posts until this aoki pants thing..
it really sucks how this greasing thing takes away from big wins by lyoto,jones, and the fights tomorrow..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 6, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I don’t get why its impossible to police greasing.
If sweating gets it out of their pores, make them shower or sit in a hot tub for 10 minutes the day of the fight and don’t let them out of sight.
I’m very leery of people going over the edge; MMA has been doing just fine w/o pants. And if you think the UFC is going to do anything to encourage more ground game action, you’re crazy. It’s interesting in theory, but never going to happen.
Also, the advantage a fighter would get from 3 to 5 rounds of grappling pants far outweighs the few minutes of slight slickness that sweating out some vaseline would give.
You’re making some good points, greasing and the advantage it gives is a serious issue. Until there is a way to get it under control, solutions like grappling pants are going to be tossed around.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 6, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Was there any complaints before?
“MMA has been doing just fine w/o pants”
I think that everything was fine until this fight happened. If this was some random undercard fight, nobody would have noticed or even cared the smallest bit. Vaseline transfer from the face to the body + sweat has always been there, it’s part of the game. Now BJ complains and the freaking internet explodes. Suddenly, it’s as if it’s impossible to compete using BJJ in MMA. What? Since when? Also, again, what happened to sweat?
Seriously, everything was fine. Vaseline is good to prevent cuts on the face, just make sure it’s not applied to the body intentionally or even by mistake. What happened with Nurse is easy to prevent.
say what you want, i don’t think Dana White is gonna change anything in the UFC just to please the bitter BJ Penn fanboys or the “blogosphere”. There’s a reason why this story isn’t a big deal in the mainstream media right now. Most of it has to do with the fact that it has been overblown by fans and people who post on blogs alone.
UFC HAS NEW RULES FOR CUTMEN AND CORNERS
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=8139&zoneid=2
According to sources close to the situation, the UFC has now instructed that cornermen associated with the fighters will no longer be allowed to handle the Vaseline used in between rounds to treat and prevent cuts.
The UFC will now provide one cut man for each corner for the fight. Only two people are allowed to enter the Octagon between rounds so if a cut man is necessary to apply Vaseline or work on a cut, one of the other cornermen working with the fighter must exit the cage to allow the cut man to work.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 7, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
dualdiagnosis, do you work for the BJ Penn camp? You’ve posted well over 100 posts concerning the whole vaseline issue. Well, you and your camp got what you wanted…rule changes and talk of a rematch. Let’s hope the absence of the miniscule amount of vaseline unintentionally applied to GSP will magically give BJ Penn better cardio, a gameplan of any sort, an extra 15 pounds of functional muscle mass and a big slice of humble pie that will allow him to actually train with people who will push him to become better. Then perhaps the rematch will at least be competitive. I don’t hold out much hope for that though, he’s only won 1 out of the 7 rounds he’s gone with GSP and has an overall losing record at welterweight.
I said this above...
but I want to clarify here.
To say to add in the ‘magic pants’ because it is the only way to negate greasing is only going to lead to guys feeling like they HAVE to grease. Basically you’re saying “if you’re a guy who doesn’t grease we’re going to put you at a new disadvantage that will more or less force you to grease to get back to a level playing field.” You don’t get rid of cheating by providing more reasons to cheat.
It’s like if MLB had addressed pitchers throwing scuffed balls (or spitballs) by saying “okay batters…some pitchers are throwing cheating it’s only fair that you get to use corked bats. It’s harder for you to hit the ball…so we should make it easier to hit it hard when you do make contact”
And to say that it hasn’t changed things in Japan is very wrong. Aoki’s pants have significant impact on his fights and you hear it every time he fights. Basically it feels like guys who like submissions deciding that they’d rather change the rules to benefit submission based fighters rather than going after the true source of the issue.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 12:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
*are cheating. Not "are throwing cheating"
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Also...
is there anywhere in the rules that bans these sort of “mineral baths” or “using vaseline prior to the event?” I just think we need to be careful before we call something “cheating” if it is in no way against the rules. Yeah, it may be “outside the spirit of the sport” but there is a pretty big difference between that and cheating.
The act of applying Vaseline IN the fight is one thing. But if we’re going to change the rules to directly benefit a specific type of fighter through the introduction of special equipment…the sport is going to lose a large part of its appeal to me. You address the PROBLEM, you don’t create new problems.
You basically would be telling guys who are heavily strikers or wrestlers who rely on dominant top position that they’re now at a decided disadvantage regardless of if they have ever greased or not. Benefiting a specific type of fighter while punishing another specific type of fighter is not “evening things up” it is completely changing the game.
If you can’t tell…I’m a bit fired up over the idea of adding “equipment” to the mix.
If you want to get rid of cheating in all its forms…stop keeping track of wins and losses and don’t provide added bonuses for winning fights. In sports, winners make bank. So guys are going to find ways to bend the rules to make sure they’re the ones winning. Yeah, it doesn’t fit into the bullshit idea of MMA being all about “honor and respect” but that’s because at the end of the day MMA is just a sport played by men…same as any other sport in this world…no matter how great it is or how much we love it.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
how are pants equipment?
gloves reduce the number of submissions in the mix by making RNC’s much harder to apply.
Pants just even that out.
I personally don’t think the lay and pray should be incentivized.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Pants...
that provide an added bonus to a specific type of fighter would be considered equipment. They are not there for protection or to prevent nudity…they exist to make it easier to grapple and apply submissions.
If anything you’re going to make lay and pray MORE common with such pants because guys with a wrestling base are going to ride the top and take less risks with posturing up to throw punches as they can now be caught more easily by a guy wearing submission assisting pants.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And this is when the ref
stands Clay Guida up for stalling
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 7, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Greasing in any form is cheating
it doesn’t fit into the bullshit idea of MMA being all about "honor and respect" but that’s because at the end of the day MMA is just a sport played by men…
the problem with this perspective on our sport is that pretends to ignore the higher aspirations of the warrior ethic historically intrinsic to the martial arts. Much like Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida, GSP is a fighter, who until now, portrayed and embodied the martial artist’s ethic of self-respect and respect for your opponent.
Let’s not beat around the bush with semantics and petty arguments about the “spirit of the sport” vs. the importance to simply toe-the-line on “rules.” We all know here that greasing is bullshit, should not be tolerated in any form whatsoever and needs to be remediated all too soon.
Rafu
by rafu on Feb 7, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
eh...
I think that matters more to the hardcore base than it does to the public at large. It’s nice to pretend that somehow this sport exists on a different plane of existence than other sports…but it just doesn’t. There are guys that play every sport for the love of the game and embody what is right about competition. And then there are guys who participate in sports because they are attracted to the fame and money that comes with winning.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“is there anywhere in the rules that bans these sort of "mineral baths" or "using vaseline prior to the event?" I just think we need to be careful before we call something "cheating" if it is in no way against the rules. Yeah, it may be "outside the spirit of the sport" but there is a pretty big difference between that and cheating.”
Wow, could you be any more of an apologist? Are you a lawyer or something who always has to look for the slightest loophole to try to justify illegal activity?
no...
I’m simply saying that it isn’t illegal if it isn’t in the rules. I’ve been outspoken about the GSP situation and have sided with the Penn camp as being more than right in filing a complaint. But if it isn’t illegal to take these kinds of mineral baths then you can’t call it “illegal activity.” There has to be a rule in place for a rule to be broken.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
who doesn't like submissions?
show me the fan who is complaining because there are too many submissions.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Here is a fan against it because pants are the same thing as letting a fighter load his gloves. Just a way to let a certain fighting style get an advantage.
From a purely competitive standpoint, I don’t see the difference.
The loaded gloves are obviously worse morally (I suppose that’s the word I’m looking for), though, because they carry the added risk of injury.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
MMAWeekly has an article about UFC changing who will have access to Vaseline and the number of people that can come into the octagon in between rounds. Check it out:
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=8139&zoneid=2
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Those mineral baths are for real. I used them to counter severe skin dryness after swimming. They are pretty much pure oil, seep into your skin and do make you greasy and slick for 6-10 hours. Ancient Romans bathed in oil than scraped it off as a way to cleanse themselves (no soap back then). If you ever watched that show Rome on HBO they showed it once. Pretty much the effects are a grapplers worst enemy.
The magic pants might even things up.
I would seriously...
consider taking a break from the sport if the “magic pants” thing ever ends up happening.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There would have to be standards to the pants. If not manufactures will be racing to find ways where the grip on the pants would get so advanced you can velcro yourself to wall and climb up.
I dunno, if this is true than we might start seeing “Very Slick” as one of the three bullet points in Joe Rogan’s pre-fight, fighter summary.
GSP-PENN lll
What would people say if they do fight again and BJ submits GSP. GSP camp probably would say BJ cheated and had some sticky glue on his legs,hahaha
I haven't noticed you boycotting DREAM
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
I don't consider...
Aoki’s wins to be nearly as legitimate as if he didn’t wear those pants. I accept that Japanese MMA is a complete wild west version of the sport. I don’t like it and it is a part of the reason that I much prefer the American sanctioned promotions.
As soon as you make it the norm for those pants to be worn you have effectively completely changed the sport.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
hasn't happened in DREAM
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Making fights 3 and 5 rounds
instead of 1 round with overtime
eliminating eye gouging, fish-hooking, biting and groin shots
going to gloves over barefists all changed the sport too. The risk of punching barehanded is you break your hand if you have delicate hands.
all these changed the sport.
And all changed the rules to favor different styles of fighters. Going to rounds helped people that weren’t about stalling on the ground. Eliminating eye gouging helped everybody that fights Gerard Gordeau. And obviously gloves artificially helped anybody that wanted to punch but didn’t have hands of stone.
Gimme 1 Round!
3 and 5 round...
changed the game…yes and I think it was for the best. The others were safety concerns. I’m not willing to buy into the pants eliminating a safety concern.
Obviously you and Nate aren’t going to agree with me and I’m not going to agree with you. But I’d consider it a seriously dark day in the sport if it happens. You don’t address a problem like greasing creating an uneven playing field by creating a more uneven playing field for guys regardless of if they have cheated or not. Address the damn problem is all I’m saying…
Lucky for me, it isn’t likely to ever happen. So huzzah!
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 7, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
You act like the rules are perfectly balanced now. Aren’t grapplers at a disadvantage because they are more likely to get stood up when they finally get the fight where they want it. Also, how many times have you seen rounds end with a fighter caught in a deep submission? Having rounds is an advantage to stand up fighters because they get stood up at least once every 5 mins. Grapplers never get to have the fight start on the ground.
I highly doubt allowing grapplers to wear pants would be any more advantageous than allowing strikers to wrap their hands. You can hit a lot harder without breaking your hand with wraps so that is equipment increasing power, no? Why is it fair for strikers to have equipment to enhance their craft while grapplers can not?
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
