BJ Penn Should Call off Filing a Complaint (Updated)
by Michael Rome on Feb 2, 2009 2:40 PM EST
in MMA News
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I've sat and read MMA news all morning, and I can't help but feel sick over what we're seeing. On Saturday night, BJ Penn was utterly destroyed. He lost in every area of the fight, never sniffed a submission, and was taken apart in every way possible.
The egos involved with the Penn camp are really the driving force behind this story. After having talked so much trash and guaranteed victory, they are hanging onto a final thread to avoid having to talk about why BJ Penn wasn't even on GSP's level as a fighter.
I can't help laughing when I see Valentino claim Penn's strategy was to fight off his back. Is that why he fought the takedown so hard in the first round?
Phil Nurse made an idiotic mistake, but the only duplicity here is on the part of Team Penn, which is attempting to burn down the entire sport to protect Penn's image. Despite his attitude, I've always had a great deal of respect for BJ Penn. If he has any integrity at all, he will call off the people in his camp, and make a direct statement to the press that Georges St. Pierre beat him because he's simply a much better fighter. For a guy that has been around for so long, it's the least he can do.
Watching a number of fighters who've been destroyed by St. Pierre come out and take the opportunity to cast clouds over their losses is equally pathetic. I half expect Jay Hieron to allege St. Pierre used brass knuckles. If Penn and his team decide to actually pursue a formal complaint, Penn will trash his legacy and cement himself as a despised whiner.
Only BJ Penn can decide whether to pour gas on the flames of this non-story, or to put the fire out and move on. The ball is in your court, BJ.
Update: See Luke's post above. BJ Penn accepted the results, even if others don't. He does have the integrity I hoped he had, and I'm glad he's accepting reality instead of fighting it.
Update 2: I just saw there are hundreds of comments, and rather than spend 12 hours responding to all of them, I'll flesh out a little more why this is a non-story. As far as I can tell, there is exactly one NSAC regulation on this topic, NAC 467.598:
The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the commission's representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease of foreign substance to be removed.
In the end, what is the point of a complaint that can't go anywhere? The code does not define "excessive." Further, the code calls for one thing to do when there is excessive grease: have the commissioner's representative remove it. That is what happened, or at least what they tried to do. It strikes me that any "investigation" can't really lead to anything.
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What you see there is a list of people that have gotten their asses beat by GSP and now say ‘oh yeah, he totally cheated against me too I just didn’t say it at the time because I HAVE NO EXPLANATION’
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Mayhem wrote about this before the BJ fight
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
‘at the time’ would be when it actually happened.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Um, he complained about it while the fight was going on
Do you actually read the links that you comment about?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
He did
And the ref said ’he’s fine.’ Then, after the fight, he said nothing. At all. To anyone. He compared it to trying to put toothpaste back into the tube.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
He called it exactly right. You complain and everyone jumps on your head like you’re a whiner.
GSP has been greasing for years, GSP is a great guy but being a great guy doesn’t give you license to cheat.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
And doing a piss poor job of it. You have Phil Nurse doing a rubbing technique taught to him by a guy who MANY of the MMA fighters use. In only one of the gifs does it show him doing it right after rubbing the vaseline on GSP’s face.
Congratulations, you have proved that the rubbing technique is something Phil Nurse has been doing for those fights.
by iiowyn on Feb 2, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Congratulations, you have proved that the rubbing technique is something Phil Nurse has been doing for those fights.
Immediately after using his hands to rub Vaseline on fighters.
by asa on Feb 3, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
I believe GSP is a consummate sportsman and professional.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Some people are making a big deal about the whole GSP/Vasoline incident at UFC 94, and some people don’t seem to care. In most cases the people who don’t care are GSP fans, and vice versa. I’m not going to make any bold statements about greasing or anything like that, all I am saying is that it looks like one of GSP’s corner men has a tendency to rub his shoulders, chest, and back, in between almost every round. And if he is the same guy adding Vaseline to GSP’s face, well, let’s put two-and-two together here.
Rd1 Against Matt Serra
Rd3 Against Jon Fitch
Rd1 Against BJ Penn
Rd3 Against BJ Penn
gifs by smoogy
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/2/744258/georges-st-pierre-and-vase
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
If I could make gif’s I’d make a hundred of this dude doing the same thing to multiple fighters.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Those are great gifs. Unfortunately, not a single one of thems hows any excessive grease being applied anywhere. All they show is the same guy who applies the grease to GSP’s face — and rubs it in thoroughly, then also doing his “routine” on the back, shoulders, and chest.
I believe you’re wrong.
Both those carry about the same weight.
By the way, I don’t actually believe you’re wrong in this case, but there does have to be a serious investigation at this point. This is not, as Rome put it, a non-story.
The athletic commission saw everything. Ev-e-ry-thing. They wiped him down, got the Vaseline out, reprimanded the corner, didn’t call time, didn’t take a point, and remedied it right then and there.
This story is d-e-a-d.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
More like “eve-ry-thing.”
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Why didn’t they file a complaint?
They probably didn’t want to deal with Dana or look like they were making excuses.
So because BJ files a complaint, he’s whinning?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
The more I think
about this the more I am inclined to just drop it. It would ultimately come down to proving intent, not that I am certain one way or the other. What I am certain about is that GSP absolutely drilled Penn until he did not even want to come out for the final round, which to me really shows that Penn is a self absorbed puss who rather than get finished or actually hear the unanimous decision announced decided to quit.
I'm glad I'm not the only one
BJ needs to come out and put this all to rest, congratulate Georges on a stellar performance, apologize to his fans, promise to work harder (or say you’re taking some time off to decide your future), tell Kenny Florian you’ll kick his ass and publicly reprimand everyone who’s trying to make this about anything but you losing a fight.
Only he can do it. Good call, Rome.
Penn may
indeed call of his “goons” (lol) but I seriously do not expect to hear anytime soon that GSP beat him down.
Mayhem:
Greasy bastard, I thought. Of course I yelled to the ref, “Hey! He is greased up!” but much like anyone else watching me get pounded, he didn’t give a damn, and replied with “He’s ok!” Followed by another smash to the face. Yeah, ok for HIM, but I’m taking a beating over here and can’t hold onto the bastard.
I believe the ref. And the lack of any kind of bitching after the fight.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Mayhem
Did I ever bitch about it afterwards? Nope. Why? What’s the point? Would it put the toothpaste back in the tube? No. As far as everyone saw, I lost the fight, fair and square. Would it have made a difference if he wasn’t greased up? Maybe, but honestly probably not. He was the better man that night, plain and simple. He bent the rules, not broke them, and when you get away with it, it isn’t called cheating.
Fightlinker.com
Sean Sherk has also made a few comments in the past about Georges St Pierre greasing during their fight, and BJ Penn’s camp says Matt Serra also complained. I suppose now we need to wait and see what some of Georges’ other opponents do. Personally, I’m interested to hear what Matt Hughes, Jon Fitch and Josh Koscheck have to say.
rec’d – but add a WAMMA logo to the helmets
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Sure... Who Cares if one of the BIGGEST STARS IN MMA
is accused of cheating by his counterparts… before and after this fight…. Lets just let it go, bc BJ got his ass whooped…
I Still Am a Fan of Penn
but this whole vaseline thing is totally ridiculous. I agree that he should call off the goons, and let it rest. GSP was the better man that night, and that’s it.
I like Penn
Because he is the guy who would burn down the whole sport over his ego. Screw what people write about him. It was GSP camps fault for the vaseline, like a fight press your advantage and make them pay for the mistake. The athletic commissioned stepped in during the fight because it was an issue. Following the rules apply, even when you are winning.
It should be pointed out that the other side of this argument is ridiculous. I used “burn down the whole sport” because it was in the articles piece.
If Penn petitions the fight over use of vaseline by GSP’s corner it isn’t going to ruin the sport!!! It’s a false argument used to get fencing leaning people to turn the other cheek.
Luke, what’s up putting a halt to fighter bashing all of a sudden? Not saying it should be allowed, I am just wondering?
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
It’s just that it has gotten out of hand.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
BJ hasn't said much...
However.. the commission saw it and said somethin… chuck saw it… dana saw it… bj’s corner saw it… serra warned bj’s team about iit… hughes has mentioned it also… mayhem also… sherk also….
I heard Obama got a Daily Briefing about it, and Putin too.I heard the CIA had a general warning out, and the MMA world was on Orange alert.
I heard BJ Penn fans were the saddest, most pathetic people ever to root for a fighter and make excuses when he gets his ass beat.
by mythbuster on Feb 2, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He also got out of the hospital the day before, don’tcha know.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
This article is borderline fighter bashing…
All I will say is… if our sport cannot be transparant… we need not have a sport. If staying hush hush about certain issues keeps our sport “safe” from the media, but lends to potential cheating, there’s no point.
by MicahW on Feb 2, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
We praised the UFC for their transparency when it did independent testing in England and suspended Chris Leben for performance enhancing drugs.
We fought and fought for “Standgate” to be investigated to find out if there was wrong doing.
GSP fan or Penn fan, we need to hope this gets investigated so it doesn’t happen again. We know for a fact it did happen. But if infractions like this go unchecked, it will become more popular to do. Regardless of how effective it may or may not be.
I don’t know anyone that’s saying it shouldn’t be investigated. I’ve heard BJ should accept the loss as being independent from any advantage gained – he has. I’ve heard GSP’s corner should be in trouble with the UFC – he is, to what extent we don’t know. And I’ve heard the NSAC should investigate – I agree, though I don’t know what they didn’t see on Saturday that they’ll see in the course of an investigation.
Problems?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not calling for a massive investigation where punishments are thrown down left and right, but an official investigation that merely shows it will not be tolerated is really all I’m after.
As to “I don’t know anyone that’s saying it shouldn’t be investigated” … thats what Michael Rome is stating in the article we are commenting on.
Rome said BJ shouldn't file a complaint
I don’t see where he says there should be no investigation.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
“BJ Penn Should Call off Filing a Complaint”
The athletic commission would do an investigation if a complaint is filed. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the deal with “Standgate” was that it wasn’t going to be investigated unless a formal complaint was filed, and I believe that is policy for NSAC aswell. I could be wrong on that though, it’s merely how i recall it.
I bet the NSAC investigates anyway because their guy had to make an issue of it and wipe GSP down. If they don’t, then they should.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
ate Sunday, Penn’s representatives decided against filing the complaint, which has already been drawn up by the Hawaiian’s family attorney, first thing Monday, a reaction perhaps to some initial communication between the camps. Distance from the fight will also yield breathing room to make a decision on the rest of his career. But considering how his fight transpired, and with the apparent controversy over tactics in St. Pierre’s corner, Valentino believes Penn could have a change of heart.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 3:02 PM EST reply actions
Good
This is a start. Now do all the stuff I said earlier.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
explain
there is no question that vaseline on a fighter will help him avoid submissions. if the vaseline was on gsp’s back in between the first and second rounds (it was), then it got on bj’s legs, thus making his guard easier to pass and his bottom submissions ineffective, even a relatively small amount of vaseline would affect bj negatively…how exactly is this a non issue? Get beyond fandom or haterism and just think logically here, there is no way that vaseline would have NO effect on bj. i’m neither a bj “nuthugger”, nor a gsp “hater”…but if this is a non issue then i need to be educated
by the real romano on Feb 2, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
just to state my point further
if the vaseline had no effect, then why is it fucking illegal? why can’t the fighters just rub themselves down in vaseline before every fight?
by the real romano on Feb 2, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
If Sherk gets asked, he is the last person that should talk, he got caught doing steroids
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 3:05 PM EST reply actions
I’m amazed how effortlessly some people have bought into the UFC-sponsored line of reasoning that Phil Nurse is solely responsible. If there was greasing going on, GSP is most certainly not off the hook. It sounds like Rome subscribes to the “cheating wouldn’t have made a difference” argument.
Hopefully the pro MMA writers will continue to dig into this because it is a very serious situation.
What is there to dig in to regarding this fight?
What needs to be brought to the athletic commission’s attention that they don’t already know?
And why did BJ decide against filing a complaint?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
The rules about Vaseline, who can use it and how it is monitored need to be reviewed, and most importantly, enforced agressively. I mean, from cageside reports, Keith Kizer and Chuck Liddell both were flipping over GSP getting his back rubbed after the first round. To suggest this is a “non-story” means that you’re choosing to ignore it.
‘Non-story’ to me means the fight result stands. As long as that doesn’t get fucked with, further refinements in corner work and fairness are always appreciated.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Ok then, so the whole “StandGate” thing was a non-story too. They didn’t overturn Petruzelli’s win, so who cares?
Competitive advantage versus paid to stand? That’s a reach.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Paid to stand to give someone a competitive advantage? O … k.
by asa on Feb 3, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
I like what Ivan says here-
They are two different situations, but the stand-up agreement in the fight between Seth Petruzelli and Kimbo Slice didn’t affect the outcome of that fight because Petruzelli won by knockout anyway in 14 seconds. Were people saying after that fight, “It didn’t affect the outcome of the fight, so it’s a non-issue that we should all stop talking about”? Of course not, and if they were, that would have been an equally ridiculous argument.
http://www.ivansblog.com/2009/02/mixed-martial-arts-detailed-summary-of.html
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 3, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
They really should be reviewed, and not just for this. The Vaseline on put on the fighter’s face is not going to magically stay there, it will end up smeared all over both fighters as they clinch and grapple on the ground. That to me is a bigger issue than how much the tiny amount of stuff that ended up on GSP’s back affected the fight. Note I am not talking about intent, just on how much it affected the fight.
That is my argument,
Nurse is getting thrown to the wolves on this one to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
It’s not out of BJ hatred or UFC nuthuggery, right?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I like or liked GSP
tremendously & way more than BJ, so no my opinions and observations have nothing to do with either.
I really want someone to do some looking into it. Then maybe logic and common sense would shut everyone up. Right now there is one gif that shows any wrongdoing on Phil Nurse’s part, and the explanation given by GSP, Greg Jackson, and Nurse himself as to why it happens is very logical to me. I would like people who can get better footage of what happened in GSP’s fights to take a look at it, because right now people are jumping on all those other gifs which show absolutely nothing wrong being done.
Why was Chuck jumping up and down and almost losing it?
Why was the commission in the ring yelling and screaming at the corner? Why did Dana say Vaseline was rubbed on GSP?
Did they all get together with Mayhem in 2005 and plot out this whole thing?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Why did the commission let the fight go on?
Why didn’t they deduct a point? Why didn’t they call timeout and have someone really look at how slippery the son of a bitch was?
Because THEY DIDN’T DEEM ANY OF THOSE THINGS NECESSARY AFTER WITNESSING EVERYTHING THAT OCCURRED.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Or, one could argue, they didn’t want to tarnish the “biggest fight in UFC history” by stopping it or disqualifying St. Pierre. Who knows what would’ve happened if Matt Arroyo was greasing instead?
UFC/NSAC conspiracy theories could be applied to any fight on most UFC cards.
Wait, that must be part of the appeal.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just throwing the possibility out there. It was a very high-pressure situation. NSAC officials at the time decided that giving GSP a half-assed wipedown between rounds would suffice, but anyone who has ever fought says vaseline stays on you like a bad rash.
This is after round 3. Why Nurse is still even allowed to be touching GSP on the shoulders when the greasing allegations started after round 1 is puzzling
Maybe the corner guy actually wipes him down well off-camera, but it looked pretty half-assed from what was shown.
I seem to remember Jackson being the one to wipe Vaseline on GSP’s face. That could have been Karo though. Any chance of you checking that smoogy?
well, that’s the problem. We don’t know how much vaseline was really there and how much the official wiped off…
But he does. The official saw the problem and fixed it.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
… and perhaps because there wasn’t necessarily even a violation of a rule. It could very well be that they saw something that could have been a problem and concluded it wasn’t.
It’s shocking to me that everyone is jumping directly to concluding first that there was definitely a violation of the rule and then trying to assess blame — instead of first determining whether there was even a violation of the rule at all.
They noticed that Phil Nurse went and did his routine after putting Vaseline on GSP’s face. They took care of the matter right then and there. The question now is about intent.
Vaseline doesn’t wipe away, it take some serious effort with soap and water to remove that shit.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
According to the NSAC rules, the commission head there did what he was supposed to and took care of the situation. So blame the NSAC head if you are gonna blame anyone.
So GSP's camp spreads petroleum jelly all over his upper torso
and it’s the NSAC’s fault? WTF?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
He could’ve stopped the fight or taken a point or taken time to get him wiped down. It’s his job to watch the corner and enforce the rules. I think he did a fine job.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
You think he did a fine job?
Well then, case closed.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, he must be in on the ‘screw BJ Penn’ fix – along with every fast food restaurant worker in Kona.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
If BJ Penn Has a Shred of Integrity, He Will Call off Filing a Complaint
Lets also forget about steroids in baseball or in any sport for that matter. How can BJ’s integrity be at stake when GSP is the one being accused of cheating? BJ’s accusation alone won’t amount to shit, but it will get an investigation going and to be sure, an investigation should be done.
by szucconi on Feb 2, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
An investigation is going to be done no matter what, by the UFC if no one else, and if for no other reason than to tell Jackson behind closed doors that he better watch his ass in the future.
Oh, and for the recond. I think the title of this article is reprehensible. It is like standgate all over again. Some people want to close there eyes and wish it away. You need to be like a pitbull on this shit and see whats up. If its nothing then great, but why not look?
by szucconi on Feb 2, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting contrast
1) Bloodyelbow declares EliteXC/Petruzelli guilty before an investigation can be done, and after they’ve been “cleared” by the SAC.
2) Bloodyelbow declares GSP innocent because BJ Penn is a sore loser and Phil Nurse is the spawn of satan.
Contrast fail
GSP didn’t say ‘I greased up.’
Petruzelli said ‘I got paid to stand.’
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it is BE declaring GSP innocent. Just Rome, when is a jounalist by the loosest definition, and that is the nicest way I can put it. Kid Nate disagrees, I would like to see how the other staff comes down on the issue.
I personally don’t care.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
You promised not to post drunk anymore
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I have a question.
Earlier there was a post where the rule was against EXCESSIVE greasing, which implies some “reasonable” greasing is ok.
And Miller said GSP bent the rule, not broke it.
So is what he did actually a violation of a rule, or is it just frowned upon?
Option 3
A convenient excuse when a superior fighter whups your ass
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
So exactly how many
& which fighters making this accusation would it take for you to give it any credence? I am not sure about any of this, but I am not willing to call all of these guys sore losers & claim GSP’s complete innocence in all of this.
You have to make that accusation at the time
No retroactive ‘oh he did that to me too I just didn’t say anything at the time after the fight’ bullshit.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
& no one would claim they were sore losers if they complained GSP was greasy after beating them right? Do you really think that four or five MMA professionals all saying the exact same thing are just bitches or sore losers?
It sure looks better than doing it three plus years after the fact.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Not really,
sometimes it takes one person making an accusation to make others think they will be taken seriously.
No, the fight was in 2005. He said something to the ref then, then kept quiet till now.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
He is bringing it up 3 years later
when there is obvious proof and an admission from the GSP camp. Mayhem wrote about this incident, and didn’t name names because of the reaction he anticipated from people like you. Now he sees another fighter facing the same tactics, it’s probably time for the GSP camp to stop wiping him down with Vaseeline.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
So much wrong in this blog
The title: If fighter A does something I don’t like, then he’s a ‘insert negative adjective’ person.
Example: If Michael Rome posts on Bloody Elbow then he’s never been laid.
Next, …‘Penn should shut up’.?..he’s not talking about it. Everyone one else is, Dana White included. Every fight website out there. Other fighters, the commision, us….
Mayhem isnt a reliable source?! Based on what? Cuz he does silly ring entrances? He’s an articulate, highly respected, disciplened fighter, with unquestioned character thus far.
by Headkick on Feb 2, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
FACEPALM
Rome, I tried – and you’re a smart man for not wading into the comments.
I’m going to go burn one. This… disappoints me.
I can’t believe that Rome wrote this article.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Feb 2, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What I don’t get is this — the commission complained during the fight.
Dana White said the guy should never corner again.
How is B.J. being a whiny bitch again?
GSP’s corner cheated, got caught and now B.J. is getting shit when he hasn’t even filed a complaint.
by Kid Nate on Feb 2, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
He needs to come out and say the better man won.
What I don’t get is – the commission let the fight go on, certified the winner and didn’t punish either side.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Let see how long mmalogic can lay low. So far he’s been writing a couple of side comments that don’t pertain to anything topical.
It is still mmalogic. He works for Zuffa, and just might have been a bit busy this past week for some odd reason. I hear something happened on Saturday.
Hasn't stopped him before
Maybe we need to flush him out.
How about posting the headline, “WAMMA Suspends GSP from Rankings over Vaseline Scandal”
Why would he give any credence to someone obviously trolling for him?
by iiowyn on Feb 2, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the insight Nate.
This is a hot story, and like any other scandals, it will definitely be analyzed and discussed.
I agree, it is not only BJ, but Sherk, Mayhem, Serra, and perhaps others with complains.
There should be some interviews with Kos, Fitch, and Hughes as well.
Forget Hughes, he’d finger GSP in a murder investigation if he could.
If Kos and Fitch say he beat me fair and square, what say you?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Look at the tape and ban the cornerman – do you advocate invalidating the man’s entire career?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Are you advocating his cornerman
has been doing this all on his own & are willing to destroy him alone? That is all that I am saying, Nurse is not doing this on his own.
I’ve answered a lot of questions. Answer one: do you think Georges St Pierre is a deliberate, premeditating cheater?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
At this point I am not
willing to say he is not knowingly “bending the rules” regarding applying vaseline to his body. How could I & how could you say definitely not when this same issue was raised in 2005?
That is a scary thought and I don’t think anyone wants that, but if he used Vaseline on his body in all those fights it should just be ignored because he’s a good fighter?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I guess their first hand knowledge is worthless, so is anyone in the first couple of rows that saw it. Maybe we can get some one who has never participated or seen a MMA fight involving GSP to tell us what happened.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yes!
Intent would implicate the fighter, lack thereof just the cornermen. And I guarantee GSP will keep fucking people up even with a new cornerman.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
No one, at least not me is
saying GSP did not beat down Penn & beat down tons of other fighters. What I am saying is that I am unwilling to completely disregard four other MMA pros (one of which wrote this in 2005) saying this exact same thing. It may be bending the rules to some of you, but any altering of the rules at all in this manner is very disturbing to me.
Funny how when it’s steroids involved – it’s cut and dry “he did it”. No questions asked.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
That might be because the rule pretty much says “you can’t use any steroids.” It doesn’t say you can’t use any vaseline. Hence one is much more cut/dry than the other — or should be, anyway.
Yes, you’re right, but the vaseline is to be only applied to the face, correct? So, if it is applied to other areas, what does that mean?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Now we need a tapped conversation? I’m sure at some point he had to notice vaseline all over him. There is a good case suggesting this has been going on for awhile at GSP corner.
Of course lets frame the argument to intent now. Intent can never be proven, ask any legislature.
Yep – nobody ever gets convicted of premeditation. That’s why there were absolutely no first degree murder convictions, um, ever?
Why would a legislature need to prove intent? While passing a bill? Maybe you were going for ‘prosecutor’ there.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Intent is the difference between and accident and cheating, right now NOTHING implies intent. So to say they were cheating at this point from a contributor to this site is a bad thing.
Accidental cheating is still cheating. Just ask anyone who has ever been suspended for testing positive for a banned substance he didn’t realize was on the list or in the product he was taking.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Maybe it is just semantics then. Whenever I see cheating, I think intent. Otherwise it is accidentally breaking the rules. Nurse definitely broke the rules, and the issue about that was taken care of in the cage.
No, he didn’t “definitely” break the rules. The issue should be “did he break the rules” and then, if so, what was his intent.
Is intent questioned when fighters pop positive for drugs and steroids?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
It does – and I don’t think GSP’s a cheater. Sorry.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
2. The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed.
That is the rule he broke. “Excessive use” implies that there is reasonable use of grease. They did not ban grease, just limited it.
So by my reading GSP probably bent the rule but didn’t break it, since we’re now arguing over what excessive means. Which is probably what Miller meant when he said GSP bent the rules but didn’t break them.
by toxic on Feb 2, 2009 3:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
.. don’t let the actual wording of the rules get in the way of everyone’s belief about what the rules are or should be.
by Kierkegaard on Feb 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ha.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Feb 2, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
And the Commission’s rep let the fight go on. You want to get mad at someone, get mad at him – but I think the man did his job.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
People bitch all the time about BJ Penn fans, but GSP fans are clearly just as stubborn and delusional.
by FRANKIE on Feb 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Michael Rome has lost all credibility in my book. How can this be a non issue if you expect fireworks from a formal complaint? Obviously you want to turn a blind eye to a serious issue because it isn’t a favorable outcome to our sport. But it is an issue that must be addressed.
If Michael Rome had any integrity he would retract this post an issue a formal apology to the MMA community.
by Dropkick434 on Feb 2, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
BJ Penn SHOULD drop the complaint. But at the same time, GSP, Nurse, and Jackson should be investigated, and if warranted, reprimanded.
This is a big deal. I for one think they should probably stop using vaseline altogether. Its far too much of a slippery slope, literally.
Because following the complain would cause even more damage.
There isn’t a “good” option available. BJ should drop the charges, and the NSAC should investigate anyway. Its probably the best balance of protecting the sport while also upholding its integrity.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Damage to who? GSP? MMA? How do we know the greasing didn’t cause BJ to take more damage than he would have? So who would a complaint be unfair against?
Damage to the sport. The longer this uproar lasts and the bigger it gets, the worse for the sport. If Penn actually files the complaint, it could last for a long time.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Was it bad for the NFL when the patriots were caught cheating? Should we really be such big pussies that we let people get away with cheating because it might cause some bad publicity?
It was.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
So we should put our heads in the sand because we don’t think the sport could survive the bad press of a fighter cheating? So instead BloodyElbow questions BJs integrity when this issue is 100% GSP.
Not so much Bloody Elbow as Michael Rome. We didn’t all sign some open letter.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 2, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well he is a staff writer and you did post his article which as someone put is borderline fighter bashing on your front page. That qualifies as Bloody Elbow.
But he is a representative of Bloody Elbow.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Straightforward doublespeak. The issue is not what you guys say it is, the issue is how it is perceived. Individuals have their opinions, but you all represent the site in the eye of the public.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Opinions expressed by Michael Rome do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow. ;-)
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
See, if that was posted at the bottom of this article, it would be a bit more defensible. :)
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the public’s cross to bear. Rome has his opinion, he represents himself. We took a look at his post and if we thought it needed adjustment for decorum purposes, we have him change it. That’s how it goes for everyone. But if people want to think Rome or Brent or Nate or whoever is the torch bearer for BE, I have to admit I don’t really care.
I don’t write to make sure I drown out someone else’s opinion. I write because I want to write.
by Luke Thomas on Feb 2, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The public has it so rough, trying to discern what BE actually is. It’s hard work.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
How is "the NSAC should investigate anyway. " unclear?
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Because I thought your point was ridiculous. BJ shouldn’t file a complaint but you hope their is an investigation anyway? You want the same result whether the athletic commission or BJ initiate the investigation.
And the difference is basically over PR and how big the scandal gets, but that matters.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
But during EliteXC fiasco, we all agreed that the best way to protect the sport is to perform a full on investigation?
EliteXC was a sideshow organization. For better or worse, the UFC is the premier organization and GSP one of the premier fighters.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Double standards are the way of the world.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 2, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, read
He said the NSAC should investigate anyway.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Read again what I said. I said a FULL investigation, which includes Penn appealing if he felt any wrongdoing. At worse, it will get denied or proven false. I don’t get why BJ can’t appeal if he wants to.
An appeal would mean that he felt he would’ve won the fight were it not for the Vaseline.
I don’t believe that, and I don’t think he does, either.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I am not sure you understand the issue here. No one has denied that GSP’s camp spread petroleum jelly all over his upper torso, are you advocating that it should be ignored?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
No. An investigation should happen.
Guy above me said Penn should be able to appeal. Now, if that fact isn’t in question, what would he have to appeal other than the outcome?
The vaseline was not a determining factor in the outcome of the fight.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, now that I mostly agree with, but did pot affect the outcome of diaz/gomi? no. Diaz was punished for breaking the rules. If they could find indisputable evidence that he was greased then they might not care how bad he was beating that ass or how hard he would have beat that ass without grease. They might change it to a NC as a punishment.
Look, GSP was the better fighter and beat BJ's ass up, down and sideways
Without Vaseline would the outcome have been the same? Probably, but that’s not why there should not be repercussions. Rule was broken, a rule that is there because it can give a fighter an unfair advantage.
How does that work- I cheat, but I won so let’s move on?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing for him to drop – he hasn’t filed it and probably won’t.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 2, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Update: See Luke's post above. BJ Penn accepted the results, even if others don't.
Rome, if you’re going to write such a hateful article calling out BJ, then write an update to stick it to the readers who disagree with you… why not write a new update to commend BJ on his new stance.
Personally, I think its pathetic the way you have personally handled yourself. I do believe everyone has a right to there opinion, but to call another person’s integrity into question so the sport doesnt get tarnished is downright irresponsible.
by MicahW on Feb 2, 2009 3:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
"Update: See Luke’s post above. BJ Penn accepted the results, even if others don’t. He does have the integrity I hoped he had, and I’m glad he’s accepting reality instead of fighting it. "
Thank god he met your high standards of professional integrity.
by Dropkick434 on Feb 2, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
in other words...
stay quiet, and act like you’re correct?
The fact that you would rather protect a fighter that has been accused of cheating, and instead spew false judgment of Penn’s character before he decides for himself if he wants to make a formal complaint is shocking to me… I’ve read the blog for a while, posting very little and found most of you to be very rational individuals, and probably the best community of all the mma sites… I applauded the stance against Standgate, and felt that the staff did a good job of balancing judgment of fighters accused of steroid use… so I don’t understand why GSP is immune to any criticism, when he is being accused by former champions, and veterans of MMA. Just because he may be the best fighter in the world? ridiculous.
by Loot on Feb 2, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
rec'd
as one of them said earlier, double standards are part of life.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
The simple fact is that people will always look for a way to explain how a great competitor and a champion like GSP can exist. It sounds silly, but it’s true.
“How can he be that good?! What?! He had some Vaseline on him?!? THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. And LOOK, all his other opponents are saying so too!” Or “GSP is SO OVERRATED and we have proof now because he got knocked out by Matt Serra!!” These things will always follow him now, kept alive by the people that dislike him for whatever reason.
Same thing with Anderson Silva. He has an off night against Cote and everyone and their dog is looking for some way to explain it. Christ, people still talk about Chonan’s heel hook on him like it’s relevant somehow.
If anyone thinks that the NSAC wouldn’t have stopped the fight if something had happened that warranted it, they’re crazy. They dealt with it right then and there and continued the fight. Someone from GSP’s corner rubs his shoulders and chest every fight, this is nothing new. How could the amount of Vaseline left on his fingers after rubbing it on his eyebrows and face possibly make a difference? The answer is simple. It didn’t.
GSP dominated BJ from start to finish and his supporters have found some shred of an explanation, be it false or not. And because it’s being pushed so hard by them, it probably won’t go away anytime soon. To me though(and hopefully most people), the bottom line will always be that GSP proved that he is without a doubt one of the most dominant fighters to ever step in the cage. Call me a GSP nuthugger or what have you, but it doesn’t change the situation any.
Anderson wasn't accused of cheating...
People find watever reasons they can to discredit great champs… but I haven’t heard of random complaints of cheating to warrant someone’s dominance… Why all of a sudden would folks just start pretending that GSP cheats? for shits and giggles? Even when these same fighters on record saying that GSP was the better man on that occassion?
“He couldn’t have beaten me!! He had to have been doing something to get the better of me!” Or “Hey wait a minute, now that I think about it, GSP was a little greased…”
Not to mention the simple fact that GSP didn’t cheat. I take Rome’s word about the code and how anybody could come to the conclusion that the Vaseline use was excessive is ridiculous. According to how it’s worded is that it can even be deemed excessive when used on the face alone. Seeing as he didn’t take anymore off the back of his hand before rubbing his shoulders, how could it have been possibly excessive?
People need to start being objective and read the rules and figure out what constitutes cheating and what doesn’t before screaming for someone to have their head cut off. Good work Rome.
Nobody has said that the Vaseline is what has made GSP a great fighter
It’s a huge deal if this was standard procedure for his fights. If someone takes steroids but makes the argument that “.. it doesn’t really matter because I’m the better fighter and would still win even if I didn’t take them” They would be laughed out of the business, even if true.
UPDATE
"–An update on the Vaseline scandal involving Georges St. Pierre and his corner from Saturday night’s match. As of press time, B.J. Penn’s camp had not filed a complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission. According to Keith Kizer, Executive Director of the Nevada State Athletic Commission, what happened was one of the commission inspectors saw Phil Nurse, as he rubbed Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back after the first round, touch his back without wiping the Vaseline off. Several commissioners were aware as the second round went on, and were watching closely after the second round, where they saw a person they identified as Greg Jackson, do the same thing. If was between rounds two and three that the commotion took place with the commission reacting immediately and they wiped off St. Pierre’s back. They also wiped off St. Pierre’s back again after round three. Penn himself told an inspector on his side of the ring after round two that he thought St. Pierre was greased. Kizer said both Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White after the match and questioned whether Nurse or Jackson should ever be allowed to corner again. White, after the show, said that he thought the guy who did it, without mentioning any names, should never be allowed to corner again. Kizer said it was not gobs of Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back, but the back was touched after the Vaseline was rubbed on his face, and before the hands were wiped clean with a towel."
Amazing
I wonder if Dana meant to include Greg Jackson in his call for a ban?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
So his back was “touched” after his face was rubbed and before the hands were wiped clean.
So there was likely no violation of rule at all and this has been grossly blown out of proportion?
Why would the commission be attempting to wipe away something that did not break the rules?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
To avoid a problem? To avoid a possible conspiracy? To ensure that it is not a rules violation in the first place? To err on the side of caution? To try to avoid a huge blow-up and potential scandal when BJ inevitably tries to use it as an excuse for the way he was manhandled in the “biggest mma fight” in history?
What rule do you think was so clearly violated?
Show me where BJ has tried to use this as an excuse?
GSP smears petroleum jelly over his chest, shoulders and back and BJ get’s attacked?
I have heard of partisan behavior, but this is getting out of hand.
Why are people defending this practice? Why are five fighters being dragged through the mud?
Because GSP is such a good guy? What is it?
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Nope. Because absolutely nobody has been able to state a case of what rule was violated yet.
And BJ, taking the “high road” and acknowledging that he got beaten by the better fighter, is apparently moving forward with filing a complaint. That’ll be a complaint with Kizer’s group — the same guy who you keep quoting as saying there was not an excessive amount of vaseline (the only thing prohibited by the rule) and that they wiped him down as a precaution (the only remedy provided by the rule). So that complaint will result in …. not much, really.
I’m not saying the rule shouldn’t be changed. It should. It should be made much, much clearer. But to say that this issue has been blown way out of proportion is not partisan behavior and not dragging any of those othe fighters through the mud. It’s simply looking at the actual rule, arguing that there does not appear to be any violation, and then arguing for a different avenue of preventing the problem in the future.
As far as I can tell, there are just as many (if not more) people on BJ Penn’s side of this issue who are throwing all the hyperbole about “greasing” up “smearing” it all over his body and arguing that there was “clearly” a violation of some rule that nobody has yet been able to show anyone. It’s pretty arguable that the only one being “dragged through the mud” is GSP.
It comes down to this. No Fighter should ever have to worry about their opponent trying to grease themselves in a fight. The fact that this is tolerable to anyone is a shock to me. And the fact a writer I formally respected on my favorite site takes the side that the victim in this case has no integrity because he wants his opponent to fight by the same rules is absolutely reprehensible. Victim might be over dramatic but I don’t understand why this has all been about BJ when it sounds like Chuck Liddell had a bigger part in starting the controversy and we wouldn’t even be talking about this if GSP’s team hadn’t rubbed vaseline all over his shoulders and back.
by Dropkick434 on Feb 2, 2009 5:21 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I know this post has been recommended repeatedly and has been endorsed by other authors on this site. But let me ask this: You suggest that GSP should have been required to fight by the same rules as BJ Penn in this fight. How was he not required to fight by the same rules? What rule did GSP violate? How is absolutely reprehensible to suggest that BJ going forward with a formal complaint against GSP with apparently no rule upon which to base the complaint is the wrong tactic? Why isn’t it reprehensible to characterize what happened here as “greasing” as if there were huge gobs of vaseline being intentionally smeared all over GSP? Or to characterize what happened as his team “rubb[ing] vaseline all over his shoulders and back” and suggesting that they put vaseline on their hands and then applied directly to the shoulders and back, instead of simply noting that the same guy who had rubbed it on his face then did this routine and may have incidentally transferred some to the shoulders and back? It’s equally partisan to go that route, except that it garners favor with BJ Penn fans.
Look, maybe the rule should be changed. Maybe something in this fight somehow impacted BJ Penn’s ability to pull a submission out of nowhere and turn the fight around. But nobody has yet been able to make the case that any rule was violated, and Kizer’s own responses seem to pretty clearly suggest that the rule was not violated. If that’s all true, what will a formal complaint against GSP accomplish that could not be accomplished by other, more appropriate avenues? All this does is allow BJ to somehow undermine the quality of GSP’s win, allows him and his fans to put some kind of an asterisk on this loss in their own minds, and potentially clouds GSP’s reputation and record. All without there being an actual rule violation to point to.
To me that’s reprehensible. And frankly, I find it reprehensible that your comment here was endorsed by another author of this site without any consideration for how equally partisan it was on the other side of the issue.. Just my opinion, of course.
The rule states you are not allowed to use excessive grease on the face or body. Excessive could mean a glob on the eyebrow or ANY grease put on the body. Any grease on the body is excessive. Dana White and others have plainly said it is illegal to put any vaseline on the body and what the cornerman did was wrong no matter how you want to slice. Even if it wasn’t intentional, ignorance is no excuse and the rule was broken. As for the “rubbing vaseline all over the shoulders and back” well, just look at the footage that is exactly what the corner man did. A little vaseline can go a long ways, especially when sweaty, and there was obviously some vaseline being applied to the body. And, as I said at the beginning, any vaseline applied to the body is excessive. That is the rule GSP broke. Get over it, GSP broke a rule.
As for the equally partisian view…. Ummm, read this article I responded to.
Update 2 speaks to the fact that we obviously need some review or reformation of these vaseline rules, so that the integrity of the contest is not compromised. So, again, it is ignorant and ridiculous to call this a “non-story”.
as far as the rules go in their current state they do render the this as a non-story. Grease is allowed as long as it’s no excessive. It’s up to the NSAC to determine if what was being applied was considered as excessive.
any time a rule comes under question there are hundreds of comments on it, it is a fact.
- grabbing the fence
- needs to a downed opponent
- weight class restrictions
- etc etc.
You have to put in that qualifier- “any time a rule comes under question”
That’s why this is a story, because GSP’s corner got caught red-handed.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Ummm....You might want to check over at Sports Ilustrated:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/mma/02/02/bj.penn.complaint/index.html
A complaint is being filed by Penn’s people now.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Penn’s trainer, Rudy Valentino, told SI.com by text message that Penn has decided to move forth in filing a formal complaint with the Nevada State Athletic Commission alleging Georges St. Pierre’s corner knowingly and illegally used Vaseline on his body to gain an unfair advantage Saturday night.
by dualdiagnosis on Feb 2, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
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