Uno to UFC = First Shot in New UFC-Japan War?
by smoogy on Feb 19, 2009 10:37 AM EST
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PrintThis Fan Post was promoted to the front page by Nick Thomas.
If this report from MMAJunkie is true, it appears Caol Uno is about to walk away from DREAM and sign a contract with the UFC. Aside from Denis Kang, who is a reclamation project, to put it nicely, this is the first high profile acquisition of talent from Fighting Entertainment Group's MMA promotion by Zuffa. Though not an "A" level star for them like CroCop or Kid Yamamoto, he is a complimentary draw who is popular with the DREAM fans.
Speaking of the fans, take a look at the proposed UFC 99 card:
| B.J. Penn vs. Kenny Florian Wanderlei Silva vs. Rich Franklin Mirko CroCop vs. TBA Caol Uno vs. Spencer Fisher |
B.J. Penn fought in the early iterations of K-1's MMA events when the brand was still hot, plus Wanderlei Silva and CroCop were two of the biggest PRIDE stars for half a decade. This card would appeal more to Japanese fans than Americans. And considering Uno's history with Penn and the original UFC Lightweight title, not to mention his experience advantage over every other lightweight under the Zuffa umbrella, I wouldn't be shocked if Penn-Uno III is on the minds of Dana White and Joe Silva.
I believe the UFC is now making the first tangible steps on a path back to hosting live events in Japan, starting as soon as the second half of this year.
First of all, Dana gave this piece of news to the Japanese press in September of 2008:
UFC will be taking its show to Japan from the summer of next year.
It was announced they will be holding a show in the Phillipines next spring, and from there, UFC Japan will make its return. The last UFC event in Japan was in December of 2000.
Dana White said that if the summer Japan show is a success, they plan to hold a regular series of events in Japan.
Now, obviously that show in the Phillipines hasn't materialized yet, but UFC typically is a little behind schedule on the foreign events, so I still think a show in Japan can happen in 2009. When asked about their plans after UFC 94, White seemed pretty determined to make it happen:
It has been over eight years since the UFC last visited the "Land of the Rising Sun," but UFC President Dana White made it very clear at the UFC 94 post-event press conference that Japan is still very much a part of the organization's future.
"The Japanese market has always been important to me," White said. "It's a very, very, very tough place to navigate and do business. But, [expletive] 'em. We're going to do it anyway. They will not stop me from going into Japan."
He goes on to mention Caol Uno, Kid Yamamoto and Satoshi Ishii as three of the names at the top of his list to acquire from the Japanese Talent pool. But Kid and Ishii are far tougher nuts to crack than a mid-card fighter like Uno.
Satoshi Ishii is bound to make hundreds of thousands of dollars alone in sponsorships fighting in Japan. Despite his obvious and open courting by the UFC, all he signed was an exclusive negotiation agreement of unknown length. With DREAM offering him millions to sign with them, Zuffa faces an uphill battle.
Kid Yamamoto is similarly out of reach, though now he is supposedly a problem for some of the sponsors due to his alleged participation in hedonistic "pot parties" (seriously) and may need a cooling-off period.
For the UFC, sustaining a roster of top-flight Japanese stars and picking them off from DREAM (or Sengoku) can only happen if they either overpay like hell to make up for lost sponsorship opportunities, or run live events in Japan on a consistent basis in front of a large TV audience.
Right now, their TV deal with subscription-based service WOWOW does very little for them. Though there is a pay-per-view service called SkyPerfecTV that carries DREAM and Sengoku events, it is not a particularly popular or lurcrative option. The real dollars are to be had in major sponsorship for events televised on the major networks. K-1 shows are aired on Fuji TV and DREAM shows on Tokyo Broadcasting Station, which could be likened to the CBS and NBC of Japan. Sengoku events have all been aired on PPV, but they recently secured a TV deal with one of the lesser networks, TV Tokyo.
It could be argued that even with a tape delay of 12 hours or more, UFC could just have the shows in Japan and still do good business on the PPV, but the Zuffa brass know where the money is in that market. If they're really serious about making inroads, a deal with one of the six major networks is the ultimate goal, and it remains to be seen how well they will be accepted into the MMA landscape after the debacle that was the PRIDE purchase. It could take a lot of time and money to achieve any measure of success in the marketplace. Nevertheless, it looks like the UFC is going to take a crack at it.
Interestingly enough, DREAM may take the fight to the UFC to strike the first blow. The mysterious October DREAM 12 event has three candidate destinations: Australia, Korea... and the United States. K-1 has an annual tournament in Las Vegas, so it is not unreasonable to suggest we might see DREAM at the Thomas and Mack Center less than three years after the acclaimed PRIDE 33 event brought the house down.
It will be interesting to see how the paths of American and Japanese MMA cross this year, to say the least.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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rec’d… I must say – a while ago you were connecting these dots.
This post needs to be fronted as it’s the first real analysis of what is happening.
Dream’s damage will be done right in Japan… coming to the US will not do anything to Zuffa.
Its not like the UK market where cage rage had no pull – plus the “MMA” heritage does not reside with Zuffa in Japan like it does everywhere else. In japan MMA is not “Ultimate Fighting”.
Zuffa can not compete japanese platform vs Japanes platform with FEG on their home turf…
The TV deal just needs to be “good enough” then Zuffa can make a stand.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 3:25 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Most everything is in place… it is just a matter of scheduling. This is a risky undertaking and if Zuffa gets its ass handed to it – it will not be good in this climate.
The goal is to set up 2-3 shows a year and attack the surrounding areas (south korea, etc). Much like the London hub with venturing out to the rest of Europe.
Getting the “Michael Bispings” of Japan is the easy part… making the investment pay off is what will count.
Zuffa cant match dollar for dollar with Dream on a japanese TV deal but Zuffa has more ways to monetize that content…
Will a tape delayed Sunday PPV work in north america (like the wwe ppv slots)? Will it work better on spike sunday night…
Zuffa doesnt want more than 12 or so UFC ppv’s per year and the best bang for a ppv is a North American event.
Soon there will be one overseas UFC, 1 ppv and 1 fight night every month. Then capacity will be reached with 2 overseas events, 1 domestic fight night and 1 ppv every month. Roughly 48 UFC events per year.
A system of 320 contracted fighters… constantly rotating in the best and out those who need to re-tool and get more wins.
To do this a presence in Japan is Key – as you touched on – to get the sponsorship opportunities for the fighters on a level playing field with Dream is a must.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 5:34 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Sounds fun.
I will play my game beneath the spin light.
by Eugene Schelfaut on Feb 19, 2009 5:50 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting, it appears the zuffa take over of MMA outside of the states is in full swing. Europe is well on its way and if they get a firm foothold in Japan the Asian scene is all theirs.
You are right, they certainly are not being conservative in their approach to expansion. The risk is quite high and there are many variables outside of the sport that could have a massive impact on zuffa’s attempt to take over. However, the reward is absolutely massive and if it pays off in 3 or 4 years time that will be it for all major competition, especially if they get to the point where they have 48 events per year.
This is an interesting read. I think its very plausible that this is zuffa’s blueprint for control over the MMA.
I am an UFC fan but MMA needs the Cokers (and Dreams) of the world. Without Dream currently in place there are no MMA stars in Japan.
A monopoly in MMA means Sylvia will be Judge Jury and Executioner on all title fights etc.
Absolute power would come when the UFC has the top 10 fighters in every weight class and then politics would soon control fighters salaries and futures. The UFCs ability to “build” a fighter becomes too prevalent.
I fear the days of Chuck getting cans with good records to get an undeserved title shot.
I AM an UFC fanboy but I enjoy all MMA. But I think we NEED the Afflictions, Dreams and Strikeforces as checks and balances. The fighters and the fans need options.
Agreed, although, many people here will disagree with you.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
You're so off the mark
I doubt anyone here disagrees that we need more than just the UFC. Some people want to see all the best fighters in one place (which is not feasible, but it’s a nice dream to have), but there aren’t any regular commenters that hope for the downfall of all who oppose the mighty Zuffa.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
Part of the fun of coming to bloodyelbow is the spirited debates about fights, fighters, organizations and rankings.
I might not always agree with a lot of posts (smoogy and mmasupremacry….lol) but in the end we all agree. We want the best fighters fighting the best fights. I hope the UFC is able to branch out thru the EU and Asia. The stronger their product the MORE mma we get.
If they succeed in global expansion and the revenue dollars become insane, our beloved sport will grow by leaps and bounds. Imagine Dream, Affliction or Strikeforce with 200+ fighters. Makes me all warm inside.
To achieve the goal of 48 cards a year do you think zuffa needs to integrate the flyweight, bantamweight and featherweight classes into the UFC?
Is it feasible to hold this many cards with only 5 titles up for grabs?
Also it would be quite an easy way to attract Japanese fans to the UFC. Lower weight class fighters tend to come quite cheep, Japan produces a whole bunch of them and a few Japanese champions at lower weight classes wouldn’t hurt the cause of expansion into that territory.
It’s interesting because if they intend on signing Yamamoto, who is a featherweight, how will they incorporate him in the UFC model? It’s likely they would try to put him on the main card in a featherweight matchup because he is a tremendous draw in Japan, so it’d be worth a discussion to really figure out if the UFC is actually going to push their WEC divisions into matchups in the UFC if they head to Japan.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 19, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Torres
Would be famous in Japan :)
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 19, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Well written, Smoogy
Rec’d. I’ll join in on the commentary sometime tomorrow morning, I’m sure.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
Ditto, lots to chew on here. Very nicely done.
by Chris Nelson on Feb 19, 2009 4:07 AM EST up reply actions
Sign Akiyama!...
And have him fight Ishii at catch-weight.
Word on the street is that Akiyama signed with Sengoku, who are throwing around ridiculous amounts of money these days.
I can GUARANTEE you that if the UFC puts on a show in Japan, first of all SENGOKU with their incredible funding, and second of all, FEG won’t be sitting idle.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions
Its really hard to say. The Japanese pay structure is obviously quite secretive most of the time. But Sengoku is paying a good 200k per fight or more to their stars like Gomi, Yoshida, and Roger Gracie. If that is the going rate for a bankable star, Sengoku is just keeping pace with the rest of the market.
The thing that makes Sengoku unique is that for the time being, they have a singular goal: to get a regular live TV slot for their events, and the lucrative sponsors that follow. It is unclear if TV Tokyo is going to their permanent home, or just a stepping stone to one of the more prominent channels. But all signs are that they are on or ahead of schedule with their efforts, and the things they have put in place in terms of developing talent for their promotion are very impressive; some might call the alignment of Pancrase and SUSTAIN Shooto under Sengoku groundbreaking. I feel pretty good about the direction they’re headed.
Also Worth Noting
1) SENGOKU is trying to unify Japanese MMA and give it a professional view in Japan, working with Shooto, Pancrase, etc, to make it all organized. They are very well funded and will only keep on getting bigger.
2) Strikeforce has a VERY good relationship with both SENGOKU and DREAM, and have worked together in lending fighters for tournaments, events, etc. If one of those promotions wants to come on over to the US, Strikeforce will most likely aid them.
DonPen by KO 20 seconds into round 1.
by AA'sFlyingKnee on Feb 21, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Does saying Japanese culture is nuts make me a bigot or accurate?
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Both.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 19, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
I never said American culture wasn’t nuts :-)
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
My Japanese sucks but...
that kanji symbol for “male” or “manly” that keeps popping up is pretty funny.
If this report from MMAJunkie is true, it appears Caol Uno is about to walk away from DREAM and sign a contract with the UFC.
smoogy, I believe that Caol Uno was a free agent (contract was up) after he lost to Shinya Aoki in the LW GP.
I don’t see the UFC running fortysome shows a year. They have said they plan is the mid twenties.
One advantage the UFC has is that they are making money, Dream and Sengoku are not. They require a continued influx of investment money, while the UFC runs simply on revenue.
Ishii has to decide what he wants out of MMA. If he wants a long career, the UFC is the right choice. Dana has said he wants to see Ishii train for about twelve months with a top camp before competing.
Dream would offer a huge deal, but he would likely be thrown into the deep waters pretty quickly, with a risk of being the next Sak. Sherdog recently had some comment from a Japanese fighter that talked about the U.S. seeing MMA fighters as athletes more than in the Japanese market.
If Ishii is looking to make a bunch of money quickly and secure his financial security, Dream is the right choice.
Overall, a very well thought out article.
This is all rampant speculation, and I don’t see much of it panning out. The fact is that MMA in Japan is in a considerable downswing. UFC is too smart to try to break into a market where it will have to deal with 1) This aforementioned lack of interest, and 2) Linger nationalistic support of PRIDE, and the rawness some Japanese MMA fans feel over Zuffa’s betrayal of their commitment to Japan.
This reminds me of last year when all of the MMA blogs were treading on DREAM over Sakuraba’s participation in the Middleweight GP. Remember how everyone was crying about how certain they were that he wasn’t going to participate? Ditto Shinya Aoki after his JZ rematch.
The fact is that people love to talk on the internet, but I see a lot of people above me taking everything that’s stated here as being fact. I would slow down a little bit before you start trumping the demise of Japanese MMA, and the impending monopoly of UFC.
I don’t understand this at all. Where is this trumping the demise of Japanese MMA? Zuffa would clearly be using elements of the Japanese MMA scene in order to draw those fans to watch the promotion.
Futhermore, this is speculation, but it’s a well-thought out analysis of the current situation. Nearly everything you read in these posts is speculation until it’s confirmed, but it just so happens that this speculation will take quite awhile to confirm. It shouldn’t be batted away like it doesn’t matter. It breaks the community into some good conversations about what the possibilities are for Zuffa and the UFC.
Also, Uno’s signing only makes sense if they intend to push to Japan. He isn’t an overwhelmingly top Lightweight in the world. He has beaten some pretty good competition with Mitsuhiro Ishida being his recent victim, but the UFC could have simply left him alone and signed up-and-coming American talent if they weren’t in the business of making a run in Japan. It makes perfect sense.
The UFC also wouldn’t have taken so much interest in Ishii and had video blogs discussing how White was going to “meet with Yamamoto”, likely discussing a potential move to the UFC. If you have those three guys in the mix, you’re heading to Japan, period. I think the raw speculation tag is definitely right, but it’s pretty damn good evidence-backed speculation.
Very interesting piece, I think, and most fans should take a read because most hardcore fans in the States don’t understand or follow the Japanese scene that much.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 19, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
I understand tagging it as speculation, and I understand that some fans just aren’t on board till they see it, but realistically, all signs point to Japan. Signing guys like Ishii and Uno are step one, if they can add Yamamoto, great. The only reason to do this would be to hit Japan. It’s gonna happen.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 19, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
But I don’t understand…
Assume those things come to fruition…won’t the Japanese deserters been looked at in a negative light? I just don’t see that as something the Japanese would be able to get behind.
That’s what leads me to believe that it won’t happen. It would be near suicidal to think that could happen in Japan.
Yeah, this is a risk, but it’s up to the Japanese fanbase to accept Zuffa as a legitimate promotion that can appeal to the fans there. They are willing to bring in Japanese talent to appeal to the masses, so it’s really up to those fans. I will say that the Japanese production values do appeal to those fans, and I’d be hesitant to believe the UFC will do PRIDE style entrances, etc.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 19, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
If major league Baseball signs a few good japanese baseball players and they decide to hold a game in japan… do you think the Japanese would be upset and not watch?
Actually there will be a bigger bump initially just from the novelty of the whole thing. and the japanese will be proud that there own can compete in the pre-eminent league of the sport
Before anyone says the japanese are upset because of what Zuffa did with pride… PRIDE was involved with Yakuza – do you know how much yakuza is hated in japan?
The risks are not in the consumption of Zuffas products… the risks are Japan is someone else’s home turf.
Will they pull a “stalingrad” and try to bleed and demoralize Zuffa out? or Will they succumb to being the “strikeforce” of japan?
This is how chess is played.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If nothing else, it will be interesting to watch.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Are the Japanese fans of the sport, the fighter or the promotional organizations? If they are fans of the sport and the fighters then they would probably be excited to see their best fighing the best from around the world regardless of who the promoter is. Yes they are nationalistic and yes they have a tendancy to not support foriegn companies but will all the Japanese fans completly turn on Japanese stars just because they are fighting for a different company? They don’t have to beat the world first time out they just have to get enough people to show up for it to be viable for their global expansion.
The UFC doesn’t have to rely on being instantly huge in Japan as that isn’t their only income stream for these events, they will also be selling them around the world like the rest of their shows. This isn’t a invasion it’s an attempt at a market foothold.
“This isn’t a invasion it’s an attempt at a market foothold.”
Yeah, that is how I would frame it. People have this perception that DREAM is ripe for the picking, but they aren’t going anywhere. Their ratings aren’t on fire, but they are enough to sustain their place in the landscape. American fans can’t wrap their heads around the business model, but suffice to say there is a lot of money in sponsorships and advertising when your shows are being viewed by millions and millions of people.
It would be pretty far-fetched for UFC to “take over” to the detriment of DREAM/Sengoku even if their initial efforts are a success.
There is a perception on both sides of the debate that Zuffa is out to be a global MMA monopoly but I don’t think that is the case. Even if Zuffa could kill Dream off(they can’t) why would they want to? The more popular MMA is in Japan the better chance the UFC has at filling up an arena there. Zuffa’s wanting a seat at the Japanese table and most likely Dream wants them to stay out (I’m sure Dream would like a bigger seat at the US table too) but that doesn’t neccessarily mean that either company wants the other dead or that they would even be capable of that if they did.
If mmalogic says so, Dana White may as well say so (the Fitch debacle, Couture’s return etc s/he knows what’s going on in the halls of Zuffa). This is a lot more then rampant speculation. From both Smoogy’s well written article and mmalogic’s above comment I am in fact sure that Zuffa already have major plans in place to holding an event in Japan within the next 12 months.
One of the best written fanposts I have seen. Very nice work Smoogy!
I can’t help but think, if UFC is to succeed in Japan, they will have to change some of their policies, namely contract structure. I think they will need some of the aforementioned Japanese fighters, but may need to use 1 or 2 fight contracts to persuade them to fight in the UFC.
Should be interesting.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Excellent post Smoogy. So how do you think WVR and FEG would respond? I mean, a K-1 show in Las Vegas is cool and all, but that is hardly a long-term solution for FEG. They can’t fight fire with fire and hire big name folks from the North American scene and run shows here because Zuffa already runs the show over here. Even WVR, with its bottomless financial backing, can’t compete in America.
So how do you think they will attempt to combat the UFC? I suppose this might be what you were getting at with your cryptic pronouncement that something big was going on between WVR/FEG and Strikeforce.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
I think you’ll see DREAM and Sengoku fighters often in Strikeforce. Scott Coker is tight with K-1 Boss Mr. I and a bunch of other people who control the talent over there. With both of the Japanese brands having a modest footing on HDNet, I think we will see at least DREAM try for an American event or two in the near future. I’d agree that trying to make big waves in the American marketplace is not going to be their trump card. But Mr. I is crazy enough that I could see DREAM making some kind of attempt, or at least picking off a couple of the fighters on the UFC roster as an act of retaliation.
The great thing about the UFC potentially trying to make a splash in Japan is that short of another massive scandal, this can only do good for the MMA industry there. Japanese fans tend to mark out big time for inter-promotional rivalries, and with the barbarians at the gate, DREAM and Sengoku are unlikely to do anything but ramp up their own operations to capitalize. Even if UFC fails in spectacular fashion, the interest generated could be a big boon to everyone in the market.
To put it simply, there is no telling what will happen if the two worlds collide, but it will probably be very entertaining for MMA fans on both sides.
But would Coker be concerned with the 800lbs gorilla? I have read that he and White have a good relationship and Dana respects him. Will bringing top competition from Japan to fight on US soil hurt it?
I don’t see how they can stay sane while worrying about things like that. Strikeforce has a platform on Showtime and CBS, it will be hard for the UFC to mess that up for them. For the time being, bringing in guys like Aoki and Sakurai is more of a love letter to the hardcore fans than an act of aggression from my perspective.
The only thing that strikeforce really does that can make Dana comment negatively about them is their association with wamma. But that really won’t matter unless they actually have a title match in strikeforce. ANd even if they do that, it won’t cause Dana to try to kill them, it will just cause him to make some wiseass comment.
For me, this is the best case scenario
DREAM and Sengoku + Strikeforce – Affliction, and have that entity as a domestic/international alternative mash-up to the UFC. It would consolidate a lot of the talent I want to see fight each other. And besides, mainstream US MMA fans don’t really take to international talent (particularly Asian fighters) the way they probably should when they fight in the UFC. It’s possible they could see greater success as a part of Strikeforce programming, but that remains to be seen.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
This jibes pretty completely with what I’ve been expecting.
I expect them to win the battle with dream and sengoku, but its gonna be one hell of a tough fight.
This is gonna make the British expansion look painless.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 19, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
To even begin answering your question, you have to figure out what the perception of the UFC is in Japan and how much money it would cost them to run a show over there.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
What question?
His take is unpopular, sure. But your idea that the UFC can’t hold a show in Japan to test the waters is equally unlikely. Dana’s not going to move all of the fighters and their families to Kyoto and build a Station Casino to house them in. They might do a show. For all the enthusiasm and upside you grant all things non-Zuffa, you’re curiously derisive of the UFC’s attempts to do much of anything right.
They’re the most successful MMA organization in the history of the sport.
Shit’s hilarious…
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 19, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny. I like how you add all these other things that I didn’t even bring up.
When did I say that the UFC can’t hold a signle show to test the waters?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm glad you see the humor in your commentary, too
I’m not going to skim threads to quote you. Your philosophies are obvious to anyone that frequents multiple threads of this nature. The novelty is wearing off. I may come off as championing Zuffa every time I engage you, but the truth is, I’m a fan of Sengoku, UFC, Affliction, WEC, DREAM, Jungle Fight and Strikeforce, as well as a supporter of local Midwestern MMA and an avid viewer of any streaming content (such as this weekend’s UWC show) that is readily available to me (not to mention that I follow BJJ events such as the mundials and Judo competitions). I hated EXC because of their management (and don’t care for some of Affliction’s higher ups). I loved PRIDE & UFC equally while they coexisted. But I’m simply not one to wear kid gloves, or be diplomatic, where it concerns just how far ahead of the curve the UFC and Zuffa are. It’s not rationally debatable. And Dana man-crushers are more tolerable as a result of that fact. Dana haters, such as yourself, are comedic. I mean, what is your agenda? Are you catching residuals from Attencio? You’re not ahead of the curve, boss. You don’t know something the rest of us don’t. Those days are done. If you love the sport of MMA and you don’t actively root for the leader of the sport to successful, you’re sledging at pillars in the foundation.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 19, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Funny how people who criticize only point out what I write about Affliction.
I never hear any criticism when I write about Strikeforce, DREAM, Sengoku, etc.
Plus, I love Dana and the UFC. Where are people getting this idead that I hate the UFC? I’m just one of those people that doesn’t ONLY love the UFC or worships everything they do.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Every single time you talk about the UFC, it is in a negative light.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Just curious, can you point me to a FanPost I have created in BE where I bash the UFC? I admit that I don’t write love fests as posts about Zuffa (many BE members already do that), but I don’t see how that = a Zuffa hater.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Gladly! Here are your fanposts that concern Zuffa or Zuffa affiliated fighters. Almost every single one is negative.
Negative:
Is UFC 97 In Jeopardy?
Werdum Wants Fedor and Arlovski, Bashes Lesnar and UFC
GracieFighter Reports Diaz Bout On March/April For Strikeforce, Accuses Team Jackson Of Greasing
Satoshi Ishii Puts UFC Negotiations On Hold, Also Looking at Affliction
UFC 92 Final Gate Numbers
Station Casinos to File for Bankruptcy?
The Action Figure Wars: UFC vs Round 5
UFC 91 Draws 10,845 Paid for 4.8 Million Gate
Station Casinos Report a Net Loss of 23.4 Million in 3rd Quarter
Affliction VP Tom Atencio Believes Station Casinos Will Go out of Business Early Next Year
Not Negative:
Leites vs Silva and Alves vs GSP/Penn on Tap for UFC Belts?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 19, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Negative or just news that people are interested in reading?
Theres a few that deal with Greasing. Is everyone who made a comment about Grease Gate considered a Zuffa hater? Does the fact that I posted that Cesar Gracie said that Team Jackson greases makes me a Zuffa hater?
Im sorry, but I find that funny. What I see is news I have posted for others to read, not some news I am making up to bash the UFC.
Plus, post all other posts where I don’t even mention the UFC.
Theres plenty more of those than the list you came up with.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
You almost spam this place with news about promotions other than the UFC being wildly optimistic about how awesome they are. Whenever you post about the UFC it is in an overly negative light.
I love Dana and the UFC. Where are people getting this idead that I hate the UFC?
Gee, I wonder where people get that idea.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Four-Man Nuthugger Tournament
iiowyn vs. MMASuPreMaCy
subo vs. skwirrl
by smoogy on Feb 19, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Hahaha.
smoogy, this is a great fanpost, so I will stop overshawdowing it this little kid bickering.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m reccing this out of sheer principle.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Subo wins because Skwirrl was banned a week or so ago.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 19, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
I want to ask why
…though I’m not sure you can tell me.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
We decided five warnings was enough. The new rule is 2 warnings then ban unless you do something ban-worthy before you get to #3.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 19, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
The two sweetest words in the English language! De-fault, de-fault, de-fault!
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha
That’s fun..
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
Hmm...
You’re pretty good at clicking the wrong reply. I’m probably better suited to refereeing though, champ..
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
BTW
Keep arguing with points I never made.
Makes for a very interesting read.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Ok d00d
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
Sorry about that.
Reference to your comment about wining the battle against DREAM and Sengoku.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I know this wasn't the main point of the article
But is anyone else pretty excited at the thought of a Dream card at the Thomas & Mack center?
I would book my travel arrangements right now if they announced a show in Vegas.
Rec'd - very well written
While the stigma that marijuana carries is a constant thorn in my side, I guess I could forgive Japan for driving out it’s most talented mixed martial artist on account of him smoking it.
Frankly, I think Dana’s better off hosting shows in/conquering the other 200+ countries on the planet first. Japan is such a unique market for MMA, with tastes that diverge wildly from the rest of the world. I wish Zuffa the best of luck in their continuing mission to capture all of the world’s top talent across every division.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 3:45 PM EST reply actions
The intrinsic advantage the UFC has is their compartmentalized machine for monetizing MMA content.
For example, lets say UFC runs a fall show in the Nippon Gaishi Hall, a 10,000+ seat venue where DREAM 8 is taking place. They sell half of the tickets and give the rest away, and the event does a modest PPV take on SkyPerfecTV. But back home and in several other countries, they have new MMA content to repackage and sell as TV content or on-demand programming. And despite initially taking a bath on the cost of producing a show in Japan, they get a cover story or two in Kamipro and create a stir in the media over there.
It could take years for them to actually become a success in Japan, but their infrastructure is built in a way that they could take a hit locally and still benefit on a global level, if that makes any sense.
by smoogy on Feb 19, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It makes complete sense
Again, great post.
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 19, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, its basically my take on it. The UFC can’t move in and flat take over. It’ll have to be a war of attrition based on the fact that the UFC just has so many ways to monetize.
by Michaelthebox on Feb 19, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
But it’s not that simple. The UFC has ways to monetize—DVD’s, unleashed, action figure, etc.
But the cost of going to Japan is extraordinary compared to the cost of expanding to Europe. And it’s not just a cost in money.
The biggest difference, and this is crucial, is the incredible importance of connections in running a successful business in Japan, combined with Japanese suspicion of foreign business. It takes years to create the kinds of business and political relationships that they need to succeed over there. Years. There are literally books filled with sob stories of companies that went to Japan and got killed. It’s not as hard as CHina, but it’s very hard. You can’t make these connections by visiting a few times a year. You have to immerse yourself in the culture. They’d need to open a full UFC office in Japan dedicated to the country and to making the right kind of connections. The idea that they’re just going to fly over to Japan and succeed running a few times a year is borderline ridiculous.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Don’t they have a full office in England?
by Michaelthebox on Feb 19, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
They have a few employees. It’s necessary there too, but not on the same level. The expense is going to be extraordinary, they will need a full office, multiple law firms, etc.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
This is why I tend to agree with Zach Arnold’s assertion that they would need a competent partner in order to do business in Japan. He mentioned Total Sports Asia, which I’m not really that familiar with. I would suppose that Sengoku might be a possible mate for the UFC. They did do that odd intermission at the last event where Okami and Ishii took the mic and cut some cryptic promos about what they were going to be doing next.
Of course, any arrangement like that would fly in the face of how UFC traditionally conducts business.
I’m just having nightmares thinking about the UFC trying China.
Yes, they would need a joint venture partner in Japan to do this.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I should also say a joint venture in tech is much more viable than a joint venture here. In tech, you lend your technology to a local firm in exchange for their connections and other local assets. Their success is heavily tied to the success of the business. I don’t know if you can create the same kind of incentive plan for a sports company working with an MMA company.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
It wouldn’t be that odd if they could find a partner that they feel like they could work with.
Something like that can’t happen with Dream, but there’s a possibility with Sengoku. Chuck fighting in the GP and Wandy stepping into the Octagon did happen. They tried once, and it didn’t pay off. I think they’d be willing to try again with different people and if the terms were right.
Agreed
I actually have talked to Zach about this before. They would definitely need a competent partner, especially to grab the connections they need in Japan and promote the UFC effectively. Whether or not White and company intend to do that is another story. It almost seems like they are stubborn at bringing in outside help, but they’d really have to in this case.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
The biggest difference, and this is crucial, is the incredible importance of connections in running a successful business in Japan, combined with Japanese suspicion of foreign business. It takes years to create the kinds of business and political relationships that they need to succeed over there. Years. There are literally books filled with sob stories of companies that went to Japan and got killed. It’s not as hard as CHina, but it’s very hard. You can’t make these connections by visiting a few times a year. You have to immerse yourself in the culture. They’d need to open a full UFC office in Japan dedicated to the country and to making the right kind of connections.
Or Zuffa can simply hire the right people who already have these connections :)
Zuffa doesn’t need to take over Japanese MMA – with 2-3 shows per year executed cost effectively and with enough eyeballs it eliminates all of dreams advantages (namely the sponsorships for the marquee fighters).
It’s all about leverage.
Dont think of Ishi, Uno, etc… as “fighters” for the UFC – think of them as “spokesman” for Zuffa to Japans MMA world.
Even if Zuffa makes no money on those 3 shows but can successfuly sustain it, think of all the new japanese viewers that will be generated for all of the other Zuffa shows not in Japan… that’s all gravy.
The 2 or 3 japanese shows will make all the other Zuffa shows more money.
Zuffa is at a point where any “singular positive” becomes exponentially positive because there are so many active synergies in play.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It can’t just hire people with connections. Japan is not DC, you can’t just hire a lobbying firm. There is a culture and history that goes into connections in Japan.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
And I should say it’s not just about running shows and whether they’ll be profitable. It’s things like having your shows sabotaged, having licenses revoked, getting extorted at the last minute before shows…the only way to really deal with these things is to actively be there and be ready to fight it. NOt to have a local firm on retainer.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, you do realize the UFC had a show in Japan before?
Japan is a cake walk compared to Mexico and that’s been figured out – If important people in the country are vested in Zuffa being successful then most of the behind the scenes politics usually get worked out.
Guys who have been in the gaming business all there lives know all about sabatoge risks, etc…
Zuffa has had an office there since the pride purchase… granted people have been in and out and staff volume has been up and down – but the important things have been figured out.
Zuffa’s not trying to stage a coup on japans government here…
The Japan Move is NOT a slam dunk but it’s worth the risk especially since it’s mitigated properly.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say that Japan is a cakewalk wrt Mexico. I mean, in Mexico the biggest issue that you have to deal with is the corruption in both low and high levels of government, and setting up a situation that keeps the UFC’s hands clean. In Japan, you have to deal with things like the entrenched distrust of foreign business and (among the hardcore fans) the hatred that was whipped up towards UFC/Zuffa particularly after the PRIDE acquisition. The “language and protocol” of business, if you will, is much more similar in Mexico than in Japan.
I don’t think that makes either easier or harder; I think the challenges are just very different. Ultimately, I agree with your last sentence. It’s not a sure thing, but it’s a calculated risk.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
We’re not talking about buying a plant and setting up a car manufacturing business in japan.
Initially that was the plan with pride… to be a Japanese based promotion which wasn’t feasible….
Has there been boxing matches in Japan from US promoters? Has there been concerts from US artists in Japan?
Yes…
Mexico is 5 times trickier and more dangerous as the power brokers change often.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, yes and no. Mexico is definitely trickier and more dangerous in that you’re constantly getting used to a new set of conditions and personality. Easier in that you already know what they want, and they’re quite happy to give you what you want in exchange (that’s what I meant by the language and protocol). Whereas in Japan you have to break through what is essentially a cultural and communication gap that’s about as wide as the Pacific. But IF you can do that, you’re golden. So, in my mind, it’s kind of like this: short term, Mexico is easier (if you have money); long term, Japan is easier (if you can get there).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
This is one of the reasons fans have been skeptical. There is a culture, and the UFC could get locked out. That’s always been the problem. One of the things helping their cause would be the potential money that could be made with the signing of those high drawing figthers. Networks and other companies wouldn’t want to turn away from such a huge drawing power that those three guys represent.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
To be honest, the Japan expansion is the first UFC move I oppose from a business perspective. Put aside the issue of whether they can succeed—I think that’s complicated. The real question is what is the point of success? What can it bring you?
I don’t see any positive outcome here. The Japanese economy is in absolute hell right now, they’ll have to pay millions to get any stars that can draw in Japan, and their main revenue source (PPV) will be depleted by airing shows 12 hours later. I realize that the end goal here is to get to a point where they try to have global PPV shows with huge markets around the world buying, but they better be ready to lose a ton in the short run.
I’ve studied a lot about investment in China and Japan. Nothing Dana White or others say about the market gives me any faith AT ALL that they understand what is needed to survive there. Dana’s ridiculous comments about “crazy russian” and “fuck em, we’re going anyway” suggest to me the kind of cultural ignorance that you read about later in case studies about disastrous expansions to Japan.
I think they’re spreading things too thin. The Canada thing almost fell through the cracks and that’s their best market, how the hell are they going to handle a similar problem if it comes up in Japan? They can hire a law firm in Japan, but seriously, I think they will get crushed on opposition turf.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agreed. Good post Rome.
If they want to succeed in Japan that badly, and I don’t know if anyone knows why, they better prepare to exhaust tons of resources and lose a lot of money. Will it be worth it in the end? I guess we are trying to figure out what this end is first.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this for the most part, but I’m not about to protest, because UFC in Japan has the potential to totally revitalize the industry, and I don’t particularly care if they lose millions trying to make it work. But yeah, you have to scratch your head about their international gameplan by now. As far as the Canadian market is concerned, they should be running shows annually in Calgary, Montreal and Halifax by now.
My theory? Dana is a bit sick in the head about Japan. I think they look at those ridiculous ratings for the apex of K-1/MMA in Japan, but don’t quite grasp how difficult that level of success is to achieve.
I also think Dana is an enormous MMA fanboy, and he loves the environment around Japanese combat sports, even if he doesn’t get it. I’ll give him that much credit: during the days of PRIDE, while he talked bad about their management and downplayed their fighters as part of his promoter persona, I bet he was sitting at home watching PRIDE replays and thinking, “How can we do that?”
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
The Pride purchase is a big example of fanboy thinking from him. It really was a poor business deal and the plan to run the company after the purchase was doomed from the start, they bought it because they wanted it.
It is very sad that a lot of people see the situation as Dana wanting to kill and bury Pride.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans have a completely different culture than anything we can understand.
My son plays World of Warcraft,, an online game. When Blizzard (the developer) have game announcement etc in Korea and China they rent out 30,000 seat stadiums. People dress up as their favorite video game characters. Its madness.
If you get 1 Chinese fighter that marketable to .5% of the Chinese people……..
Actually Riney, that is becoming the culture here in the states as well.
America’s youth movement is heavily influenced by Japan and Korea, anime, etc, and the 80’s for some reason.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Youth culture is based on going against the norms, anime has been a growing underground in the US since I was young(a very long time ago) as it gets towards mainstream it’s probable that youth culture will move to the next big thing. Lets face it when your parents accept something it’s no longer cool anymore. As for the 80’s revival nostalgia seems to be cyclical.
This is a classic business flaw in going to China. In fact, it’s the paradigm of American failure over there, this idea that it’s a “billion customers” and if you just grab a small percentage you’ll do so well. Most attempts end in tears.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
The video game market there has worked that way. So did the money the Chinese NBA player Yo Ming (sp) raked in. As well as tele communications etc. I am not saying its the norm, but it has been done.
The thing is, the misperception is people take a few visible successes and assume others can do it. The vast majority have failed in terrible fashion.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Especially given that the whole “We just need to get 1% of the population base” thing doesn’t take into account that the vast majority of China’s population lives near or below what would be considered a poverty standard of living in North America. Part of the reason for China’s massive economic growth is that the guy pulling 12 hour shifts painting rubber ducks in a factory on the Pearl River delta makes about as much in a week as I do in a day (unsurprising given that the same was true of multiple booms in the States, India, etc.). There are rich people in China, sure. THere’s even a middle class now, which was unthinkable under a communist economic system twenty years ago. But the vast majority of Chinese remain either poor labourers, or poor farmers. And they ain’t buying PPVs at $50 a pop.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
You must have a horrible job if your only making a Chinese weekly wage in a day. The average monthly pay in 2007 was around $160. The Chinese aren’t going to be buying PPVs at any price in the forseeable future but then you wouldn’t try to push a PPV market plan there anyway. If GM can sell hundreds of thousands of Buick’s in China (they sell more there than they do here) then there is always a chance that a company could sell MMA programming to a tv station there, hard doesn’t mean impossible.
It’s rhetoric, not math.
And part of the reason that GM sells cars in China, is because there’s lots of people there with new money and owning an American car is a status symbol and sign of power.
Granted, yes, there are many people with money and a deal on Chinese TV would be insanely lucrative. But my point is just that the liquidity in the market is VERY different than most of the other markets that Zuffa has tried to go into before. It’s not as simple an equation as some marketing “geniuses” would have everyone believe.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
It’s rhetoric, not math.
Just pointin out that they are a lot worse off than even that rhetoric :D
The Buick comedy is that an nearly dead brand in the US that primarily sells to the elderly is one of the top sellers in China as a status symbol for the young middle class. It’s hard to say what will and won’t work there.
Sorry; writing from work at the end of the day makes me cranky.
I often wonder if people in China buying Buicks know how we look at them in North America. Somehow I hope they do; I’d like to think they’re smarter than the teenagers in Toronto trying to look hard by getting a bunch of “generic Asian” symbols that they can’t read tattooed on their necks.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Honestly, I’m not opposed to Japanese expansion, but I am opposed to expanding into places like Germany where the MMA base isn’t so huge. Sure, they have a solid hardcore fanbase, but the television deal they obtained isn’t great, and adding French TV isn’t a solid bet either. To be perfectly honest, I’d stop expanding into Euripe, continue the UK invasion, and start meddling in the Japanese market that has a history of MMA already.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Europe is wide open for a major MMA league, if M-1 had the capital they could easily mount an offensive that is without UFC interference. The UFC is trying to build an MMA fan base in Germany and central Europe through this show. By the UFC building an MMA base in Germany they end up having total control over the MMA market in the country.
These shows will create a stir in the media generating lots of attention, much like the very early UFCs did in the US. This makes the job very easy. The first big show in a country will attract huge attention. When the UFC first came to Ireland there was quite a bit of free publicity provided, ignorant radio shows with hosts talking about cage boxing etc. All this promotes the league in the key demographic and makes the product seem edgy. In Europe these cards will promote themselves.
It’s worth noting the UFC has built a strong following in Sweden and Finland but has not even discussed holding a show there yet. They would sell out in an instant but because they already have that market sown up through TV there is no value in expansion there.
The UFC, in this international expansion are literally attempting to take over the world MMA scene. The US is the big money maker and it’s already there’s. The only threat comes from a big league becoming established in Europe or in Asia. Making sure a major league wont spring out of Europe is a piece of cake. Japan it will be more difficult, something covered extensively in this comment section. But if can keep DREAM and Sengoku at the level they are currently at (or bring them down a peg or two) the UFC will do enough to make sure they will always have access to 90% of the talent out there and also 90% of the revenue available from MMA worldwide. It’s risky and brash but the potential pay off in 5-10 years time is astronomical. If the UFC can do what mmalogic says it is planning to and holds 48 shows per year they will control the whole sport.
Here’s what I’m trying to convey.
They are trying to move into to many areas at once, and it’s going to stretch their overall foundation and their money flow. England and Scandanavia are potentially great places to head. I know for a fact that Sweden, Finland, and Norway are good drawing countries, and they should definitely try to move into those areas, and it wouldn’t be that tough to include UK fighters on those cards as well to draw some UK interest in the general region.
Germany, while in a bit of an infancy of MMA, could potentially be a great place to head, but when we sit here talking about heading into Japan, a possible money pit for awhile until the UFC can get a foothold in the market, I think spreading out money flow and pushing into Europe at the same time may be wishful thinking. All the expenses will add up.
Now, to counter my own theory, if the UFC puts on an average of one show in Europe and follow it with a few shows in the U.S., a trip to Japan, another in Europe, but always follows those overseas shows up with solid drawing U.S. shows, it’s a possibility. A very good possibility.
I agree if the UFC can push 48 shows per year, they’ll have enough solid backup revenue with U.S. cards to continue pushing into Europe and Japan at the same time, and eventually making some scratch in the UK region and Europe while continuning to push into Japan.
Eventually, maybe in 5 years, they should be easily making money in all markets if the product, fighters, and overall state of the economy improve.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
But the Germany show, at the very least, will break even. It will sell out, or be very close to selling out. And if the rumours of Crocop being on the card are true it will certainly sell out due to a Croatian invasion. The gate will cover most of fighter’s salaries and whatever number of PPVs are sold will cover the rest of the costs. Ireland had a non existent MMA scene and that show sold out in days with a fairly poor card. What’s more most people in Ireland between 18 and 35 have now heard of "cage fighting" or "ultimate fighting" and know that if they want to see men in small gloves punch each other in the face they should look at the UFC.
This is what is worth most to the UFC. The Germany show will make bloody sure that 80 million Germans will think that the UFC is the only show in town. I know the card would make the UFC a pile more cash in the states but this is about long term gains. The UK is never quite considered at the centre of the EU, Germany most certainly is. This is the UFC announcing that Europe is now our turf.
You might be right that the UFC are spreading themselves thin. However, I think you are probably wrong here (despite making a good case). They have an office in Japan and in the UK, I expect these will handle all the nitty gritty time consuming ground work. This will leave the UFC brass to handle all the bigger stuff.
We will agree to differ and time will tell I suppose. But it is also only a matter of time before a well run cage rage type entity develops on continental Europe, if this captures the European market before the UFC they will have missed a massive opportunity when the whole content is wide open for top flight MMA. They need to strike when the iron is hot, that’s why it’s Germany now and Scandinavia later
It should at least break even, if the gate sells out. I don’t think they are going to make a killing on TV, but it’ll be interesting to see what the U.S. PPV sales do.
I’m not talking about stretching themselves thin ground work wise or time wise, I’m talking about money wise. It still costs a helluva a lot of dough to move equipment, people, fighters, comp hotel costs for fighters and their corners, etc. That only increased when hitting overseas markets. That’s my concern. Increasing all those costs consecutively by hitting overseas markets a lot more in the next few months hurts their bottom line.
Strategically, I think they need to do U.S. events in between these shows, and I think that’s what we’ll see. I think like I said before, we’ll see a UK show, US Show, Europe show, US show here and there and then Japan. Eventually, it won’t matter. They’ll have multiple revenue sources for the Overseas shows in Asian/European PPV plus US PPV.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Zuffa is pretty frugal so dont worry about money being spread too thin… everything is happening in stages.
Get some japanese fighters (uno, etc…)
Cost? negligible.
Leverage? use these matchups to impprove and secure a better Japanese TV deal.
Get some exposure with new japanese TV deal, PR (ishi promoting the UFC to the japanese fans), etc…
This will get the ground ready for a Live event.
Dana’s not busting down the door and screaming you wanna be a japanese fucking fan!
Nidge explained the “new terf” strategy very well and the behavior… Zuffa understands that wont work in Japan as MMA isnt considered “Ultimate Fighting” and they have their own MMA heritage.
The biggest risk in going to Japan is what Smoogy pointed out… which was Zuffa’s efforts could just revive and inadvertently help these Japanese orgs become profitable.
No matter what this will happen… just have to mitigate this effect while making inroads.
by mmalogic on Feb 20, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A couple things:
-I received a tip of sorts about the broad strokes of UFC’s plans for Japan quite some time ago, and yeah, the part about picking off some Japanese stars as “brand ambassadors” was always step one. But I question whether or not they can really get guys like Yamamoto, Ishii, Yoshida or Sakuraba. These fighters aren’t “company men” like a Rich Franklin or Forrest Griffin; they’re loyal mainly to their paycheck, and know that they don’t need UFC as much as the UFC needs them. The smart ones are already using Zuffa as a way to inflate their price tag with DREAM and Sengoku. I can see the UFC getting burned pretty bad if their strategy is reliant on established Japanese stars.
-As far as risks go, they could lose millions of dollars, tarnish their reputation by bungling things up, or even jeopardize their American operations if they were to get mired in a scandal. There are lots of ways things can go bad. But when they do enter Japan, helping to revitalize DREAM and Sengoku isn’t a risk… it is an inevitability.
Japanese MMA fans love a good inter-promotional war, and any aggression from the UFC will surely “fire up the base” so to speak. This is why I think it is a mistake to try and take FEG’s lunch like they’re doing now – its already easy enough to paint UFC as the bad guy without them gunning for the #1 Japanese promotion.
Some would argue that the Japanese MMA scene is gearing up for a big resurgence whether or not the UFC invasion angle plays out. I think Zuffa should be looking at how they can help make the pie bigger in concert with the other promotions rather than just charging in and planting their flag. There is no way for them to keep the other promotions down.
Inevitable?
Possible, more like it. There’s nothing inevitable about it. That is to assume that the UFC is unsuccessful, the scope of their plans, or that they don’t partner with one of the aforementioned organizations. And there’s no formula to revitalizing the Japanese MMA scene. I’m going to walk out on this really big branch and say that you’re not more informed than Zuffa. I think they’re privy to many of these cultural standards, though some comments in this thread seem to suggest that they’re stumbling around, drunkenly swinging a club at Japanese consumers. Some of your other points are valid. Also, some have argued perpetually that Japanese MMA is in line for a resurgence. Personally, I’m taking a wait and see approach to all of these issues.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
If Japan is set for a resurgence regardless of the UFCs entry into the market then they are damn right to try and grab as much as they can.
It doesn’t matter if they accelerate the growth of Japanese MMA, once they keep DREAM or Sengoku from growing into monster leagues the job will be done. Just keep them at strikeforce level and pick off the top talent when they get the chance. If they stood by and let them grow to the level of PRIDE then the UFC would be making a monumental error.
On a side note
I want to commend Smoogy for bringing all this up. It has produced a very interesting debate on something that will be incredibly influential over the future landscape of MMA.
Actually I cant argue about the revitalization effect being inevitable…
The risk is this effect being greater than Zuffa’s penetration/impact and that’s the question that will be answered.
As far as company men, I also agree these guys are using Zuffa as much as Zuffa is using them. I have to disagree about the “franklins” of the world being company men….
Every Zuffa fighter would cut tail and run if for some reason Zuffa was in trouble and couldnt pay them or benefit them at current levels… the only exception would be Chuck.
This Zuffa “loyalty” is ALL paid for.
But Ishii, kid, etc.. using Zuffa to leverage their paydays is welcomed… besides weakening the competition before going to japan – Id like to know exactly how much Dream, etc… is willing to go before an octagon steps foot into the land of the rising sun.
At the end of the day these guys maybe more crazy than assumed – and Id like to know that now.
Can these guys be blead to being the “strikeforce” of Japan before the octagon enters Japan? we’ll see…
They need to be weakened enough to mitigate the revitalizing effect… otherwise Zuffa’s efforts in Japan can just net to being a “feeder” system for dream or someone else.
by mmalogic on Feb 21, 2009 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now I understand why Zuffa are letting Ishii go to Japan if he wants, despite the fact he has a contract with the UFC.
I presumed they were gonna go in and compete fair and square, run a few shows and try take a piece of the market away from FEG and WVR, thus keeping them on a leash and not allowing them to grow to big.
The approach mmalogic has laid out makes far more sense. Put out the word that you’re coming to town, get the Japanese to panic and then start paying stupid money for their fighters. When they have hurt themselves enough with debt, march in and make your stand and they won’t be able to match you. It sounds very good in theory.
mmalogic, may I ask why you are laying down all this info here and now?
I think one of the interesting possibilities here is that unlike the state of the business in the US there actually would be a reason for co-promotion in Japan. Obviously it is silly for the UFC to work with any of the competitors in the US currently as there is more to lose than to gain but in Japan there is something for both sides in the deal. A interpromotional war is great for growing the market and both sides know that.
People always criticize Dana White for the wrong things. Too many f bombs!!!!!
The real criticism that matters is his cultural ignorance. I don’t say this as an attack: his straight-ahead attitude has worked well in America. But the flaw that will undo him overseas is his assumption that everyone has the same goals he does in business.
You can see it when he talks about Fedor’s management. He mocks them for wanting arenas, perks for themselves, etc. He just can’t understand it. The reason he can’t make a deal with them is they have different goals in the negotiations. It’s not “crazy” that they want Dana to work with someone in Russia to build an arena. It’s in fact perfectly predictable given the form of capitalism that exists in post-Soviet Russia. Great businessmen study markets and history of markets before going in to truly understand the background their business partners are coming from.
One of my favorite stories is reading about JP Morgan’s disaster in China. In the early years trying to use the harvard “getting to yes” approach and making a ton of concessions and then getting nothing in return, all the while their joint venture partner is setting up to backstab them by taking the concessions and going to Goldman. You have to know a market before you go. I don’t think the UFC has shown me any reason to believe they know Japan.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:01 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Agreed. Too bad more people are not responding to your posts.
You said something negatvie about Dana, maybe people wil consider you a ZUFFA hater now.
:)
I vaguely remember Dana also being solely blamed for not making a network deal happen due to his abbrasive attitude with HBO and CBS. Wal-Mart is another example that comes to mind. Although, some people may say that the network deals were probably bad and Dana was right about not making a deal, but that didn’t stop Scott Coker from getting on HDNet, NBC, Showtime, and CBS in the near future.
With all that put aside, Dana has done the job here in the states and the UFC would not be where they are without him. On the other hand, it is probably smart of Zuffa to let the Fertitta’s or more experienced business men that have the experience to deal with foreign businesses.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
The deals were horrible, it’s a good thing he didn’t sign them. Absolute death traps for the UFC, which is much better off for not doing these deals.
by Michael Rome on Feb 19, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
CBS was a death trap.
Showtime was a nice vehicle if used correctly (which I think Coker is doing now).
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 19, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Showtime is great for Strikeforce but it wouldn’t of been a good fit for the UFC anyway. Situations and needs of the organization differ from promotion to promotion, what works for Strikeforce (late night NBC for example) just doesn’t neccessarily work for the UFC or any other organization for that matter.
UFC was negotiating with HBO
There were major disputes over control of the production. Showtime isn’t even part of this equation.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
That’s just the story that has come out and accepted as legend on the internet.
Especially after looking at how the CBS deal played out, I’m sure control of production was one of the problems in the deal. But I don’t think it’s smart to assume it was the only one/tipping point that kept the deal from getting done.
Sorry?
No one is assuming it’s the only one/tipping point. I said it was a major dispute. Clearly the UFC values controlling their own production. It was one of the primary factors in the deal with Spike.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 19, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
I really don’t think it was as major as everyone is making it.
Everyone said that was the major problem with network TV also, then we take a look at the CBS deal. After paying CBS to produce the show, they were walking out with 100k per show. That’s ridiculous. I still don’t believe it was the major bone of contention that everyone is making it out to be, it doesn’t make sense.
I’m not saying it wasn’t an issue, but your statement reads like disputes over control of production was the major reason the deal wasn’t done, and I’m not buying it. It was one of the problems, but the UFC would be stupid to prevent a valuable deal from going down because they wanted to keep Rogan and Goldberg. If the money was right, they’d be gone.
Hm..
Not really sure what you’re arguing. I made a bullet point, not a thesis statement.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 19, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Wait and see how Dana’s ignorance about Japanese culture and his abrassive personality only help :)
Japanese love pro-wrestling, and Dana White will offend lots of people and that will equal lots of extra eyeballs :)
Dana’s Character will be huge in Japan.
In terms of negotiations besides Dana being conceptually involved and calling the shots there are other more “sensitive” individuals working the details out.
As far as this whole “the cultures are too different and it wont work or translate well…”
I have one rule about the cultural difference variables:
If there’s a fucking mcdonalds working there then the UFC will work there.
by mmalogic on Feb 19, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It all depends on what Zuffa’s actual goals in Japan are. I’m not sure there is enough money for them to be able to take over that market but that doesn’t mean that that is even their goal here. Using a couple of shows to get some eyes on their product to try and increase media recognition and another outlet for programming would take a completely different level of interaction as actually trying to move into the Japanese market as a full time player. Without actually knowing their plans and actual goals it’s hard to give much of an analysis of it’s viability.
Interestingly enough, this is one of the first topics discussed in any business school or marketing program. It’s a bit of a problem when the head of an organization like Zuffa fails to acknowledge it.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Feb 20, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
This thread turned into...
I hope someday we won’t be asking “Who shot Supremacy”, lol!
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Ah, Denver
Don’t make me bust out the LOLCATS.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
We could always use more lolcats.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 19, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Don't make me go all Laser Cats...
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
It's too late
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
I’ve always enjoyed that.
I will play my game beneath the spin light.
by Eugene Schelfaut on Feb 19, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
The “Oh Delicious” pic from the Japanese comic book is a classic.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 21, 2009 5:45 AM EST up reply actions
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