Is There a Place for Compassion in MMA?
Hey everybody. I think there's been a very illuminating discussion of the Josh Koshcheck fight stoppage, both on the pro and against side, and I'm particularly heartened by the polite tenor of the discussion.
In a Fanpost, mma_dude made a point that comes at it from a slightly different angle that got me thinking:
Whether or not the knocked out fighter's opponent is compassionate or blood thirsty, should have no bearing on the referees decision.
What I thought was interesting was the use of the word "compassionate." Which left me wondering: Is there a place for compassion in MMA?
For the purpose of this discussion, I am limited "compassion" sheerly to the decision of whether to pull up when it looks like an opponent has been knocked out.
An example of this compassion can be found in the Pedro Rizzo vs. Roman Zentsoz fight recently replayed on Pride's HDNet show. Rizzo throws his trademark leg kick and Zentsoz uncorks a left hook that sends Rizzo to the mat. Zentsoz approaches, arm cocked, but gives the ref ample time to stop the fight, as it should have been, rather than administering undefended blows to an unconscious opponent.
On the other end of the spectrum is Rampage's recent fight against Wanderlei. After Wandy suffered a brutal knockout, Rampage stood over him and delivered several extremely hard shots to the unconcious Ax Murderer, in what looked more like revenge for two brutal knockouts in the past rather than an attempt to finish the fight (which was clearly over) and get the victory.
Now, it's true that the rules say to keep going until the ref stops the fight, and it's the ref's job, not the fighter's, to assess if an opponent can no longer continue and the fight should be stopped. Certainly, we have seen examples where a fighter held up to his eventual detriment--Herring vs. Nog springs to mind.
For the sake of the argument, let's eliminate cases in which it's unclear whether a fighter is conscious (we would all say the fighter should continue in this instance). What I am interested in are fights in which the opponent is clearly knocked out and the other fighter has the option to sneak in an extra hit or two before the ref has time to stop it.
My question: Does a show of compassion in this instance impact your feelings about a fighter? I can say I honestly have more respect for fighters who stop, or give the ref a chance to intervene while still maintaining position, vs. those that use the opportunity to inflict extra damage on their opponent. I can say I lost a little respect for Rampage, whom I love, and gained respect for Zentsoz, who I otherwise don't know from Adam, based on their responses to this situation.
Yes, the smart thing is to keep pounding the opponent, to never let up, to keep going until the ref pushes you off. But on a humanistic level, the sight of a fighter taking extra shots--especially in cases where there is a history of bad blood--makes me queasy, and gives me a bit of the feeling I had watching the early UFC's, where you didn't know if somebody was going to die because "There are no rules!"
I'm not trying to prescribe how fighters should act, or impose a new rule, or take the stoppage out of the ref's hands, where it belongs. But I think there is honor in pulling up, it's a credit to the sport and reinforces that this isn't a bar fight but rather two men testing their skills against one another, and from a fan's perspective, it increases my appreciation of the fighter, while the opposite diminishes it.
I'm curious how other fans feel, whether I'm alone in this or if it's a real phenomenon that affects a fighter's popularity one way or the other (probably some people would rather see the extra brutality). I thought about posting a poll, but this issue is too complicated and fraught to be reduced to a binary "yes/no" answer.
So ... how do you feel? And if anybody has any good GIFs to post, allowing people to dissect various knockouts as have been done in minute detail with Koshcheck, please post them here.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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The objective is to win the fight, not harm the other fighter.
I think that the optimal and probably the safest emotional state for a fighter is just cold, emotionless efficiency. Do what you have to to do to win. Don’t get so worked up in a bloodlust you try and fight through the ref when he pulls you off a guy you’ve clearly knocked out; don’t get so tied up trying to worry about your opponent that you miss an opportunity. It’s a chess match, not a bar fight or a charity org.
im not impressed with your performance
Agreed
Cold emotionless efficiency is exactly what is required. So the conclusion is no…there is no place for compassion.
It unappetizing to see both a fighter who is eager to hurt an unconscious opponent, and a fan who is excited to see it. This is exactly the kind of shit that the opponents of MMA hone in on. But I think the rules regarding a stoppage should be clarified and/or changed. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the actions of the opponent should determine whether a fight should be stopped. The important thing is the current state of the fighter in question.
I’m surprised about the questioning of the Kos/Thiago and Etim/Cobb stoppages. In both cases, the fighter was unconscious, and the ref stopped it because the fighter seemed unaware of what was going on, and could therefore not defend himself.
Examples of questionable stops that immediately come to my mind are Florian/Lauzon & Riggs/Misuki. These are cases of fighters who were completely aware, were doing the best they could, and just because they were in a bad situation, the fight was stopped — they were defending themselves and not receiving much damage.
There is a certain ambiguity to the rules that should be clarified. But never the less, an ‘unaware’ fighter should be grounds for an immediate stoppage?
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
If it were Diego Sanchez in that position against Josh K....
No one would be talking….EVEN Josh about a pre mature stoppage. Diego would of attacked and got off 4 or 5 hospital visiting shots in the time it took Thiago to SLOWLY take 2 steps and look below at Kos
I think people are making such a big deal out of it because Thiago did not have that “killer” instinct. I really believe that if were someoone like Diego or just about ANY other fighter that would of “pounced” lioke a lion after a meal……Josh woulda got hurt, and made a trip to the hospital.
But SINCE….Thiago did NOTHING after dropping Koscheck……IT gave a well conditoimed fighter that Josh(and MOST UFC fighters are) theew seconds to recover
After thinking about it
I think Thiago must have heard the ref yell “STOP!” or something to that effect. The sound isn’t always great and viewers may not have heard it. The word recover needs to be clearly defined because I seriously doubt that Koscheck’s reaction time was where it needed to be in order to continue. Why risk it?
As a humorous side note: Lions rarely pounce “after” a meal. They usually lie around lethargically after they eat.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
You have to go until the referee stops you, and I almost fault Paulo for not pouncing on Kos and ending any illusion of Kos being able to defend himself intelligently. It’s flat out irresponsible, as a fighter, to let up before being physically restrained or hearing the bell.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 24, 2009 1:41 AM EST reply actions
Thiago is getting shat on because he did not jump onto Kos. A while back Rampage got shat on because he kept unloading on a out-cold Wandy.
Make up your mind, folks.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Feb 24, 2009 3:17 AM EST reply actions
I never gave any sh*t to Rampage
He did what he had to do.
BS
If it was an un-known undercard fighter who did what Rampage did, he’d be out of the UFC. I’m not here to wave any flags or anything, but Rampage clearly ignored the referee who was trying to stop him, and continued a few shots on Wanderlei. Very similar to Babalu, except with punches.

Thanks for the GIF mythbuster
The slow-mo really shows that Rampage took two extra shots while being restrained by the ref. This isn’t all that different from what got Babalu banned from the UFC (holding a choke after the ref stops the fight).
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Feb 24, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is even more reason to bring Big John back!
He would have tackled Rampage & thrown him off of Wand. There is clearly bad blood between these two, but the ref is there to ensure this does not happen.
Thanks for the rec, DUGA!
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy

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