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UFC 95 Fallout: The 185 Contender Picture

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Ed Soares has recently suggested that Anderson Silva could potentially take a fight at 205 after his fight with Thales Leites at UFC 97 on April 18th. I say Anderson’s window to play around in the Light Heavyweight division has closed.

Anderson’s story over the last year has been a tale of two minds. After suggesting in early 2008 that he was near the end of his fighting career, Silva notified Dana White that he would like to begin fighting with increasing regularity. This lead to two fights in the span of three months; his bloody and brutal KO of James Irvin last July at UFN 14 and the peculiar bout with Cote only three months later at UFC 90. Disappointed in his performance with Cote, Silva was said to have refused several proposed fights from UFC matchmaker Joe Silva in the following months. Soares alleges that Silva has been in the gym every day since the Cote fight, determined to make an example of his next opponent. That unfortunate individual is one Mr. Thales Leites.

I’m prepared to assume, for the sake of this conversation, that Anderson Silva disposes of Leites in convincing fashion. It’s arguable, but let’s save that for another time. James Irvin, Patrick Cote and Thales Leites, while all talented in their own right, are not exactly the group of fighters I’d like to squander Anderson Silva’s remaining fights on (however many that is). And after UFC 95, I’d insist the Spider has too much work to do to consider taking any fights at 205.

The question is; with Anderson taking a fight every three months, how does the 185 division shake out? The five most qualified individuals to face Anderson Silva in this calendar year are as follows;

Yushin "Thunder" Okami

In my mind, Okami is undervalued, immensely talented, and has been due a title shot for some time. This whole scenario would be much easier to sort out if it were Okami, rather than Leites, facing Silva in April (with Leites facing one of the two victorious contenders of 95— preferably a rematch with Nate).

Nate "The Great" Marquardt

Second to him is Marquardt, who has vastly improved since losing to Silva at UFC 73. His well rounded abilities and newly aggressive striking abilities could make him the most qualified contender. Though, that very aggression could also be the death of him in another fight with Silva.

Demian Maia

Demian Maia is next. It could be argued that he deserves a shot above Marquardt. For my money, while his BJJ was as impressive as ever in submitting Chael Sonnen last night at UFC 95, he also exposed the sloppiness of his underdeveloped stand up. Maia continually approached Sonnen with his chin exposed and ate a number of inside jabs early on. One has to deduce that a striker the likes of Anderson Silva wouldn’t let that fly lay idly in his web for long.

Dan "Hollywood" Henderson & Michael "The Count" Bisping

Fourth and fifth are the two coaches of the upcoming season of The Ultimate Fighter; Henderson and Bisping. These two are scheduled to face one another at UFC 100 in July. The victor of this match up would eliminate his opposition from this conversation (for the short term) and perhaps make the case for a quick title shot (with their present marketability being much greater than the other available options).

Does the UFC run the risk of spoiling a top contender in having Maia and Marquardt face one another? If so, what are the alternatives? Who could each man fight, to bide their time, that could still pose some amount of risk and credibility? Should the winner of the Hendo vs Bisping showdown be awarded a shot at The Ultimate? In any scenario, this complicated matter would be made much simpler should Silva decide to fight more often, much as he suggested last year. And I, for one, am thrilled to see so many legitimate options at 185 finally presenting themselves.

I also just came across a poll on this very matter, created by BE user klown, located here.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 81 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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It might help if they put Okami on the main card in his last fight, or fought someone better than Dean Lister.

by xDieseLx on Feb 22, 2009 5:44 PM EST reply actions  

I do agree with that sentiment, to a degree. Lister isn’t a pushover, and Dana has been quoted as saying Okami is in line for a title shot. Plus, there’s something of a story there, with their previous fight (Okami/Silva, that is).

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Okami will never get a title shot

The UFC’s challenge with finding an opponent against Silva is marketability. As great as anderson Silva is they’re having trouble making money off of him. The buyrates are proof that this is true. Silva/Cote did only 300,000 buys, Silva/Hendo 325,00 buys and Silva/Franklin 2 did 325,000. These numbers fall far below the average for other title fights.
This leads me to why Okami won’t get a title shot even if he deserves it. While they can use the whole wanting to avenge the last loss angle, the fight simply won’t draw. Okami doesn’t put on “exciting” fights and doesn’t have that much name recognition, which really makes it hard for the casual fan to shell out 50 bucks to see the champ fight someone they don’t know. Part of the blame goes to the UFC for not promoting him enough or even putting him on the main card as of late.

by Brian Bobby on Feb 22, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions  

Okami will get a title shot when UFC hits Japan.

by Riney on Feb 22, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

That would make a lot of sense, but at this rate, he’ll be waiting a good while yet.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks to the ghost that fixed the formatting. I’m not really into the MS Word style editor..

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions  

Rec'd.
Who could each man fight, to bide their time, that could still pose some amount of risk and credibility?

Guys who I wouldn’t mind watching against any of those guys:
Dan Miller
Rousimar Palhares (though he’s already lost to Hendo)
Alan Belcher (though he lost to Okami)
Denis Kang
Ricardo Almeida (lost to Cote)

by Chris Nelson on Feb 22, 2009 6:13 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, but if they’re really planning on using him as part of an Asian invasion, they’re gonna have to keep him active against top guys. Just a thought. Miller and Belcher are the top guys on that list I’d like to see fighting contenders.

by Chris Nelson on Feb 22, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The Miller Bros are something fierce.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey look, two dead MMA organizations! :-D

by Derek Suboticki on Feb 22, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Marquardt has so many interesting fights

I was really hoping for Almeida to beat Cote (which I personally felt he did) so that he could face Marquardt again. Of course, Almeida is now tied up with his Horwich fight and Kang has a fight scheduled in a month here. Belcher, Toquinho and Dan Miller should all be available, though, and are all really good options. Palhares could potentially derail one of them, while I think either guy fighting Belcher would finish him. Good suggestions..

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Almeida vs. Marquardt rematch has to happen eventually, especially after the brawl that occurred in the first fight and the bad blood between them. It needs to happen, and could produce some serious war of words.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Feb 22, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

They should bring in Renzo for Marquardt’s warm-up fight. :p He can get revenge for the soccer kick.

by ilostmydog on Feb 22, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

This calls for a 185 Grand Prix

by xDieseLx on Feb 22, 2009 7:47 PM EST reply actions  

You have to put Nate in there with Maia for the next shot IMO. Okami has just been way too far below the radar the last year to get a title shot right now.

If Bisping beats Hendo I suppose he should get the next shot although I would like to see him fight a guy like Maia or Nate before that because i don’t think Bisping is better or more deserving than either of them at this point.

by Bigperm on Feb 22, 2009 8:04 PM EST reply actions  

Neither do I

And I’m of the opinion that he hasn’t really proven anything (Bisping). But if he beats Hendo? I’d have to see it to believe it, but it’d really sway my impression of him.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 22, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

It really is "put up or shut up" time

for Bisping’s UFC starhood. If he wants to be a credible force in the UFC, as anything other than a European draw, then he’s got to win one of these high-profile fights in grand fashion. Dan Henderson provides an opportunity for him to do so, but it’s not like Hendo’s going to roll over for him.

Time for Bisping to step up.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 22, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

If Bisping beats Hendo

He does probably deserve a title shot.

by rainmaker6 on Feb 22, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

If Bisping beats Hendo, I think he should take on Nate or Maia personally, but the UFC will push him to a title shot in England for a huge draw. That’s going to be the perfect plan if Bisping can pull it off.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Feb 22, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

If he beats Henderson, then he has earned it enough.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 22, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a Bisbing fan

So I DO want to watch him get creamed by Anderson Silva

by Mr.Kib on Feb 23, 2009 4:17 AM EST up reply actions  

klown's fun with match-ups

Blackout, thanks for plugging my poll, rec’d your post.

Here were go:

The gatekeepers to the Top 20 are Day, Belcher, Quarry, Leben and Grove.

Palhares and Almeida need a spot in the Top 20, so throw them a gatekeeper each, but make it a gatekeeper coming off a win, so that if he beats Palhares or Almeida, he has the opportunity to shed the gatekeeper label and gather momentum towards being a legit contender. I would match Palhares vs Belcher and Almeida vs Grove.

The winners of those two fights would earn a shot at the gatekeepers to the Top 10: fighters like Gouveia, Cote and Macdonald.

Kang was supposed to use Belcher as a quick stepping stone but he was stopped, which calls his legitimacy into question. He should take on another gatekeeper, one coming off a loss: Day, Quarry or Leben. The loser of that fight would be in danger of being cut.

I don’t like the Henderson-Bisping match-up because I don’t feel Bisping has worked his way up the ladder. But I felt the same about Rua-Griffin and Liddell-Evans, and look at those guys now. So if Bisping wins, he becomes the undisputed #1 contender. If he loses, we’ve learned nothing. I don’t think beating Palhares and Bisping should entitle Henderson to a title shot. (Franklin counts.) I’d give him one more fight against a top-of-the-chain contender first, someone of the caliber of Okami, Maia and Marquardt.

Another unpleasant match-up is A.Silva vs Leites. As the poll above shows, nobody believes this one makes sense, but it’s a reality, and more deserving contenders like Okami and Maia must wait. So why not have Okami vs Maia? It’s a great stylistic match-up. I think if anyone can take apart Okami, it’s Maia. A Maia win would make him the undisputed #1 contender, and the UFC and many fans would heave sighs of relief at the derailment of "Decision Okami".

That leaves Marquardt, who has already fought for the belt and lost. I am reluctant to approve of rematches and sequels, especially when the outcome of the first fight was not in question, as in Silva’s crushing of Henderson and Marquardt. I think those 2 need to take a backseat to Okami and Maia. I would match Marquardt against Sonnen or Cote to tread water while the pinnacle of the division sorts itself out.

The wild card is the catchweight fight of Franklin vs W.Silva. If Franklin wins, the fight is meaningless, and its relevance to the MW division is questionable, since Franklin is likely to continue competing at 205. But If Silva wins, a new contender has entered the division with a bang, and he finds himself not more than one win or two from a title shot. If he beats Franklin, I’d give him someone at the level of Marquardt, Gouveia, Cote, followed by a title shot or a #1 contender fight.

Exciting possibilities abound…

by klown on Feb 22, 2009 9:45 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Nice post. I may not agree with everything, but rec’d nonetheless.

Just to note, Kang is already getting a guy to beat in the form of Xavier Foupa-Pokam (sp?). If he can’t submit a guy with as remedial a ground game as Professor X, he probably shouldn’t be in the UFC any longer.

Don’t sleep on Goran Reljic or Dan Miller either. I expect them to make as much noise, if not more, around the bottom half of the division than Almeida and Palhares.

by ilostmydog on Feb 22, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Reljic has to come back first

But yeah, I’m really hype on him, too. He’s just not going to be in the title picture this year.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Don’t sleep on Goran Reljic

+ 1

He’s back 2nd half of 2009 and then IT’S ON.

by Chris Nelson on Feb 23, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

He just needs to imagine his opponent as an underwater car windshield.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Maia/Marquardf for #1 contender…

The biggest problem is that Leites screwed the entire deal for Okami. Okami should have just been given the shot at that point, give Leites another fight, and push Maia and Marquardt to the top.

I feel Leites got a gift from Dana, and Okami is really getting the shaft. They eventually will HAVE to do that fight, so why not do it with Silva. Leites vs. Silva isn’t intriguing and neither is Okami vs. Silva, so why did Okami not get that fight? It doesn’t make sense to me.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Feb 22, 2009 11:23 PM EST reply actions  

Japan push.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 22, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Leites is on a five fight winning streak including a win over Marquardt. He has only one career loss. Him getting a title shot isn’t exactly a gift.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 1:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Additionally, I’ve never thought that a 99% chance of getting your face rearranged into a fractal of blood, tears, and shattered dreams qualified as a gift.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 2:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Anderson's not that mean.

He does it early, with one of his first three or four power combos. The man’s a humanitarian.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 23, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

If he is standing and you are on the ground, he will put you out with precisely targeted strikes. I love his standing attacks on grounded fighters.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I still subscribe to the belief that Anderson used telekinesis to blow out Cote’s knee, so I don’t think I’d call him a humanitarian.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

That all depends

on how much he knew about Pat’s skull structure, and whether or not the severe trauma of a well-placed clinch knee to the head would have been worse than the trauma suffered by blowing out his knee.

Precognition beats telekinesis every day of the week.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 23, 2009 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Cote seemed to have one hell of a chin.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, that whole fight

has somehow been blocked out in my (usually perfect) visual memory. The way it ended was just so anti-climactic that my brain seems to rebel at the notion of remembering the affair.

But yeah, Cote was tough in that fight…I remember that much.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 23, 2009 3:09 AM EST up reply actions  

The whole ‘Silva had a bad night thing’ was actually ‘Silva didn’t want to get fucking caught by Cote.’

by Derek Suboticki on Feb 23, 2009 3:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Cote hits hard, and there are 25 minutes in a title fight. Cote seemed to almost shrug off getting kneed punched and kicked by Silva, so the best way to avoid the lucky punch at that point was to be more defensive and pick him off until he fell.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

yep, i think silva was planning on picking him apart at the start then go for the KO at the later rounds when he cote gets slowly worn out..

but his knee blew so, its not silva’s fault.. I was actually enjoying the fight before the anti climatic end, cause cote was looking silly, like all of machida’s opponents..

i dont know why people give silva shit.. If the knee was okay we would’ve seen another highlight reel KO.

http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/

by Anton Tabuena on Feb 23, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If the knee was okay we would’ve seen another highlight reel KO.

How are you so sure? No one is that sure.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m that sure.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

did cote show any signs to prove me wrong? all he showed was his ability to take shots.. He was slowly getting beaten up..
The best he could’ve done was be a jon fitch and take a massive beating without getting KOed.. and thats being generous..

http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/

by Anton Tabuena on Feb 24, 2009 3:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Some people have a strange perception of that fight. Cote was missing everything and Anderson was just batting him around like a cat playing with a mouse before he finally goes for the jugular.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 24, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Cote was taking Silva shots better than anyone up to that point though I think. However, even though I cannot knock out a brick in a fight…I will win the decision.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 24, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

A granite block of a chin and strong right hand. His knee was fine until it met the mindbullets of Anderson Silva.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 25, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind...

I’m retarded… I completely jogged my memory last night and remembered Leites win over Marquardt.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Someone mentioned a 185-Grand Prix. It’d have to be eight man and the order would have to be completely decided in advance. Not to mention that they’d have to sign the two big free agents out there (Santiago and Mousasi) as well as Belfort.

Bisping versus Henderson.
Okami versus Belfort.

Marquardt versus Mousasi.
Santiago versus Maia.

Now that would be SAWEET! And we all know it would.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:04 AM EST reply actions  

If I’m Dustin Hazelett or Anthony Johnson, I don’t feel the need to sign anyone – especially a Mousasi that has said he’s done at 185.

by Derek Suboticki on Feb 23, 2009 4:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually, Santiago and Belfort are interesting 185’ers that would make the division pretty damn competitive than it already is. Mousasi is done at Middleweight, but I like those acquisitions if the UFC chose to do it.

Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com

by Leland Roling on Feb 23, 2009 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Mousasi has Fedro’s management, so that is out, plus he ballooned up in weight. Santiago is borderline gatekeeper status probably, the only question is above or below.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I have trouble taking Santiago seriously as a contender since I still remember his KO losses to Leben and Belcher so clearly. I know he’s on quite a streak since then, but…

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Please tell me you are not of the ilk that fighters cannot improve. Hell, Marquardt is trying to convince everyone that they can. If people agree that he’s improved in all phases then the same is said for Santiago.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure he has improved. Like I said, he’s on quite a little streak right now. But whenever I see him, I still see the guy who got KO’d by Leben and Belcher in back-to-back fights. Is that wrong? Probably.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

When you look at Kenny Florian, do you still see the guy who went 3-3 in a six fight stretch or do you see the guy who is 6-0 since then?

When you look at Rashad Evans, do you still see the guy who went to seven decisions in a nine fight stretch or do you see the current UFC Light Heavyweight Champion who has finished two straight (top five) opponents?

It’s like me saying I still see the Anderson Silva who got flying heel-hook’d by Ryo Chonan. It holds no water.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No. I’m not making an argument that others shouldn’t see Santiago as a contender. I’m just explaining why I can’t bring myself to. The KO’s are too fresh in my memory. If he continues to rack up wins against quality competition (like Misaki; that was a good start), then I’ll probably believe.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, just to be clear about something. Subjectively I feel like he’s not a contender, but just looking objectively at wins and losses I’d rank him in the top three right now (Fight Matrix tells me so).

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Feb 23, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

So?

He’s not fighting UFC level competition so who cares what streak he’s on. When you’re getting KO’d by young Belcher and swinging wildly Leben, you are not ever gonna be a top guy IMO.

by Bigperm on Feb 23, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

When you get flying heel-hook’d by Ryo Chonan and triangled by Daiju Takase, you are not ever going to be a top guy in my opinion. Same thing if you get beaten by Luiz Azeredo.

Oh wait.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You REALLY like Santiago

You leave Anderson out of this! Ha.. I’m with you, though. I think he’s sort of found his way and is now a legit top ten 185er.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Santiago has bad cardio and a bad chin. One of those can’t be improved and the other hasn’t come up since the fights with Leben and Belcher. It’s perfectly reasonable to be hesitant about calling Santiago a contender.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

You do realize that Santiago submitted Misaki in the fifth round, right? I think is cardio is fine.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Shit I just remembered that right after I posted. Goddamnit, I’m losing my mind in my old age. :-P

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Feb 23, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

You sig makes that comment extra funny!

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

My thing with Santiago is this: He made a ton of mistakes when he was younger. Mistakes that he doesn’t make now. The last two-plus years have been great for him because he was really able to fix a lot of the holes in his game. He no longer really leaves his chin flailing out there wide open when he swings. Anyone who saw his KO loss to Manny knows what I’m talking about. The Santiago of now is definitely ten times better (and smarter!) than the Santiago of a little over two years ago. I think people forget how raw he truly was when he first came into MMA and how raw he was even back as little as two-plus years ago. He’s come a long way since then.

To be judged based off of bad losses early in your career when you’re still learning is not always the best way to be judged. You have to be judged as you progress as a fighter and learn as a fighter. I believe he’s still like 28 years old, or somewhere around there, so he still has room to improve even now. If he were to get another shot in the UFC, I really think he’d surprise a lot of people (at least on here) with how well he’d do. He’d definitely give Anderson Silva a run for his money. Not saying he’d beat him because not many can (outside of Maia and Mousasi). I’m just saying he’d hold his own for a substantial amount of time.

If Mousasi doesn’t go to 205, like he wants to do, he’s the one guy outside of the UFC that can actually beat Silva.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:15 PM EST reply actions  

I will comment on Santiago’s ability to beat Silva once he fights and dominates a UFC middleweight.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Then let him get back in the UFC before you knock him, as well. Deal?

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Deal.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

None of these guys have resume’s that light the world on fire…

Hendo has the best probably… beating palhares then beating franklin (even if it was at 205)

Maia’s best win is Sonnen… who is terribly overrated IMO. typical no game planning wrestler from Quest. Weeee. Other than that he beat Quarry (coming off back surgery i think) and Macdonald.

Okami has wins over Macdonald, Swick and a bunchof lower level guys. he probably deserves it based on the sheer number of fighters he has beaten… even ifthey are C level. That franklin loss (and the fact he is boring as hell) is really counting against him i think

by dbcb on Feb 23, 2009 4:16 PM EST reply actions  

Maia’s best win is Sonnen… who is terribly overrated IMO. typical no game planning wrestler from Quest. Weeee. Other than that he beat Quarry (coming off back surgery i think) and Macdonald.

Quarry had fought twice since back surgery. He fought Sell and knocked him out. After that, he fought Starnes in RunFest 2008. He was looking great up until he fought Maia and I do know people who picked him to beat Maia. He gets MacDonald next at UFC 97.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

It was about 50/50, by my recollection, for those who selected Maia or Quarry.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Spit-take

C level fighters? In the UFC? That’s taking it a bit too far.. As well as devaluing victories or overemphasizing the letter “W” above the nature of the defeat. Maia has manhandled everyone he’s faced with his Jits. It’s not just about who you beat, it’s about how you beat them.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

has he even submitted anyone with a black belt in bjj?

i think maia is great and his bjj is some of the best int he world. how he gets people down is great. but submitting someone who thinks bjj is gay and who didn’t even train against bjj guys or watch tape doesn’t impress me as much as it does everyone else i guess.

by dbcb on Feb 23, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Jason MacDonald is a black belt.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Feb 23, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Maia has beaten two black belts via submission. They were MacDonald and Negao.

Mir has said Maia made him look pathetic on the ground.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Feb 23, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

andits C level guys in comparison to other c levels guys. Kind of like saying the 9th man on an NBA team isn’t any good… if he goes to the boys club he is michael jordan but in the nba he is jst meh

by dbcb on Feb 23, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I have Jst Meh's rookie card

I don’t really qualify whether or not someone should lose on the mat by the color of their jits belt. There are purple belts that are black belt level guys, and there isn’t parity among the many black belts (as far as level of BJJ talent). These are UFC level competitors. Many of these guys are competent on the ground and very well rounded. Somehow this perception of “oh, the other guy isn’t as good at his craft” is only applicable where it concerns BJJ. When guys that have been training western boxing/muay thai for a short time get knocked out, no one says “Well, he doesn’t train kick/boxing”. Instead, he got KTFOLOLZ. Quarry had never been subbed before Maia. McDonald is a black belt. Maia has finished seven of his 10 professional fights in the first round, and eight by sub (with only one fight going to a decision, or to the third round at all). And honestly, none of those guys wanted to be on the mat with him. Maia did his job and won where he wins. I don’t see the fault in that, or what makes that less credible.

I don’t like questioning a resume at this level unless it’s clearly poor (cough, McCarthy, Day, Leben, cough) or a similarly regarded contender has totally outdone that individual. Maia has some quality wins for a relatively fresh 10-0 fighter and has faced three highly regarded and tough opponents in his last three fights.

"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry

by Blackout612 on Feb 23, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

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