Franklin McNeil: Weight Not the Reason St. Pierre Won

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 4:41 PM EST in News Comment 36 comments

090201_gsp_gnp2 I don't know Franklin McNeil and I am certain he's a dedicated employee as well as being a very nice guy, but this is hard to square with reality:

This was a mismatch in every sense of the word. Penn (13-5-1) wasn't fast enough or strong enough. He wasn't better standing up or on the ground. And size -- St. Pierre admits entering the cage weighing no less than 185 pounds -- wasn't the cause of this wipeout.

"The first fight showed that size wasn't the difference," UFC president Dana White said. "I'm not going to use size as anything, Georges beat him tonight. Period; bottom line."

Truer words could not have been spoken. To say St. Pierre was victorious because he was physically larger would taint his accomplishment and do him a major disservice.

No one in their right mind is suggesting it was strictly St. Pierre's weight that made the difference in his rematch with Penn, but to disregard it as insignificant or irrelevant is equally problematic.

First, weight is almost always an issue though obviously to varying degrees. In fact, because weight is such an important factor the UFC instituted meaningful weight classes. The chief motivation behind dividing the fighting world was to make sure an important trait was controlled for (to the extent possible) given what the MMA community had witnessed in contests leading up to the changes.

Second, there is little doubting that St. Pierre won on far more than the difference in what he weighed the day of the fight. His skills were ultimately what carried the day. But part of those skills are making your opposition carry your way. In side control, for example, working the proper three-point pressure technique allows you place the pivot point of your weight on your opponent (and there are similar ways to employ such a tactic standing or in the clinch). In fact, St. Pierre openly stated making BJ carry his weight as much as possible was a goal of his. Obviously an opponent of equal size can attempt the same tactic, but the effort works especially well and is particularly smart when you have an opponent 20 lbs lighter than you.

And as Jake Rossen points out, it wasn't just the weight difference that must address but what constitutes the difference:

St. Pierre isn’t just any 170 bruiser -- he’s the 170-pound bruiser. Men who cut down from 190 pounds need to pack a lunch when scheduling up with him. Penn, despite a conditioning program much improved from his earlier days of stuttered training, was still a soft-looking 168 pounds. In the end, there was probably a 30-pound difference in lean, functional body mass between the two.

(Homework assignment: Go to the butcher and ask him to put 30 pounds of beef on the scale. Or just take my word for it: it’s a lot.)

That mass wasn’t simply there for show. While perhaps not Penn’s equal in technical ability, St. Pierre is a stunningly adept athlete with a deep bag of tricks. He didn’t simply bully Penn. He used his size to execute technique that would’ve given his opponent trouble even if he hadn’t weighed 185 pounds on fight night: persistent takedown attempts, guard passing, brutal strikes from above.

Penn came close to beating St. Pierre in their first encounter because Penn had far better technical ability on the feet, on the floor and more in-cage experience. Penn still lost, but that enabled him to make up part of the difference in weight. This time, however, both fighters were of considerable skill (perhaps GSP slightly more so), but GSP was able to functionally - and that's key - use his weight within his gameplan to thwart the attacks of Penn.

It's not as if weight is some sort of static entity that we account for only out of necessity. In the right hands, it's a weapon. It can help with pressure on top, guard passing, off-balancing collar ties in the clinch, gripping, base and so much more. On Saturday night, it was one of St. Pierre's best used assets.

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I just realized what an epic fight this was

Because we are still discussing and dissecting it for what seems further out then many previous cards.

by Reciprocity on Feb 3, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

it was clrearly vaseline

Just kidding… please don’t turn this into a vaseline thread :)

by adamdd on Feb 3, 2009 4:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Weight DID have very little to do with it..

Would it have made a difference if Penn weighed 15 pounds more, if he fought the same way that he did?

by JCS_FM on Feb 3, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

That’s hardly functional weight. Come on.

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hence the languid performance Penn turned in against Machida.

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't say that it was meaningless..

I just said that it had very little to do with it. If Penn puts more lean mass on, it likely hurts some of the advantages a “lighter” fighter should have.. speed, agility, etc. Also, what happens to his flexibility?

by JCS_FM on Feb 3, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You’re focusing on what Penn can and can’t do with his own weight to manipulate the situation. The answer is some, but not much in terms of functional improvement when fighting the king of the welterweight. The question is whether the weight disparity at fight time in terms of how St. Pierre used it made a difference. I think that answer is unequivocally yes.

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe using the word 'size'

would help clarify things for some readers?

Weight is just that..basically total body mass. Size indicates frame, and frame is the most important physical characteristic in MMA. Just look at Lesnar, Anderson and even younger guys like Rumble and Bones. Their specific body types are the biggest reasons they are able to physically perform the way they do.

Before anyone gets into the $t3r01d5ONE1! drivel on Brock, remember the guy has freakish reach, and it’s basically all in his upper torso’s width. That’s the biggest reason the guy can effectively put on all that muscle mass while maintaining his agility and explosiveness.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 4, 2009 4:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is it 15 pounds of muscle in his legs and core than would allow him to better fight off takedowns and get out from the guard?

Then yes, it would make a difference.

by Day Man on Feb 3, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, it helps. What part of ‘weight classes’ is so hard to understand?

Also, it’s possible Alves cuts more weight than GSP.

by subo on Feb 3, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not just possible, it’s certain. Alves cuts nearly 30 lbs.

by Michael Rome on Feb 3, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

id say jon fitch cuts just as much or more, possible hughes as well.

by bdw on Feb 3, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fitch walks around at 200 and cuts from about 185 to 190. Crazy.

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Alves goes back to almost 200 the time of fight. That is scary.

by iiowyn on Feb 3, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Surprisingly not a single name dropped by McNeil

by DUGASWARRIOR on Feb 3, 2009 4:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Weight made just as much a difference in this fight as it did for the Lesnar/Couture fight.

"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007

by lovingmma25 on Feb 3, 2009 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i think what mcneil is trying to say is that everyone knew about the size difference coming into the fight. everyone knew that gsp was going to be the bigger, stronger fighter, but the people picking penn (including penn himself) to win though he would be the quicker, mentally tougher, better skilled fighter. that obviously wasn’t the case. i think mcneil is saying dont use the size excuse now, after the fact, to anyone who might use this as an excuse for penn losing.

by bdw on Feb 3, 2009 5:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

To make the assumption that weight made no difference is simply silly. It of course wasn’t the deciding factor, but it made a difference…period. The way it made a difference though was how GSP used it so effectively to his advantage. Knowing he was the bigger, stronger man he used the clench to wear down Penn and when he was on top he continually worked Penn’s body and drove down into his midsection to gas him. Weight by a normal fighter makes a small difference, but when you are able to game plan as effectively as GSP did, you can make it a bigger difference.

by Chadsac on Feb 3, 2009 5:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It made a difference everywhere. Even in striking, where GSP killed Penn, it was a function of his weight in other areas of the fight that made it possible.

GSP is just much better at using his weight now.

I think we should also appreciate GSP’s MUCH-improved jits game since their first fight, as well as his improved muay thai.

by Michael Rome on Feb 3, 2009 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think the stylistic keys to this fight were:

1) GSP’s improved jab – even vs. Fitch he could not stop Fitch from advancing at times, I was afraid BJ might stalk him down. But this was stiff and fast. He doubled it up, threw a superman jab too – flustering BJ and allowing him to control the standup.

2) GSP’s improved BJJ – the control he exhibited from top was sensational, and obviously his passing worked as well as could be expected. He was able to hold BJ down as I thought he could – this is the finest ground fighter in MMA – he combines superior takedowns and unmatched TDD with great balance, mat quickness, effective BJJ, and GnP. The more he improves his grappling skills, the more dangerous he becomes because it is essentially lights out for the rest of the round once the fight reaches the ground.

So what happened to BJ’s supposedly devestating jab? Long story short, he fought a fighter that he didn’t have a half foot reach advantage over. The slobbering over BJ’s performance at UFC 84 was incredibly frustrating to me – he imposed himself on a physically outmatched fighter, which is NOT a big deal. It was the equivalent of GSP GnPing Kampmann. At least this myth of BJ being the best boxer in MMA is done as BJ couldn’t get off all fight.

BJ’s boxing style is similar to Rampage’s, both fighters plant themselves squarely in front of their opponent, are somewhat plodding, and use small steps. They both enjoy throwing hooks, though Rampage’s aren’t quite as wide. And finally, both guys are counter-fighters, they don’t kick, they let their opponent get off first, and aim to punish with a powerful counter hook. A list containing Rampage and BJ on it is obviously rather strong, but both guys need to round out their boxing games to be more offensive and in particular -imposing.

by bigweeze on Feb 3, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

His continued activity on the ground and in Penn’s guard was impressive. You could see that it frustrated Penn especially since I’m sure he thought that that was a place where he could have an advantage. I’m a huge Penn fan and have to completely take my hat off to GSP.

by Chadsac on Feb 3, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well all the post fight talk about the vaseline is making up for the viewers not getting the epic battle that was promised – this may have been the UFC’s biggest disappointment.

"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007

by lovingmma25 on Feb 3, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I suppose. What matters most though is delivering an outcome and a clear winner. GSP likely will emerge from this the second biggest star in the UFC, and is well on his way to GOAT status. A lot of good came out of it for them.

by Michael Rome on Feb 3, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I suppose, it’s just that normally I watch the ppv over and over during the week and I haven’t done so yet :-(

"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007

by lovingmma25 on Feb 3, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think my overall view is St. Pierre was the far more skilled fighter, because he was able to masterfully use his weight to his advantage. He used his weight to his advantage to neutralize BJ’s striking, while BJ failed to use his speed advantage to keep a distance and rip GSP up with handspeed. Georges figured out a way to use his size to negate BJ’s skill. BJ would beat most dudes at GSP’s size.

by Michael Rome on Feb 3, 2009 5:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Completely agree. With most guys who are bigger, Penn would beat with pure skill. GSP’s game plan was devised so perfectly that Penn had no answer.

by Chadsac on Feb 3, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well that and GSP’s skill level is just absurd

by Chadsac on Feb 3, 2009 6:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I still say it was conditioning. GSP’s weight didn’t account for Penn’s slow movement and lack of accuracy in the first round. Nor should GSP’s weight or strategy have made such a difference as to have Penn exhausted and sucking wind at 1 minute into the second round. Eventually, definitely. But an in-condition fighter does not hit the wall at 6 minutes, and that’s what BJ did. GSP still probably would have won, but the absurdly poor performance of Penn is not solely because of GSP (his size, skill, strategy or the combination) – an in-condition Penn would have made it much more of a contest. Matt Hughes apparently agrees, having fought both fighters multiple times.

by jeffro231 on Feb 3, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Franklin McNeil may be wrong in proposing that the weight advantage had nothing to do with GSP’s dominance, but I think he is right in attributing the win to GSP’s skills, or by extension GSP’s commitment to developing as a fighter.

I have wondered for a while, why it’s just assumed that every time BJ walks into the cage that he will have the skill advantage – while often appropriate, it seems to extend even to an opponent like GSP. BJ is a spectacular fighter, no doubt, but when fans see that he has untapped potential, they assume BJ is more capable than he is.

Another aspect surrounding the pre-fight hype which is often overemphasized is the idea that great BJJ can and will carry the day even when you’re outmatched. I enjoy Luke’s picks but I have found that even though his analysis is sound, this belief has caused him to take one wrong turn in his mind which leads to him choosing the losing fighter.

Over the past three years since GSP and BJ fought, one fighter has worked like an animal to improve his skills and round out his game, while one fighter has struggled to simply improve his cardio, believing it to be his only weakness. That I give Kenny nearly an even chance of beating Penn in 2009 is ridiculous considering that even proposing that Kenny fight BJ would’ve been absolutely laughable three years ago.

All in all, I would attribute this loss to BJ’s lack of focus and dedication over the past however many years you would like to choose. You can’t buy time, and you need time to learn new skills. BJ hasn’t shown the interest in improving his capacity as a fighter nor maximizing his skills inside of the cage. He relies on his current toolset and simply hopes to have a great performance once he enters. I think it shows once he fights great fighters, as he has lost many winnable fights simply because his gamplan lacks, is non-existent, or is poorly executed. Yes, he steamrolls lesser fighters, but he doesn’t have the nose for the win like Koscheck, Evans, or a Jon Jones have. He doesn’t have a plan of how to get the win, only that he thinks he’s good enough to win. He’s like MMA’s Vince Carter.

by bigweeze on Feb 3, 2009 6:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Why does everyone think it’s either/or with every topic in MMA? I CLEARLY state that of course GSP is the equal to Penn in technial acumen if not more being more technical:

“This time, however, both fighters were of considerable skill (perhaps GSP slightly more so), but GSP was able to functionally – and that’s key – use his weight within his gameplan to thwart the attacks of Penn.”

This is the thesis of the entire post, as it were. Yes, GSP has unreal skills and that’s the real story of the fight. BUT, to dismiss weight as mostly insignificant is foolish and intellectually lazy. One of the first things I appreciated when I begin training was how much weight mattered, both for personal performance and when dealing with others in sparing situations. Moreover, a technician as detailed and thorough as GSP is going to incorporate using weight to his advantage, which he already admitted he did. With a fighter like Penn whose cardio even when good can’t match GSP’s, that had to be a priority: drive into him, pull on him, make him carry your weight, pressure him with balance and weight on top, etc. That wasn’t the most fundamental component to his gameplan, but I can assure you it was articulated and included.

So, guys, come on. I read McNeil’s article. His emphasis of GSP’s skills is well-taken. But to make that point, you don’t have to exclude the weight issue. One does not cancel out the other. They are both relevant. That’s my point and always has been.

by Luke Thomas on Feb 3, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Until the fans are educated, portraying too many variables can be confusing. I suppose you could argue that it is better to write quality material and let the more dedicated fans catch up in their knowledge over time. I don’t read enough of Franklin to know if this is his thought process, but judging from his MMA Live appearances, it would appear not.

Prior to the fight, BJ remarked that GSP lacked skill and simply powered his way out of danger that many other fighters cannot. So clearly, BJ was aware of the strength advantage and what it’s effect would be on the fight. Following the fight, GSP said that during BJ’s pre-fight trash talk, he was in fact projecting his own insecurities onto GSP. I think it was wishful thinking on BJ’s part that St. Pierre WOULDN’T have gained the requisite skill to compete with him on the ground, because great strength + skill dominates skill + moderate strength.

I said in my post above that you have often nearly gotten yourself to choosing the winner of the fight. Your analyses of the variables going into the fight are very complete and accurate, possibly the best I’ve heard and extremely impressive without another person to bounce ideas off of in the booth. Hoping you turn around your rash of bad luck.

I have to say that GSP must be a trainer’s dream. He is mentally capable of learning so much, physically capable of performing it, and humble enough to learn and follow directions. It was surprising how easily GSP was able to implement his gameplan, and how intricate the strategies were that they created to go about taking out Penn brick by brick. Only an extremely capable and clear-thinking fighter is able to seek out and deliver such focused techniques to create a large advantage elsewhere.

The more I think about this fight, the more impressive it becomes. This fight must have been one of the most frustrating and punishing fights for any fighter to be a part of. Hitting a string of red lights in traffic is aggravating enough. Being stymied for 20 minutes must be one of the worst feelings ever after training for months for the fight of your life.

by bigweeze on Feb 3, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

P.U.

I sat next to McNeil at a recent press conference. He smelled like he shit himself. It was unbearable.

It's not enough that I succeed. Everyone else must fail.

by Jesse Holland on Feb 3, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

That’s because everyone is always shitting on him.

by bigweeze on Feb 3, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

McNeil had horrible analysis of the Fedor Arlovski fight with a heap of “Exactly how i expected it to go..” rhetoric and now he’s doing it again with the GSP fight.

He leaves himself so much wriggle room when he picks a winner then jumps up and down about how everything happened exactly as he called it. He is by far the weakest link on MMA Live and I’m sure a lot of what he says is borrowed opinion from people who actually know what they are looking at.

yeah, I’m hating on him pretty hard lately :/

by Benicio on Feb 3, 2009 11:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

No no you all don’t get it. There’s always only one reason any fight is resolved and he’s simply saying that weight wasn’t it, so he’s back to the drawing board to figure out what it is. There has to be one thing. One thing and only one thing. It can’t be a combination of things (weight, speed, agility, striking, range etc). Nope. Just one thing, and even though it’s not weight, it’s something else.

by Dooda on Feb 4, 2009 3:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs