Josh Koscheck's Loss Blows 170 Pound Division Wide Open
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2009 9:00 AM EST
in MMA News
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At UFC 74, Josh Koscheck lost a tough decision to Georges St. Pierre. St. Pierre was the clear winner, but Koscheck put in the most competitive performance against GSP during St. Pierre's recent streak. According to Dave Meltzer, he was just two wins away from getting a rematch. His shocking loss created a situation in which there are no clear contenders for St. Pierre's title after Thiago Alves.
Perhaps the biggest winner coming out of last night was Carlos Condit, who now only needs a few wins to be the number one contender. Even then, Condit is not much of a challenge for GSP at this point.
If GSP beats Alves, the welterweight division will rapidly start to resemble the middleweight division, a division with a champion seen as so dominant that his fights are greeted with growing disinterest. I believe Koscheck's loss made a St. Pierre vs. Anderson Silva fight a lot more likely, assuming Anderson is able to get by his next few opponents.
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Condit’s gonna need to get passed Kampmann before he starts thinking about a title shot but there is still Anthony Johnson, Mike Swick, and a rematch with John Fitch personally I think Fitch was more impressive in his fight with GSP then Kos was.
GSP vs. Johnson or Swick at this point is a borderline joke. Johnson himself laughed at the idea of fighting GSP and said he would get destroyed. I think Johnson may have the skill to do it one day. The problem is that all the guys Georges hasn’t fought yet are multiple levels below him. The appeal is then “will someone be able to hit him in the back of the head like Serra?” instead of whether they have the style to beat him. I mean, Mike Swick would just get the shit kicked out of him.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
Not Really.
Past Alves, Kos was the next contender up – now who’s to fight the winner of GSP/Alves? Neither Condit nor Kampmann are ready, Diego just dropped to 155, Karo is in trouble, everyone else is still climbing or not in the UFC. Kos at least could keep the division busy instead of it stagnating like MW.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 23, 2009 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
GSP has had 1 title defense in 09, he has his next one lined up, and barring an injury or being banished into coaching a season of TUF ,he will probably have a 3rd title defense before the year is over. Against who you ask? Could be an Anthony Johnson, Dustin Hazelett, Carlos Condit, Martin Kampmann or even Paulo Thiago. Do I think any of those guys are the best matchup now? No! But 1 big win from any of them in the next 5 or 6 months could put them in line. Point is : Kos losing this fight doesn’t make the WW division stagnant. The point becomes moot if Alves defeats GSP.
Fitch could get the rematch after two wins. He already has one. Give him either Dan Hardy or Mike Swick. Ain’t much else out there for him.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
True...
You could even throw Fitch in there, or God forbid one of the guys I mentioned above got a crack at Fitch and won???? Instant contender.
IMO if your training partners are the guys ahead of you and you choose not to fight them, then you go to the bottom of the list. I am so sick of hearing “but they are in the same camp or train together.” Last I noticed fighting is not a team sport. You may need a team to train with, but your team is not in there with you when you fight.
by gremlin1496 on Feb 23, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
What would be the point of a Fitch rematch exactly?
Their last fight was 5 rounds of complete & utter domination by GSP & Fitch absolutely never threatened him at all. I give Fitch credit for having huge balls & not quitting, but he has nothing to offer that would worry GSP.
Agreed.
Does anyone realize that 6 of St. Pierre’s last 8 fights have been against Matt Hughes, Matt Serra, and BJ Penn- and that he only lost one of those fights? I’d rather see him fight someone he hasn’t fought before. St. Pierre/Fitch 2 would be like Faber/Pulver 2- a pointless rematch.
by BilboMcFonzie on Feb 23, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Round 2 was actually quite competitive. No ground play, Fitch landed some stuff and had GSP backing up at times. I don’t know if that round is a blueprint or if it was all a part of Jackson’s plan somehow, but he seemed game for at least those 5 minutes.
by ununkvadrium on Feb 23, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Being somewhat competitive in one round is a blueprint?
If that is all that Fitch can muster is somewhat competitive then why would anyone want to see that again?
That is just an indication of just how good GSP is right now.
Any round where GSP doesn’t absolutely dominate his opponent is almost viewed as a lost round or sign of a blueprint to beat GSP, even when GSP won the round on the cards.
In GSP’s last 2 title defenses, he’s won all 9 rounds, and won 4 of the 9 rounds with 10-8 scores on the judges cards. His 2 title fights before that (Hughes III and Serra II, he won all 4 rounds easily, 2 of those rounds ending 10 seconds before the bell with a TKO/sub)
by Hardcharger on Feb 23, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I agree completely,
but that is exactly why I have no interest seeing him fight someone he has already dominated before. Let him face the new guys until someone else is ready.
I appreciate the superiority of GSP over Fitch, don’t get me wrong. I just thought it wasn’t really fair to call that round “utter domination”.
And: No, I don’t think that you can beat GSP by almost winning one round out of five. The same way I don’t think the way to beat Fedor is by hopping into an overhand right. That’s why I didn’t say that the fight was a blueprint, obviously.
by ununkvadrium on Feb 24, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
If Silva beats Leites, Silva could fight again in August – perhaps against Okami. If Silva wins that match and if GSP beats Alves, A. Silva and GSP could fight in December.
Meanwhile, Maia, Marquardt, the winner of Bisping vs. Henderson and others should sort amongst themselves who to fight the MW champ next year.
by Flying Gogoplata on Feb 23, 2009 2:48 AM EST reply actions
His only losses prior to Paulo Thiago were to Alves, St. Pierre, and Fickett. Not bad considering his career. He’s a top ten Welterweight in the world based on raw talent and skill. He just needs to get back to what got him where he is, his vicious ground-and-pound and relentless pace. Ironically, a fact that might only interest me, Thiago beat Ferrid Kheder who beat Drew Fickett. Fickett and Thiago, ironically, both beat Koscheck. But back to the point at hand, Koscheck needs to get back to his wrestling and stop worrying about his crowd-pleasing style so much. He just needs to win. Fitch your way to a title shot, kid. Just do not lose. Wrestle your way to a shot.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
As long as he was getting results with the sloppy
one-shot-KO approach, I think most everyone was ok with him continuing. Now that he looks like a Persian cat (y’know..hit the wall face-first doing 60?) it’s time for him to re-incorporate the wrestling. His wrestling is world-class, and he needs to use it offensively again.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I guess the UFC should just retire their Middleweight and Welterweight devisions, since apparently they’re both redundant.
GSP vs. Silva will decide the best 157-186 pound fighter, and then no fights should ever happen within this weight range ever again.
Make it happen, Dana White!
Pretty unique position you’re taking there.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 23, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
Eh – I wasn’t really looking forward to watching GSP outwrestle Kos.
Shie-lds, Shie-lds, Shie-lds
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 23, 2009 2:56 AM EST reply actions
Who even knows if they’ll get Jake, and man is his style just custom made to get completely killed by St. Pierre.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
Non UFC fighters did get a nice boost in value with Koscheck losing.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Fictional Scenario A: GSP Fights Alves in july(or around then), probably does not fight again til the december show for the end of year event. Paulo Thiago in that time fights 3 times, he beats someone like Fitch and perhaps Karo or Stun Gun, maintaining an undefeated record until December he could become a candidate.
Fictional Scenario B: GSP beats Alves Fights Anderson Silva in December and nobody fights for the WW belt until 2010 after Alves.
Fictional Scenario C: GSP Loses to Alves, Alves fights Fitch/Koscheck in December after Fitch/Koscheck string out a couple of wins. Koscheck rematch story is good “Im better blah blah”. Fitch “I have beat him once before I’ll be him again.” Fitch would probably win, Fitch vs GSP Rematch, GSP wins, etc.
I am thinking scenario B is most likely.
They’d probably be thrilled if A happened too. Condit could get on a roll too. They should do Anthony Johnson v. Paulo Thiago.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2009 3:21 AM EST up reply actions
They should do Anthony Johnson v. Paulo Thiago.
They want to help Thiago’s rise, not kill it. Johnson is the future of 170. Alves will beat GSP (yeah, I said it!) and Johnson will work his way into a title shot by the end of 2009 which will set up his dominant run in 2010. Johnson is the Liddell of 170. Simple as that. He actually is working on a ground game, though, unlike Liddell. And he’s evolving his game, unlike Liddell. Johnson is a freak. And when he starts really wrecking the bigger names at 170, people will finally take notice. Hell, give him Koscheck next actually. Either that or give him Mike Swick or Dustin Hazelett. Better yet, let him retire Matt Hughes. That’ll really make my damn day.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
Is it just me, or would Saunders vs Johnson be a nice fight to watch? Saundersm, while not a contender by far, should be included in the “prospect”-category if you ask me…
"They called him the axe-murderer because he was murdering chumps. They should have been calling him the chump-murderer..." Rampage Jackson (commentating on the fighting abilities of Wanderlei "F#ck Chuck" Silva.)
by BlueberryMuffin on Feb 23, 2009 6:37 AM EST up reply actions
I think we’ll definitely see GSP vs Silva if they both win their next fights. There is no one for Georges to fight at 170 if he beats Alves and would only be taking money out of his pocket by waiting to pull the trigger on a GSP vs Silva super fight in December. This also allows time for Joe Silva to create real contenders at both 170 and 185 through a series of eliminators. IE Henderson vs Bisping, Wand vs Franklin, Okami vs Marquardt, Maia vs Miller and is Vitor coming back? Fitch vs Condit/Kampman, Hardy vs Davis, Kos vs Sanchez II, Swick vs Hazelett, Thiago vs Hughes or Lytle, would all start to sort welter weight back out one thing is for sure there is no shortage of intriguing fights in either division.
YAMATO DAMASHII
I think part of the problem is the “I won`t fight him, cause we`re buddies” Or “I won`t fight him cause we train together”. In WW you have THREE (3) contenders in WW from AKA and in my mind, that`s what messin up the division.
I for one would watch a fight between Kos/Fitch, Fitch/Swick or Kos/Swick. The winner of one of those match-ups is in my opinion an instant contender. I could understand if they don`t wanna fight their brother (Klitschko), but this is starting to get ridiculous.
I think that UFC should have made Swick fight an AKA-guy if he wanted to move to WW.
"They called him the axe-murderer because he was murdering chumps. They should have been calling him the chump-murderer..." Rampage Jackson (commentating on the fighting abilities of Wanderlei "F#ck Chuck" Silva.)
by BlueberryMuffin on Feb 23, 2009 6:36 AM EST reply actions
Oh. And this loss for Kos might be just the thing to eke out an inter-AKA-fight. Why should he fight Fitch or swick if he`s next in line anyways? If you put a titleshot on the line and ask nicely in the next couple of weeks, I`m sure you could get Kos to see the big picture.
"They called him the axe-murderer because he was murdering chumps. They should have been calling him the chump-murderer..." Rampage Jackson (commentating on the fighting abilities of Wanderlei "F#ck Chuck" Silva.)
by BlueberryMuffin on Feb 23, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions
geeky idea
Here’s my theory: If Anderson Silva wins in Montreal they will bring GSP into the cage to announce the match up, regardless of the GSP vs. Alves fight. The crowd would go nuts!
Hilarious how
Rogan stated that Kos is becoming just like Chuck Liddell and then he gets KTFO! lol Kos needs to get serious and get his act together. Cut that dirty mop on his head, study tape on his opponents, stop relying on the overhand right and mix it up in there. This loss should be a good thing for Kos if he accepts that he did in fact lose and it wasn’t an early stoppage. If he doesn’t accept it then its downhill for him IMO.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
I think it was a perfect assessment...but not in the way he may have meant.
Kos seems to have fell in love with his fists, and much like LIddel, he has somewhat forsaken his wrestling.
In a way, this loss was set up by his knockout of Yoshida (sp?), that knockout seems to have made him enamorate of his standup in a way that led to this loss.
This topic is dead on.
However you viewed Koscheck as a top WW contender for the belt, there is a problem for future opponents for GSP (if he beats Alves).
Even before Kos’s UFC 95 bout, I was asking others who the UFC was grooming for the next #1 contender spot after Alves gets his shot in July. It’s a tough spot for the UFC.
They have/had Fitch, Koscheck, Swick, Condit/Kampan, and Hughes/Serra as top contenders. How do they schedule the next fights amongst that group to create the next contender?
Kos just eliminated himself. Swick and Fitch won’t fight each other. What fights would establish, for the UFC and the fans, the next #1 contender?
If anyone wants to take a hypothetical shot at how they’ll match up Fitch and Swick and the Condti/Kampman and Hughes/Serra winners (possibly against guys not on this list like Anthony Johnson or Dan Hardy, etc), I’d love to hear it.
As for the GSP-Anderson possibility, I think that’s not anywhere in the near future with Marquardt’s latest dominating win. GSP won’t go anywhere near 185 while Nate is that close to a title shot.
"GSP won’t go anywhere near 185 while Nate is that close to a title shot."
I agree. These guys seem to be good friends as well as teammates/training partners & I am sure that GSP will allow Nate to get his title shot before he thinks about moving up.
No to mention NAte would absolutely OWN GSP at this point. His size difference is dramatic and reminds me why GSP should stay at 170.
I am not sure about that.
When watching these two training together GSP is very close to Nate in size & his speed would be worlds of trouble for Nate. How exactly would Nate own GSP? Better striking-absolutely not. Better wrestling-from all accounts no. BJJ-NO.
I view this as a flash KO that could have happened to anyone. I don’t se this as a huge detriment to his career moving forward. He’s still young, he’s still talented and he will be back.
Let’s see who we remember in 10 years, Paulo Thiago or Kos.
Yeah, he got caught & it is because he was/is beginning to think of himself
as a knockout artist instead of playing to his strengths. He is still fairly young & is obviously talented so I guess that we will have to wait & see if he can find that balance between being a controlling wrestler & utilizing his striking when necessary without overplaying it.
Also, I think he was respecting the fact that Paulo Thiago had a reputation as a ground wizard and wanted to play it safe by keeping it standing. Judging on Thiagos crappy standup it was the right plan. He just got caught,. Thiago would get KTFO by most people in that division based on his standup.
I understand playing it safe by not going to the ground,
but these are still tiny gloves & he was still fighting a grown man so it seems really silly for him to basically act like it was a sparring match. My point is that Koscheck needs to realize what he is as an MMA fighter at this point in his career. He is a wrestler with average striking, decent power but not too technical.
There is a difference between planning on keeping the fight standing
and not even trying to perform a take down.
Much like the last few Liddel fights, not even appearing to be interested in trying a take down turned Kos’ game into a one dimensional situation.
Had he even faked a takedown attempt or two, then his stand up might have been more successful.
My point exactly.
Koscheck is still pretty one dimensional as an MMA fighter & cannot afford to try to transition to all standup. On your comment about Liddell, I cannot only remember one fight (wand) in the past 4 or 5 years where he attempted a takedown so it is a little different as he definitely established himself as a striker, even though he failed to evolve as his opponents did.
I agree. Kos will be back and will fight often enough to climb the ladder.
There’s a lack of a clear hierarchy for WW contenders, so Kos can win his way back to the top if he keeps improving.
by Hardcharger on Feb 23, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I guess that loss means two other things:
(a) Kos will stop pretending he’s Mike Zambidis.
(b) I will never, ever have to hear Rogan idiotically calling Koscheck the 170lb version of Chuck Liddell.
On (b) – c’mon man. Sometimes it really aggravates me that Rogan/Goldie fall in love with one of the fighters and constantly fellate him during the fight and either completely ignore or undermine the other fighter’s effectiveness, while totally over-reacting to everything their current love interest does. They did it in the Sanchez vs. Joe fight too, granted Sanchez clearly won that fight – they were absolutely slobbering all over missed combos by Sanchez and saying zilch when Joe Daddy did something.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I agree with you on B,
but both Rogan/Goldie are UFC employees & to some degree are there to pump the fighters the UFC wants them to. The Sanchez/Stevenson fight really bored the shit out of me. I kept waiting for something exciting to happen but it never did. At one point early in the fight Stevenson even had Diego’s neck in a standing guillotine but did not even attempt to lock it on. I still do not understand the gameplan from Stevenson.
LOL...
ino, ino…combination of not being on the ol’ intrawebz at all lately and an overwhelming amount of laziness.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
but what if gsp does fight silva and wins? (a big if, but possible) then what? he will have beaten the man that has dominated the mw division and like many have suggested above he probably doesn’t want to stand in marquardt’s way to the mw crown and he has already wiped out the ww division. where does gsp go if he beats silva? i think they might put this superfight off for a little while, the last one(gsp/penn) didn’t go so well any way.
i dimensional fighters get exposed in the ufc. i dont see that happening to gsp anytime soon. best,wrester, still a very good striker, and a black belt in bjj, thats 3 dimensions so far. matt hughes WAS a 1 dimensional fighter when he was champ and didn’t evolve. gsp has definetly evolved. still hurt over the bj thrashing?
I agree, he focuses too much on intelligently winning at the expense of the other skills, like being lucky, ignoring his strengths, and losing in an exciting manner.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’ve said something, but what you’ve said is absurd and not remotely supported by any factual evidence. GSP is currently the most diverse WW, easily, and perhaps the most diverse fighter in all of MMA.
by Hardcharger on Feb 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
GSP is Matt Hughes 2.0. His bread and butter is wrestling and ground and pound. Every fight I watch him in is like ground hog’s day.
Now, watch Anderson Silva. He win fights with punches, knees, submission, even injury through telekinesis. I can already predict GSP’s next win: decision or stoppage via overwhelming wrestling and ground and pound.
LOL at this analysis.
Armbar win against Matt Hughes, knees to the body win against Serra (how many finishes like that have we seen), 4 knockdowns standing against Fitch in a UD win, and complete domination standing and on the ground against BJ Penn (who you, absolutely incorrectly, preditcted to win easily).
GSP’s striking is near the top of the WW divison. It’s the most diverse. How many other guys do you see who can throw the switch jab/right low kick combo, or superman punch/left low kick combo? Spinning back fists? How many guys can and will switch stances and fight both orthodox and southpaw like GSP? His wrestling is obviously the best at WW and all of MMA, and his top game is unprecedented, able to pass anyone’s guard with unmatched pace, and terriffic GNP.
by Hardcharger on Feb 23, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My name is cyph and I don’t watch fights I just talk about them.
by George Lucas on Feb 23, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
In other news, Rampage Jackson is a poor striker, Frank Mir has no ground skills, Chael Sonnen has outstanding submission defense, and Kenny Florian’s refusal to evolve as a fighter is why he has taken so long to get a title shot.
by ufc4 on Feb 23, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
While I don’t necessarily agree with you, I definitely see what you’re getting at.
The frustrating thing is that he is truly gifted in all dimensions but I have a feeling that his training with the Greg Jackson camp has given him the go-to game plan….one of those, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it things and honestly it’s pretty tough to argue against doing anything different since he’s so dominating in his current incarnation.
But you’re right – he does rely almost entirely on TD + control + g’n’p.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Well, you’re simplifying all of this IMO. He has shown the ability to outpunch boxers (BJ) and take down wrestlers (Kos, fitch).
I think he’s very Fedor like in that he has the tools to beat anyone at their own game. Just becasue you don’t show all of those tools at once doesn’t mean you don’t have different levels.
yep
it’s on his opponents to stop gsp from taking them down. once fighters were able to do this to hughes, he was like a fish out of water. when or if a fighter is capable of stopping gsp’s takedowns, i’m positive he will be able to adapt. you also have to take into consideration the strength of competiton when comparing hughes to gsp. gsp has fought and dominated fighters who i belive would have beaten hughes at his utmost best.
That's exactly what I said...
He’s far from only being one dimensional, but watch him fight, he masterfully utilizes that one aspect above all else.
Do I think he’s got great striking and subs? Yes, I do and I’ve seen him use them before. Does the GSP of now use them that often? Most usually as a means to an end, the takedown and dominant g’n’p.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I think his GnP is the most obvious part of his game, but it’s also his main defense (fighters have to worry about getting taken down and top control when they strike with him). It seems to me that GSP doesn’t have the best striking defense (Matt Serra and Fitch both seemed to get through at times) but ultimately never got into rhythm because they were always taken down.
GSP’s other weakness is his striking power. Though he’s dropped several fighters with clean shots, it usually doesn’t KO them. He typically just grinds people to helpless hault (Kos, Karo, Fitch, BJ etc) Of course if he decided to have KO power he probably could have it, but he’d have to plant his feet and lose the way he elusively floats around the floor. I find his GnP really entertaining as far as GnP goes.
Your last couple sentences are dead on. GSP’s style limits his power, but it’s a tradeoff he’s more than willing to make. Sure, he can load up and bring the power, like Fitch felt in the numerous knockdowns, but GSP stays light on his feet to not only control distance, but to avoid TDs and to set up his unique style. Nobody else throws the switch jab/right low kick combo or superman punch/left low kick combo like he does. You can’t sit down in your stance like others do and swing for the fences with GSP’s style.
This is like saying John Stockton shouldn’t have passed so much or Albert Pujols should hit it to the opposite field more- why should you get away from your specialty when you are the best in the world at it? GSP is exceptionally well-rounded but of course he is going to go to his wrestling and ground-n-pound more than anything, he’s the best at it. If Josh Koscheck stuck to his strengths he wouldn’t have gotten KTFO’d Saturday by a guy who is clearly inferior to him.
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