More on the Georges St. Pierre Vaseline Controversy
by Kid Nate on Feb 2, 2009 9:59 AM EST
in MMA Events
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More on the story. Steve Cofield has the best summary and the image above:
After a dominating victory over B.J. Penn at UFC 94, Georges St. Pierre is clearly the better fighter. GSP left no doubt. And yet now there is, thanks to one of his cornermen, Phil Nurse. It's pretty clear by watching the video that Nurse had some Vaseline on his hands when he rubbed St. Pierre's shoulders, back and chest between the first and second rounds.
Why is that a big deal in mixed martial arts? It's significant because of all the grappling and maneuvering that takes place on the ground. St. Pierre was on top of Penn in the second round and the Hawaiian tried several times to shift his legs up to work for a triangle choke or an armbar. Grip and some friction is huge in these cases and a slippery fighter would make it more difficult to lock on one of those holds. Above you can see, Nurse apply Vaseline to GSP's face, then get more Vaseline, then rub his shoulders, arms and back.
...
(NSAC executive director Keith Kizer) bolted into the cage when he saw Nurse doing the same thing between the second and third rounds. Cage Writer spoke with Kizer after the fight and he was still steaming, saying that the rubbing of the back with Vaseline was completely inappropriate. But he was unsure if it had been done between the first and second.
...
Ultimately, did the use of the Vaseline win the fight for St. Pierre? No. But Penn's camp does have a right to complain.
Here's Dana White's take for those who think this is merely the B.J. Penn camp whining:
..."some Vaseline on a guy's back didn't change the outcome of that fight, but you don't do it," and said the blame should fall on the cornerman responsible and not GSP.
"If a guy was intentionally putting Vaseline on a guy's back, he should never corner a mixed martial arts fight again."
And Greg Jackson's defense? The old witch doctor told us to do it explanation, from MMA Weekly:
Jackson spoke to MMAWeekly.com on Sunday afternoon and said the misunderstanding arose after Phil Nurse, one of St. Pierre’s cornermen, executed a ritual taught by a member of St. Pierre’s team, a “witch doctor” named Steven Friend.
“So in between rounds, (Friend) had this little drill that you do – and Phil Nurse is the one who knows how to do it – he showed Phil, and this is what Georges wanted, so we did that,” Jackson said. “But this is why we were doing it. He rubbed your back and tapped your chest; I don’t know exactly how it works. But anyways, what that’s supposed to do is get your energy in line, or motivated or whatever. So in between rounds, we had Phil Nurse do that.”
...
“The controversy came because Phil Nurse also was putting Vasoline on Georges’ eyebrows,” Jackson elaborated. “In between rounds, you always want to put on Vasoline on (a fighter’s face). So Phil Nurse put all the Vasoline on his face, so his hands might have had a miniscule amount left over from that, when he went around the side and rubbed a little point on his back, and tapped on his chest.
“At that point, somebody in the audience thought we were greasing George down, and ran over and told the commission that we were greasing his body down. The commission came in and said ‘you can’t grease him down,’ which didn’t work. They said ‘you’re putting Vasoline on his back,’ and Phil’s like, ‘oh, there might be a little on my fingers, but it wasn’t intentional at all, and of course they wiped it right off and it was gone, so it wasn’t a factor in the fight at all.”
Jackson doesn't mention that "somebody in the audience" was apparently Chuck Liddell. Hardly an uninformed spectator. *
My take on all this gibes with Dana White. I don't think it decided the match, but it shouldn't be allowed and Phil Nurse should be fined and lose his cornering license for it if it can be shown that there is a pattern in multiple fights.
*NOTE: Chuck was complaining after the fight. Its unconfirmed that he was the person Jackson is referring to.
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Indeed!
Actually this should get looked at. The last time I was in the mount position and I used vaseline, it gave me a decided advantage!
Apparently chuck spends more time worrying about greasing than getting KTFO.
Anyway, I think Jackson’s explanation is strange to say the least but I don’t think it’s an issue. The commission clearly wiped the vaseline off with a towell.
they barely wiped him down...
if you look at the video they reached out with a towell and grazed him… there was no clearly wiping it off at all.
Just because the
camera pulled away doesn’t mean the guy stopped wiping or didn’t go back in and wipe a bit more. How could you even know that unless you were there? Also, why in the fuck would they not tell the ref, hey hold on let me thoroughly wipe this stuff off?
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
the point is the guy did something illegal, not that the consequences were minimized by the commission’s actions. besides a towel wipe doesn’t remove vaseline. that takes soap and hot water.
by Kid Nate on Feb 2, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
GSP is something else
DANA white for some reason protects the white man geony brown… GSP VS PENN 3 will most likely happen… FUCK GSP… Can’t believe he would allow this…
N1SHOGUNRUAFAN
Lol at GSP Penn III…
After that beatdown Penn will NEVER fight GSP again. Bank on it.
by lbk on Feb 2, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“GSP is something else”
O_o
Dude, look whos talking…
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Even joe rogan made a comment about how slick GSP was… he assumed it was due to sweat… but to say it didn’t effect the outcome is nuts… sure he won… sure he dominated…. but had he not been greased, had he not been as slick…. would bj have been able to work a submission? no one knows…. were the odds in his favor that he would have been able to? probably not, but it was still a possibility…. we are talking about the guard of BJ penn, and he wasn’t able to effectively use it because of the extra slickness.
um are you kidding me?
BJ lost because he gassed..again. In fact, he gassed quite early when the outcome was still in question. BJ got bet on his feet. BJ NEVER once had top position on GSP to where the vaseline would have afected his ability to sub him. When GSP was in BJ’s guard, not once did he put himself even close to danger in BJ’s guard.
This is a non issue. BJ got the snot beat out of him in the fight.
BJ’s wasn’t even attempting Traingles in that fight. He was so beaten down. Did you catch a look at his facial expressions? He looked like a shocked wounded animal. That dude wasn’t finishing anyone that fight.
the issue isn’t whether or not that decided the fight outcome, its whether or not there was an attempt to cheat.
Your argument is the equivilant of saying that “since fighter x lost anyway he shouldn’t be suspended for using steroids.”
I agree with that statement.
I also find it disturbing that people are jumping on Nurse as if he was solely responsible for this. These corners all operate on the same gameplan & do not go off the reservation with their own ideas. Do I think GSP purposely had this done and/or had knowledge/approval of it? Probably. I find it hard to believe that such a thing would happen with any fighter not knowing.
I don’t think that the amount of vaseline on the back of Nurse’s hand was enough to really “grease” BJ’s back and chest especially after using the majority of it on GSP’s face. I understand that vaseline goes a long way but I don’t believe it was an intentional attempt to cheat.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
you clearly don't train...
the vaseline on the back wouldn’t hurt at all if your in the top position…. because if you’re on the top, that means their back is on the mat…. if their arms were greased, that’d be one thing…
the problem with the vaseline being on the back means BJ wasn’t able to work his high guard and rubber guard… even if he wasn’t able to submit him, he would have taken much less damage by being able to control the posture of GSP. Look how little damage he took in round one when he was able to work his high guard…. then you look at the next rounds and gsp was able to posture out of the high guard and do damage. BJ repeatedly brought his legs up and they just slid down everytime.
Well
They (NSAC) need to hurry the fuck up and do whatever they are gonna do. This is getting fucking annoying! It wasnt intentional, it wasnt a lot but it shouldnt have happened. Suspend him for 6 months, whatever, but it didn’t affect the outcome of the fight one bit.
Dont forget in this sport it only takes BJ a split second to get a triangle or an arm bar. and yes he got beat bad. but like in many fights the person getiing beat catches the one pummeling them, thats why we watch and penn has the ability to catch someone at anytime unless they are lubed up. so the outcome may have been the same. but we will never know.
I think it should be ruled a NC, which is a shame because GSP didn’t need to cheat to win and before the GSP nuthugging union jumps on my case, it was the cornerman’s fault but GSP hired that corner man therefor he should be responsible for the action of said cornerman.
I also think it is unfair to say GSP is clearly a better fighter than BJ. I think BJ should get more respect for being able to move up a weightclass to fight. That would be like me saying Fedor is clearly a better fighter than GSP because he would dominate GSP if they fought.
Go apply some Vaseline on your sweaty body...
and try to wipe it off with a towel with one or two swipes of the towel (i saw a gif of an apparent member of the commission doing such). It doesn’t work that easy….
My problem with this, is that as time passes more and more is coming out about it… Dana saw it… Chuck saw it (and for u to say he shouldn’t be worried is showing your bias here)… the commission seemed to be really pissed about it… And this may not be an isolated incident…
I’ve also heard that the vaseline was applied after round 1, and after round 2… But that the commission didn’t notice it until after the second… If this is the case, and GSP was greasy after the first round, it does take away from certain aspects of the fight i.e. BJ’s TDD in the second round (involves BJ holding onto GSP’s upper body in the clinch) and then his high gaurd/rubber gaurd…. Not only do u have GSP greasy and sweaty on his upper back, but BJ’s legs would become just as greasy, and slippery…
IMO, GSP won the fight, and probably would have won regadless… But to see Penn’s gaurd be so ineffective for the first time, and then have all the greasing speculation, makes it difficult to just brush off
I don’t think it decided the match, but it shouldn’t be allowed and Phil Nurse should be fined and lose his cornering license for it if it can be shown that there is a pattern in multiple fights.
Absolutely. At best, it adversely affected BJ’s ability to work the rubber guard, which may have in the absolute best-case scenario led to a submission, but the chances of that on their own, then combined with BJ’s history finishing MMA fights with an omoplata or gogoplata (i.e. never) indicates that he more likely would just have prolonged the outcome we ended up with a bit longer. But if that fight goes to a decision, all other things in the fight being equal, does anyone really think less of GSP? I’d reckon they would not.
Of course BJ has every right to protest, but let’s not kid ourselves that a bit of vasoline provided superior conditioning for GSP or dominant wrestling and passing ability.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I’m not so sure about that. The vast majority of passing GSP used involve knee cut across passes. Slickness on GSP’s back does probably make things easier, but the real friction is between the outside of GSP’s legs and the inside of Penn’s.
What about in the clinch?
And even if GSP’s technique didn’t require him to grease, it still puts BJ at a disadvantage due to his legs now being greased up.
so the vaseline didn't help with the pass...
but it helped him get in the posture to be able to pass. The first thing with a pass is usually posturing… had bj been able to hold him with the high guard, he wouldn’t have been able to pass as effectively.
..also, I think we’d all agree St. Pierre was not so covered in Vaseline as to give him a 15 or so pound weight advantage, which plays such a huge factor in these types of matches. That was a calculated risk BJ took by moving back up; one I suspect he will choose not to take again in the future.
Which is a shame on some level, but it’s also for the best on another level. But I see these things with a glass half full.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Vaseline gets all over the fighters anyway from the massive amount comparatively that is put on their faces to protects them from cuts. Do people think that stays there when they are grappling and clinching? Did anyone else notice how much was on BJ’s face before the fight? He looked like someone from those naughty video’s ends up looking like in the end…
Vasoline?
What about the half bottle of water he poured on his head inbetween rounds? That doesn’t add to his slipperyness at all? Penn’s only complaining because he never got to hit GSP in the face enough to get some of THAT vasoline on his gloves. :P
"Men like me are like comets, destined to be consumed by lighting up their century"
- Napolean
It seems the argument from some people
here is that we should have GSP vs BJ III to see if maybe BJ could catch him in a sub? That would be the absolute only way BJ won that fight, period.
It's never going to happen.
At least I hope not anyway. It would be pointless. BJ belongs at Lightweight where hes ripped and fast. Where the heck is BJ at anyway? Whats his take on it? Is he too embarrased right now or what? Everybody loses. He shouldn’t have mothed off like he did and maybe it wouldn’t be this bad for him.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly my point.
I have no interest in seeing this matchup a third time in hopes that BJ actually shows up in shape or can catch GSP in a sub. GSP was not going to lose that fight period & at this point in his career no one in that weight class is going to really challenge him.
I dont think Penn v GSP III is even necessary, clearly GSP is too much physically for BJ to handle, BJ should stay at 155. With that said the fight should still be ruled a NC because Team GSP cheated. It’s a shame such a dominant performance is now shrouded in controversy.
by Buddha Brown on Feb 2, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Do you guys not understand...
that the mouthing off is to sell the fight? You guys need to learn how to work. BJ does the same thing every fight, talk a lot of shit, make it seem like he has something personal against the fighter he’s fighting so people will buy the PPV and he in turn will make more money. I swear some people are so stupid/gullible.
No need for
name calling buddy. :)
I know exactly what you’re saying but the fact that he probably thought he would be able to back it up and instead got demolished probably has something to do with him not speaking to the public yet. I swear some people love to jump to conclusions.
He should take his butt to WWE if he really enjoys “selling a fight” that much.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
No need for name calling? Aren’t you the one with the personal vendetta against Penn? All you have been doing is condoning cheating because you don’t want to believe GSP’s dominate victory may have been helped by nefarious means. GSP probably would have won, but don’t be so ignorant and biased that you can’t see the significance of cheating no matter the outcome.
I don’t believe for a second GSP didn’t know what was going on. Just like I didn’t believe Janet Jackson had a wardrobe malfunction. You can’t just declare you didn’t cheat if video evidence obviously shows you did.
My Problem is...
Not that GSP won… it’s that BJ was already at a disadvantage in so many ways i.e. Cardio, Size, and Strength… When somehow you make it more difficult for him to defend himself, and he gets the beating of his life it’s fucked up. He shouldn’t have his defense impaired in any way… What if he suffered serious injury due to the fact that he couldn’t defend himself? That shit is not cool.
"BJ was already at a disadvantage of cardio, size & strength?"
BJ wanted this fight & knew all of these facts in advance. I agree the vaseline BS may have slowed down his sub attempts but he was not going to win that fight in any other manner except for a sub.
Those disadvantages
Can be prepared for, and were obvious to BJ since he was moving up… Being unable to protect yourself despite repeated attempts can cause fatigue in the same way GSP wanted to tire BJ’s arms so he couldn’t box… Simple and plain, GSP’s biggest offense came in the third and fourth rds… after BJ was already a bit fatigued, and apparently hindered from defending himself fully…
BJ’s camp has not negated GSP’s win… Valentino even states that GSP was the better man that night, but greasing is not acceptable, and it’s starting to become more obvious that this isn’t some fluke…
I’ve read various claims that many of Jackson’s figthers were accused in the past… diego, and huerta notably… And insidefighting has an article that states Hughes and Serra felt GSP may have been slick vs. them as well.
I agree with you for
the most part, but even mentioning the facts of GSP being bigger & stronger should not happen. If you accept a fight with a larger man you do not say anything about those facts afterward. Read my other entries, I believe we are on the same page.
How about we have them fight again...
and we let BJ put a little Vasoline on his back, chest, and shoulders between two of the rounds.
I’m just pointing out how ridiculous this whole thing is if its really over a dumb meditation ritual. Dana should slap Nurse and then fire him.
by EazyEismydad on Feb 2, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
why don't we have anderson silva
wear HUGE boxing gloves for his next fight…. that’s so retarded… bj’s game is his BJJ.
Nate, where is said that Chuck was the spectator?
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 10:42 AM EST reply actions
The Chuck scene from the vlog was at the end of the fight
We don’t know if that’s the “audience member” incident, which ostensibly took place as the alleged greasing was happening, i.e. either after round 1, or round 2.
Not conclusive proof, but...
I’ve received some emails from readers who were there telling me that while this was going on Chuck Liddell was flipping out at cageside. Supposedly he saw what was going on and made a scene. One reader wrote, “I thought someone spit on Chuck. He was going nuts.”
by Chris Nelson on Feb 2, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I think that when
other fighters are upset about this it gains even more merit as a valid complaint. From White’s vlog it looked like Mir was very upset as well. I am not saying this changed the fight, but given the fact a BJJ guy was the opponent it does not look good. What I do not buy at all is Greg Jackson saying he does not know exactly what this is, that it was some sort of witch doctor crap. I do not think there is anything that happens in the corner of one of his fighters that he is not completely aware of. Nurse is apparently going to be the scapegoat for all of the people involved. Again, I never though BJ was going to win & I definitely thought GSP owned him no matter what.
What will people say
if Lesnar pulls this when he faces Mir in a few months? Will his cornerman take the blame or will people blame him?
I seriously doubt that GSP was giving a damn about what Phil Nurse was rubbing on him, he just knew he was rubbing. I understand the corner all works together as one unit…but maybe Nurse screwed up? Maybe Nurse didn’t realize the extent of what he was doing? Of course, maybe GSP is a dirty cheater and should get fined.
Right now, I think that fining the party is a sufficient punishment, and we won’t see it happen again.
And people, quit lying to yourselves about how vaseline on his back didn’t help, I noticed that GSP easily powered through BJ’s Rubber Gaurd…and vaseline definately could have played a factor.
For the record, I think GSP would have done exactly what he did with or without anything rubbed on him…but they just need to make sure this dosen’t happen again.
But to not punish the fighter
or even hold him responsible is absurd. How are we only blaming one cornerman who is employed by both Greg Jackson & GSP? He operates their pre-determined gameplan, period.
The Party?
You mean GSP & Greg Jackson, right? Lets not diminish this by putting “the party” on it. This happened with approval from both of the top guys in this debate. Are we blaming the corner of that boxer who had plaster on his hand wraps or the boxer/trainer themselves?
Thats the thing, the whole issue is of Approval. You don’t know if it was accidental, purposeful, or whatever. When your in front of 14,000 plus people, your not exactly thinking calmly, Nurse might have just thought “vaseline…vaseline…oh that back thing!…rub rub…”
Or like I said, maybe there was some dirty shit going on. We won’t know for sure until a statement is released.
All I ask is not to act like you know exactly what happened, none of us do, so let’s quit being so sure of ourselves.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
If they did it to cheat i doubt in their statement they will say that. we will get a staement more like “i did not inhale” or “i cannot confirm or deny” a statement is meaningless they are ready said it was a witch doctor routine.
You do not think that witch doctor
remark covers their ass pretty well & makes it sound like one person messed up? You are free to believe whatever you like but that witch doctor remark does not hold water for me.
Not the statement I was talking about, I meant the NSAC’s or UFC’s statement on the situation…
you know…the one that matters? lol
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Because we are
sure that a cornerman in an MMA fight does not know that would be illegal & is an honest mistake right? lol
Come on man. These guys do this for a living & know exactly what can & cannot be done.
GSP vs Liddel
Make it happen! Chuck must pay!
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Feb 2, 2009 11:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Pfft
Chuck couldn’t handle the riddum.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think GSP wins the fight no matter what, but as Cofield pointed out, Penn and other fighters who don’t like GSP will put an asterick on this dominant performance.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 11:43 AM EST reply actions
I thought he would
win easily as well. But greasing when you face a dangerous BJJ guy is cheating no matter how you dissect it. And it definitely does place an Asterisk by it.
Heres the thing, I don’t know any fighter that really dosen’t like GSP. In Lidell’s book, GSP is one of his favorite fighters. I think Chuck was concerned, and every other fighter should be.
But I don’t think there will be a witch hunt over it.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Good point,.
I believe that to be true. When GSP’s colleagues are outraged about this it really says something about the action itself.
LOL at these Penn fans using this as an excuse.
Nurse made a mistake, and at best rubbed a miniscule amount of residual vaseline on a tiny area on GSP’s back while trying to help his breathing between rounds.
This wasn’t a case of vaseline being liberally applied to GSP’s back and rubbed in.
Is that why he wiped his hand again to get more vasoline after he applied it to his face. a miniscule amount of residule you have lost you mind
Yes, miniscule and it was an accident which in no way contributed to GSP’s complete tooling of BJ Penn.
Penn fans are so pathetically desperate. There’s always an excuse.
I personally
am way more of a fan of GSP, but I hate to even hear about this. When other fighters actually notice this going on & are so infuriated about it occurring they speak up you know it is not good.
I hate BJ but in any fight someone can get caught even if they are dominating and GSP tried to eliminate getting caught by greasing. which is obviously very affective when figting against BJJ
To be fair...
if you watch the video he wipes his face some more before his shoulders. The pictures are a little misleading without that shot in between.
This shit needs to be settled the right way. Dana White should make it right with a free show on spike. GSP vs Penn III: The Final Chapter. Since Penn does not care of taking the belt, make it a non-title match. This need happen
by The Bronzeville Bully on Feb 2, 2009 11:47 AM EST reply actions
After re-watching the fight, it did look like BJ’s high guard was slipping down everytime, and after about 5 or 6 attempts, it seemed like he gave up and that’s when the gassing began.
I can agree on that. The NSAC needs to investigate. GSP is by far my favorite fighter, but I want to know what happened and whatever actions need to take place need to take place, quickly.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
The post earlier makes it seem like the rules aren’t very specific or in this case that it was NSAC’s job to ensure that the corner didn’t use excessive grease.
The way that is written could make it very hard to punish someone for greasing, but I don’t think it will be a factor.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
It’s more like saying a less than 1/4 syringe of steroids won’t matter, because it’s not even one shot.
Care to come up with a better metaphor? lol
And for your info…1/4 a syringe of steroids would make little to no difference…in case that was unclear…lol
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/josh_gross/02/02/penn-st-pierre-post-fight/1.html
according to gross it wasn’t an isolated incident… BJ noticed he was slick, and told Rudy.. Rudy told the NSAC, and they witnessed it happen between rounds 1-2, and rounds 2-3… then ran in the ring, and took the vaseline.
Thats for all the “it couldn’t have been that much, it didn’t make a difference” excuses..
In that case something needs to be done.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Two points:
1. Greg Jackson’s explanation is obviously backed up by the tape/stills.
2. Chuck Liddell is a douche. Admittedly, this is dog-bites-man. Just further reinforcement. I wonder if vaseline is what keeps him from keeping his hands up.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Feb 2, 2009 12:03 PM EST reply actions
So instead of
trying to defend GSP you have to talk shit about Chuck? lol
Apparently you are convinced by the witch doctor story.
my bad
apologies
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Feb 2, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt that, I think in the end everyone wants to see the issue confronted and settled, and definately not letting it happen again.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Good thing they’re not the head of any athletic commissions. lol
The situation is in good hands, I’m sure Dana and Kizer are figuring everything out and by this evening we’ll have some sort of official statement from them.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
did it affect the fight? yes, BJ couldnt get high guard in round two
did it change the outcome of the fight? probably not.
is it illegal?: yes
did GSP and his corner know it was illegal and was it pre-meditated?: yes, given the " a witch doctor told us to do it" response
They were referring to the rubbing, not the vaseline included.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
THANK YOU!
Finally someone with a reasonable logical mind. People are saying it must not have been cheating because of that ridiculous witch doctor story.
Being logical is great, but don’t change their story…
The story is Phil was rubbing those areas because of (insert their story), but the vaseline was unintentional. And I’ve actually heard of the rubbing technique being done before…gotta align that Chi guys! lol
The story is silly, but don’t change it to fit your argument.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I am not changing my argument.
But I do not want to hear anyone tell me the cornerman responsible for rubbing vaseline on a fighter unintentionally rubbed it anywhere except his face. These guys are certified/pd professionals who know exactly what they are allowed to rub vaseline on & they know what the repurcussions would be.
Read what I said again. I said don’t change the story.
Keep the argument you have, it’s good. lol
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Same here, I was very satisfied with the show, but this is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Note to all, greaser’s grease before the fight, not during the fight with two cameras watching over your shoulder and the commision all watching on.
Thats another thing, I personally don’t think it was intentional because WHO IN THEIR MIND would be dumb enough to do it out right in the middle of the fight.
Still, something needs to happen in this situation. (Thats my disclaimer, a ton of people won’t see what I’ve been saying and claim “nuthuggery” lol.)
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
But apparently
nothing much will happen if you are caught doing this. That would definitely seem to be an acceptable risk for a corner given the readiness of the witch doctor story to explain any mysterious rubbing.
I wouldn’t say the story was “ready” look at how Jackson talked about it. You could tell it was almost embarrasing to talk about the whole “energy” thing. lol
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. I was at the fight. What is more likely? 1. GSP’s corner gambling with his future (even though it is Las Vegas) deliberately greasing him up with vaseline to gain an even bigger advantage in a fight he was already winning, with dozens of cameras, the commission, 14000+ fans watching live and millions of others watching on PPV. or 2. GSP showed up with much better cardio, had the superior gameplan (see his post fight interviews), has similar skills to BJ but is much larger and stronger and dominated a man who showed up with less than adequate conditioning. I see a proud man (and many of his fans)trying to save face after he was humbled in the biggest fight of his career.
You make some good points,
but I liken this to a baseball player going to the plate in the World Series with a corked bat. One would never think someone would risk it, but if it is a minimal risk of getting caught that can be explained by ignorance you would be surprised how many people would take that chance.
Agreed 100%
It happened, it was unintentional. GSP was not “greasing”. Nurse should receive some type of punishment.
I have a real problem
with Nurse being the only person mentioned re possible penalties/fines. That is like only charging Barry Bonds trainer.
If anything, fine GSP, and let GSP take Nurse’s lunchmoney if he thinks it’s his fault.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
one more thing i thought of.
i definitely saw BJ in round two not unable to get high guard. if the vaseline was present on GSP back it was now on BJ’s inner legs….which could explain GSP passing guard so easily. just pull your legs right out.
not nut hugging here. GSP was the better man and won. but if i was penn i’d feel pretty sour today.
If i was Penn i would have one hell of a headache myself. And a bad taste of crow in my mouth. Oh and the amount of Vaseline that could have ended up on GSP’s back from this incident is minuscule compared to the amount slathered on the faces of the fighters. Which gets spread all over them as they clinch and work on the ground.
“If we were going to cheat we wouldn’t rub him with Vaseline in front of the Nevada State Athletic Commission and cameras all over,” he quipped. “That wouldn’t make any sense at all. Give me some credit. If I was going to cheat, I’d be a little smarter than that.”
-Greg Jackson
Of course
they are not going to lube up GSP’s entire body, but doing it in this manner leaves the entire thing open to interpretation & looks a lot less malicious.
When otherwise, no one would have been seeing anything…so I don’t think it was a, “lets put vaseline on his back to nullify BJ’s BJJ” type of thing.
But ignorance is no excuse. Someone’s balls are gonna get busted.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly I do not know,
but I hesitate to believe it was just an honest mistake in a sport where such a mistake has a huge potential impact. Again, I have no doubt GSP would still drill BJ if they were both dry, subs happen so fast we never know.
I find it funny how we are on opposite sides of the argument, but we both share the belief that GSP would stomp BJ if they had a rematch. lol
I don’t care in the end, I just want the situation to get settled.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I just want
zero controversy in our fights. This should never have come up. I hate BJ’s shit talking but I respect him as a fighter, this just gives him something else to bitch about for the next year. I thought coming in that GSP could & likely would maul BJ, but the appearance of any greasing when you face a BJJ guy is VERY BAD!
Even More Important, IMO...
Is that every fighter deserves to protect themselves to the best of their ability, and I’m not 100 percent certain that BJ was able to do such. He’s a tough dude, but he took a lot of shots, because he couldn’t keep Georges in his guard… I think it’s possible that failing to close guard, or keep rubber guard could have discouraged him, as much as it fatigued him, and caused him to get beat up on the ground.
I agree, but he couldn’t even get Georges back into his gaurd after he got into side controll…where the back being greasey dosen’t matter at all.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
His legs at this point...
Would already be greasy, and it’s possible the BJ was spent trying to apply a defensive/offensive strategy that was inapplicable.
It’s also possible BJ got his ass handed to him by the better fighter. But we won’t know that now because of the grease incident.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, this whole thing is open to interpretation. It appears there are people who don’t think any intentional cheating was going on, and there are others who see otherwise. You can’t condemn GSP or Greg Jackson based on speculation. You need proof beyond a resonable doubt. You would want the same fair treatment if the roles were reversed.
At this point, it does appear someone messed up. I’m curious to see if the NSAC fully pursues this and what they come up with. Because there is a world of difference when it comes to one’s intent to cheat, and one’s lack of judgement. Personally, I don’t think GSP or Greg Jackson actually planned to cheat. They came up with a great game plan, and I’m sure cheating wasn’t part of the equation.
I see where the blame is coming from though. GSP/Jackson/Nurse all had their roles. Nurse needed to grease the face and do the pressure point technique. He fucked it up.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely. Before anyone drops the hammer, there has to be certainty, not just speculation.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I just do not like
the explanation that Nurse was performing a voodoo ritual apparently incorrectly w/vaseline.
Wether you like it or not, they could find out that that is actually exactly what happened, and is completely possible. If this is the case, they’ll revoke Nurse’s liscense and that will be the end of it.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Ultimately,
there is no real way to determine intent in this regard. Unless the athletic commission finds it written on their gameplan, Nurse sadly is going to get fizzucked.
Well, somebody has to take the heat if it comes to that, but if something shady was going on, I think GSP will gladly “loan” nurse some money.
But the best way to look at this is, it won’t happen again after this.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Most likely.
Damn if this doesn’t just piss me off. I’m a fan of both guys, and before the fight, I was looking for a good, clean fight. I was on such a high after GSP’s win, then just moments later this comes out and my first reaction was, “Oh shit.” Because regardless of the outcome, even if it’s Nurse getting the shit can, it gives a black eye to the fight, and to the sport, and it just pisses me off.
Would have been more witty if that was a reply to the witch doctor statement…but well played my friend.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Does Nurse do alot of Boxing cornering?
While I’m not trying to make any excuses, I don’t know what to think about this yet, his routine in the corner looked very familiar and I think it looks like how a cornerman prepares a boxer between rounds.
Right now I’m just pissed that after all the hype and drama that there will be room to disbute the outcome of the fight. If it was simple to do, and they were in the same weight class, I would call for a rematch…but what that would do to the LW and WW title pictures is unacceptable at this point.
Muay Thai, I have thought of this same thing.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Chuck in Montreal
this adds an interesting dynamic to the Iceman fighting in Cananda in April…
It doesnt matter.....
If GPS greased up and then knocked BJ out with the first punch, it is still against the rules and ultimately hurts the integrity of the fighter. Certainly someone of his skill though doesnt need the grease and I have a hard time believing it was intentional.
I say, let them fight again. I personally would really enjoy watching BJ get beat up again.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
As much as I enjoyed watching BJ get humbled, Thiago Alves and Kenny Florian need their shots, and one night of what I think would be another one sided fight is not worth it.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
I would like to think BJ knows better than to ask for another fight. He got beat. Too bad they didn’t get him on MMA Lives post show to ask him about it. All this could be semi-squashed if he said it wasn’t a big deal. Im guessing he wouldnt say that though since they filed a complaint. Who knows.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
My guess
is that BJ will not ask for another fight but I do not expect him to come out & say GSP beat him either. lol
Yeah. I doubt BJ will say GSP beat him. BJ is the LAST fighter you want to cheat against, considering the blasting he gave Sherk during the prefight interviews of their title fight. BJ can talk, and if he gets a hold of something, he won’t let go. It will be interesting to see what he has to say about this in the future.
They decided not to file the complaint, it says so on Gross’s SI write up.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
That is probably a good idea
as true he may have eventually caught a sub, he was not winning that fight any other way. I suspect we will not hear anything else from BJ about GSP.
I don’t think BJ will be having much to say at all, I mean, after all the “Quitter” talk he was spewing, then his corner stopping the fight…I think he went home with his tail between his legs.
I think BJ would have thrown a Tito-esque fit if he thought it was a big deal.
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 2, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks
Its still like they’re saying we arent filing it…yet. =/
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 2, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think given time away from this fight, Penn will realize he still has a lot to offer, and will continue at LW. He just needs some time off.
Not directly stated but implied and the other guys stories haven’t really been documented yet but this could make a huge difference in the story. It’s definatly not an accident if they have been doing it for years. Still people around here seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions (on both sides), it looks like there will be an investigation that will bring some light to this but right now it’s just a lot of speculation.
The guy isn’t a witch doctor he is a chiropractor, that does make a real difference to the story.
I know what you’re thinking: What the fuck is up with this ‘witch doctor’ bullshit? It’s kinda too bad Greg Jackson said that, because it’s pretty much made everyone think GSP keeps company with a Papa Shango lookalike. The truth is a lot less interesting: Steven Friend is a chiropractor and the boyfriend of GSP manager Shari. He’s about as much of a witch doctor as Mauricio Rua is a shogun. It’s just a nickname, although I’m not about to defend his largely bullshit profession.
Friend is a well known dude in MMA circles, and he got his nickname because he does a ton of strange stuff to ‘revitalize your body’ and fix your ‘energy flows’. No one is really able to explain how the shit works, but everyone who goes to him swears by him, hence the nickname. A ton of MMA guys including Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, Diego Sanchez, and Karo Parisyan. Even Dana and the Fertittas go to the ‘Witch Doctor’.
Should Paul Ruebens have known better??
Thats pee wee herman in case ayone doesn’t know.
Cycling provides the answer for this problem.
I’m not an MMA fighter, I watch MMA but I know almost nothing about it except it’s fun to watch. I DO however know a lot about sports cheating, as I’m a competitive cyclist. It seems like now MMA has a doping/cheating problem for the first time, and the MMA community is going through a lot of the problems that cycling did when EPO first hit. Here’s a quick guide on how to get people to continue to take a sport seriously when cheating occurs:
Problem: “It’s the trainer’s fault”
Symptom: Cheating substance is claimed to be applied by trainer/coach etc.
Solution: Hold cheating athlete accountable by banning him for 2 years and stripping all victories. This ensures other cheaters won’t hire fall guys.
Problem: “The cheater would have won anyway”
Symptom: Arguments are made that cheating wouldn’t have influenced the outcome.
Solution: Don’t listen to stupid people! Cheating rules are about intent & ethics, not outcome. Hold cheater accountable by banning him for 2 years and stripping all victories.
Problem: “The test is inconclusive”
Symptom: Claims are made that the testing methodology is imperfect.
Solution: Cycling is still fighting this one. Obviously this time the HD video evidence is indisputable, but certainly a “greasing test” should be standardized by UFC, with a standardized penalty. In cycling we’ve found stripping all victories and a multi-year suspension does the trick.
Hope this helps! FWIW cycling’s cheating policies were informed by the Olympics, which can also serve as a model for UFC. Obviously GSP is a cheater and should be banned from the sport for a while. Thanks for reading.
by justpostingonce on Feb 2, 2009 6:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Witch doctors aren't new
“Friend is a well known dude in MMA circles, and he got his nickname because he does a ton of strange stuff to ‘revitalize your body’ and fix your ‘energy flows’. No one is really able to explain how the shit works, but everyone who goes to him swears by him, hence the nickname.”
There’s a guy like this in cycling too, his name is Dr. Ferrari.
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