Affliction 2 Buyrate (Possibly) Between 150k-200k
by dropkick101 on Feb 5, 2009 10:36 AM EST
147 comments
There was a lot of talk involving the potential buyrate of Affliction: Day of Reckoning. Most gave the company little chance of success based on the fact that the show was sandwiched in between a hefty serving of Zuffa fight cards, among other things. While there are no official numbers yet, we do have some ballpark figures from those close to the company:
Published reports citing Golden Boy CEO Richard Schafer have put the figure between 150,000-200,000 buys, giving the promotion a low estimate--at $44.95 a pop--of between $6,742,500 and $8,990,000 in net revenue.
Atencio, citing his company's desire not to discuss money a la the UFC, put it this way: "We did 50% better than our last event."
Whether or not these numbers get the organization out of the red remains to be seen, but it is definitely positive information for Tom Atencio and friends. For the record, this writer said a few months back that the show could "potentially do 200k buys or more" and was verbally assaulted by many of the readers of this blog. With three UFC events in a row setting records, it looks like Affliction has been able to ride the growing success of MMA.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Impressive stuff coming out of Affliction. Those numbers, especially given the Zuffa counter-programming, are huge.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 5, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
It is interesting…not sure I believe the numbers…but interesting.
http://www.mmaforreal.com
by Kelvin Hunt on Feb 5, 2009 11:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That would lead me to believe that UFC 94 numbers may not be near the 1 million mark.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Feb 5, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why? Do u really think someone chose this PPV over UFC’s? The casual fans didn’t even know this card existed and the hardcores weren’t going to miss GSP vs BJ.
by ufc4 on Feb 5, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He does realize....
That Affliction only gets about half of the PPV money right? Then u figure in Golden Boy’s cut and I’d be surprised if they made $3 million from it.
by ufc4 on Feb 5, 2009 12:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, then you take out marketing costs and logistical costs of putting on an event, then add in concessions, advertisers/promotions, t-shirt sales, and you get a final number – and we don’t have that information. it would seem likely they still didn’t pull a profit, but they at least lost a bunch less than last time. any new business venture is going to lose money initially, you just want to minimize the loss so that you can continue operating to the point wher eyou can make it back. the question is whether affliction has lost too much. whatever the case, these numbers are still a good sign for them.
by dropkick101 on Feb 5, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
from same article:
But assuming the standard 40 percent take for promoters in a pay per view event and a 50 percent improvement from 100,000 buys, a low estimate for Afflction/Golden Boy’s pay per view take would be $2,697,000. Combined with total gate receipts of $1,429,557, the event could have produced $4,126,557 in gross revenue, excluding other sources like merchandising and sponsorships.
The total cost of the event is still unknown, although I’ve heard numbers ranging anywhere from $7-10 million. Regardless, even at the buy rates Affliction and Golden Boy are claiming, they still likely lost a great deal of money.
http://www.mmaconvert.com/2009/02/05/tom-atencio-on-ppv-we-did-50-better-than-our-last-event/
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oops, I didn’t make it clear that those two quotes were different sources.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There a huge between $7 – $10 million. Why didn’t the writer just guess between $5 – $10 million than he would have a chance of being 99% correct.
Anyways here are the hard cost I’m sure I know:
$3.3 million Fighter Payroll
$2 million M-1 Global – $300k already paid to Fedor
$250k Arena rent
? Lighting effects
? Press Conferences . . . it doesn’ cost a lot to rent a banquet hall and fly fighters in
??? Advertising . . . anyone want to accuse Affliction for spending too much on advertising?
Anyways that’s $5.25 million in hard cost. I would guess with everything else they probably spent a total of $2 million more. They knew 200k in PPV was going to be the ceiling so I don’t see how they would over spend beyond on that.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t guessing he was reporting the range he had heard.
Do you know that arena rent was $250K? How much does it cost to staff an event and pay all the non-fighters involved with Affliction? Taxes, fees and licensing expenses? Event prduction? TV production? Insurance cost? Golden Boy’s fee or percentage? Trump’s fee or percentage? Advertising (it might not of been enough but they did spend money)? Losses from cancelling Day of Reckoning the first time? There are all sorts of expenses to putting on a show.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I was making fun of what he was reporting, $7-$10 million isn’t a revealing figure.
Arena cost are around $250k, I’m pretty solid on that figure. WNBA games and kid shows rent arenas which fill half way for very cheap tickets and still make buck.
Taxes, fees and licensing expenses. I’ve seen a couple figures before on licensing fees for other events the cost don’t run that high, nothing compared to these other expenses. Taxes are added onto the price of tickets at purchase and if you lose money on a venture their isn’t much of an income tax.
The rest of the items you mentioned get a bit confusing when talking Affliction and their deals. Part of the $2 million contract with M-1 Global is M-1 provides some of the staff, event production and commentators for TV. Affliction Clothing was using their staff to fill in the rest of the grunt labor. Also, part of the $250k arena cost pays staff who handle some of those duties.
Insurance, Golden Boy and Trumps percentage, who knows? Safe to assume they get a cut but there is only speculation as to whether they are or are not funding some of the costs for the event.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it’s a big range but just like everything else in this sport big ranges are all we ever get in terms of numbers.
Taxes will come out in numerous means, so who knows but it is an expense. I don’t think the license and fees are too much either although I don’t know if CSAC gets a percentage cut of the event like some other states do(I thought it was a 5% cut of ticket sales?).
As far as what M-1 supplies as far as personel, I can’t imagine the bring in too many people from overseas to work a event and I doubt they fly in any equipment at all, that would be very expensive in it’s own right. There is a heck of a lot that goes into production of a show of that size. I’m sure just the video side of things was extremely expensive to produce. The grunt labor isn’t an issue (most likely supplied by the arena) but the skilled labor would of been significant and there are a lot of people that work behind the scenes of a promotion that have to get paid too.
I don’t know what insurance rate they got but I’m pretty sure CSAC requires $50k of short term insurance on fighters for an event paid for by the promoter, that wouldn’t be negligable and doesn’t count any event or location insurance they would of taken out too.
Golden Boy and Trump’s involvement is the real question here and I’m sure we will never get a straight answer. Still I am sure Golden Boy was paid a significant fee for producing the event.
The press conference cost could be misleading, the way Affliction has them could add up over time, not to mention the cost of the employees who work these events. Stil I’m sure it was less than the money they wasted wrapping a whole NASCAR for example.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Likely” they didn’t pull a profit? I think it’s pretty much a guarantee they lost money, the question is did they lose $1 million or $4 million? We’ll probably never know that for sure but I think we will get a pretty good idea when they announce their future plans.
by ufc4 on Feb 5, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever happened to...
Afflictions collapse?
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/29/740362/affliction-is-done
Guess the rumor wasn’t true.
by mythbuster on Feb 5, 2009 12:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
just because these numbers are an improvement over the last show doesn’t mean the company isnt going to shut down. i think thats still up in the air after they finish up the third show.
by dropkick101 on Feb 5, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The rumor was that they were done for sure, that they would be announcing it in the next few days.
by mythbuster on Feb 5, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it turns out those were just nasty rumours and mmalogic is a Zuffa schill/employee
by smoogy on Feb 5, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a rumor or did anything ever come to light from that?
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we wait until they actually schedule/book their next show before we declare them fully solvent?
by subo on Feb 5, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked his predictions on Dropkicks old thread
I got a good laugh from his bullshit on that one
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 5, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s why you never believe anything from someone with the last name of Rome
by KneesnBows on Feb 6, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is definitely interesting and a bright spot for Affliction if true. However, I wouldn’t get overly excited over this report. Even if the PPV buys number is legit, they still have a cost structure issue, and there are several entities involved. All of which have to capture value from these shows.
by Cannon Jacques on Feb 5, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, there last event did a liberal 85k buys.
So, 50% of that is 42.5k buys, which I’ll round up to 43k because I’m a swell guy and I hate fractions.
So, according to wacky earring guy, they did 128k buys this time around.
According to the most recent Wrestling Observer, Golden Boy receives 20% of the PPV revenues for renting the venue and handling the commission. That obviously comes out of Afflictions take of the PPV revenues. And let’s say they get 50% of the gross PPV revenues (which they don’t; it’s probably 40% or less, but for the sake of argument). After Golden Boy gets their 20% cut, Affliction get 30% of the PPV revenues. At $50 per buy at 128k buys, that works out to $1.92 million.
Then, there’s the live gate: $1.5million on 8k+ paid. Adding that to the unrealistically high PPV revenue, and Affliction grossed $3.42 million on their Day of Reckoning show.
We then take into consideration the payroll for Day of Reckoning, which a quick glance here shows as $4.6 million. So, we subtract the $4.6 million in payroll expenses from the gross revenues of $3.42 million, and Affliction ended up losing $1.18 million.
None of this takes into account ancillary revenues from the sales of t-shirts to the total reported attending audience of ~13k. But, I feel like if Affliction can make enough in revenues from t-shirt sales at an event with such little promotion and with such heavy papering that it would behoove them to forgo the promotion business and focus on selling shirts at UFC and other MMA events, where costs and workload would be reduced exponentially, making returns on shirt sales all the more favorable.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Feb 5, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also fees from HDNet (Undercard for North America), Bravo (U.K.), HBO Plus(Mexico and Latin America), and all those other companies that broadcasted the show.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 5, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Affliction, unlike the UFC, has other revenue coming into them (Buckle, etc), which makes it pretty tough to say how much they lost/gained from an event.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 5, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is “Buckle?”
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Feb 5, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Buckle is a flashy overpriced clothing store that puts up Affliction event posters in their store before PPV’s.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So is it more like Hot Topic or Nordstroms, both of which can probably be described in that way (posters aside) depending on who you are.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Feb 5, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s like what you would get if Hot Topic and Abercrombie & Fitch had a demon baby.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Affliction entertainment is paying The Buckle to advertise the show not the other way around. There is a difference between Affliction entertainment and Affliction clothing. What are these other revenue streams that Affliction entertainment has that Zuffa doesn’t?
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Buckle Sells Affliction
So it is really a win win for both.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 5, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Buckle sells clothes to people like my 17 year old daughter, the ppv doesn’t help their sales, if anything on a local level Affliction kiosk at the shows are taking away sales from them.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they for sure getting rights fees from HDNet, Bravo, and HBO Plus, or is this a situation like The Ultimate Fighter on Spike where the promoter pays for everything and the network gets the pleasure of filling time with their product?
I’m not privy to the numbers, either way. Inform me.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Feb 5, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know HDNet for sure helps out any MMA org financially when they get broadcasting rights to their content.
Spike is a bit different than Bravo in the U.K. and HBO Plus, I believe, but not certain.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 5, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we don’t know what financial contributions they are giving to Affliction at any rate. Maybe HDNet is just covering the production costs of Affliction events that air on their network and that’s it. That’s what they are going to be doing with Ring of Honor and I feel like they probably do the same with some of the smaller MMA promotions on HDNet because…I mean, why would you pay to broadcast some of those events?
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Feb 5, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say the undercard a to PPV carries a higher price tag than a regional show trying to break TV ground. I’m guessing the HDNet deal does pay for production with a little profit left over for the promoter but not a windfall.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There were a few more foreign networks that carried the event but not much more.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UFC had to do that the first time around with Spike, typically all TV networks make the show carry the gamble on costs. Once good ratings come in, it’s the TV network that gets raked over the coals. I bet UFC is now sticking it to Spike . . . but Spike is willing to pay because their programming brings viewers.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Loretta Hunt reported 115k buys for Banned. Meltzer’s final report said it was about 100k. So going on those figures (the best we have), 50% more would be 150k-175k.
by smoogy on Feb 5, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meltzer reported a range of 65k to a high of 100k not “about 100k”, that does make a difference.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, his most recent report was:
“The first event did about 100,000 buys, which was the best number for a non-UFC MMA event in history, but a major money loser for an event Atencio had previously said would need 250,000 buys to break even.” – Dave Meltzer
by smoogy on Feb 5, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Argue not with the Smoog
He’s a real person that actually does comb the WWW for information. Not a ZUFFA employee sitting at a keyboard with a cup of coffee and a clipboard that tells him what points the company wants to drive home for that day.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 5, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
smoogy: Thanks I missed that article. When did Hunt say 115,000?
other two knuckleheads: seriously, get a life.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Golden Boy and Affliction are here to stay! This is a card that had to compete with 2 UFC events and a Marquee boxing fight right across town. If this event was able to generate 150-200k in PPV buys plus a substantial gate you can expect to see a hell of a lot more of Affliction FC. Lets face it the brain trust at Golden Boy are not dumb, they can see the massive growth of the UFC in the last 5 years and are making excellent headway with there own brand inside the first 2 shows. They’ll lose 15 million to in a year to make 50 million over 5. Theyre doing an excellent job of differentiation their brand from the UFC and are growing a substantial fan base.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 5, 2009 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nah. They’re still dead after one more money losing show.
by subo on Feb 5, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Golden Boy and Affliction are here to stay! This is a card that had to compete with 2 UFC events and a Marquee boxing fight right across town. If this event was able to generate 150-200k in PPV buys plus a substantial gate you can expect to see a hell of a lot more of Affliction FC.
A lot more huh? If that’s the case why are they only putting on shows once every 6 months? I disagree with the overall tone of this post, if Affliction did so well why do they not plan on doing another event until summer? Assuming they did build some kind of momentum from DOR that will all be forgotten by the time their next show comes around. And without some concrete proof I’m not believing they lost less than $3 million on this show. So what if they sold a bunch of extra T shirts? If they sold a $50 shirt to everybody who went to the show and everyone who bought the PPV then they made an extra million bucks. If you lost $3 million on the show and sold an extra $1 million of shirts you still lost $2 million, that’s not good business, especially in this economy. I enjoyed the show (besides Tito’s commentary) and think they have a good product, they just don’t have a sustainable business model. You can’t pay Tim Sylvia $800,000 or Andrei Arlovski $1.5 million AND pay guys on the undercard $200-400 thousand each. Affliction can afford to have ONE big money fight on their card, not 4 or 5. They need to do a better job of marketing their product, lower ticket prices, renegotiate their contracts with the fighters, and do a show once every 3 or 4 months to keep people interested in their product. If they start doing things the right way then they can survive, unfortunately I’m not sure if they plan on doing that.
by ufc4 on Feb 5, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
First, they don’t have a roster that allows them to do more shows.
Second, just because someone can’t prove their numbers to you it doesn’t mean they have to accept your numbers.
Third, all indications show buys increased between DOR and Banned, which means they don’t have to put on a show with less delay to keep people interested in their product.
by bignerd on Feb 5, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They don’t have a roster big enough? Then go get one, if they can get 2 former UFC champs and Fedor signed then they can find other guys to fight. Also, wasn’t DOR originally scheduled for 4 months after Banned? If they can turn around that quickly they can do at least 3 shows a year.
Also, they CAN prove their numbers, they just don’t want to because they are embarassed they lost so much money. If you think they didn’t lose millions on this show you’re nuts.
Finally, just because they increased their buys doesn’t mean they couldn’t increase them MORE if they had more exposure. If Fedor had fought Barnett in October and beaten him (as well as Arlovski fighting whoever and looking impressive) you don’t think they could have drawn even better this time?
by ufc4 on Feb 5, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And the competition to have big names between UFC/SF/Dream/WVR/Affliction, will only push those costs higher.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 5, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Golden Boy is gonna start flexing its muscles now that its seen what affliction can do on its own. If golden boy puts its promotional arm behind an Affliction event the caliber of DOR It’ll do at least 250 thus far they’ve just paid AFC lip service and put their logo on the AFC posters, and they certainly didn’t help anything by booking that boxing card. If they put there back into this you’ll see a legit number 2 emerge and it ain’t strikeforce.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 5, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Golden Boy seriously wanted to get into MMA they would just get into MMA not share with the other half dozen “partners” Affliction has.
by who me on Feb 5, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would they build their promotion around? Your not going to get Fedor with out M1 global and none of the other available players outside of Carano have the draw or mystique to make it worth while. Affliction has a very big brand presence with in the MMA community like it or not and has done a good job of getting themselves established as a high end MMA event. Golden Boy has been waiting to see if the demand was there for this kind of show and obviously it is. Golden Boy also may want stay arms length production wise to preserve their credibility within the boxing community. I think in the next three months you see GB make a large investment in Affliction FC.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 5, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a very good argument. I wasn’t even considering Golden Boy’s desire to appear pro boxing while being in the MMA business. Of course it’s smart to jump onto an existing brand instead of starting your own. We all know the heavy cost to start a promotion and get your name off the ground and there aren’t any available Fedor’s for hire.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well without someone like Golden Boy heavily investing in Affliction they won’t be around much longer so getting the fighters isn’t as big of an issue. Golden Boy is used to HBO paying for everything not investing their own money into events, why would they invest into Affliction events that are huge money losers and look to be that way for the forseeable future? What Golden Boy is getting now out of Affliction is a payday without financial risk, if they were going to risk their own money why would they do that in someone else’s promotion when they already are a fight promoter themselves?
As far as protecting their brand in boxing it’s too late for that as they have already talked big about MMA and attached their name to an MMA event, what more could it hurt to got that last step into actual MMA fight promoter?
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
After event three, they are clear of a lot of the ridiculous contracts like Lindland and Arlovski. Obviously those inflated salaries are going to have a residual impact, and Affliction will likely still have to overpay to compensate for sponsorship dollars lost. But you have to realize, Golden Boy is in the business of promoting fights and selling PPVs, and if these Affliction buyrate reports are accurate, they would see this for what it is: an astounding success given the mercurial nature of their star fighters like Emelianenko, and a lack of TV support programming outside of a patchwork of FSN specials, promo spots and the HDNet prelim card. Obviously there is a lot more to it, but the potential is undeniable.
Will Golden Boy invest directly? I have no idea. But I would suspect they are going to support Affliction in a big way, it is in their best interest to keep this thing rolling.
by smoogy on Feb 6, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly it seems that it is in their best interest to keep milking Affliction for production fees until they fold and then buy off their “select” assets and start running their own promotion based off that. They can keep going as they are now, get their feet wet, make contacts and work their way into MMA without taking risk with their own money then when the time is right they can have thier cake and eat it too. Affliction is a mess of partnerships and sketchy deals and inflated expenditures, why invest in that when you can get the inside track on only having to take the good parts for yourself later? Golden Boy without the Affliction baggage could really take this to the next level.
Affliction 2 wasn’t a success it was a huge money loser than may of got more viewers than the last money losing show. Lets face it the suspected number that people are getting so excited over is still half of what the UFC got off the lackluster UFC 93 show. Yes they seem to be improving but they still have a long way to go before they can actually be considered in any way sucessful. Affliction is doing all the heavy and expensive work to try and get established but they could lose big money for years before they get anywhere.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The big number for any promotion is paying viewers not the cost. The cost to put on events can be adjusted, getting viewers that come back is a necessity. If these number for DOR hold up it means Affliction/Golden Boy has audience to work with, something it took the UFC until 2005 to achieve . . . than what happened?
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 2:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets face it none of us have any idea how much they made or lost the peripheral costs vs income are so speculative that its really just conjecture. All things considered this event has preformed well above expectations and against all odds. The initial growing pains are over and as long as they have enough capital to get through show 3 and clear of some of their more ridiculous contracts they’ll continue to grow and become more and more profitable. I think golden boy will provide a significant investment and get in while they can.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 6, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The UFC built the sport in the US, Affliction is just taking advantage of the current popularity, you can’t really compare how long it took the UFC to how long it will take Affliction. Affliction had to cancel one show already and there is no guarantee that everyone will come back next time to see the show. Don’t let some good news cloud an objective view of where Affliction currently is because they are still got a long way to go. Losing 4 million instead of 6 million is still a Pyhrric victory at this point, they are losing unacceptable amounts of money and haven’t got to a level of viewers that makes this sustainable. If they can find a way to make it to 2010 and continue to grow then we may have something to get excited about.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 3:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Before anyone says anything yes I made up the numbers because we don’t know how many millions they are losing but that doesn’t change the point.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SEG
built the sport in the US. Dana and the Fertittas had nothing to do with that. They just had to do with calling in favors on the NSAC, (which Lorenzo ran), to get it resanctioned then proceeded to make money.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 7:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look past your blind UFC hate for a few seconds. The Ultimate Fighter built the casual fanbase to a point where it could become mainstream. Before that it was just this cult thing happening.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re-sanctioned? It was never sanctioned before that and it didn’t make any impact or money for 4 years after that. TUF established and grew the sport to where it is today, without TUF MMA wouldn’t be on tv and probably wouldn’t exist at all in the US today. Of course it was still the UFC under the old ownership too, they changed ownership (from the guys who have now brought us Yamma and Xarm) but that doesn’t change the fact that the UFC has been MMA in the US from the start.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MMA was fully sanctioned in New Jersey before Zuffa purchased the UFC. And it could have been sanctioned in Nevada too, if voting NSAC members who later became Zuffa executives had allowed it to happen.
by smoogy on Feb 6, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and that is completly 100% irrelevant to the point I was making.
The UFC was still the UFC before and after the Zuffa purchase and the UFC built the sport in the US. Honestly I couldn’t give a fat rats ass who owned them at what time because that had nothing to do at all with the point I was making. Who owned it when and why doesn’t change the fact that the UFC has always been the focal point of MMA in the US. Silly ass hating on the Dana and the Ferititta’s was completly irrelevant and unneccessary and is really getting old.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just telling you it was sanctioned before Zuffa came along.
by smoogy on Feb 6, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and i am saying I don’t care. I know who santioned what and when and I just don’t care because it still doesn’t change anything at all about the point I was making and I am really mad at myself for getting drug down into this silliness and I think I am going to go make myself an ice cream cone and watch Scrubs.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except it proves my arguement
and you wrong. Thats why you don’t care. When the UFC started under SEG it was MAKING MONEY and doing well. When it was basically outlawed it started losing money. It was sanctioned in Jersey but nowhere else would sanction it. It was poised to be sanctioned in Nevada which is the tipping point for sanctioning elsewhere but it never happened with Lorenzo as the Commissioner of the board. The UFC was then sold to Lorenzo and it was sanctioned. The rest was simple. It got back on PPV and people started watching again. My point being UFC built MMA – But it was the UFC that was stolen out from under SEG’s nose not anything the Fertitta’s did.
So my point is – Dana and the Fertitta’s didn’t build MMA – Thus the new UFC didn’t build MMA. SEG BUILT MMA
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I said:
The UFC built the sport in the US, Affliction is just taking advantage of the current popularity, you can’t really compare how long it took the UFC to how long it will take Affliction.
Where in that statement did I mention Zuffa? Where in that statement did I mention the Fertitta’s? What in the hell are you talking about when you are actually agreeing with me that in the United States of Freaken America MMA has always been associated with the UFC? I couldn’t give a fat monkey with the clap if it was Zuffa or SEC or Bill Gates who owned the company at any point in that time as it was always known as the UFC and that is the company that has always been associated with MMA in the US. You didn’t prove me wrong at all you completely agreed with my point but decided to take a shot at Zuffa for some silly ass reason while doing it. You are so stuck on looking for a reason to hate on the UFC that you are reading shit into post that isn’t even there.
Lets get one thing completely straight right now, I am absolutely thrilled that the Fertitta’s took the UFC away from the King Biscuit Flour Hour guy, it’s a shame that they didn’t use their “mafia contacts” to have them “rubbed out” before they cursed the world with Yamma Pit Fighting or Xarm extreme arm wrestling. I don’t care if they did it by delaying a vote or through satanic rituals I am just thrilled that those goofs got knocked out of the loop. It’s not that I didn’t know how things are rumored to of gone down it’s that I just don’t care as the buyout improved the product substantially in my eyes.
I know what business the UFC did when the first started, I was 24 years old and watching the shows, I also know just what those shows were compared to what the company is now and it isn’t even comparable, heck it isn’t even comparable to what the company was in 2001. Still that doesn’t in any way change my original point that the promotion “The UFC” built the entire sport in the US.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Affliction having to cancel the Oct. show had to do with the UFC bullying them out of Las Vegas, where the UFC spends millions and millions annually and the Fertittas family connections run deep. If the October show had been set for California or Illinois there is no way they would have needed to cancel it. In fact had Affliction not wasted such a big chunk of add money on that ill advised attempt to say “Fuck You” to the UFC, they probably would have done even bigger numbers at day of reckoning and we both know it. A National PPV franchise is gonna lose money in the beginning as I said previously, the key is growing each time out and getting better with each show they’re doing both these things and faster then most expected. You’ll see Affliction in 2010 and twice more in 2009. Oh and your speculation on their losses is entirely the point.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 6, 2009 7:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was ticket buys that sank that show.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They weren't able to advertise pretty much anywhere in Vegas
Lorenzo and friends called in some favors with their casino buddies whom they are a cash cow for with ZUFFA events.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the fact that that they are still losing big money not the exact amounts that was the point. All the stuff in Vegas is pure speculation too, we don’t know what happened besides the show just wasn’t selling tickets. We do know that they not only moved to a different city they rebooked the event with different fights and a completly different main event. If the difference wasn’t the city it was Fedor on the card then it doesn’t really bode all that well for Affliction (unless they plan on never having a show without him).
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
C’mon man get your head out of the clouds. The only reason Pride was able to run in Vegas was Ed Fishman. Affliction didn’t have a guy like Ed to circumvent all the connections that Zuffa has and so they got fucked. The reason they changed the main event was because they had a 1/4 the advertising budget they would of otherwise due to the failed show in Vegas coupled with the fact that Fedor was ready to go, so why not go with the bigger fight with the better draw? As for doing shows with out Fedor if they time it right Im sure they could, that said I doubt they’ll do that many W/O him.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 6, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to be the one with his head in the clouds with the rosey view of Affliction not failing as bad as before wth this show. They still are bleeding money and have a lot of problems and slightly better buyrates aren’t going to change that.
As far as the Vegas show, they booked the event and an arena and advertised fairly heavily for it then cancelled at the last minute. Are we to believe that the UFC didn’t use it’s pull to keep them from booking a show in Vegas but then used their magical pull to get fans to not buy tickets at the last minute? The conspiracy theory would make more sense if Affliction couldn’t of got the show established in Vegas as opposed to cancelling it right before it happened.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they let them put down a deposit pour in the advertising money and then leaned on casinos and ticket vendors by threatening there access to future UFC, events does it really seem that crazy.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 6, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well if Affliction was silly enough to try and promote in Vegas to start with then that is still their fault but don’t try and convince me that the UFC has so much power in Vegas that they can keep another company from buying commercial time on tv or putting up a couple of billboards or that they were able to convince an arena that had already agreed to the show to somehow sabotage things or got ticket sellers that were selling tickets to “secretly” stop selling them unless you have some kind of factual source for your statements.
Obviously the UFC wasn’t going to make it easy on them but unless you have proof of your accusations (and no Tom Atencio whining about it doesn’t count as a factual source) then it’s still all just hearsay and rumor. If the UFC was doing these things and Affliction had any actual proof of it happening then someone would of ended up in court by now over it because that would of been highly illegal.
Of course none of that would of been an issue at all with Golden Boy involved in the promotion yet they still decided to do the next show in LA too. Conspiracy theory about them being run out of Vegas or just that they realized that the LA market was a much smarter choice for ther potential ticket sales?
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but don’t try and convince me that the UFC has so much power in Vegas that they can keep another company from buying commercial time on tv or putting up a couple of billboards or that they were able to convince an arena that had already agreed to the show to somehow sabotage things or got ticket sellers that were selling tickets to "secretly" stop selling them unless you have some kind of factual source for your statements.
It might have had a little bit to do with UFC but the real reason they cancelled is because they weren’t selling any tickets. DOR probably sold less legitimate tickets (i.e. tickets NOT bought by Affliction) than Banned did, as I believe Michael Rome mentioned earlier there were blocks of 15 seats together available 2 days before the event. They did piss poor marketing for the event and nobody even knew it was happening. When they cancelled DOR in Vegas they had probably sold less than 1,000 tickets, they can blame UFC all they want but it was mostly due to their own incompetence.
by ufc4 on Feb 6, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
advertised in NYC
The advertising in Vegas was nonexistant
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
getting a bigger roster while watering down there product runs counter productive to there model of a stacked card every 4 months. Plus we haven’t even begun to see what golden boy can do if they really get behind this. If anything they have got in the way of afflictions success by booking the Mosley fight on the same day across town.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Feb 5, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How is their model to run a show every 4 months when they’ve done two shows that were 6 months apart and aren’t scheduling another show for at least another 6 months?
by ufc4 on Feb 6, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um your math sucks dude
If they only sold 100,000 PPV’s and they sold a 50 dollar shirt to each of them thats 5 million. So if they sold 175K that would be 7.5 million dollars.
Not that it would ever happen but if you’re gonna do basic math do it right.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 7:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one should believe any numbers coming from Atencio and company, the first show got about 85k buys yet Tommy Boy continues to claim that is did well over 100k. Unless Meltzer backs up these claims i’m calling bs on anything that is said by anyone dealing with Affliction and so should everybody else.
by Raker on Feb 5, 2009 6:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
maybe you should read above
Because your words will be mighty tasty
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 5, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"The first event did about 100,000 buys, which was the best number for a non-UFC MMA event in history, but a major money loser for an event Atencio had previously said would need 250,000 buys to break even." – Dave Meltzer
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 5, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That estimate was for the first show. It’s my belief based on my own observations that they spent much more advertising the first show than DOR.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He also vastly understated, thinking he would set it low and then they’d hit it. They also weren’t giving away nearly as much of the buyrate money to others (showtime and goldenboy) for the first show. My impression is they are making about $14 per buy. Some have said it’s less, but we’ll use that number for the sake of math.
From what I understand under their rate normally they’d get 20, but at 20% to Goldenboy it brings it down to 16, and they are giving showtime a cut as well. In other words, given the fact that their “gate” was mostly bought themselves, they probably need closer to 390,000 buys to break even.
Total costs of this show (4.6m payroll) + major advertising campaign and other assorted costs have been estimated to me around 6.5 million. They sold (at the absolute best) 1 million of their gate, and I’ll give them that for the sake of this. At $14 per buy, they’d need 392,000 buys to break even. If they’re getting less than 14 it’s even worse.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 5:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I should say I believe the people who tell me that the number is lower than 14. Showtime PPV access does not come cheaply.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 5:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch.
Da ist keine Stelle, die dich nicht sieht.
by Eugene Schelfaut on Feb 6, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The gate was a legit $1.5 million, no funny business.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it wasn’t. 7 days before the event, thousands of empty seats you could widely pick up in groups of 15. Then, overnight, a huge number disappeared. They were bought by Affliction. The gate was as legitimate as Enron’s accounting.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct, they had plenty of seats available in block sections to be purchased days prior to the event.
If the arena would have sold out they would have grossed under $3 million in live gate and above 14k tickets sold.
Prior to event they had sold around 40% of their tickets. Tickets were sold off one section at a time by ticket price range, explains why you could buy blocks of seats for each ticket level. 3-7 days prior to the event, there gate was around $1.3 million in sales: 55% of the floor sold, 50% lower deck sold and 30% upper deck sold.
According Kevin Iole they gave away around 3300 tickets which takes up the remaining floor/lower deck seats and part upper deck. Than they sold there remaining upper tier tickets for $39.99 the day of event to fill up arena to 13k attendees, 8900 paid. Which does put the gate around $1.5 million.
The $1 million dollars you hearing is how much money in tickets they gave way in that 3300 batch but they didn’t count those tickets as revenue in their gate report.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s not.
They did not sell 8900 tickets. Kevin Iole is just reporting CSAC numbers of comps. In addition to comps, just like for their first show, they purchased large blocks of tickets that go into the paid number, and then gave those away too.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He reported the ticket sales for Affliction Banned with number that CSAC said paid and the number that actually paid.
For DOR he just reported one figure because this time around they were the same.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only difference is last time he had a source telling him it and this time he doesn’t. I don’t know anyone among MMA journalists or in the UFC or elsewhere that believes that paid figure is legitimate.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They would know if they spent 5 minutes checking ticketmaster.com each day. It was easy to track because you just needed to check off ticket sections. If tickets were sold at section 410 Tuesday than sold at 413 Friday it meant section 410 was now sold out.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said earlier if it comes from Meltzer then case closed, but until we hear from him on the second show i’ll continue to have my doubts.
by Raker on Feb 6, 2009 5:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Affliction should absolutely get involved with strikeforce now, imo. Get Fedor a couple of easy fights on CBS an get him “out there”.
I don’t really need the UFC and 5 other promotions struggling to stay afloat. I would much rather have those shows work together and co-promote cards as “competition” to the UFC. get all the fighters under one big umbrella, etc. Sort of like EXC was doing, but in a successful, less scummy manner.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 6, 2009 3:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I believe we will see this VERY soon.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 6, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not if Cokers smart
Dana might let him on Showtime or maybe even on CBS. If they do anything involving Affliction they become a threat to be killed with fire
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They couldn’t afford to put Affliction’s big names on tv, Fedor alone would cost more than CBS is willing to shell out for entire events, the margins are going to be tight putting on shows with Strikeforce current talent. Strikeforce now has a decent tv contract but that doesn’t mean that they are all the sudden backed by a huge war chest of liquid funding.
Now Affliction doing like they did with EliteXC where they basically eat the cost of one match on the show would be another story but that probably would draw the UFC’s attention.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FIrst off we need to understand what revenue is…
Affliction doesn’t get the $45 so you can’t count that as revenue. The PPV companies get the money then they pay showtime which then pays golden boy and affliction.
Golden Boy is getting 20% of the $45…
Affliction’s REVENUE is about $11 per.
Now let’s move on to the ppv buys:
One high-level source said that Affliction’s pay-per-view did about 10 percent less than its inaugural show in July. The source said the first show finished with between 90,000 and 100,000 sales, while the second show did between 80,000 and 90,000
Source: http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Further, Attencio, when pressed would not guarantee that there would be a third show:
The easy-going Atencio, who would not guarantee that Affliction would promote a third show after sustaining huge losses on the first two, agreed with White that MMA has yet to hit mainstream.
Source: http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-ufcbiz-013009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Affliction as you see it is done… and Zuffa will not be liquidating their liabilities…
The best bet for affliction is to assign their fighters to Strikeforce in return for their t-shirt business being a primary sponsor for strikeforce events.
This way they can actually get some sort of return for their expenses (advertising that actually gets eyeballs for their shirts) and help ensure an outlet for them in this market space – outside of Zuffa which they are blacklisted.
As for strikeforce:
Everyone knows the numbers…
With the TV deals, Strikeforce can run a national b-league profitably. Strikeforce doesn’t have 40m plus to burn like Elite did so unless they get another revenue source (afflitcion teaming up with them) they will not be challenging Zuffa for top tier fighters.
The conundrum with this:
Even though this will work on showtime it will not with CBS – because in order to make the numbers work on CBS you need a UFC PPV caliber card (and payroll)…
so either the CBS deal will eventually die out and they will just stick with Showtime or they will make their play challenge Zuffa.
The challenge here will be: getting to PPV and making it work fast enough – before you bleed dry.
We all know the numbers… if Zuffa wants to bleed Strikeforce dead – it can be done within 18 months and even earlier depending on how aggressive they get.
Now the Monte’s of the world will not be fighting the contract transfers because for Monte it’s more important that another viable option is their for all his fighters than to get Robbie Lawler a new contract with more money.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 7:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
My understanding is the CBS deal has been reworked. It’s still not good, but not the ultimate doom it once was.
If the Goldenboy number is actually 20% on the 45 dollars as opposed to 20% on the 20, that makes a huge difference which does push it to 11 per buy. That’s something worth finding out.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But yea, the conundrum as you put it is you have to give it all away just to get good enough ratings to survive, so how do you sell PPV shows? Need a much deeper roster of stars.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the ZUFFA shill
Is Romes source
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well according to you, EVERYONE is a zuffa shill.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
Only logic -
Subo is a fanboy
Cyph is beyond fanboy into ZUFFA lovechild
you’re a fan… New or old I can’t tell
Logic is the only person i’ve smelled shill off of.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been a fan for about a year now I think, casually saw it for a while before that though. Only in the last year have I been trolling the internet for any information about things.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he’s not. I just corrected him on the CBS deal.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One problem with bleeding Strikeforce is they own their own arena. In addtion to what they make at the gate to offset their payroll they also keep the arena’s parking fees and money off concession stands which gives them an edge over other promoters. It’s near an extra $500k in revenue for a full arena.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is, Zuffa can do it, they could get into a price war and make strikeforce pay way too much. But I don’t think they will. Not in their long term interests.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zuffa would win a price war. However, avoiding a price war is exactly the reason they are so intent on crushing all other promotions off the bat.
Once they bump up the payroll for fighters there is no going back. The price of labor never does go back down without a huge skirmish, monopoly or no monopoly.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The big question in a possible price war scenario is how much sponsorship money the TV deals could get the fighters. Currently, other promotions have to bid much higher than Zuffa in order to match the greater sponsorship money that being on a UFC card can get for the fighters.
by iiowyn on Feb 6, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think that rule only applies to certain fighters.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zuffa doesnt need to get into a price war…
The current prices that are set would bleed Strikeforce dead.
Strikeforce can remain profitable and viable as a national b-league with these TV contracts.
This is not the time to challenge Zuffa… if they are smart they should just try their best and sacrifice the CBS ratings and worst case the time on CBS is gone. No worries as the meat here and most long term promise is the time on showtime.
Once Strikeforce gets it’s footing then it will be better prepared to deal with Zuffa.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mark Cuban owns his own arena, has his own channel, and a ton of cash…
even he saw the futility of going up against Zuffa.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is funny! Mark Cuban backed down, really?
Mark Cuban is the premier .dot business man. He starts a company, makes it show some promise than sells the business for an astronomical amount to some poor buyer who will never recoup that money.
Cuban isn’t the guy interested in wasting his resources building something slowly that may pay off in the long haul. Cuban’s business plan would be the 3 show Affliction model than ideally sell. He is great at it and uses the money for his hobby which are the Mavericks.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you not know that he had plans for putting on more than 6 shows in 08? Do you not know that after putting on one show – he then stopped and shelved it?
So now what pray tell is “backing down” if that’s not it?
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His plan was to put on Randy vs Fedor fight which would have brought in big numbers. Using the favorable data he would have sold it for high profit.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HDNet fights has never put on another event and went totally with running other promotion’s events on the channel. Yes Mark Cuban wanted the Randy vs Fedor fight but that wasn’t the only thing he was trying to do, Cuban said he was going to break into the sport as a promoter but they haven’t done anything at all since.
by who me on Feb 6, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with the quote is who is Kevin’s high level source? He was quoting UFC management throughout the article so it suggests that Kevin’s high level source for Affliction’s business totals is also someone in UFC management who didn’t want that quote to go on record. They guy on record, Richard Schaefer was quoted at 175,000 – 200,000. Affliction stated 100k the first PPV, which did around 100k.
Golden Boy is getting 20% of the $45…
Affliction’s REVENUE is about $11 per.
I’m sure people are getting a piece of PPV total. However, you and Micheal Rome are lowering Affliction’s piece day by day and have yet to state how you know any of this.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Meltzer also reported his early estimates are way lower than Schaefer is saying.
We know that Goldenboy is getting 20, Dana is aware of the deal and Affliction has not denied it at all. The only question is whether the 20 is of Affliction’s cut, or if it’s 20% of the 45 and then eats into Affliction’s cut. I hope it’s the former.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and I should say I’m willing to buy the show doing 150-200. If 93 can do 320, why not? It’s still disastrous based on their model. You don’t get showtime and goldenboy for free.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Disastrous is the 55k in buys Pride recorded. 150-200k is below par but it still leaves the promotion on the fence.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
success has to be measured in amount in v. amount out doesnt it? If strikeforce runs a show with a 1 million payroll and gets 100k, and Affliction spends 5 million to get 150k, isn’t it obvious that strikeforce is the more successful show?
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
why? Afflictions costs were 3 times higher than prides…
Even if you believe attencio where buys were around 155k that’s only in line with pride’s cost to return ratio or worse.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There is one difference. A promotional company has a chance of cutting cost while keeping customers. Chances of gaining more customers while cutting costs is much more difficult which was the scenario Pride was in.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It only means the math in the industry changed…
whereas before a non-ufc promotion can do 50k now they can do 100k… only the cost of doing a show also went up from back then.
And the cost will continue to go up as the non-ufc promotion ppv draw goes up.
NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Day a non-UFC MMA show can do 250k buys… those are the days Zuffa’s current payroll will more than double.
No matter where the industry is… second place will never be profitable if you’re going up against Zuffa.
When pride did 50k the market space was such that UFC ppv averages were pretty low.
The Last 4 UFC ppv’s have spiked meaning the buyers in the market has increased so now you have an environment where non-ufc mma shows can possibly do 100k buys.
The problem is “inflation” (fighter pay) is controlled by Zuffa… so having a dollar today is not the same as having a dollar twenty years ago.
by mmalogic on Feb 6, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Could you pass along a link to Meltzer report. I haven’t seen anything from him regarding DOR. I know he has a private newsletter but any good tibit usually spreads around like wildfire.
The only quotes I’ve seen on buys are Iole column, Schaefer and the guy from MMAPayout (which accounts for nothing)
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s in the private newsletter. He said some independent early estimates are in the 100-110 range.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Independent estimates have ranged from 80,000 to 120,000, which, to me, is still really good for a group with no television if they didn’t have their salary structure so out of whack.”
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they should hire that guy. He seems know more about the business of PPV than anyone.
by bignerd on Feb 6, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone should. He does give all of them suggestions and stuff. I’m pretty sure he came up with the idea for tito-shamrock on TUF which was genius…but he gives ideas to all the promotions i think. They just usually choose not to follow it.
by Michael Rome on Feb 6, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shill = source thats how
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 6, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is impressive to see respectable numbers from DOR. I guess some people had low expectations of the PPV and it appears to surpassed most people lackluster expectations. In the end it is in the best interest for MMA that Affliction does well. UFC shouldn’t be the only major organization on the block in my opinion.
by Zocalo on Feb 6, 2009 8:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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