Early Stoppages in MMA -- Has "Intelligent Defense" Gone Too Far?
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 12:04 PM EST
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While Jordan Breen won't come out and condemn the very quick stoppages of the Paulo Thiago/Josh Koscheck and Terry Etim/Brian Cobb bouts, he might as well since he attacks the underlying principle behind the stoppages. Randy Couture's principle of "intelligent defense" which holds that as long as a fighter is making conscious efforts to defend himself the fight should continue. Breen said this principle has led to "the margin between winning and losing in MMA has become hideously deformed":
"Intelligent defense" has spread virally over the MMA landscape in the last four years or so. Unfortunately, like all viruses, it has mutated. Somewhere along the way, "intelligent defense" became disfigured. No longer does it describe a fighter acting in a way to minimize damage and actively compete in prizefight. Now it’s a mandate that a fighter never wobble, fall or roll precariously amidst attack. Falling inelegantly to the canvas and making googly eyes after getting clipped are now legitimate white flags and concessions of defeat. Don't spit venom toward the referees: They're stricken with this mutant strain of intelligent defense syndrome, and a cure is critical.
...
Glibness aside, the ultimate goal of a prizefight is to show who the "better" fighter is. While I don't necessarily think any of UFC 95's bouts would have swung the other way given more latitude, the fact that there is debate over the stoppages means that the results being generated aren't nearly as conclusive as a "fight" or a "sport" ought to be. Consigning referees to Room 101 and returning to the Roman gladiator days would be a little over the top, so there needs to be some kind of comfortable compromise.
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Furthermore, saying, "Let a dazed fighter take two or three more punches to make sure he's out," sounds idiotic and slightly sadistic to boot. However, no one is asking for bouts to resemble Vovchanchyn-Inoue; people want clarity, not carnage. It may sound ridiculous, but a couple of perfunctory hammerfists aren't about to jeopardize any fighter’s health.
This idea isn't from some unattainable officiating utopia. You don't have to look further than UFC 95 to see a picture-perfect paragon of what I'm preaching. Marc Goddard's stoppage of the Evan Dunham-Per Eklund bout was precisely what I'm advocating: a fighter is badly dropped, lands awkwardly but is afforded the opportunity to show he can defend himself, and when subsequent strikes show he cannot, the bout is stopped. A referee need not stand by idly, waiting for the second coming of Sakuraba-Smirnovas, but to be overly officious with so much riding on the line for fighters is unconstructive and unconscionable.
I think Breen is on the right track here. The last thing we want as MMA fans is for the referees to stop focusing on fighter safety, but we also want definitive conclusions to the fights, not quick and unsatisfying stoppages following flash KO's.
A fighter might briefly lose consciousness but be able to regroup in a split-second. There's too much on the line to stop fights every time a fighter is stunned by a blow.
Photo via mmaweekly.com
UPDATE: Josh Gross piles on:
Yes, Koscheck was caught. He was hurt. If this were boxing, he would have received a 10 count. That's all indisputable. However, MMA isn't boxing. Fighters are not defenseless from their back. I've seen that scenario too many times to count, and it's not entirely shocking for the man on the bottom to regain his wits, recover and pull out a win.
This is professional fighting. A referee is in place to protect the health and safety of the sport's athletes, but officials also need to realize that veteran's like Koscheck (12-4) deserve a chance to survive. Rebounding from adversity is perhaps the most exciting aspect of a combat sport that lives and breathes on flashy knockdowns and dynamic exchanges.
It's a tough call. One I've never had to make, nor would want to. Still, hard-nosed veterans like Koscheck should be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Stunned I can probably agree with, but if you go unconscious during the fight, it should be stopped. If Koscheck had gone limp from a choke for that long, no one would have said a damn word about early stoppage.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
he was concious by the time he hit the ground
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, even the ref in the Dos Santos/Struve
fight started to stop the fight when Cigano dropped Struve but when he got there he saw that Struve was “semi” defending himself & gave him that opportunity to do so which I believe is all that any fighter would want. We have all seen fights where a man is dropped & when the other fighter goes in for the kill the downed opponent locks onto him & is able to recover, sometimes even able to come back & win. The Dunham/Eklund fight is a good example of this. I definitely am not advocating unnecessary damage to a fighter who is clearly done, but if the man is awake when he hits the mat it is the other fighters job to finish him.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was conscious because his head hit the floor. Saying he was up and able to fight because he took even more punishment seems against the intentions to me.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What does it matter how he becomes conscious again?
If he is conscious again at all, it is the other fighters job to put him out again. That is the whole point of this sport. These guys train their bodies to be able to recovery quickly & they should be afforded that opportunity. If Koscheck was laying on the ground flat/limp I would agree with you, but seeing him on his elbows looking at Thiago is not being out. If Thiago jumped on him & delivered one or two unanswered blows that would be suffice for a stoppage.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last I heard, winning by knock out is a valid way to win. If a fighter knocks his opponent out, why take away his win?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Winning by KO, yes, winning by temporarily stunning your opponent
unconscious until he hits the mat is not a valid way to win.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Refs first job is to look out for the fighter's safety
As shown with the replays, Josh Koscheck was KNOCKED OUT on his feet, hit the canvas, and quickly recovered. The reason the fight was finished is that any further damage to Koscheck could result in brain damage. The reason why boxers get permanent brain damage is because they receive a flash knockout, get a count/chance to be able to stand up, and subsequently get hit again. It is getting hit after the flash knockout that causes the brain damage. Being knocked out as shown by having one’s eyes roll to the back of their head means that that person’s brain has literally been rocked (brain hitting skull). Further damage after that is what causes the brain damage, and that is what MMA is trying to avoid.
I understand that MMA fans want definitive finishes, but there is obvious information that fans are lacking in understanding the consequences of certain actions like attacking a fighter who has received a flash knockout. For the sake of Koscheck’s health and safety, it was a good call. Now, instead of going to the hospital for a brain scan, he can just go back to the gym and train for his next fight.
by chrisbboy82 on Feb 23, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't mess with brain injuries
This is the beginning of a slippery slope for me. chrisbboy82 makes a great point – Koscheck may complain about the ending, but he was out on his feet.
Unless you’re going to go to a standing 8 count model of boxing, it seems to me the stoppages at UFC 95 were right. Any earlier, and there’s an argument, but I didn’t see a unnecessary stoppage all night.
You don’t mess with a brain injury. And that’s what even a flash knockout is.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Feb 23, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just wish more people realize this
I really do understand where everyone else is coming from. They want to see definitive finishes. They also see the whole warrior’s spirit/heart that makes fighters want to keep fighting. However, MMA/UFC is learning from boxing in that they don’t want to see the Ali’s and have their fighters get permanent brain damage. Fans may feel that Koscheck was screwed over, but not having him have normal health after he is done fighting (both after his fight and in his career in general) is what will really screw Koscheck over in the long run.
by chrisbboy82 on Feb 23, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because if he's not taking damage...
So if i go unconscious for a second, but don’t get hit and then regain myself and i’m back to normal… what difference does it make. I mean that fight got stopped with Kos posturing up reaching to defend the guard pass. If that guy had immediately jumped on him and kos held on, it wouldn’t have gotten stopped.
by adamdd on Feb 23, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You might think you're back to normal
but your not.
by Razreshat on Feb 23, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that NO ONE can definitively say that or not
except the fighter. So, if he is defending he should be allowed to continue.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually..
the fighter is the LAST one to depend on for that judgment. Because he’s gonna tell you he’s fine everytime, even if he has a Grade III concussion and is seeing 3 of everything.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Feb 23, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So what, now the floor shouldn’t have any bearing on the fight? Maybe we should restart fighters whenever they touch the fence, too.
It isn’t relevant why Koscheck woke up. The point is that he did, and Thiago wasn’t wailing on him. If he isn’t getting attacked and he’s awake trying to defend himself, the fight should not be stopped.
Implicit within the intelligent defense concept is a span of time. It doesn’t mean you can’t defend yourself within the next three seconds, it means that because you can’t defend yourself within the next three seconds, you can’t defend for the rest of the fight. In other words, that because the guy is wailing on you for those three seconds, you will continue to get woozier and be unable to ever recover.
As such, there must be one of three conditions for a stoppage:
Defense in the face of attack, but a lack of attempt to escape that attack for a stretch of time that indicates no escape is forthcoming.
Lack of defense in the face of attack.
When no attack is coming, there must be complete and total unawareness for a span of time that indicates that the opponent could readily walk over and wail on him if he so desired.
None of those conditions applied to Koscheck’s stoppage. He was not being attacked, so neither of the first two conditions apply. He was awake and moving to defend before the ref got there, and Thiago was moving to attack but had not yet gotten there, so the third condition did not apply.
It was a bad stoppage.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Koscheck was unconscious. Also known as being knocked out. Knock out is a way to win a fight in MMA. Thus his opponent won.
Also look at the left hook that hits Koscheck with absolutely no reaction whatsoever from him as he is falling to the floor. He didn’t even wince or flinch. There was nobody home to defend the fort.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure somebody has asked you this in another thread but I couldn’t remember coming across it, so I’ll ask it here: what are your thoughts on the Nog/Herring stoppage? I’m not trying to be a dick, I’m actually curious.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see a gif like the one shown recently for Koscheck. I am basing most of my opinion on this one to Koscheck’s complete lack of a reaction to the left hook on the way down and the position of his left leg, which is very similar to Quarry and Farber after they were knocked out.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You make a valid point,
but if we are going to ask refs to judge consciousness & not being able to defend themselves or laying motionless on the mat we are going down a slippery slope. There has to be some uniformity with this. If a fighter is out for a split second & recovers immediately (no matter if it caused by his head bouncing off the mat) he should be allowed to continue. And if his opponent just stands over him that is a bad decision. I think the Hardy/Markham & Dos Santos/Struve stoppages are a good example of allowing a fighter to see if he can recover & then when they are unable to you stop the fight.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html
1. Submission by:
i. Tap Out:When a contestant physically uses his hand to indicate that he or she no longer wishes to continue; or
ii. Verbal tap out:When a contestant verbally announces to the referee that he or she does not wish to continue;
2. Technical knockout by:
i. Referee stops bout;
ii. Ringside physician stops bout; or
iii. When an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is severe enough to terminate a bout;
3. Knockout by failure to rise from the canvas;
4. Decision via score cards:
i. Unanimous: When all three judges score the bout for the same contestant;
ii. Split Decision: When two judges score the bout for one contestant and
one judge scores for the opponent; or
iii. Majority Decision: When two judges score the bout for the same contestant and one judge scores a draw;
5. Draws:
i. Unanimous – When all three judges score the bout a draw; ii. Majority – When two judges score the bout a draw; or
iii. Split – When all three judges score differently and the score total results in a draw;
6. Disqualification:When an injury sustained during competition as a result of an intentional foul is severe enough to terminate the contest;
7. Forfeit:When a contestant fails to begin competition or prematurely ends the contest for reasons other than injury or by indicating a tap out;
8. Technical Draw: When an injury sustained during competition as a result of an intentional foul causes the injured contestant to be unable to continue and the injured contestant is even or behind on the score cards at the time of stoppage;
9. Technical Decision:When the bout is prematurely stopped due to injury and a contestant is leading on the score cards; and
10. No Contest:When a contest is prematurely stopped due to accidental injury and a sufficient number of rounds have not been completed to render a decision via the score cards.
Let me focus on one aspect:
2. Technical knockout by:
i. Referee stops bout;
ii. Ringside physician stops bout; or
iii. When an injury as a result of a legal maneuver is severe enough to terminate a bout;
3. Knockout by failure to rise from the canvas;
Note that nowhere in there does it say knocked out on the way to the ground. If you wake up when you hit the ground, you are not knocked out, according to the unified rules.
So it goes back to the referee deciding what to do. And based on existing standards of defense, the stoppage was early.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I looked that up as well, was trying to rethink my position based on it. I still think if a fighter is visibly unconscious, the fight should be over. The TKO rules support that.
Ironically, if Thiago had backed away it would have likely been a knockout by those rules. Purely opinion on my part of course.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am all for protecting fighters,
but each fighter should know not to stop until the ref stops him unless he sees the guy laying limp on the canvas which Koscheck was not. I believe that Thiago was too busy admiring the fact that he was able to drop Koscheck to realize that he was not out.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Watching it again, he did that after noticing no reaction to his left hook. As soon as he saw Kos looking at him, he moved forward and raised his arm to punch.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So, by Thiago’s own actions, he admits the fight isn’t over as soon as he sees Kos looking at him.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It isn’t his job to determine if the fight is over, it is the job of the ref. Who stopped the fight.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re arguing in circles. It was a good stoppage because the ref decided to stop the fight. That doesn’t work.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point remains the same: “For fighter safety, if someone loses consciousness, the fight should be stopped.”
The rules, which were evolved from boxing rules, are still very vague or dated on many points and I think this is one of them, in my opinion.
I got too caught up in arguing other points.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am taking a break for a bit, getting too heated up. Gonna take the advice of my signature for a bit.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do the TKO rules support that? The TKO rules are based on a referee’s opinion. Thats what we’re arguing right now, what the referee should stop the fight for.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The ref stopped the fight didn’t he?
What I meant was the situation fit the definition of a TKO, not a KO.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we’re arguing that he shouldn’t have.
Your entire argument is that he was knocked out and that knocked out = fight over.
According to the unified rules, Koscheck was not knocked out. Therefore it falls on what should be done in those cases. While you can defend the ref based on what he should have done, you can’t base it on “knocked out therefore fight over” because that isn’t the rule.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your feelings about the fight and the fighters deserving a clearer end to their hard work, but the dangers from boxing are very fucking real and ones that MMA, thankfully, is not trying to imitate.
The refs are there to protect a man who’s brain is rapidly swelling with blood (after being even momentarily concussed) from getting punched some more. They are not in the business of expecting him to have good judgment in the face of adrenaline, ego and a brain that is no longer firing at full capacity.
But then again, I’m a fan of rematches. :)
by asa on Feb 24, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really believe referees are super human beings who can tell the moment a fighter is knocked unconscious?
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. A ref can tell Fedro what to do, anyone who can do that is by definition a superhero.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is called humor, I am getting far too worked up right now, so letting off some stress by making jokes.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Solid point...
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The choke is conclusive and a punch that makes a flash KO and isn’t followed up when the fighter reawakens is not. I don’t know whether the stoppage was bad or not (it certainly was borderline), but this analogy fails to account for the very thing the article is about.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not stunned, not rocked, not even knocked loopy. Koscheck was completely and utterly out, Un-con-scious before the back of his head bounced off the floor. Look at how he reacted to the left hook on the way down.
.
.
.
No reaction whatsoever except to be pushed to the side as he falls limply. Didn’t even twitch from the force of a left hook to the dome.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can say this with slow motion. There is absolutely no way a referee can tell that he was unconscious in real time. He was “out” by a split second. The ref made a mistake in stopping the fight. Period.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We disagree on this point then.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You could tell in real time that he was out by the way he fell. Conscious people tend not to let their head hit the ground like that.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or have the ol’ seizure leg.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Feb 23, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seems to me in the Thiago/Koscheck fight even Thiago knew it was over. If the other fighter even sees that his opponent is in no frame of mind I can’t see how anyone could dispute that it was over prematurely.
I agree that we need a happy medium but thus far we haven’t had a lot of fights (in my mind) that have ended way too early.
The Vera/Werdum is one of the few fights in recent memory for me. I don’t think any of the fights from 95 were stopped to early in my opinion.
by pr0cs on Feb 23, 2009 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
personally I thought the Cobb stoppage
was perfect. But Koscheck was a tad early.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For example the Thales Leites shot that dropped Nate Marquardt wasn’t any more of a KO than the Kos shot.
And Herring vs Nogueira was certainly a more definititive KO — Herring thought it was done for sure.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at how Kos reacts to the left hook on the way down. Nobody was home until the floor banged on the back of his head and said “hey! wake up!”
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You think if a fighter knocks his opponent out, he should win via knock out.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s assume (rightly I think) that referees will always have some level of error in their TKO calls over time. Do we want to shift those errors toward late stoppages or towards early ones?
Lower risk of serious brain injuries trumps higher chance of undisputed finishes, if you ask me. Breen, on the other hand, was pretty cavalier in dismissing the enhanced risk that comes from more more punches to unconscious/semi-conscious fighters.
by boxingstudent on Feb 23, 2009 12:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I certainly don’t want to see a lot of Steve Mazzagati style beatings like he allowed at UFC 92. Rampage vs Silva for example was about 4 punches too many.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point,
reminds of when Big John used to tackle the guy when this sort of thing happened & throw him off.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Long as there are less of Miragliotta’s it is the end of the round and I am gonna body check one fighter across the ring.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But this is truly where the ref protecting a fighter comes into play.
If he deems the fight over or it is the end of the round & one fighter is not stopping it is the refs job to do whatever it takes to get him off. To me, Big John was the best at this & I miss seeing him in there.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just hate the shit Dan was doing to Gono in that fight.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I did not see that one, what happened?
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
this was too much. My original point was about how Big John was the best at stepping in when a fighter was done & getting the other guy before he could inflict damage on him.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big John was one hell of a ref.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That he was.
Nowadays we either have guys standing fighters up after being on the ground for two seconds or guys that never stand fighters up. It is frustrating & I do see your points on this subject. I just believe that we have to have something more definitive when talking about ending a fight. In my opinion, if a fighter is able to regain consciousness a split second after losing it, he has the right to continue. I have seen several fights where a fighter goes out & is able to tie up the other fighter until he recovers & then is able to come back & win. These guys train their bodies/cardio for specifically this reason. To be able recover quickly.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s because Big John doesn’t change his stance and follows the correct way referees should work. He basically advocates the true way a referee should act in any situation, and we’re lucky that his head is that level on the subjects. I swear, the guy should be appointed to some sort of body that oversees all commissioned referees.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Standardized ref training really needs to be implemented.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree somewhat,
but if the fighter who went out & was dropped is sitting up on his elbows on the ground the other fighter has to jump on him to finish instead of standing there gloating that he was able to drop him. Just like Hardy did to Markham. That hook to Markham’s temple dropped him lack a bag of rocks, but he immediately went in for the finish & rightfully so. And when Markham could not respond the ref stepped in.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and that’s one instance of a ref making the right call. but the choice here isn’t between good calls and bad calls, it’s between types of bad calls. i’d rather bad calls err on the side of protecting fighters instead of bad calls erring on the side of decisive endings.
by boxingstudent on Feb 23, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, it is just a really difficult decision to make
& typically someone is going to argue no matter what decision the ref makes.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Referees cant win
Simple as that. Either it’s too late, or too early.
by mythbuster on Feb 23, 2009 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This debate happens once in a while due to one event have potentially early stoppages. It was a tough day to be a ref.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Feb 23, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Koscheck was out. His leg was stiff when he landed and his eyes were up in his head. He already took one extra shot with the left cross after the uppercut KO’d him. Solid ref job.
by RollinOnShabbos on Feb 23, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just hate to see a flash ko when the fighter is conscious when he hits the ground
end a fight. Thiago could have really regretted not finishing him if another ref was calling that fight.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was the left hook that caused the stoppage, Kos made no reaction whatsoever to that, not even a flinch of pain.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But a flash KO should end a fight.
You might not like it, but if the ref knows they guy was KO’d, flash or not, then he should stop the fight.
Sure, guys might get flash KO’d once in a while and recover before the ref knows that happened, but that doesn’t mean it should be the standard…very much the opposite.
by Razreshat on Feb 23, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There has to be something more definitive.
If a fighter is out on the way to the mat & immediately regains consciousness that fight should not be stopped. In this respect boxing has it right. Not a 10 count, but seeing if a fighter is truly done is the only way to go.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A knock out means a fighter doesn’t get up. If a fighter can get up after getting hit, he was not by definition knocked out.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Knocked out means knocked unconscious. Koscheck was knocked unconscious.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly not according to the unified rules of mixed martial arts. I am getting a ton of flak for using the logical definition of knock out rather than the one specified in the rules. I think the rules need to change personally.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unconscious means you don’t get up. Koscheck was stunned.
not conscious; lacking awareness and the capacity for sensory perception as if asleep or dead; “lay unconscious on the floor”So you can tell that Koscheck was unconscious rather than stunned? Was he asleep or dead? Was he laying on the floor? Let’s not pull definition with what we believe it to be but what it really is.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pictures speak louder than words.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You do know that you just proved that he was not unconscious based on the above definition.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
When fighters are stunned and trying to pull guard on the referee’s…they’re ok to continue fighting too right? Just because a guy tries to pull guard doens’t mean he’s ‘ok’. These guys train day in and day out, and a lot of it is instinctive.
http://www.mmaforreal.com
by Kelvin Hunt on Feb 23, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
THIS.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Feb 23, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. I’ve seen my share of great fighters coming back from near losses like that. Hell, all of Nogueira’s fights are like that. The point I’m making is that the referee should give him Kos a chance to defend himself. Are anyone here certain 100% that Kos would not have come back and defeated Paulo Thiago?
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are right,
like how he pulled guard when he saw Thiago over him.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, it looks as if Koscheck was going to try to get up as soon as he hit the floor, saw Thiago moving in, swung his hips up and put his arm up to defend a potential strike.
That is my assessment, and it completely supports intelligent defense to a T.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That gif reminded me of one of Cintrons KOs…
He was out. Anytime you let your head hit the floor flush like that you are in no condition to continue.
by Zocalo on Feb 24, 2009 3:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Completely disagreed...
If Koscheck was knocked unconscious, he wouldn’t has swung his hips or moved his arm to defend. Arlovski vs. Fedor, AA was unconscious. CroCop vs. Gonzaga, CC was unconscious. I don’t understand where the definition of unconscious is confusing at all.
Most of Mike Tyson’s opponents, unconscious.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But...
I’m not arguing he wasn’t out when he got hit. He could have awoken on the ground when he hit the floor, then subsequently went into survival mode. But hey, that’s intelligent defense.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good points, thanks for adding on.
I do not particularly like Koscheck so I really could not care less if his won or lost but this was definitely early.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My stance was that he was unconscious from the uppercut, took the left hook without any reaction, not even a flinch. In my perfect world, the fight would have been instantaneously stopped right there.
The floor woke him back up, but based on how long it took him to protest the stoppage he was still sufficiently out of it to endanger himself.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t unconscious in my estimation but he wasn’t in a no condition to continue. I think there would be a good chance that he would get a hit flush shot while being dazed.
Look at it from a boxing point of view. I think most refs would have called it off with how he landed.
by Zocalo on Feb 24, 2009 3:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t unconscious in my estimation but he wasn’t in *no condition to continue. I think there would be a good chance that he would get flush with a shot while being significantly dazed.
Typo…
by Zocalo on Feb 24, 2009 3:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have a problem with the Thiago/Koscheck stoppage. If you watch the replay, Koscheck had the same look in his eyes that Liddell had when Rampage KO’ed him at UFC 71.
http://www.mmaforreal.com
by Kelvin Hunt on Feb 23, 2009 12:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This isn’t a supporting point at all. The same “look in his eye” constitues the same stoppage? Chuck fell down to the floor face first, then just sat there. Koscheck made an effort.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I will be honest, I like ass beatings too but Lindland lying there made me a nervous wreck. Same with Wandy, our sport is 1 huge injury away from bad press. Think of NY never opening or huge outcry from “concerned” politicians.
If the stoppage is really questionable we have the perfect system : Rematch.
by Riney on Feb 23, 2009 12:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This whole thing gets rectified by the fighters and their camps…
do we see this happening with one of the more seasoned refs? shit even Margliotta is getting better.
After a bad call the Ref’s get there asses handed to them by the fighter their camps, and the fans… a sort of “crude feedback mechanism” which then causes the ref to ponder their decision and improve.
Ref Training should improve but this gets the job done.
by mmalogic on Feb 23, 2009 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
Another whole day of bickering over this problem…
Honestly, I had some intelligent conversations with alot of you regarding this situation. iiowyn made some good points, as did Brent in the other thread regarding UFC 95. But what Breen is saying here is exactly what I was trying to convey, and I’m glad to see I wasn’t alone in my assessment of the stoppage.
I still think Koscheck has a right to be very angry by the stoppage. While yes, I believe he was out as he fell, Koscheck did move his arm to defend and rise his legs in the air to anticipate a guard position. I think those two visible movements should have been put into place.
While many fans say the referee looked into his eyes, it looks like as soon as the uppercut lands, that referee is on a mission to stop the fight regardless of what Josh is even doing.
Furthermore, Breen adds to my other points about fighter safety. Hammerfists or one or two blows isn’t going to crush a fighter’s career. We aren’t talking about guys who are Gary Goodridge and just took too many shots to the head. I think the referee really dropped the ball here, but nothing can be done.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Personally I think as soon as a fighter goes unconscious, the fight should be over. Winning by knock out is one of the main ways to win, and if you knock your opponent out, you should win. Give them a lot more leeway if they are just stunned/rocked/wobbled.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Koscheck did move his arm to defend and rise his legs in the air to anticipate a guard position. I think those two visible movements should have been put into place."
Great points. That was exactly what I was arguing. Those two actions alone should suffice “intelligenty defending.”
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He didn’t move his arms to defend, they were still out to the side, and his left leg was stiff and higher than his right on the ground. Look at Franklin/Quarry and Markham/Farber for similar leg behavior.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was on his elbows with his legs up.
How much more evidence of consciousness is required? I am not arguing that he was not unconscious for a brief period, but he was obviously conscious when he hit the mat
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was conscious after he hit the mat, not when, it was his head whiplashing and bouncing off it that woke him back up again. My belief is that if you lose consciousness, the fight is over. Whether the commissions or refs agree with me is another matter. This time the ref did.
I am for more defined rules btw.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Read michaelthebox’s post about the definition of a knock out. Your definition doesn’t fit.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Read my reply to his post, which I made before you made this post.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your reply fails to respond to the key point. Your argument isn’t covered by the rules.
Its now incumbent on you to explain why it SHOULD be in the rules that the moment a fighter becomes unconscious, the fight is over. You haven’t done that, you’ve simply stuck by two key points:
Its in the rules
And the referee stopped it.
I pointed out that its NOT in the rules. And referees make mistakes all the time, thats why we’re arguing about this.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am stating my opinion, which I learned was not in the rules when I looked them up. It is my opinion completely now, in the interest of fighter safety that if a competitor loses consciousness, for any time, the fight should be stopped due to their inability to defend themselves. Koscheck didn’t even flinch at all from the left hook he took after the uppercut. His body wasn’t even doing the regular automatic reactions to protect it from further harm.
I think that giving an acceptable period of unconsciousness is a point of contention and can lead towards more fighters getting injured and suffering repetitive brain damage.
The rules are still very vague and were adapted from the rules of boxing. I think they should go through a complete design from the beginning to be specific to the issues facing mixed martial arts. This is likely not viable during this infancy of the sport.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Paulo Thiago actually steps back and leaves his arms at his side after the punch because he can see that Kos is done. Anyone arguing this was an early stoppage are insane. It was a flash type KO, but he was def done. Had paulo Thiago jumped down he would have only done unneccessary damage. That’s the whole point isn’t it? Thiago has 10 fights under his belt, I think he knows the look of a downed opponent. If there was any doubt in his mind he could have easily kneeled down and pummeled Kos’s face.
Def a fair stoppage.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 12:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
But it is still his job to continue fighting until the ref stops him.
By the way, I am not sure how many times Thiago has looked down on an opponent after dropping him so I am not sure if he does know that look. He is a BJJ guy.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thiago has 10 fights under his belt, I think he knows the look of a downed opponent.
He had no prior KOs or TKOs via strikes.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok that’s semantics. How about this: He’s an elite cop in Rio De Janeiro. How about I know for a FACT he’s seen a downed man before due to a punch if you know anything about crime in Rio.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If thats what you meant, you should have said it. I’m not a mindreader.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think this is even a fair argument. Basically, you’re saying that since Paulo Thiago stepped back, left his arms at his side after the punch, the fight is over. You didn’t mention a word regarding the referee’s involvement.
So in your eyes, when Cyborg Santos obliterated Baszler, then ran around the cage like she had won already, the fight is over?
It isn’t up to the fighter. It’s up to the referee. The argument involves the referee’s discretion regarding intelligent defense, not what Paulo Thiago constitues as a knockout, end of story.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am happy to have found this site when I did, so far this conversation has been fair and no one is calling each other names or cutting anyone down like on other sites that I’ve been on. But I digress slightly. First in regards to the Kos fight, the ref did make the right call, but it was a little early, If Thiago would have jumped, then the ref should have stepped in. But Thaigo just stood there and did nothing. I agree that refs should always err on the side of caution to the downed fighter. We don’t need any people in mma ending up like Mohamed Ali, pretty much brain dead. As a sport, MMA needs to take care of it’s atheletes as they are the ones putting asses in seats and making people at home buy PPV. Marketing can only do so much, and it’s the fights that keep people interested. Early stoppages are frustrating, but I think some are justified for safety of the fighters. We as fans want decisive finishs, but sometimes the end results would not justify the means.
by proflex on Feb 23, 2009 1:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
welcome to BE
we try to keep things civil, reasonable and fun!
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats good to hear, another site I visit, I won’t mention names, has been pretty much f this, and f you, all because no one agrees on stupid little thugngs. don’t want to beat a dead horse or raise the subject but you should see some of the comments over Vaseline gate there. its like a bunch of 12yr. old kids playing verbal king of the hill. really annoying
by proflex on Feb 23, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yay for the internet =P
I read all those other sites, this is the only one I post on. BE and the community here is awesome.
Group hug!
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this whole “controversy” is thiago’s fault.
If he would have dropped him and immediately pounced instead of acting like the fight was over we wouldn’t even have this conversation
Instead he just stopped… for some reason. maybe the ref yelled something? maybe he saw his eyes roll back and decided to be a nice person?
What is weird is that if a fighter takes extra shots (rampage against wand, evans against lidell) he gets criticized. If he doesn’t attack like thiago… the match gets criticized.
IMO… fighters should fuck the dude up until the ref drags them off.
by dbcb on Feb 23, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can’t see how this is Thiago’s fault. It’s the referee’s job to stop a fight and not the fighter’s. The referee should not allow the fighter to influence how they call a fight.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A fighter might briefly lose consciousness but be able to regroup in a split-second. There's too much on the line to stop fights every time a fighter is stunned by a blow.
I think this sums it up very well.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
What is the difference between “stunned” and “knocked out”? Koscheck was stunned, Cro Cop was knocked out.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stunned fighter still flinch when hit. Stunned fighters don’t fall limply like that.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not conscious; lacking awareness and the capacity for sensory perception as if asleep or dead; "lay unconscious on the floor"
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The English language all in one place. So from the two definitions, “stunned” means momentarily knocked unconscious, and knocked out means totally unconscious.
From the legal definition and the MMA definition, Koscheck’s fight should have never been stopped.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with your cherry picked definitions which promote fighter injury.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How did I cherry picked? I posted two links of ALL the definitions for each.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
iiowyn, that isn’t the argument.
The argument is that once he hit the floor, he swung his hips up and moved his arm to defend the strike. It is obvious that he isn’t just simply flailing his arm to the side like he’s out. He’s obviously moving it up to stop a strike.
Just because he fell limply, that’s exactly what the article is pointing out as being the muddled part of intelligent defense.
Your opinion is that if a fighter goes down limply, he’s done. I get that, but I think people are arguing that he was trying to intelligently defend once down. The debates you’re having with people are on two different but within the same context subjects.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Leleand, haven’t you seen flash KO’s before? When does the ref not step in and stop it? Pretty standard from what I have seen.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Flash KO’s usually result in a guy being unconscious on the floor after he hits it. Koscheck was visibly looking to defend. He was probably heavily dazed, but he should have been given the chance. The problem here is that not all referees are on the same playing field when it comes to intelligent defense.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, I agree it was close, but watching the replays, I can’t say I wouldn’t have done the same thing if I was reffing the fight. He got clipped and crumpled. It looks like a standard KO and yes he starts flailing his arms and legs but he still appears disoriented.
If it wasn’t stopped Thiago prob would have pounced and pummled his face. Why do we need to see that? He got caught.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it wasn’t stopped Thiago prob would have pounced and pummled his face. Why do we need to see that?
Key word: probably. Worst case, Thiago follows him down and wacks him with a couple more weak shots, fight gets stopped.
Alternatively, Koscheck might have grabbed on when Thiago came down and held on well enough to survive.
Remember when Marcus Davis got absolutely clocked by Paul Taylor? Marcus ended up winning that fight.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly what could have happened, and it has happened a lot in MMA. Specifically, a lot of Nogueira’s fights earlier in his career went this way.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And look how Nogueira looks right now. I might get flack for it, but he probably should have had some of his fights stopped so he doesn’t look older than Couture despite being over a decade younger than him.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that’s a completely different subject. Nogueira has taken way too many head blows, and it’s mainly because he would get ground and pounded to hell. He wasn’t knocked out or even dazed beyond belief. He’s just taken way too many blows.
Now recently, yes… like the Herring bout, he was borderline out. But I think they made a good decision on that. Nogueira’s style really hinders his ability to fight much longer. He just takes too many blows because of his style.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How can people punch Big Nog anyway? He is just so huggable.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know...
When Nogueira dolls come out… the U.S. will be taken by storm.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup,
I really did not know anything about Big Nog before TUF, but damnit I love him. He is the perfect combo of a bad man & your favorite uncle.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah buddy!
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't bring fights that happened in Pride
into a conversation concerning protecting fighters. Pride didn’t seem to really care about the health and well being of their fighters.
by Razreshat on Feb 23, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There lies the problem. For instance, the referee in Veach vs. Grice didn’t stop the fight after Veach took a huge blow, then subsequently got HAMMERED out of his mind on the ground. The referee saw him, kept eye contact, and gave him the opportunity to recover. Veach came back, won.
Koscheck wasn’t even given that opportunity even after he made the effort to intelligently defend.
A standard KO isn’t in which a guy is trying to defend once he hits the floor. Where is the definition misunderstood? Knocked out, and above… knocked out unconscious as some people are stating would likely be followed by… nothing. No movement, maybe some twitching, not a guy trying to swing his hips and move his arm to defend.
We need to see that because it would have definitively proved Koscheck ws done. Instead, we have this shitstorm of controversy because Koscheck moved to defend. That’s why. The referee was standing right there, one shot wasn’t going to end Josh’s career.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we need to see that? He got caught.
We need to see that because that is finishing the fight, which is the point of this sport.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kos fans need to be questioning why he couldn’t finish a UFC firsttimer. That’s the major question here. That’s a problem.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
let's not conflate Kos fans
with people who think it was an early stoppage.
Personally I really enjoyed seeing Koscheck get clocked and I still think it was an early stoppage.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 23, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the blanket “well you must be a fan” crap.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was more a general point made to any Kos fans on his inability to fonish an obviously weak fighter (IMO at least). I mean Paulo looked awful.
by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To echo a persons earlier post -
fighters when badly hurt, still attempt to “pull guard” out of instinct. How many times do you see a “conscious” fighter pulling guard or attempting to takedown the referee?
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Feb 23, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with this argument is that just because A happens, you believe A always happens. How do you know B won’t happen? Give the guy a chance to prove himself.
by cyph on Feb 23, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In this case it would have been nice to see it play out definitively, but referees have a very hard job and aren’t going to please everyone.
Obviously I think people wouldn’t be having such a butt-hurt over it if it were the other way around (i.e. Kos knocked him silly and the ref stopped it).
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Feb 23, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously I think people wouldn’t be having such a butt-hurt over it if it were the other way around (i.e. Kos knocked him silly and the ref stopped it).
But thats the way it should be. Koscheck is near the top of the division, close to a title shot; a poor stoppage affects him very, very much.
Thiago was an entrant, a guy who, win or loss, is a long way from the top. A single loss to a top contender has a much smaller affect on his future, therefore a poor stoppage is of less importance.
That doesn’t mean the two stoppages would have been different varieties of poor, just that people rightly recognize the former case is much more worth making a stink about.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree...
You shouldn’t have one rule of stoppages for one fighter and one for another, especially within the same fight. That’s the type of shitty bias in reffing that needs to be avoided.
A bad stoppage is a bad stoppage…I’m more inclined to say it wasn’t a good one, but still justifiable…but the idea that Koscheck should be given more leeway to stopping the fight than his opponent is absolutely wrong.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Feb 23, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say he should be given more leeway. I said that it makes more sense to fight the more important battles.
Both veterans and newcomers should be given leeway. However, its incumbent on us to make a stink when the veterans get fucked, because those are the battles that end up making a difference.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That still doesn't make any sense
and only leads to a veteran bias.
by Razreshat on Feb 24, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m speaking from the standpoint of group psychology, not the rules of the sport.
The Gaijin’s original point was that people wouldn’t be so upset if it was the other way around. But thats a function of individual and group psychology, not of the actual rules and right and wrong.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 24, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think this supports this situation. If he was pulling guard on the referee, OK, but he was easily lined up with Thiago and he was also moving his arm into the air at an angle that was in line with where Thiago’s strike was coming from as he lifted his arm to strike.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was not rolling around on the ground crazily &
grabbing whatever is next to him. He was on his back, pulled his legs up anticipating Thiago was going to come down & punch him.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The sticking point for me was the left hook he took on the way down. He didn’t even flinch or twitch. That to me indicates he was unconscious rather than limp or stunned or just lost his legs.
If a fighter is unconscious, he cannot defend himself at all, and thus the fight should be stopped right at that moment. What happens afterwards shouldn’t matter because the fight is over. That is my stance on the subject.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I realize that & he was out
but only for a split second & then was immediately defending. Which by definition is what he needed to do. There is so much on the line & after all this is a sport & we need clear/decisive winners.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly…. whenever a fighter goes limp… it is over in my opinion.
by Zocalo on Feb 24, 2009 3:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get used to this.
If we want to continue to enjoy this sport which we love so much we are going to have to get used to these types of stoppages. Many fans understand that this sport is one more high profile death away from MMA being forced back to the underground. If a fighter is struck with a blow that drops him to the mat with his eyes out of focus and his hands out stretched to his sides and his leg stiff the ref. has a responsibility to stop the fight. Just because a fighter wakes up when his head hits the floor doesn’t mean he regains the reaction time he needs to continue fighting effectively. Why risk it?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Feb 23, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
I don’t think most of the general public will accept fighters taking hits to the head after they’ve already been flattened. My dad happened to be in the room watching the Evans/Griffin fight and he was into it until the replays showing Forrest taking hammer fists while down. They weren’t terrible as far as many MMA fights go, but he was pretty turned off by it.
The still tenuous general acceptance of MMA and the extra risk of injury of a late hits are factors that will, and I think should, influence refs to make these kinds of stoppages.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your concerns & they are valid,
but that is exactly what this sport & boxing are based on. Finishing a fighter if the ref steps in is what this sport is all about. Just like when Maia locks on a sub, everyone knows the guy is not getting out of it but if he does not tap the fight should not be stopped.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If someone goes unconscious from a submission, the fight is stopped.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, when he is limp & unconscious.
That is exactly the point. The fight is not stopped because of the appearance, the ref actually waits until the fighter is out.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look how Koscheck fell from the punch and how he didn’t react at all to the left hook that followed. To me that is limp and unconscious.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said above: if a submission is locked in well enough to put somebody out, for even a millisecond, there already is no possibility of that fighter coming back, let alone continuing the fight. The submission is locked in. A punch, on the other hand, still can allow the fighter to come back. There is a difference in how conclusive each can be.
Successful submission = Always conclusive. Successful punch = Not always conclusive.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing that hasn’t really been brought up: the affect on gameplans these kinds of shitty stoppages will incur.
GSP is one fighter who has largely eschewed exchanging in the standup in favor of ground fighting. If I recall correctly, this is because he believes standup involves a lot of gambling.
What happens when the officiating makes trading blows even more risky?
Over the long term, quality fighters will move more and more towards gameplans involving clinching against the fence and ground control. They will be less inclined to take risks on the ground, because losing position and returning to the feet will involve a lot more risk than before.
Frankly, I don’t want to see that, and I don’t believe anybody else does either.
Giving fighters every opportunity to survive is in the best interest of the sport.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can understand this point as well.
My broader concern is that referees are going to end up like judges. There are specific judges that people cringe when they hear their names, and usually, we don’t do the same thing for referees. Yes, Mazzagati and Yamasaki can get some boos, but for the most part, everyone knows these guys will try to do the right thing.
My problem is that intelligent defense is becoming muddled within the population of referees commissioned to referee these events. Some guys give fighters ample time to recover while others instantly stop fights. It isn’t an even playing field. There needs to be a definition of intelligent defense, and it needs to be engrained in these referees’ minds.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There need to be standardized programs for the training of referees and judges.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... it'd be nice
It would probably cost too much to deploy, and I’m not sure it what manner it would work. The UFC ultimately could have some massive pull with it. Tell commissions to adhere to it or they won’t come to their city, something like that. It’s not like it’s pulling hairs, it’d be for the benefit of the sport by far.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering how the mix
of refs is done. Take this last event, there were several local (UK) refs & some guys we normally see at UFC events. Is this simply agreed on beforehand as to how many local refs they will use?
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I know the UFC was helping get a commission going in the UK, but I don’t know what happened with that. I don’t know how they work that.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it has to wait after the sport is fully sanctioned in the US. Then it might. I know Big John has a school for refs.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(1) You’re assuming this is a “shitty stoppage” and then making your points based on that, and I think there are a number of people who would disagree with that stipulation.
(2) You’re saying that that standing up and exchanging involves “a lot more risk than before” without any real evidence that this is true.
(3) Your conclusion is vague and nobody would disagree that giving fighters the opportunity to survive is in the interest of the sport. But so is making sure that MMA stays sanctioned in the U.S. and making sure people don’t face long term injuries because as a result of hits taken after being knocked out.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(3) Your conclusion is vague and nobody would disagree that giving fighters the opportunity to survive is in the interest of the sport. But so is making sure that MMA stays sanctioned in the U.S. and making sure people don’t face long term injuries because as a result of hits taken after being knocked out.
If taking blows after being knocked out resulted in MMA not being sanctioned in the U.S. or endangering it, MMA would have been de-sanctioned a long time ago. Yes, making sure MMA stays sanctioned is in the interest of the sport, but this would far from stop it.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
God damn blockquote
(3) Your conclusion is vague and nobody would disagree that giving fighters the opportunity to survive is in the interest of the sport. But so is making sure that MMA stays sanctioned in the U.S. and making sure people don’t face long term injuries because as a result of hits taken after being knocked out.
If taking blows after being knocked out resulted in MMA not being sanctioned in the U.S. or endangering it, MMA would have been de-sanctioned a long time ago. Yes, making sure MMA stays sanctioned is in the interest of the sport, but this would far from stop it.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MMA wasn’t sanctioned a short time ago, and one of the key sticking points for a lot of regulators is that you can attack a downed opponent.
There have been a number of recent posts on this site outlining the tenuous position we’re in with regard to officially sanctioned MMA. I’m not saying extra hits alone are going to lead to the sport being banned, but I think the reaction of the general public and regulators is something that has an effect on when a stoppage will occur.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think more serious offenses like Sobral’s purposeful choke and idiots like Wes Sims soccer kicking guys illegally on the floor are going to be sticking points for regulators. Sure, fighter safety is likely the large concern for them, but as MMA moves on and on, the data adds up and it almost always favors MMA as far as fighter safety in comparison to other professional sports like Boxing.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still hate Babalu for that.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re right, that kind of nonsense is much worse than a fight that goes on a few seconds too long because the ref didn’t get in there in time.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But the ref not getting there in time is a matter of training them to
be there in time. Not to be across the ring, but to be in there tight so they can see what is happening.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, hell… the ref getting there in time has proven to be not enough in some cases. Sims was kicking Mir in the face as the ref was trying to move him away. I think that’s even worse because the fighter is blatantly going against the referee.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that shit is unconscionable, I think we can all agree.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked how K-1 handled Badr Hari
Calling him dishonorable in the ring and striping him of the title.
by Razreshat on Feb 24, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1) I called it a shitty stoppage because I think it was, but what matters in terms of gameplans was that it was a questionable stoppage, which is obviously the case or else we wouldn’t be arguing it. If fighters think there is a real chance they won’t get the chance to recover when otherwise they would have been able to, the risk of standing goes up.
2) Basic logic. If the odds of questionable stoppages due to strikes increase, the risks of standing go up. This is because the primary risk of standing, for a superior striker, is “getting caught,” as Kos was. If the risks to getting caught go up, the risks of standing go up.
3) As Leland already pointed out, you’re flat out reaching for this.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The argument about being cautious is intriguing, especially when people were bitching about “sloppy kickboxing” getting FotN and making people abandon their best gameplans to try for the bonus.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’ll notice the main guys who abandon their gameplans are the guys who aren’t favored in the fight anyway. To them, the risks of getting caught are a lot less, because they don’t expect to win anyway.
Its the top-tier fighters I expect to see move away from standup fighting, if the current trend of questionable stoppages.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*questionable stoppages continues
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and for the record, I hate the way the UFC is giving out the fight-of-the-night bonus. Sloppy kickboxing is fucking lame.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That fight sucked big balls.
That seemed like a sparring session as opposed to an actual fight. You could tell all that Stevenson cared about was getting the fans going & trying for FOTN & clearly had no intention of doing what he needed to win that fight.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and I hate, hate, hate that shit. If the UFC keeps giving out bonuses to shitty kickboxing, I’m probably gonna start an active campaign denouncing their stupid practices. The current trend, independent of fight night bonuses, seems to be awesome, quick-paced fights with constant movement on the feet, down to the ground, and back up. Marquardt/Gouveia should have gotten the FOTN last night, and the fact that it didn’t was a travesty.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The little bit of scrambling in the Stevenson/Sanchez fight was really entertaining to me, wish that had happened more.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That part of the fight was nice,
but it was way too small of a part. At one point Stevenson had Diego in a full standing guillotine & let it go. I could not believe it! I saw that & said holy shit, that is it, Diego’s done. He could have locked it on, pulled guard & Diego’s night was over.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree that it’s “basic logic” when you make a point (disputed by a number of people) based on your opinion then use that opinion as evidence to support the larger conclusion.
I suppose it’s simply that we disagree about the stoppage here, and I don’t see a particular trend toward questionable endings. Clearly there are people who feel otherwise, based on these comments and Breen’s article.
I responded to Leland, but you’re both also ignoring my point about the increased danger to a fighter’s health, which I actually think is the more important reason not to get too upset when a ref calls a fight after a guy has been flash KO’ed.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This sport at its very essence is
a danger to fighters health. At any point in the fight doing any number of things a fighter could be seriously injured. They are highly trained athletes that work to be able to recover exactly the way Koscheck did if they do get caught.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who has debated my “basic logic”? All the debate on here has been about the health and “ability to defend” issues, not about the gameplanning issues.
I’m ignoring your point about health because I’m not a doctor, and unless I’m mistaken, neither are you.
I’d like to have doctor input when assessing the risks to followup blows.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 23, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not a doctor, but that does not mean my point is invalid (maybe it does to you, I don’t know).
There is plenty of information out there on concussions, but I think the long term effects of repeated brain trauma still are not crystal clear, particularly because there is so much variation related to when the hits occur, how hard they are, and when the actual brain damage occurs. My understanding is that impacts after an initial brain injury are likely to be more damaging than the initial injury itself.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Increased danger to fighter health ultimately comes down to the quality of refereeing in these situations. I pushed the opinion earlier in the post that if Koscheck was given the chance to defend one or two more strikes, it could have been much different.
Now, I’m not saying fighter health isn’t an issue. It defintely becomes an issue in regards to this type of stoppage because in order to prove my argument, Koscheck may endure another huge blow, but I think one or two blows or even some smaller hammerfists to solidify a bout as a definitive win aren’t going to end a career.
Fighter health becomes a much more bigger concern to me in another completely different argument, fights heading to 5 rounds over 3 rounds. That’s when fighter health hugely concerns me. I think referees can ultimately ensure that fighter safety is number 1, but in this case, I think Koscheck deserved another second or two to ultimately prove he could intelligently defend himself. He was obviously making the movement to do so.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right, even if Thiago was coming down on
Koscheck punching & the ref stopped him I would have been more satisfied in the stoppage. At least at that point we would be able to tell if he was able to defend or was truly still out.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it does come back to the refs, and I understand how people might argue Koscheck was defending himself. The thing is, what the ref saw in real time was the fighter’s body go limp, his head hit the mat, and then a “guy knocked out” head twitch when he looked to be trying to get up. I think that’s when the ref stepped in (and when Thiago decided not to pull the trigger), and based on that I think it’s tough to fault him for that, especially when we get the advantage of looking at it in slow mo.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with one point here. From the replays, that referee was on a straight mission to stop this fight once Koscheck hit the mat. A lot of people are trying to say he watched his eyes, but that guy is barreling full speed to stop it.
Now, should I blame the referee? I think if I was in the same position, it’d be hard not to run in and say it’s over, but that’s what makes great referees. Guys who can distinguish the difference and give opportunities to fighters who are recovering. I think this guy simply ran in too quickly, but he should have ran in to be right in the action to see if Koscheck could defend. Instead, the guy stops it. I won’t unleash the wrath of 1000 suns on him over it, it’s a tough call, but I do think it was premature.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The ref did seem to be pretty far away. I’m going based on the gifs posted, but it looks like he had to scramble a long distance to get in there and was intent on stopping the fight.
by twotone on Feb 23, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is why I think the left hook was what impelled him to stop the fight. Rather Koscheck’s complete lack of reaction to it.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know...
The guy ran over there like his favorite bar yelled last call. There was no stopping him.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But just like the ref in the Dos Santos/Struve fight
who ran over when he saw Struve go down. Once he got there he saw that Struve was not out & then waited to see if he could defend himself, then he stepped in. This one & the Hardy/Markham stoppage are perfect examples of how to stop a fight decisively without the downed fighter taking unnecessary damage.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This a delicate mix of
protecting fighters while still allowing them the chance to recover. For me, I want to see a definitive finish & it does not have to be overly violent. If a fighter is flash ko’d, drops & then is defending when he hits the mat then he should be allowed to continue, especially if the other fighter does not attempt to finish him. This whole thing would have been avoided if Thiago was not showboating & simply followed Koscheck down & threw a punch or two. The ref was right behind him & would have stopped him very quickly.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"Still, hard-nosed veterans like Koscheck should be given the benefit of the doubt."
This is the only part that I do not agree with. Stoppages should be done the same way no matter the experience or pedigree of the fighter involved.
by dnevil001 on Feb 23, 2009 3:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Complete agreement.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Kos fight I thought was stopped a little too soon, but the entire night ref’s seemed to jump in early to save guys I have no idea what that was about at UFC 95. Hopefully next time the UFC goes to the UK, they’ll get the refs together and let them know to get their stuff together because there were several iffy stoppages on that card.
by Raker on Feb 23, 2009 4:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
For those in doubt, take a look again at Matt Lindland vs Vitor Belfort at Affliction 2. Inside 30 seconds, Belfort lands a very clean left hook that puts Lindland on the ground semi-conscious, very similar to the way Koscheck was knocked down. Unlike the Koscheck fight, however, the referee allowed Belfort to proceed with his attack, and naturally landed 3 more very strong punches, the very last of which put Lindland out COMPLETELY – and anyone who witnessed that surely must have felt very unconfortable with the muscle spasms that resulted from the concussion.
If the first punch put Lindland at 50%, the next two punches didnt do much damage, but the 4th leveled him completely. Did a semi-conscious Koscheck have to be dealt a few more punches until that one big punch gave him a similar concussion, just so that there is no doubt of an early stoppage?
by Ectoras on Feb 23, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
great point, the author of this post also used the term “flash KO’’ while describing that fight as well. i wonder if that stoppage was definitive enough for him and if he would like to see Koscheck have the "opportunity” to end up like Lindland.
by #5mmafan on Feb 23, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This post was on the right track but I'm not sure where it ended up...
Are you saying that fighters should be allowed to take damage after they’ve been knocked unconscious just to see if they have recovered yet or not? That seems pretty dangerous. If a fighter is unconscious, he by definition, is unable to defend his self. The ref should stop the fight as soon as possible after such a diagnosis is made — shouldn’t he?
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
by mma_dude on Feb 23, 2009 9:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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