BJ Penn's Lawyer Asks Nevada State Athletic Commission to Investigate Georges St. Pierre's Corner Activity at UFC 94
by Luke Thomas on Feb 4, 2009 5:37 PM EST
in MMA News
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PrintMike Chiappetta at NBC Sports has the details:
BJ Penn has sent a formal request to the Nevada State Athletic Commission, asking them to investigate Georges St. Pierre and the actions of his cornerman during their UFC 94 bout last Saturday night.
The letter was sent by Penn's lawyer Raffi Nahabedian to Nevada state athletic commission executive director Keith Kizer. In the correspondence, which was given by the commission to NBCSports.com, Nahabedian states that the letter is not a formal complaint, but asks the commission to ensure that St. Pierre and his cornermen are "properly dealt with."
...
In Nahabedian's letter to the commission, he wrote, "Simply put, by lubricating GSP's body, a highly slippery surface was created that completely neutralized an innocent participant's abilities and strategy to the advantage of GSP." It goes on to add, "More importantly, by neutralizing Mr. Penn's Brazilian jiu-jitsu abilities through the use of illegal and improper means, Mr. Penn was subjected to a life-threatening and career-ending environment; an environment that the Commission was armed to protect against."
Nahabedian claims that Penn's camp told the commission prior to the bout of the possibility of St. Pierre greasing. During the fight, commission members did towel down St. Pierre, but Penn's letter makes it clear the UFC welterweight champion was still too slippery.
NOTE: This is NOT a formal complaint, only a letter asking the commission to look into matters. Let the games begin.
The only mind-blowing aspect to the story is this response from Executive Director of the NSAC Keith Kizer:
Kizer, however, told NBCSports.com that while the written regulation doesn't outlaw greasing the body, fighters at MMA events are verbally told by both the commission and the promoter that it is not allowed.
Asked whether the rules should be amended to include no greasing the body, Kizer said, "Not necessarily, but it wouldn't hurt. The reason for rules is to give notice as to what's illegal, and they have notice of that."
It wouldn't hurt? Given the volcanic levels of uproar this matter has caused, ironing out the rules to make them clear and then taking more active measures to enforce them seems all but paramount. I certainly respect Kizer and understand he takes his position very seriously, but the necessity of adjusting the legal language is far beyond an idea that "wouldn't hurt".
And as Michael Rome pointed out to me, what are the implications if Jackson were to lose his cornerman license? Far reaching, to put it mildly. In terms of offering cogent advice between rounds his ability is virtually second to none. His fighters would miss him greatly. Granted, the majority of the attention is on Phil Nurse, but one must consider all possibilities at this stage.
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lazy
i see this where i work… why is it so difficult to get on your computer and rewrite the rules a little bit? i know, inkow, there is a little more to it then that but, seriously this is just laziness.
I certainly respect Kizer and understand he takes his position very seriously, but the necessity of adjusting the legal language is far beyond an idea that “couldn’t hurt”.
I think they want to avoid making the legal language be the absolute and looked upon as it is gospel. But I think that is a bad approch. Rules should be stated and documented so they can be enforced uniformly. I get not wanting to expand because it and create loopholes and make MMA a two round fight, one in the cage and the other in the court room. But what he is doing is making himself, the commision, and to some degree the ref: Rule Gods. They can pretty much say anything to the fighters and corners and it goes as long as the general rule outline mentions something close to it.
Why be upset at Kizer or BJ or the other fighters that have said the same thing?
I will state again that the overwhelming consensus of the fighters and the fans would agree that any lubricants applied to the body are illegal.
It is also told, as we learn in the story, before every fight that it is not allowed.
Are there actually people who want to make the argument that GSP and his camp were using a loophole they thought they saw in the rules so that they could get an “edge”?
No loophole. Just intent. You need to prove intent to cheat, which is what you require when convicting someone of conspiracy to cheat, etc. This is why the commission can’t do anything about it anyway. They can’t prove intent. I believe Rome has tirelessly commented on this point.
But yes, in the future, if some fighter or cornermen were to take advantage of the loophole as it currently exists, they probably could. However, I doubt you’ll see that, especially after this hoopla.
Kizer is coming off really lame here. It’s as if he just couldn’t be bothered to even try.
Rome may have some point if we were discussing the American jurisprudence system, the NSAC has its own rules and regulations.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 4, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, and as you’ve missed over and over again, Kizer has said there’s no claim against GSP because there’s no intent. This is kind of basic agency—if your agent breaks the law, you can only be held responsible if there’s proof you had intent to break it.
All of their regulations are out in the open and easy to read. None of them support your position. This is why there’s no formal complaint, and why Kizer has said he’s not going to do anything to GSP.
You're overplaying the legal argument
Since you’ve already tapped out I’m not going to draw you into a legal argument here.
All I want to say is this: Duald is arguing a valid point. You’re not dealing with law (and even if you were, depending on the circumstances you would both have very valid arguments).
This situation screams that it should be based on the action of breaking the rule, and should not hinge on intent. Similar to having steroids in your body. Another example would be (don’t quote me on this one because I’m not bothered to look up the Formula 1 rulebook) in Formula 1, your car has to be over a certain weight. Regardless if you intentionally made it lighter or not if it’s under that weight it’s illegal. Now for F1 this is usually checked before the race.
In this situation – it does seem that Kizer and the NSAC are where the buck stops. If they decide that intent is required than so be it. I would strongly recommend to them a change in the rule books to outlaw any use of vaseline on a fighter’s body.
I am not predicting the outcome of the investigation, you have been making arguments based on State and Federal law. The workings of the Athletic Commission are separate and apart from them.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 4, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with you that this should not be about intent
Kizer has said there’s no claim against GSP because there’s no intent.
Unfortunately – if Rome is right about the above than it is about intent. Which is stupid.
Actually though – I (and HighRoller seems to agree) have a slight suspicion that Greg Jackson knows exactly what was going on.
The lazy cogs of justice will turn, and at the end we’ll have refined rules regarding Vaseline and a chastised cornerman that made a mistake.
I am just eight different kinds of done with this subject. Thankfully there are (free) fights this weekend.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 4, 2009 6:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’ve really avoided commenting much on this. My opinion is really no more important or valid than any other person’s. I do believe the ambiguity that exists in the current language adds to the contentious nature of the debate, and should be fixed immediately. Both sides can be simultaneously wrong and right at the same time. My hope is that the NSAC does a quick but thorough investigation, and emerges with the will to make the rules regarding vaseline as fair and as clear as possible. I don’t see this debate going anywhere until some kind of objective analysis is performed by the NSAC.
by Cannon Jacques on Feb 4, 2009 6:11 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
In this situation it has nothing to with us. It’s all down to the NSAC.
Maybe BE could send them copies of the comments columns so they can get all sides of the debate :P
GSP says will fight BJ with rash guards
http://www.sherdog.com/radio/Beatdown-GSP-and-Thales-Leites-907
There ya go B.J. since your gonna bitch take him up on his offer. Oh wait he’d still fuck you up…probably worse so you’ll never do it.
I have never heard GSP so fired up!!! The problem I have with BJ is that he just wants to fight, and he is great at it, but he doesn’t want to put in the hard work that the elite fighters are putting in now. He can never expect to beat a guy like GSP on pure talent alone, GSP trains like an animal and fights with a great gameplan, not to mention he has just as much talent as BJ as well. You couple all of that with the passion he has now to rematch BJ and kick his ass, if I were BJ, I would get my ass back in training, train hard, forget all about GSP and focus on how to beat KenFlo, and quite possible a matchup against Diego Sanchez. BJ can still go out as one of the best when he’s done, but if he gets too obsessed with GSP like he already shown he is, then he will be most remembered for talking the most shit I have ever heard anyone talk, and getting his ass absolutely murdered, and subsequently quitting!
Finally a REAL lawyer gets involved... What a strong and appropriate statement by BJ's Lawyer
The law apparently states that the legality of the specific rule is left up to the commission. The commissioner has said that he told both camps that greasing the body is illegal. GSP greased his body any way — is there something I’m missing?
Furthermore, BJ’s lawyer made the claim that BJ’s life was threatened as a result of the infraction. This is exactly the kind of shit that will lead to change in the UFC — I’m happy, for now.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
I'm not a lawyer, but...
Part of getting sanctioned, is that you have to abide by certain rules. One of the rules is that you have to know how to fight, and have a documentable track record of fights and/or training. This falls under the broader category of being able to ‘protect yourself at all times’. You can’t protect yourself if the other person is cheating and therefore nullifying your abilities to defend yourself. This ties into something greater, that being the broader legal jurisdictions like the state or federal government. Why doesn’t the FBI break down the door and arrest everyone involved — because this is a sport in which the participants have been properly trained as to avoid serious injury. If it stops being a sport where the avoidance of injury is attainable through knowledge and training — the federal or state governments will surely shut it down.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
by mma_dude on Feb 4, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sorry to break it to you
the only rules that matter are the ones on paper. Otherwise its just a recommendation
Gimme 1 Round!
No...
if it comes from the mouth of the governing body as a rule…it carries just as much weight.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 5, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
GSP’s technique made infinitely more difference to negating BJ’s bjj than any miniscule amount of Vaseline. Thus GSP is already making it a life threatening environment.
I think there is something you are missing. The problem is that this pretty clearly shows why sanctions and discipline shouldn’t be based on what is “told” to the corners outside of the written rules. We don’t know exactly what was “told” or what the language was or anything else. That’s why intent may still be a really big deal.
Look at it like this: Let’s say the NSAC told both corners before the fight, “You can’t grease the body.” That’s the terminology that seems so popular on this subject, so let’s assume that’s what the NSAC used. What is “greasing” the body? Does it mean “any” amount accidentally being applied to the body, even if wiped off? Does it mean intentionally applying it to the body the same way as the face? Who knows? The result is that, if that’s what was told to the corners, the question of intent probably becomes a pretty big deal. Then add in Kizer’s comments referenced by Rome that there does not appear to have been intent, and the end result might be, again, that there was not a violation of the rule. There might be a huge debate about what was said and what was heard and what was intended. Even if this isn’t strictly state or federal “law,” the NSAC is a state agency and its actions still have to comply with basic requirements of notice and process, and the entire matter can still very much end up in court.
The problem with any agency changing the rules orally, and not in writing, is that it opens up such a huge can of worms about what was said, what was heard, what was meant, what was intended, etc., etc., etc. Change the written rule and make it clear. That shouldn’t be that hard.
I just watched
this fight twice over from my HD DVR. I studied GSPs back, shoulders, everything from the very beginning when he took off his Gi and shirt. I watched BJs reactions and his highgaurd attempts in each round. Without getting all into detail I can say (from what I just saw) that GSPs back was *soaked with sweat at the end of rd 1. So in between rds Nurse then applies a small amount of vaseline to GSPs face, then he rubs *the front of GSP’s shoulders, does something (pushing) to his chest followed by 3-4 circular rubs in a centralized part of GSPs upper back.
Start of Rd2
GSPs entire back looks just as sweaty as it did at the end of rd 1. Bj does 2-3 reajustments of his legs while on the ground. I guess you could call those high gaurd attempts but they do look a little unconvincing to say hes really trying for highgaurd badly. GSP is pummeling him. End rd 2, Jackson is in front of GSP this time. Camera doesnt show vaseline being added at all. NSAC guy starts to wipe GSPs back as the camera cuts away to BJ who is standing there with all eyes on GSP waiting for about 15-17 seconds either because they are still wiping GSP down or Herb Dean is just delaying for shits n giggles.
Start Rd 3, GSPs back is pretty dry here as you can see they did in fact dry him off. 1 minute later GSPs back is soaked again. Pretty easy to see too. BJ does some high gaurd attempts or just leg readjustments and is succesful on one and isnt on another. GSP is pummeling BJ. End Rd 3, GSPs whole body is soaked. No vaseline (from the footage shown) is applied during this break either. Once again a NSAC guy wipes GSP down as the camera pulls away to a BJ looking on again. Maybe they are wiping him down again off camera? Possibly.
Start Rd 4, rinse repeat. GSPs back looks very dry again but is covered in sweat moments later. I dont know if its that GSP might be a heavy sweater or who knows. I myself am not a heavy sweater but some of my buddies are. One sweats like a river is coming from his pitts and another always soaks his shirt.
I dunno I still believe there was absolutely NO INTENT TO CHEAT on GSP’s part. Just my 02. The only guy to ever *really complain and make a big deal about GSP “greasing” has been Mayhem Miller. Who knows why he didn’t file a complaint. Chuck flipping out is another thing, maybe he was rooting for BJ he’s also a fan here ya know. Maybe he doesn’t like GSP because hes buddy buddy with the guy who KTFO of him. This whole thing is crazy. Kizer saying nothing will probably be done doesn’t sit well with me either.
*sigh
Who knows why he didn’t file a complaint.
After all this you wonder why someone would file a complaint?
Here, with video evidence, along with eyewitness testimony of the head of the UFC and the NSAC along with millions of viewers, BJ’s camp brings it up and the hammer comes down on him, his camp, and anyone who dares say that greasing is wrong.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 4, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
Innocent until proven guilty, and an amount of vaseline that isn’t visible from the “video evidence” is hardly enough to condemn anyone of greasing.
Despite all of the pieces of this “puzzle” theres nothing, nothing at all. The NSAC has more tape than you have seen and haven’t pulled the trigger.
Do you think you know something the guys with more evidence than you have don’t know?
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Hey
dualduagnosis, dude…
Why don’t you drive up to GSPs crib, trap him, torture him and hold him hostage until he tells you what you want to hear. I think thats the only way you will be satisfied. Seriously man, “and I’m not joking about this.”
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 4, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
I could care less about GSP’s intent. A fighter entered the round after getting an application of Vaseline to his upper body. That’s against the rules and is an unfair advantage.
Does it matter in any way what the intention of the fighter is if you’re the opponent facing this?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 4, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
Unnecessary
Duald obviouslyu has BJ Penn’s back. But he’s got some valid points. In most sports, I don’t think they would care about the intention. If you’re cheating you’re cheating. Full stop.
This is not criminality we’re talking about here. It’s about fairplay.
:D
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 5, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Showing up without sufficient cardio conditioning, and solid gameplan is life threatening. I read earlier their gameplan was to work from his back. Why was he trying so hard to avoid a takedown in the first round then? Demian Maia’s gameplan tries to get fighters to the ground as early as possible and submit them. I didn’t see BJ doing that. Isn’t he supposed to have the best boxing in the UFC? Isn’t his superior boxing skills what helped make it a close match in their first fight? Why abandon it? The fact is, he got gassed by the end of the first round defending takedowns and carrying GSP’s weight. After that, it didn’t seem like he had the strength or energy to maintain a high guard- vaseline or not.
Posturing
The NSCA saw GSPs corners actions first-hand. Keith Kizer was right there and was well aware of what was going on. He acted accordingly.
I don’t know how complaining after the fact changes anything.
They’re essentially asking Kizer to re-imagine the reality he witnessed.
Also, Greg Jackson hasn’t been involved with GSP for that long. Some of these fighters claiming he’s greasey, their fights with GSP pre-date Jackson’s involvement.
Either
A) he’s been greasing all along with variety of cornermen and presumably asking each of them to grease him.
B) He sweats a lot and people like to make excuses.
I play basketball against some guys who are very slippery. Some are more slippery than others.
Keep the lube on the nightstand
If you want Dana White to do something about greasy fighters having an unfair advantage over submission fighters, please support my Facebook Group. Thanks
“Lubricants in the sack, not in the octagon! GSP vs BJ Penn”
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=51464576684
Don’t think GSP has a greasy back?
In your GIF you linked it looks like BJ barely gets his left leg on to GSP’s shoulder, and dosen’t even reach the other shoulder. GSP is already a step ahead of BJ, taking his right hand to wrap around BJ’s neck, breaking the minor grip BJ’s calf would be getting on GSP’s shoulder.
Now, if you were ignorant to the way all of this would work, I can see how you could claim he was “slippery”…but to me, it looked like a desperate BJ throwing up a half ass attempt at a high gaurd.
When will it end…
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
Sweat makes you pretty slippery. I’ve had people in wrestling matches who were slippery as hell, but I’m sure they weren’t greasing they were just really sweaty and hairless. That video does nothing to convince me he was greasy. How many times have you seen a BJJ guy not able to submit because of sweat? A lot. Or is every time a guy cant submit because the opponent is lubed up? I know BJ going for high guard and losing a sub are different but BJ’s attempts looked lazy and that is why he couldn’t get it.
By the way I am at work typing this, so if it is an unorganized mess of shit I’m sorry.
Well said, some people sweat…and some people SWEAT. I mean, standing outside doing nothing special, with a soaked shirt kind of sweat.
I don’t know what GSP is, but this is highly possible that he might have just been sweaty.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, using that as an excuse for GSP is kinda lame, but hell, it is a very realistic possibility.
I have a friend who wants to get into MMA who is like that, and I told him he’d be hard to sub because as soon as the wrestling took place to take the fight to the mat, he’d never get subbed because he’d have already worked up a sweat. lol
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
Some people sweat more than others, it’s a scientific fact, it has to do with sweat glands. People are born with between 2-4 million sweat glands, mixed with yellow and black glands. It is possible since everyone is accusing GSP now of feeling a bit more greasy that he just sweats more than most, it’s part of his genetics. In fact while watching UFC Primetime, when Rashad Evans came to train with GSP, notice how much he was sweating in that episode from that sparring session. Im just saying, it’s possible he is a huge sweater, especially since before this BJ incident, no one has any visual proof of GSP using the vaseline during fights. IMO, it was a simple mistake, it didn’t affect this fight, GSP has already said he’d fight again if that’s what BJ wants, so I HIGHLY DOUBT he INTENTIONALLY cheated. Don’t kill GSP over a very very very dumb mistake buy a credible muay thai trainer in Phil Nurse.
by AK15 on Feb 4, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
YES
Thank you! Exactly the point I was trying to make and thats what I was looking for throughout the fight as I rewatched it over and over. GSP sweats a lot. Hell, I still have Primetime recorded and you’re right, GSP is soaked, no joke.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 4, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
“t didn’t affect this fight, GSP has already said he’d fight again if that’s what BJ wants, so I HIGHLY DOUBT he INTENTIONALLY cheated.”
So if you cheat, it doesn’t matter unless you intentionally cheat?
Of course there is a difference between cheating and intentionally cheating. I am debating on this side of the issue, and to respect you and your opinion I will first say I do not know if you are questioning GSP’s character, but many people here are, and this is what I am debating. When someone intentionally puts vaseline on themselves that is cheating, when somone applies vaseline on you without you being aware, for the fighter, in this case GSP, that is not intent to cheat. Is it an unfair advantage, of course it is, even though it seems to be a small amount and wiped away for two rounds, it’s still unfair to BJ, but it’s not GSP’s fault. DO NOT question his character as a fighter. I am a former collegiate wrestler and I had a teammate that had a family friend as his personal trainer. He trusted this guy. His trainer would always give him shakes after workouts. In a professional competition he entered, his trainer put banned substances in his shake which the trainer did not know was a banned substance. My teammate was tested before the fight, failed his test and was DQ’d. Do you think my teammate intentionally cheated, do you think his charachter should be questioned? That is the point I am debating. GSP is a class act who trains hard and respects the sport of MMA, I don’t think it’s fair for GSP to get a bad name from all this!!!
I sweat like crazy just doing warm-ups before jiu jitsu, and while sparring I POUR sweat on my opponent (they hate when I’m in cross-body/mount, and it’s embarassing for me too). Sometimes my pulse isn’t even elevated. As soon as I start moving aroud, the faucet comes on.
It does happen.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
GSP and his corner should be charged with attempted murder, after they are all banned for life from competiting and or cornering any combat sport….
If we lived in a country where GSP could get charged with attempted murder with the insignificant amount of evidence…I’d move to Ethiopia.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Let me get this straight...
BJ states that he has no game plan or strategey. He is just going to go in there and beat GSP.
Then his corener comes out and states that there game plan was to be on his back.
Yet in the 1st round, BJ fought hard to avoid the take down. Which goes against what his corner states. Would not this be the best case to work off his back. No, sweat, grease to get in the way of his submissions? GSP won, and I’m glad becasue I want to see him and Alves then the Spider. However Nurse and Jackson need to fined and suspended from cornering for some time (6 months – 1 year) for there recklessness.
Ultimately I believe the Vaseline should be eliminated from the cage/ring. If it didn’t get rubbed on in the corner than sureley it would transfer to/from each fighter during the fight.
Vaseline is key to minimizing fights ended by cuts, but hopefully now those working for the athletic commission will keep an eye on things and corners will be very careful.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 4, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
BJ PENN made a bold move...
….he’s not even going to act like he needs to file the protest. He’s writing asking for GSP to be punished.
It would be like saying “hey judge, we know OJ did it, so let’s just skip this mess and sentence him now”
you get the idea...
…he’s just going right for the “we know he did, why complain about it”.
It’s no even clear that gsp crossed a line. The rules plainly say that a fighter can put some, but not “excessive” grease on his body. Yes, Las Vegas officials tell fighters not to grease. But that means nothing if it is contrary to the rules.
The bottom line is that Penn is being a bitch. Penn has never gotten a sub from his back in his whole career.
Penn needs to do some soul searching as to why the fight with GSP was not even competitive.
When it comes to lubricants applied to the body- excessive=any, that’s why the officials remind the fighters and the corners.
Dana said using grease or Vaseline on the body is completely illegal, Keith Kizer said it was “obviously illegal”.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 5, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Within the first 10 seconds of the fight, BJ Penn’s vaselined face rubs against GSP’s shoulders exactly in the place where the various gifs show his weak attempts at high/rubber guard “slipping” down. If there was grease on GSP’s shoulder areas, it happenned right away from Penn’s face.
None of this is relevant to this fight, as a complaint hasn’t been filed, there is no movement to declare the fight a NC, there is no movement to punish GSP, and there was no violation of the written rule or intent to violate any rules.
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