B.J. Penn to File Complaint Against Georges St Pierre
by Kid Nate on Feb 2, 2009 5:59 PM EST
in MMA Events
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PrintSports Illustrated breaks the story:
After reportedly deciding to shelve a complaint against UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, it appears B.J. Penn and his representatives have had a change of heart.
Penn's trainer, Rudy Valentino, told SI.com by text message that Penn has decided to move forth in filing a formal complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission alleging Georges St. Pierre's corner knowingly and illegally used Vaseline on his body to gain an unfair advantage Saturday night.
"Lawyers for B.J. are writting (sic) a complaint with the commission," Valentino said. "I just spoke to J.D. and B.J. a few minutes ago. They feel they have ations (sic)."
As far as my reaction to this news, I'm in agreement with this comment by BE reader Dropkick434:
It comes down to this. No fighter should ever have to worry about their opponent trying to grease themselves in a fight. The fact that this is tolerable to anyone is a shock to me. And the fact a writer I formally respected on my favorite site takes the side that the victim in this case has no integrity because he wants his opponent to fight by the same rules is absolutely reprehensible. Victim might be over dramatic but I don’t understand why this has all been about BJ when it sounds like Chuck Liddell had a bigger part in starting the controversy and we wouldn’t even be talking about this if GSP’s team hadn’t rubbed vaseline all over his shoulders and back.
Zak Woods has a couple of good historical analogies (he also agrees with me that Rome is Wrong):
the suspicious use of some topical product by Kenny Rogers in the 2006 World Series. The St. Louis Cardinals correctly identified that Rogers had some substance on his hand that was affecting his pitching ability. The impact was not as great to change the outcome of the World Series, St. Louis won, but the Cardinals were in the right to point out a violation and demand an investigation, the latter of which they didn't do.
The second analgous example comes from the world of boxing when Alexis Arguello fought Aaron Pryor. Pryor won the first bout with a techincal knockout in the 14th round. However the fight was tainted when Pryor's trainer called for a special water bottle right before the TKO, referring to it as "the bottle I mixed", leading to speculation it was tainted. The two met again and that time it only took 10 rounds for Pryor to defeat Arguello.
There are several parallels in these two events as well as UFC 94. All involve suspicious substances that could be construed as cheating. Yet, in the two examples I citied, the subtances did not affect the result.
Luke has already had to shut down comments in his last post on this topic so consider yourselves warned to play nice in the comments. No name calling and try to keep your disagreements reasonable and friendly.
Personally I think even B.J. Penn agrees this didn't effect the fight outcome, but since Mayhem Miller and several other previous opponents of GSP have complained about this practice, I think it merits investigation by the NSAC. Most importantly, I think it means that Thiago Alves will get a fair chance to take the title from GSP without having to worry that he'll be greased.
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“Most importantly, I think it means that Thiago Alves will get a fair chance to take the title from GSP without having to worry that he’ll be greased.”
Being the slick ground guy that he is..
::Rolls eyes::
I don’t think GSP has knowingly “greased” himself. sorry.
by lbk on Feb 2, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going to close my eyes.
Here’s what I hope to see when I open them, upon hearing that this has run its course:
1)
Georges St Pierre defeats BJ Penn (TKO) at 5:00 of the fourth round to retain UFC Welterweight Championship
remains in the record books.
2) The rule that Kierkegaard posted about is further parsed, meaning either the athletic commission’s representative can dictate how much can be placed on the body or made to say none at all.
3) GSP’s corner man is suspended, not banned, if this is found to be a first time offense. Other fighter’s allegations must be left to another arena – this inquiry is limited to this fight, not GSP’s career. Those fighters should’ve done what BJ did if they felt it affected the fight. They did not, so their time to challenge what happened is past.
4) BJ realizes that his future involves killing Kenny Florian.
5) It’s not summer yet.
Forget the scandal, I wanna know more about the witch doctor
by Headkick on Feb 2, 2009 6:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I really don't know...
what anyone expects to come of this “investigation.” At least as it relates to the GSP/Penn fight, and any of his previous fights that may have had alleged greasing incidents. Unless you go back and have some sort of video expert try to estimate how much Vaseline was on Nurse’s hand each time. Even then, the relevant Commission regulation apparently doesn’t define “excessive.” One can assume that ANY amount of Vaseline applied to any part of the body except the face would be excessive. But how is the commission going to be able to “prove” that any Vaseline actually made it to GSP’s back? Will it be a violation if Nurse only put his hand on one or two spots of GSP’s back? Or will they have to see him rubbing his hand all over his back and shoulders?
The best thing that could happen out of an investigation is more and/or better oversight by commission representatives at each corner for every fight. I always assumed that that was their job anyway—to watch the fighter and cornermen between rounds to make sure that no foreign or illegal substances were being applied to the fighters, gloves, etc. Was that not done in this fight? If so, was the commission’s rep just completely asleep between rounds? Daydreaming? Watching Arianny instead of the corner (can’t blame him on that)? If this isn’t done, however, then what the hell is the point of having them there in the first place (other than drug testing)?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
Either monitoring that is part of his job or it isn’t. The fact that the guy took a towel to GSP’s back tells me he saw what was up and fixed it.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
This is typical, GSP gets greased up and it’s the commisions fault.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
If GSP was greased up, then...
that’s GSP’s fault (or more specifically, his cornermen’s fault). If GSP was greased up, and no one caught him doing it AT THE TIME, then that was the commission’s fault (or it should be). The problem is, and the point I was making here, is that it will be virtually impossible for an “investigation” to turn up any actual, tangible PROOF of what happened. I would be absolutely shocked if there are any real consequences of any alleged greasing activity in the past. It seems to me that the only definite positive that could possibly come of all this is that, going forward, the commissions (in Nevada and other states) will be giving this issue a LOT more scrutiny and be more diligent in future fights.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly…not much can be done about what happened, but things can definately be prevented.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
What do you mean- If GSP was greased up?
Why are there people here who are actually asking that question?
His camp, Dana, Chuck Liddell, the cameras, the commission, everyone has said Vaseline was used on his body.
What is with the hard core deniers?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
It’s a matter of whether or not it was “excessive” if I understand the rule correctly and the excessive greasing was remedied during the fight.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
I don’t think it’s so much did it happen, more of, how much was it and did it make a difference.
I’m not trying to deny anything, but I’m not going to go with a belief until an official statement is made by the NSAC or Zuffa.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
The question isn't whether there was ANY...
Vaseline on his body. The question, according to the commission’s own regulation, is whether there was an “excessive” amount of Vaseline on his body. Unless you only have one person in each corner who is allowed to touch Vaseline, and touch the fighter’s face to apply it, but then NOT be allowed to touch any other part of the fighter’s body, then there is probably ALWAYS going to be SOME amount of Vaseline that makes it onto other parts of the fighter.
Sounds like you’re suggesting the only possible solution here is to not allow ANYONE from a fighter’s corner to touch ANY other part of the fighter’s body except the face if there is Vaseline present. That’s going to rile up quite a few fighters and cornermen (some of whom’s sole job it would seem to be is rubbing the fighter down in between rounds).
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like the fans of GSP just want this to go away. Why don’t we just get rid of the whole rule if it’s just too hard to deal with?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm no more of a GSP fan...
than I am of Penn. I’m just approaching this from the perspective of an unbiased, rational MMA fan who wants to figure out how this can be a non-issue going forward. I don’t think the rule is too hard to deal with at all. It just needs to be made clear what the proper procedure is. I think the unified rules probably need to address this whole situation as specifically as possible. Preferably, the commission has the responsibility of putting a rep in each fighter’s corner who watches between rounds. If that rep thinks there is any question as to whether an excessive amount of Vaseline is on a fighter’s body, he wipes him down. If the other fighter complains, the rep wipes him down. But I think the judgment has to be made by the commission AT THE TIME of each fight. If there is a complaint from a fighter that he complained, but the commission’s rep didn’t do anything (or enough) to address it, then that’s really a separate issue about the competence and/or bias of that particular rep.
Unless you’re aware of a special camera or electronic monitoring equipment that measures microscopic amounts of petroleum jelly or other lubricants. It could be mounted over both corners, and if there is a violation, a big red flashing light and a siren could sound. Immediate and automatic DQ if it goes off. You seem to expect that sort of swift and powerful definitiveness, though.
Bottom line, the rule WAS dealt with during the fight (hence the commission wiping GSP down). If this investigation brings about more specific procedures to address the issue, then great. I would really like to not see this sort of controversy in the future. However, I really don’t see how an investigation is going to result in any retroactive consequences for this particular fight.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
The point that you continue to ignore in every thread on this subject is that the question is not whether there was any vaseline on him — that’s NOT what the rule prohibits. The rule only prohibits “excessive’” grease, and there’s pretty much absolutely nothing to suggest that there was even a significant, let alone excessive, amount involved here.
What is with the haters inability to stop and read the rule?
From Keith Kizer, Nevada State Athletic Commission
Kizer said that the amount of Vaseline he saw applied didn’t seem terribly excessive but that no amount of the substance should have ever been used on the fighter’s body.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Great. Then Kizer agrees that there was no violation of the rule. Case closed, right?
No … because you continue to assert that GSP was cheating and was “greased up.” If no amount should be on the body, then change the rule to say no amount should be on the body. As it stands, Kizer’s comments basically amount to saying up front that a complaint will go nowhere because a) there was no violation of the rule (not excessive vaseline on the body) and b) any that was on there was wiped down as an extra precaution.
I get that you are a huge BJ Penn fan who just can’t accept that he got dominated from the start of that fight to the end and want to desperately find some reason to cast doubt on the result of the fight. But hanging your hat on hyperbole about what happened and ignoring the actual rule upon which the complaint has to be based is not likely to be successful.
You're mistaken
I have stated repeatedly that BJ was owned and got his ass handed to him completely. He lost the fight.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the usage of Vaseline we saw in the fight. We saw it with our own eyes and Greg Jackson confirmed it.
No amount should be applied to the body and I think you would have an overwhelming consensus from the fighters and the officials on that fact.
What I get is that there are people who want to ignore this issue, I will leave it for others to speculate as to why that is.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
No amount should be applied to the body and I think you would have an overwhelming consensus from the fighters and the officials on that fact.
Perhaps. But it’s not a violation of any rule. You can’t just go around punishing people for things that are not in the rules. That’s the problem. And no, Greg Jackson did not confirm what you’ve been saying — you’ve used phrases like “he was greased up” or he was “slathered” with vaseline on his body. What is visible, and what Jackson has confirmed, is that the guy who applied it to his face also rubbed his back and shoulders. Your posts repeatedly seem to characterize the situation as one in which the guy loaded his hands up with vaseline again and then coated GSP’s body with it to make him all shiny or something. That’s not even remotely accurate.
I can appreciate the need for civility, but didn’t Luke just come off calling another blogger “bat shit insane” for making the Bloodyelbow-mmalogic-Zuffa connection?
Well, I don’t moderate Luke’s comments.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
You're a dick.
its hard enough to enforce the rules, trying to follow them too is just too much to ask.
: )
As you can see, I also don’t moderate Nate’s comments. I do moderate mine, though.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
To me it seems..
That BJ and his camp are just as upset with the commission members, because GSP wasn’t sufficiently wiped down, and because BJ and his camp were not notified of what was going on, even though they made a complaint to officials at the fight.
I totally didn’t see your post, but I agree, that is how it seems.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
Since the Guilty/Non-Guilty thing has been argued again and again…how about this?
Nothing is going to hold up for the sheer fact that Kizer (or another member of the NSAC) wiped off the vaseline and let the fight continue. That means that the whole situation was deemed “fixed” so, it then becomes, who let GSP fight like that and say it was ok, rather than did or did he not do it on purpose.
I agree with everyone who is so adamently sugesting that BJ should just let it go.
In fact, we should move the sport backward. Back to a time when wrestlers, as practice, would grease their bodies, and JJ fighters would use their gi’s for choking.
Oh— and we wouldn’t have to worry about those pesky sanctions!
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
I kind of like the view that the fighters should attempt every way for an unfair advantage possible
and then blame the commission guys in the ring for not catching it.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
In a perfect world, GSP and crew would get in trouble, along with the fool that let the fight continue if he truly didn’t have an advantage due to the vaseline that had been there. But the most likely outcome is that some bastard working for the NSAC is gonna get grilled and we won’t see GSP with vaseline anywhere other than his face again.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
That was obviously the worst case scenario, but if they deemed it necessary, then they shouldn’t have let the fight continue.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not seeing any suggestion of a DQ anywhere.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Well, then if GSP is guilty of greasing...
then what is the end result of an investigation, at least as it pertains to this particular fight? If you don’t go back and retroactively DQ the guy, then the only point is using the investigation to change procedures going forward.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps some sort of fine and/or suspension of the corner man and/or GSP?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Fine/Suspension..
and I believe they can go after a percentage of his purse.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 2, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Right, though that would sort of fall under fine.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
You still get back to the original problem...
the regulation prohibits “excessive” Vaseline, and it was the commission’s job to police what was “excessive.” If it wasn’t excessive at the time of the fight (when the commission rep was able to stand right there and look directly at it), then how can an investigation that comes along months later definitively and retroactively say, yes, it was excessive?
And if there was a “crime,” then the victim (Penn) probably won’t take much solace in a fine of GSP or a forward-looking suspension. I compare it to a poor officiating decision in the middle of an NFL game. Yes, the director of officiating can look at the tape the next week and punish the referee retroactively, but the official outcome of the game isn’t altered (think Denver vs. San Diego from just this past season).
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think should they investigate they will determine you’re right. The error was corrected during the fight and thus there is nothing left to do.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Yeah..
it does…but they could (in theory) go after say…his win bonus rather than hand down a generic monetary fine.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 2, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I know. I was just kidding.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
People are suggesting that because they let the fight go on that means that there was no wrong doing. STL is correct, even if he is a name thief.
Fair enough. I agreed with your comment anyway, I was just curious why it was brought up at all when I initially read it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
I understand and to clearify. STL stole the name of my radio show and is now posting under it. The radio show is long since gone and to be fair we stole the name first from an unnamed movie, but If you care not that it is a big deal. just sort of brings back memories.
That's awesome that you had a radio show with that name...
but I had no idea. I’m just a big Zabka fan. I have to say that I think the phrase is squarely within the public domain at this point. If anyone has a trademark/copyright claim on it, I would think it has to be Sony Pictures. Hopefully they don’t come after any of us.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Its a good name. And I don’t think the phrase is restricted. Just don’t try to sell sirts with pat marita on them. You will get nailed to the wall. If you happen to go to the site, watch the videos on the front page. First one is writen and sung by Brett Jones. The second it BJ stealing lunch money from some poor japanise fellow.
+1
Especially on the basis of such a vague regulation. In essence, you’d be putting the sole and absolute discretion over a DQ in the hands of one random guy from the commission who was in each fighter’s corner. That’s not a solution that any rational person would want.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it."
I'm puffing away, Hal.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 2, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
What I truly hope is that instead of going on a witch hunt for GSP, BJ and his team try to fix this situation and keep it from ever happening again. It sounds like BJ knows he got beat, and that he was outclassed, grease or none, so maybe he can turn this into a positive, rather than a bitter showdown.
GSP should give up a percentage of his purse
Just like when fighters miss weight and give up 20% (or whatever it is) of their purse, GSP should do the same for the greasing debacle. One simple way I can see to prevent this in the future is have the ringside doctor (who should be a neutral particpant) apply vaseline to both fighters during the break between rounds. A little more work for him, less headaches later.
by I don't wear mma t-shirts on Feb 2, 2009 6:44 PM EST reply actions
Personally I think even B.J. Penn agrees this didn’t effect the fight outcome, but since Mayhem Miller and several other previous opponents of GSP have complained about this practice, I think it merits investigation by the NSAC. Most importantly, I think it means that Thiago Alves will get a fair chance to take the title from GSP without having to worry that he’ll be greased.
That makes sense, and it seems fair. Whether there was or wasn’t an intention to cheat, any grey area there is concerning this should (hopefully) effecitvely be wiped out.
I still don’t think GSP cheated, but we’ll see what the NSAC says. Personally, trying to follow this whole thing and debating it non stop has given me a headache.
BJ hates cheating
Look at how he reacted to Sherk and The Steroid Story. The thing he kept repeating was, he wants MMA to be based on people testing skills, not who can dope up the most.
I don’t think he’s filing out of spite or cheesing out a victory, but rather, he’s moving on principle. If given the option to change his loss to a W, I’d bet anyone a quarter that he’d turn it down.
There’s still the matter of whether or not anyone is actually guilty of anything.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Please refrain from discussing “the fans of [GSP/BJ]” in your comments.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Please guys, enough with the "greasing" already...
So “greasing” means they rubbed a small amount, on GSPs shoulders and a centralized part of his back? Wow… You can see in the gifs he touches GSP but there is no “slathering” what-so-ever. Why is everybody going overboard up in here? Its insane!
*This is slathering.
*This is not slathering.
That and the fact that they wiped him.
I’m done with this. I’ll just sit by the sidelines and watch it play out. I agree that it wasn’t right and someone should be punished/fined/suspended but I also think it was unintentional and not a factor at all. People coming in here asking for a no contest is just hilarious.
Via [Cage Potato]
Last one, promise lol
On GSP:
Whether you think he was greased up or not, he put a beating on B.J. Penn that can’t be explained away (Vaseline didn’t help him dodge jabs or score takedowns, after all). He showed up in great shape, with a great game plan, and proceeded to do exactly what he said he would. GSP is an absolute monster, and at just 27 years old he’ll dominate the division for the foreseeable future. Good luck, Thiago Alves. You’ll need it.
On Vaseline:
To hear Penn’s trainers talk, you’d think it was a magical substance. Just a dash and you become a guard-passing, ground-and-pounding machine.
Its awesome, because its true! :D
Regarding what is excessive vaseline...
The purpose of applying vaseline to the boney features of the face, is so that the glove can slide off the face after impact so as not to promote tearing of the skin. This was developed to help prevent cutting and therefore help to eliminate premature stoppages.
The purpose of applying vaseline to the body is to make it easier to escape submission attempts.
I think it’s pretty clear that any vaseline on the body is excessive.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
QFT
If any on the body is excessive then the rules need to state that. You aren’t going to hear other sports say “well it’s not written down but everyone plays it this way so we figured you would do the same”.
NSAC needs to revise the rule to explicitly state “no grease anywhere but on the face”.
They will then have to always wipe down the fighters between rounds as well. The Vaseline on the face does not magically stay there when clinching or grappling.
The key to the future of MMA is to break free from the boxing paradigm and to start making rules and regulations that make sense for MMA. I believe that this will happen someday, simply because MMA is such a fucking cool sport, way more cool than boxing — and look how long boxing lasted (some would say that boxing still lives).
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
Kizer from the NSAC
Kizer said that the amount of Vaseline he saw applied didn’t seem terribly excessive but that no amount of the substance should have ever been used on the fighter’s body.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Because....
Bureaucracies are slow, and the rise of MMA has happened extraordinarily quickly.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
The regulating bodies are highly bureaucratic, and fairly arbitrary in their judgements. As a fan of the sport I try to stay away from all that non sense. However, I do think that a good argument can be made for the complete ban of vaseline all together. The use of vaseline on the face, and everybody agrees with this, is to help prevent cuts. But in MMA, cuts are an important part of the game, or else they’d ban elbows. The rules regarding vaseline are nothing more then a carry over from boxing, which, by the way, is true of many rules in MMA, including the 10 point must system, rounds, etc.
I think it’s clear though, that vaseline on the body is not fair for MMA competition, even if the boxing rules don’t expressly ban it — after all, in boxing, it doesn’t matter if a fighter has grease on his body.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
BJ Penn, just posted the incident on his facebook page
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 8:44 PM EST reply actions
The bottom line in all of this bullshit is that Penn was completely and absolutely dominated. Tiny bit of Vaseline or not GSP would have crushed him just the same. I’d be willing to bet that if you offered BJ a rematch he wouldn’t take it…at least not anytime in the near future. GSP overwhelmed BJ in every single aspect of the fight and the small amount of lube that may have been on him had zero effect on the outcome of the fight.
Nobody is claiming that BJ won the fight, or would have won, if this whole debacle wouldn’t have unfolded like it did. As much as BJ is deemed an egomaniac by most fans (thanks to the countdown shows and pre-fight antics), he has a right to be angry. Nowhere does he say that it would have changed the outcome of the fight (and in fact he said just the opposite), but it’s clear from the evidence that the trainer went straight from GSP’s face to his neck/shoulders. If you’ve ever had vaseline rubbed on your face, or even applied it with your hands (dirty jokes aside, please) it doesn’t just wipe right off. Secondly, if I take vaseline out and rub it on a fighters face, there is still enough residue on my fingers to leave noticeable amounts on my arm. Would that help in a fight? Who knows? But it’s still unfair and it’s cheating.
Another thing I want to bring up is Nurse himself. He is a 30 year veteran of combat sports, and his actions are inexcusable. Are you telling me that a veteran like him, who has cornered tons of fights/fighters, just forgot that he wasn’t allowed to wipe his hands that he used to apply vaseline to his fighters face, on the fighters body? I find that hard to believe.
I also noticed something else. And this is entirely just my opinion, and is clearly open for debate. I went back and watched the first Penn/GSP fight. Late in the third round, with about a minute and a half left, Penn employs his high guard/rubber guard on GSP. It works flawlessly. He is able to almost land a gogoplata, in fact. Is it weird that after 3 rounds of hard fighting BJ is able to effectively use his high guard in the first fight, but in the second fight GSP shrugs it off like Penn was a white belt? Could he have had that much of a strength advantage? Maybe, but still, I’d like to see a side-by-side .gif of the first fight where BJ uses the high guard, and the second fight where GSP shrugs it off with ease.
So before people start accusing me of nuthugging, I did pick Penn to win the fight, but I was seriously impressed with GSP in this fight. He won the fight easily and dominated Penn. In no way do I think vaseline helped him win, but it’s not whether he won or lost, it’s whether it’s right or wrong.
I think the rules need to be changed to where an independent cut man (like Stitch) is the only one allowed to apply the vaseline to the fighters between rounds.
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
You have very valid points. I understand rules are rules etc. and I agree there, I just think this has been blown WAY out of proportion. I get on yahoo and and other news websites and the headline read something about UFC champ cheating with a pic. of GSP next to it. Come on, the guy had a phenominal fight, don’t tarnish it with some bullshit that had no impact on the outcome of the fight
If he actually cheated, that’s open for debate, as the actual rule is extremely vague. However, it’s pretty much understood that you don’t wipe vaseline on any part of a fighter besides his face.
The rules are in place for a reason however, and whether he did it on purpose or not, ignorance of the law does not exclude you from the law. If i don’t know it’s illegal to drive and talk on my cell phone in certain parts of the country and I get pulled over, I’m still getting a ticket, regardless if I knew that was a law or not.
I just think a lot of GSP fans are rabid over this issue because they think Penn fans (or people who look at things logically) are trying to discredit the win. That may be the case by some of the people who are claiming for a DQ or NC, but the fact of the matter is, BJ already admitted that GSP was the better man that night. To me, the issue is not about whether BJ would have won, it’s whether or not GSP did something that is against the rules. That’s it. Whether or not he knew about it, is not a valid excuse.
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
Also
The only other person besides Penn I’ve ever actually heard imply he was greasing was Mayhem who is partially retarded and says incredibly stupid shit regularly anyways. Serra is just a douche and i’m not surprised he would say something like that after GSP viciously stomped his ass and he was booed mercilessly by the Canadian fans. I’ve yet to see Hughes come out and claim GSP was greased in their fights and I haven’t seen Fitch or Koscheck say anything of the sort.
Why don’t we wait for somebody with the slightest bit of credibility
That means NOT BJ, Mayhem (who feels he beat Jacare), or Serra
Gimme 1 Round!
I’m sorry, but 3 fighters think that something might be up with GSP greasing, we clearly see his trainer go from his face to his shoulders, Chuck Liddell and Dana White both notice something during the fight, the athletic commission notices as well and takes the vaseline from his corner and towels off GSP, and none of that means anything to you?
And, since you are the ultimate judge of character, who are you to determine the credibility of Serra or Mayhem Miller? Miller wrote his article long before this whole “scandal” was revealed. Did they lose to GSP? Sure, but does that mean they aren’t credible?
And what does Mayhem Miller feeling he won a fight against Jacare have anything to do with GSP’s corner applying vaseline on his shoulders/back?
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
So credibility equals fighters you personally respect? Or does it straight up equal fighters who agree with your opinion?
If Mayhem says he beat Jacare
He’s on another world in his own mind. Serra is a douche and its just his type of personality to lash out after he was embarrassed the second time. BJ is a douchenozzle also. So yah – let me hear somebody thats not a complete whiny baby accuse GSP. FITCH – (I DONT EVEN LIKE HIM BUT KOS) – or god forbid one of the biggest assholes in MMA Hughes. Who really has no love lost for GSP so i’m surprised he hasn’t piled on.
3 guys with no credibility at all have accused him. With BJ it was obvious it happened but it was so minor its ridiculous and could well have been incidental/accidental.
Gimme 1 Round!
Let me get this straight
Everyone on the planet can see Vaseline being applied to GSP’s torso, not just once, not just a “oops my hand slid”, but multiple times and on multiple parts of his body between multiple rounds. And your saying that other people who fought him and actually felt the grease and called it out way before this fight are retarded?
Somebody’s retarded, but it’s not Miller.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Wah some more
that small amount of vaseline has happened to probably every fighter in MMA. If GSP were gonna grease you do it in the locker room before the fight with a whole bunch of grease. If it was gonna be done during the fight anyways to cheat you think there wouldn’t have been some sort of deception involved so it wasn’t blatently obvious he had just touched vaseline
Cry some more BJ fans jesus
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Feb 3, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're just regurgitating Greg Jackson's talking points
You-
If GSP were gonna grease you do it in the locker room before the fight with a whole bunch of grease.
There is no “if”, GSP was greased.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 2:49 AM EST up reply actions
?
Show me the word accidentally anywhere in that post.
And what does “accidentally” have to do with this? Vaseline was rubbed on GSP’s shoulders, chest, upper back between more than one round.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
As I said, you forgot to put it there. As of right now, the only proof that anything was wrong is a video/gif, which does nothing whatsoever to disprove Nurse’s statement that he forgot and it was an accident.
It was done between rounds on more than one occasion, BJ brought it up between round 1 and 2 if I remember correctly. Other fighters have complained during and after fights with GSP. GSP is an awesome guy, losing to him brings no shame, yet we hear this over and over.
Saying you did it “accidentally” doesn’t negate the action.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I mean in basketball… if you drive in and get fowled but still make the shot… it’s still a foul.
If I went to a fight with brass knuckels on and I got my ass kicked I still was cheating…
I think you get my point. Also it’s really hard to say how much vaseline it could take to make a difference, so it has to be treated as, either vaseline makes a difference or it doesn’t. GSP still most likely would have won the fight… but maybe BJ wouldn’t have gotten the mauling he got due to being able to work his higher guard. Just food for thought :)
Why did I get a warning??
I got a warning when I came on but no reason what I got warned for. Am I now obliged to believe this is an issue or I get banned??
I see above people bashing each other and fighters like crazy, and yet I insulted no one – fighters or members…
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