Bloody Elbow February MMA Meta-Rankings: Lightweight
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 6:50 PM EST
in Rankings
182 comments
| Fighter | % | Promotion | Last Rank |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. B.J. Penn | 97 | UFC | 1 |
| 2. Shinya Aoki | 95 |
DREAM | 2 |
| 3. Kenny Florian | 83 |
UFC | 7 |
| 4. Eddie Alvarez | 82 |
DREAM/Bellator |
3 |
| 5. Joachim Hansen | 81 |
DREAM | 5 |
| 6. Sean Sherk | 79 |
UFC | 6 |
| 7. Gesias Cavalcante | 79 |
DREAM | 4 |
| 8. Josh Thomson | 64 |
Strikeforce | 9 |
| 9. Satoru Kitaoka | 60 |
WVR | 14 |
| 10. Tatsuya Kawajiri | 51 |
DREAM | 10 |
| 11. Takanori Gomi | 35 |
WVR | 8 |
| 12. Mitsuhiro Ishida | 26 |
DREAM/Strikforce | 12 |
| 13. Jamie Varner | 25 |
WEC | 18 |
| 14. Tyson Griffin | 25 | UFC |
22 |
| 15. Gray Maynard | 25 | UFC | 13 |
| 16. Eiji Mitsuoka | 24 | WVR | 25 |
| 17. Caol Uno | 22 | DREAM | 17 |
| 18. Jim Miller | 22 | UFC | 23 |
| 19. Roger Huerta | 20 | UFC |
20 |
| 20. Clay Guida | 20 | UFC | 31 |
| 21. Frank Edgar | 19 | UFC | 16 |
| 22. Spencer Fisher | 18 | UFC | 27 |
| 22. Gilbert Melendez | 18 |
Strikeforce | 11 |
| 24. Joe Stevenson | 18 |
UFC | 15 |
| 25. Vitor Ribeiro | 16 |
??? | 19 |
Commentary by Kid Nate: Lightweight is is really the last division left where the UFC has not established a clear dominance over the divsion. Sure UFC champ #1 B.J. Penn is (almost) universally acknowledged to be the best 155lber in the game today, but only two other UFC fighters even make the top 10 -- #3 Kenny Florian and #6 Sean Sherk. Florian is certainly enjoying a surge in the rankings. I credit his demolition of #24 (former #15) Joe Stevenson at UFC 91 and his status as the next to challenge for Penn's title.
Sherk will have to get past the very tough #21 Frank Edgar at UFC 98 and possibly welterweight turned lightweight Diego Sanchez (should Sanchez beat Stevenson this weekend) to get another title shot.
Meanwhile, in a typical move for a Japanese promoter, #2 Shinya Aoki will next be fighting at 170lbs in the DREAM welterweight tournament. Rather than facing any of the top lightweights in DREAM, he'll be next seen against welterweight journeyman John Alessio. Ugh.
His rival from the wonderful DREAM 2008 lightweight GP, #4 Eddie Alvarez has signed with Bellator and will be next seen on ESPN's spanish language channel. Tournament winner #5 Joachim Hansen is fighting over his contract with the owners of DREAM after missing his match with #7 Gesias Cavalcante on New Years Eve due to a last minute concussion.
Meanwhile #8 Josh Thomson will be fighting on Strikeforce's first Showtime card on April 11. Unfortunately it won't be against EliteXC champ K.J. Noons. It seems Noons would rather focus on boxing. Good luck K.J. At least #12 Mitsuhiro Ishida and #22 Gilbert Melendez both seem likely to fight each other on that same card in a great #1 contender match for the Strikeforce belt.
NOTE: The Meta-Rankings are not the subjective opinion of the BloodyElbow team, but rather a compilation of the rankings of over twenty leading MMA web sites. It is our opinion that these are the most informative MMA rankings anywhere.
Based on the premise that opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink, instead of putting up our own subjective fighter rankings, we compile and average the rankings of every source we could find online.
The goal is to show how the MMA community rates the fighters, not to bore you with our opinions.
Be sure and look at the percentage of possible points, they're a much more telling number than the ranking. There's clearly a huge gulf between the top 9 fighters and those that follow.
A total of 40 fighters were ranked in the top 25 by one source or another. For reasons of sanity I only track the top 25 most highly rated fighters.
25 points are awarded for a first place ranking, 16 for a 10th place ranking, 1 for a 25th place ranking. A formula is used to "normalize" the data so all fighters are awarded points from those lists that do not include a full 25 fighters. Each site consulted awards a total of 325 points. Fuller explanation below.
Rankings were compiled from the following 15 sites: Cage Potato, Fight Matrix, Fight Magazine, Five Ounces of Pain, Inside MMA, MMA 4 Real, MMMA Fighting, MMMA on Tap, MMA Playground, MMA Rocks, MMA Weekly, MMA ELO, SSherdog, TAGG Radio, Total MMA, WAMMA.
The normalization scheme as explained by JCS of FightMatrix is here:
The "normalization number" (new name) would be:
120
divided by
(Total Fighters Found in Any List minus 10)Every fighter found somewhere else, but on a Top 10 list would be assigned this number.
The "normalization" number would not apply to a fighter not found on a Top 25 list. They would simply get 0.
So the process would be:
Do all of the Top 25 lists first, #1 = 25, #2 = 24…. #24 = 2, #25 = 1
Do all of the Top 10 lists, same scoring structure.. stops at #10 = 16Figure out that normalization variable.
Fill in the normalization variable to all fighters not found in the Top 10 lists, but found elsewhere.
Do your totals and rank.
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The UFC’s 155 lb division is very uneven. You have an elite guy in Penn, a pair of A level guys in Florian and Sherk and then a lot of depth at that B level.
The DREAM roster is very heavy on the A list guys (I don’t consider Aoki elite…but we won’t get into that whole discussion right now).
155 and heavyweight are clearly the “globally contested” weight classes right now
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 4:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's all well and good...
if you want to pretend that the UFC having 7 of top 10 fighters means that there is the same thing as the situation here at lightweight
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not all that funny. The UFC top ten vs. the rest of the world top ten is ridiculous at 185.
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For reference...
UFC Top 10 (via metas, rankings in parenthesis)
1. Anderson Silva (#1)
2. Yushin Okami (#2)
3. Nathan Marquardt (#5)
4. Dan Henderson (#6)
5. Demian Maia (#8)
6. Rich Franklin (#9)
7. Thales Leitas (#10)
8. Chael Sonnen (#12)
9. Michael Bisping (#14)
10. Patrick Cote (#19)
Rest of world:
1. Robbie Lawler (#3)
2. Gegard Mousasi (#4)
3. Jorge Santiago (#7)
4. Paulo Filho (#11)
5. Yoshihiro Akiyama (#13)
6. Kazuo Misaki (#15)
7. Vitor Belfort (#16)
8. Frank Trigg (#17)
9. Ronaldo Souza (#18)
10. Matt Lindland (#20)
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t exactly call that “clear dominance”. Lawler, Mousasi, Santiago, Akiyama, Misaki, Belfort… these are all world class fighters who could contend immediately in the UFC.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That seems pretty clear to me…all of the UFC fighters are higher ranked than their counterparts.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is a very odd metric to base anything on.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just shows that the average UFC middleweight is higher ranked than the average non UFC middleweight.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, but that doesn’t exactly equate to clear dominance. And anyone reading this thread knows by now how subjective rankings can be. For example, Misaki is 10 spots below Henderson, who he beat decisively.
I look at it as there being multiple elite middleweights (Lawler, Santiago, Misaki, Akiyama) would could immediately step in and compete for Anderson Silva’s title. Okami is a good contender and Marquardt being handed a rematch would be fine with me, but a lot of the most interesting contenders are outside the promotion.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fighters outside of a division are always more interesting than those inside the division, it is harder to make comparisons due to less common opponents.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of guys beyond Zuffa that would breath life into the 185 division. Leites wouldn’t be getting a title shot if Akiyama, Lawler or Santiago were in the UFC. I think it’s pretty even between UFC and abroad (especially if you’re consolidating the other promotions 185ers).
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you...
legitimately think that 185 is even in a UFC vs. the world model I’m not going to argue with you. We’ll simply agree to disagree.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty well advertised
..that I’m not at all convinced by Bisping (Hendo is going to smash him up), I don’t like Sonnen to beat just about anyone in the top 15 and Franklin is gone. Vitor, Jacare, Akiyama, Mousasi (though he’s moving on, apparently), Misaki and Lawler are a pretty stout bunch. For me, it’s very close…
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sonnen...
is way overrated. I’ll give you that. And Franklin cancels out Mousasi in the “they’re gone” rankings.
I am, however, very solidly on the “Bisping is for real” bandwagon and am pretty confident in picking him over Hendo.
That international list is very solid and I will give you this much:
Some of those names would be ranked a few slots higher if they signed with the UFC (even without having a fight for the company). I do not pretend that there is no bias in the rankings of many of the included sites.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The rebuttal to this is that most of the higher ranked non-UFC fighters are probably higher ranked than they would be if they were in the UFC. Robbie Lawler for example.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's true...
Lawler is a perfect example of that. But honestly I think that the other guys Vitor, Jacare, and Misaki especially are a handful in the UFC.
Lawler would get beaten by (from the UFC roster…completely subjective opinions here) Silva, Okami, Marquardt, Henderson, Maia, Leitas and Bisping
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bisping over Lawler? Really? At least when I watch Robbie fight, I get the impression that he LIKES to hit people even if it means getting hit back. You can’t deny he is a very “game” striker.
Bisping gives me that Marcus Davis/Mike Swick bully vibe… he doesn’t seem to be down for staying in the pocket if the other guy starts hitting him back.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
that Lawler is the more “gritty” guy. But I think Bisping could pick him apart en route to a decision.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if we’re making arbitrary comparisons, lets go with just the guys who are (in my opinion) not just top 10, but title threats:
UFC:
1. Anderson Silva (#1)
2. Yushin Okami (#2)
3. Nathan Marquardt (#5)
4. Dan Henderson (#6)
5. Demian Maia (#8)
6. Thales Leitas (#10)
Rest of world:
1. Robbie Lawler (#3)
2. Gegard Mousasi (#4)
3. Jorge Santiago (#7)
4. Yoshihiro Akiyama (#13)
5. Kazuo Misaki (#15)
6. Vitor Belfort (#16)
You could argue for one roster over the other, but again, no clear dominance.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
but my arbitrary comparison was better.
I will say that the more I think about it the more I’m convinced that it is a touch closer than I initially made it sound.
The UFC owns WW and LHW.
The real global weightclasses right now are LW and HW.
MW is…a lot of guys who are hard to figure out so it really depends on which side of the argument you’re taking.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Given where this discussion is taking place, it makes sense.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say...
7 of the top 10 guys is pretty clear. But with Mousasi moving up the #2 guy on that list goes away. I really don’t like playing the UFC vs. everyone else game. But I think in terms of “divisional dominance” the UFC has the 185 division pretty well in hand. It’s not exactly the same as at 205…but it’s pretty strong.
It doesn’t help that I don’t think Lawler is really the third best middleweight in the world also. But that’s neither here nor there. I’m just saying in terms of the rankings..etc
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know if Lawler even cracks my top 10
by #5mmafan on Feb 16, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We call that a ‘gap’ where I come from (and Mousasi is probably done at 185)
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Lightweight is is really the last division left where the UFC has not established a clear dominance over the division”
Doesn’t Affliction have the top 3 Heavyweights according to the meta-rankings?
by Evil-Uncle on Feb 16, 2009 4:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm talking about having a majority of the top 10 fighters
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 16, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can anyone tell me how many lightweight fights B.J. Penn has had in the last 5 years?
Actually, I’ll answer my own question…
Three.
Totally. Fucking. Ridiculous.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 4:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You’re going to have a lot of people here bitching at you about this, but you’re completely right.
by FRANKIE on Feb 16, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Sherk has had 4.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 16, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not fair dude
That’s in a little over two years, with a six month suspension sandwiched in. Since when does time and number of fights equate to legitimacy and ability? Didn’t seem to matter when Fedor had one fight last year.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Comparing the most dominant MMA fighter of all time to Sean Sherk = comedy gold.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let us not use his name in vain
Your passive aggression as it concerns all things Fedor/international MMA is far more amusing.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Aggression? I just think it is a funny comparison to make.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you’re incapable of thinking straight when you feel that someone is attacking the Emperor.. But I was making the case that it doesn’t matter. If you’re good, you’re good. Lay down your spear, Fedor is sleeping safely in his castle.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Rec'd.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Feb 16, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is my point, it doesn’t matter. Damn, there wasn’t even a LW division in the UFC for the guys to fight in.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 17, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And he’s had three in the last year, which is much more relevant than the last five.
by Mike Fagan on Feb 16, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, it’s kind of funny how #4 ranked Eddie Alvarez (who beat #5 ranked Joachim Hansen and #10 ranked Tatsuya Kawajiri) is BELOW #3 ranked Kenny Florian (who beat #19 ranked Roger Heurta and #24 ranked Joe Stevanson).
Totally. Fucking. Ridiculous.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 4:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And Alvarez then got mangled by Aoki in a little more than a minute. And Aoki himself got thumped by Hansen.
I imagine part of it is that Alvarez is coming off a disappointing loss, while Florian is coming off a very impressive performance.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the difference is that Alvarez fought the best lightweight in MMA, and Florian didn’t.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are out of your fucking mind if you have Aoki over BJ. BJ would paint the wall with Aoki.
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate littly baby J…but he would kick the shit out of Aoki.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed…and agreed.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Feb 16, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t usually like to state things like this but I feel that it is the most accurate way of portraying that potential match:
BJ Penn would stomp a mudhole in Shinya Aoki. And that is with his magic rainbow pants.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BJ would hurt Aoki
You can’t be serious. He would dispel the magic in his pants and paint the mat in his blood.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol at “the magic in his pants”!!
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 17, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the problem with the LW rankings all over MMA.
All the top ranked fighters were in Japan a few years ago, and there hasn’t been a chance for the UFC guys to fight ranked fighters. You can’t just go by skill level, and you can’t just go by strength of schedule (especially in the lw division) you need to find a combination of the 2 to come up with rankings.
by Phildo on Feb 16, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can anyone tell me how many lightweight fights Eddie Alvarez has had in the last 5 years?
Actually, I’ll answer my own question…
Totally. Fucking. Ridiculous.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha. Self-pwnt. Eddie has had only four fights in the last five years at LW.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and Eddie Alvarez isn’t ranked #1 at lightweight.
However, thanks for pointing out that Eddie, as someone who just arrived at the lightweight scene, has, in fact, been more active than B.J. in the last year. That more than solidifies my argument.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That BJ Penn is lazy?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he is arguing that you can’t be ranked number if Eddie Alvarez has fought more at LW than you over the past five years. :p
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just gonna go with BJ Penn is lazy ;)
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this whole thing is getting confusing.
Am I supposed to think BJ Penn is lazy, or incompetent? Is Eddie Alvarez better than him because he fought more than him? If so, doesn’t that make Jeremy Horn the reigning, defending, undisputed king of MMA?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Feb 16, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Travis Fulton might have something to say about that.
by FRANKIE on Feb 17, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These rankings are fucking crazy. Who here actually bets Alvarez over Sherk?
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 5:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not me...
I think Sherk is right behind Aoki and Penn in worst possible matchups for Alvarez’s skillset
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sherk is a terrifying and uneven match up for a ton of dudes at 155.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love pasta and I’d put my money on Sherk. To be fair, that is a close fight.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you can’t sub Alvarez, you are in trouble.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 16, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck no
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ranking are not predictive, they’re representative. How fucking hard is that for you people to understand?
by FRANKIE on Feb 17, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. Most rankings are descriptive rather than predictive, so it seems silly to argue their validity on predictive terms.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 17, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alvarez and Hansen over Sherk? Sorry, no.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Feb 16, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Quick…off the top of your head…who has Sean Sherk beaten at lightweight in the past 3 years?
P.S. ROID WINS DON’T COUNT
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you're going to take away...
“roid wins” I’m not counting a single one of Aoki’s wins (Pants) or anyone else in Japan since I have no tests telling me they’re clean.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
NSAC and the majority of MMA regulating bodies don’t test HGH. For someone to assume that American MMA is some sort of pure, non-tainted entity is just ridiculous. That’s just the sports world we live in.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying...
the US is clean by any stretch. I’m saying that you can’t say “I’m not counting roid wins” while also saying “sure, Japan isn’t clean”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He beat Franca, who also juiced, so it evens out…sort of…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Feb 16, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I THINK CAPPING MY POSTS IS A REALLY GOOD WAY TO GET MY POINT ACROSS
No seriuosly, I think Sherk would take either one. I don’t feel like either could stop his takedowns and they’re not going to sub him..
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Feb 16, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Because he got popped once and the other guy was roiding too. Go figure, huh?
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 wrongs = 1 right
That’s a good thing to keep in mind in life.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're teaching me life lessons
Yeah d00d, that’s what I’m saying.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jacaré v Aoki in the welterweight tournament
We can only hope
by MonkeyCHops on Feb 16, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jacare isn’t in the Welterweight tournament.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah i misunderstood the post on the main page
by MonkeyCHops on Feb 16, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki is I don't know about Jacare
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 16, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See here is the problem with rankings…
do you go with perceived skill… or with what they have actually accomplished??
Penn has accomplished very little at LW in the last few years. Hes beaten Pulver, Stevenson, and Sherk. Not exactly murderous row. Same with Florian. Same with Sherk.
But… if you go by “who i think will win”… i think penn and sherk would fuck up alvarez and aoki with ease.
shrug
by dbcb on Feb 16, 2009 5:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Each...
site does their rankings differently which is why the Meta Rankings work so well…because they give the sense of what the majority of “respected” rankings say.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know that Fight Matrix is “objective”, but if their algorithm thinks that Eddie Alvarez is 10th, Kitaoka is 4th, Mitsuoka is 8th, Kawajiri is 25th, they might want to look into reworking that thing.
I find myself being very hot and cold with their rankings. HW is good, but LW is confusing as hell.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 6:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And Fight Magazine and MMA ELO are complete insanity.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s because the LW division is so divided.
Look at the old fight lines, there’s so little crossover between UFC fighters and Japan fighters, that it’s hard to come up with any sort of ranking. I’d expect an computer based one to look totally different from a different kind.
by Phildo on Feb 16, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll have a new one up within the next couple weeks hopefully.
by Mike Fagan on Feb 16, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Our points are transparent..
Which means they move division-to-division. We had Kitaoka ranked above Gomi before he won…
BTW, what has Kawajiri done lately except lose to everyone in the Top 20?
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Before I go any farther, I’m gonna say this: looking back on it, my post was more confrontational than I meant it to be. Sorry about that. Also, I think I need to explain my “objective” comment. My problem with you calling your rankings “objective” is two fold. Firstly, everybody thinks that their rankings are objective, unless they just don’t understand what rankings are. Anybody who puts out a list of rankings has to believe that they are objectively true, otherwise they wouldn’t care to argue about them. So I think that calling your rankings objective is redundant. Secondly, when you say that yours is unbiased because it is computerized, you imply that there is a typological difference between your rankings and those of other, non-computerized systems. I don’t think that there is. In both cases, the individual assigns different values to different aspects of a person’s record: quality of opposition, quality of performance, etc., etc. In each case, a person creates an equation. The fact that you plug your information into a computer at some point doesn’t really change the equation, which you set up in the first place. The principal difference between the two systems is that one is much more complex (that isn’t bad; it’s probably good given the complexity of the sport).
Honestly, I really like your site and respect the ambitious nature of the endeavor. I just don’t know how I could both completely agree and almost wholly disagree, when it is the same equation is both circumstances.
More to the point:
I’d say that Kawajiri is roughly in the same boat that Uno is in: tough, capable fighters who will lose to elite competition. The fact that Uno is rated higher given his recent victory over Ishida makes sense; however, I don’t see how there is a ten space gap between the two. He’s eight steps lower than Jorge Masvidal. What has that guy done to out point Kawajiri? And has Clay Guida fared any better against top-20 guys? He was beaten in a close fight with Griffin, but has lost to both Din Thomas and Roger Huerta who aren’t even ranked, hasn’t beaten anybody ranked in your system (aside from Josh Thompson in 2006 when he wasn’t ranked where he is now) and he’s at 13.
And what has Kitaoka done to be a top-5 LW? And what did Alvarez not do to only be 10th?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said, points are transparent. When Kitaoka came to Lightweight, he didn’t start at the bottom… once he beat Mitsuoka, he was in the bottom of the Top 10, as he already had a great deal of points built up at Welterweight. Then, he beat Gomi… and he is where he is now.
Alvarez is just coming off a loss. Lightweight is a tight division, and losing a few points can mean multiple ranks in our system.
You’ll find Japanese fighters get a lot of credit on our system… as opposed to the more subjective lists that focus on UFC fighters. Its a numbers game, what more can I say?
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you handle situations like this where there are two fairly separate groups with minimal crossover and one has been ranked before the other one was formed? Like what if there was no crossover at all?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So points carry over between different weights? I suppose that would be where some of the disagreement between us is stemming from.
Also, I don’t think that your system is any more or less subjective than anybody else (I think that both groups make objective claims). You, like other systems (including those that you call subjective), assign a value to a particular characteristic and setting that value is not typologically different than somebody saying that they think a UD is better than a SD and rating it more highly without the use of points/computers. Additionally, you construct the formula itself, the framework into which all the values are inserted. All the pluses, minuses, etc. That again is not categorically different than these other systems that you are referring to. I’m not saying your system is crap. I’m saying that both systems are essentially the same, however, yours is much more complex.
Lastly, how do you judge whether or not your system is an accurate account of the actual divisional structure? One would have to, otherwise any formula would do, as long as consistency is maintained. What is the standard you use to make sure your system isn’t flawed?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest difference is that we know what value he is assigning and we know he’s assigning it the same regardless of the fighter.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s objective in the sense that it’s not the opinions of editors or voters – it’s a statistical compilation. The methodology behind it is fairly legit, and since the formulas are displayed, I’m sure someone on here would point out if the math was flawed. It’s more useful as a gauge for how the community views the divisions as a whole. Of course, with statistics, it’s easy to have bizarre results from the data. A film site that does the same thing every year with polls, lists, etc for the 1000 Greatest Films of All-Time.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Feb 16, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure someone on here would point out if the math was flawed.
That is what I’m doing.
It’s more useful as a gauge for how the community views the divisions as a whole.
I’m talking about Fight Matrix’s rankings, not the meta-rankings.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about the actual methodology do you find fault with? You’ve expressed disagreement with the results not the process.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This may be because I am about as as adept as a comatose geriatric at this “internet surfing” you kids do these days, but I haven’t seen the equation in question. I checked the FAQ page and such, but was unable to locate it. I don’t know what the points correspond to, let alone what they mean (though I have deduced that more is better; I am a super sleuth eh?). Which is to say, I don’t know the process.
So all I have at my disposal is the results. Essentially, I question the equation because it led to results that I disagree with.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought you were talking about BE’s meta-rankings, which are up top, but no, I haven’t seen fightmatrix’s math.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Feb 16, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can see their rankings in the break down above or here.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Naturally you will disagree with some of our results
because a computerized system will never be perfect.. either will a subjective one. Each has its benefits. A computer system (sans bugs) will view all like results the same way and react as such, but will not recognize the fact that Coleman is 44 years old and that some may rank him even lower due to his advanced age.
A computerized system depends on norms, because no matter how much effort I pump in, or how much skill I have.. some scenarios will never be properly accounted for, some data will never be 100% accurate.. so on and so forth. I honed my craft assisting at BoxRec until the system got a little bit too outlandish for me to continue to work on.
If you want to get into a detailed discussion, come over to our forum. I don’t post the formula because its not just a formula. The software that compiles the rankings is dozens of pages of code.
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it sucks.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For example, just below I said discussion twice in two adjacent sentences, and even ended both with it. Therefore, I sound like a third-grader who hasn’t learned any synonym for “discussion.”
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool. I’ll have to come by, because I have really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks for the discussion.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
You can argue with our results, but my attention to detail is second to none when it comes to the database and the rating system. I try to account for every variable possible that is represented by strongly accurate data… which isn’t always possible.
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Example
Try to find a Top 25 Flyweight list elsewhere =)
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t wait to see what that looks like a year from now, what with the WEC opening up a division.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love the Flyweight list..
It took quite a while scouting all those Flyweight match-ups out… How many people have heard of Kevin Belingon (#13)? And its hard to believe there are actually two Americans on the list.
BTW – I look for Shoujou to take Kojima out in March, finally displacing him.
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you say that? Are they fighting soon?
I don’t know too much about Shooto, but I do love Mamoru’s fro.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe they fight in March. They are practically tied in points over on our side, and Kojima’s recent draw with Taitano (who drew with Urushitani) that Shoujou just submitted.
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
Mamoru beat Shoujou in early 08
by JCS_FM on Feb 16, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Shoujou wins too. I’m tired of BJ. He’s gone downhill since leaving AACC. I was crushed when he somehow drew Urush the second time (robbery) and even more gutted when he pulled out the last second win against Mamoru. Hopefully Shoujou takes out his 132 lb wannabe butt.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MMA ELO has one. It’s topped by a female fighter, but they have one.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah – my bad – misread your post. What do you find wrong with the math & equations?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Feb 16, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Educate me on DREAM
I know the benefits of pants if you want more traction, but do they allow that in UFC? Also, is it just me or do DREAM grapplers get crazy with glove-grabbing? I thought that was a no-no.
by Farthammer on Feb 16, 2009 6:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The pants that Aoki wears..
are illegal in sanctioned MMA competition in the US
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I figured no way they allow that in UFC. Any insight on glove-grabbing?
by Farthammer on Feb 16, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Glove-grabbing is illegal under the unified rules. No idea about whether it’s illegal in Dream or not.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile, in a typical move for a Japanese promoter, #2 Shinya Aoki will next be fighting at 170lbs in the DREAM welterweight tournament. Rather than facing any of the top lightweights in DREAM,
Uhhhh, BJ Penn hasn’t fought a LW in about a year? So, it’s OK for BJ to take on WW in the US.
by bignerd on Feb 16, 2009 6:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that bothered me also
from a pure rankings-obsession standpoint but I understood the matchmaking rationale. Aoki at 170 doesn’t do much for me.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 16, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s cool with me if you hate both moves, I can understand that.
by bignerd on Feb 16, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Penn didn't bother me as much
Because I felt that he’d cleared out the LW division fairly well (Sherk > Florian IMO).
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Feb 16, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the godly love for Penn to an extent, but how is beating sherk and stevenson cleaning out a division?
by dbcb on Feb 16, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I more with you. I think there are better LW in UFC than Sherk and especially Stevenson.
by bignerd on Feb 16, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sherk is the Rich Franklin to BJ’s Anderson Silva, imo – I think Sherk pretty much beats up any LW not named BJ Penn (sorry, KenFlo).
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That does sound a bit funny. He cleared the LW division, he beat Sherk (basically). Joe Daddy? Eh, to think he is the 2nd or 3rd best LW in the UFC.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 16, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that the division..
is eating itself. It is full of guys who look great against a certain guy and then get beat their next time out. So there is no established hierarchy in the division. You’ve got Penn – then Sherk, Florian – then a bunch of guys who can’t get past their own level consistently. So it isn’t that he cleared the division by beating everyone…it’s just that there weren’t a real laundry list of challengers that wouldn’t have felt forced.
If he beats Florian…then what? Sherk again? The next highest ranked guy would be Tyson Griffin and honestly I don’t buy Griffin as a legitimate threat to BJ right now…not to mention he just lost to Sherk. Then it’s either Maynard or Miller and one of them is going to lose to the other but either guy isn’t title challenger worthy with a win.
Sherk is an amazing roadblock right now because you shouldn’t get a title shot without beating him…but other than BJ as subo said…there isn’t anyone in the UFC that I see beating Sherk more than 4 out of 10 times reliably.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I am still hoping Edgar beats Sherk. I know it is a hell of a long shot but I think it could be possible.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No way
I’d bet any amount of dollarz that Sherk beats Frankie. He’s much too strong for him.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If they were the same size I would easily pick Edgar over Sherk…unfortunately Edgar should be fighting at 145.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Edgar were ten feet tall
I’d pick him to beat Cheick Kongo.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why the Sherk v. Edgar match will probably look like the Maynard v. Edgar match. But Frankie would be an instant title contender at 145 in the WEC, though probably wouldn’t get the same coin per fight over there.
by Estrada on Feb 16, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Maynard/Miller will crown a helluva next #1 contender for the belt, and I don’t shit on Sherk or Edgar (or Griffin, for that matter). I love the division.
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Miller...
is that I want to see him get one more fight before I am ready to see him given to Penn. I love Jim Miller and I’ve been shouting about the guy since before he came to the UFC, but unless he runs through Maynard like he is nothing I’m not ready to see him fight for the title yet.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who’s next after Florian if Miller wins?
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said...
the division is eating itself and we’re left without people I consider to be true title contender level guys.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we’re totally ignoring the fact that 1) Aoki is Shoot Welterweight Champion, and 2) Aoki is a man who can make his own decisions. (And let me preempt any “DREAM-made-the-decision” replies by say, no, shut up.)
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see how that is a typical Japanese promoter move. To the contrary, Aoki, like King Mo, has a special sense of dedication to his promotion, and has stated he wants to be in every show possible. DREAM still has plenty of top lightweights waiting for him once the WWGP is over.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huerta at #19???
WTF? Huerta’s only notable win was over Clay Guida and he was getting his ass handed to him for the majority of that fight. Frankie Edgar, Gilbert Melendez, Joe Daddy, Shaolin, would all demolish Huerta with ease. Huerta shouldn’t be on this list.
by MMAEruption on Feb 16, 2009 7:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and yet...
he is.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm simply saying...
that he is. I don’t think there is much by way of reasoning that can be given to justify his ranking other than the win over Guida. But with him saying he’s more or less done fighting and the loss to Florian and no significant “non-guida” resume…I can’t really justify his position.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but this thread is an example of why individual rankings mean little to nothing. Emotion plays to much of a factor, whether it be love or hatred.
Compilations like Meta, are the best way to see what people are thinking for the most part.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Feb 16, 2009 7:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If you were given even odds for a Thomson vs. Florian fight… would ANYONE really pick Kenny at this point?
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 7:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ABSOLUTELY
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a great fight.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 16, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on smoogy, you should know what they were going to answer.
:)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 16, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just as everyone should not be surprised by what you and smoogy would choose as well.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Feb 16, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think its funny that anyone would look at the kickboxing skills of Thomson and Florian and believe they are on the same level.
Then again, I suppose most people watch every Florian fight and probably have missed a lot of Thomson’s work.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got Florian as well
But it would be a really good fight.
"I hit [Evensen], and you could just see it in his head. He went, 'Oh, man. We don't have to do this anymore. I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go home now." -Pat "The Real Techno Viking" Berry
by Blackout612 on Feb 16, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thomson is very very solid...
and he looked great in the Melendez fight but I don’t see him being better in the all around game. But I think a lot of people do look at the recent resume and see a difference
Since 2007:
Florian:
6-0, 4 submission, 1 TKO, 1 decision . Wins over Mishima, Alvin Robinson, Din Thomas, Lauzon, Huerta, and Stevenson
Thomson:
4-0, 1 submission, 2 TKO, 1 decision. Wins over Nick Gonzalez, Adam Lynn, Gilbert Melendez, and Ashe Bowman.
Now I don’t want to sound like I’m only talking shit about Thomson’s opponents but Gonzalez is not a real high level win. Lynn is a guy who could only go 1-2 in the IFL. And Bowman just lost on the Wargods show.
It would be a damn fine fight but you can’t fault people for looking at resumes and saying “Kenny beat the better competition” and yeah…I think he’s the better all around fighter. So I’d take Florian in a very entertaining fight. But to act like people are out of their minds because they’re not rushing to pick Thomson in this fantasy fight is a bit much.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah, Florian’s got some sick wins over two natural featherweights…Awesome.
by AnonymousA on Feb 16, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad...
that you’re going for productive conversation rather than confrontational posting. And I’m also glad that you pointed to 2 of florian’s wins in the UFC rather than try to defend Thomson’s resume. Thanks bro. You’re a valued member due to the depth of your points.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Rec’d and rec’d. I also don’t see how anyone could act like picking Florian (or Thomson, for that matter) would be out of their minds like it’s a gimme fight or something.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said anyone is out of their minds, I just believe if you’ve been watching their fights, you’d have to realize that Thomson is more seasoned and more skilled in striking, which is almost certainly where the fight would take place.
The recent wins are more of an indication of how Strikeforce was struggling to find elite opponents for Josh. But as far as those two resumes go, Thomson beat the best guy on either llist in Melendez, and he didn’t just win, he totally shut the guy down in shockingly effective fashion. I’ll take that over accumulating a number of decent wins over mid-level UFC names.
by smoogy on Feb 16, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For sure...
the win over Melendez is up there with GSP vs. Penn II, GSP vs. Sherk, Fedor vs. Nogueira, Silva vs. Franklin I…etc with fights where I was shocked at not only the winner pulling the victory but the effective, dominant way that he was able to do it (and yes…I’m leaving some other similar fights off but I didn’t want to make another list).
But you did say:
would ANYONE really pick Kenny at this point?
The emphasis on “anyone” made it seem like you were saying people would be a little crazy to pick Florian.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s how I read it to be as well. Don’t forget to add Guida/Thomson to your list of fights up there. :p
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I checked on the betting lines for Silva/Franklin I, and it was appx Silva +160/Franklin -200. How times change…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Feb 16, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cerrone better be on here by the beginning of 2010. That’s about the most impressive 1-1 start in the big leagues (McCullough, Varner) I’ve seen.
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 7:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Soko...
a bit more impressive. But I get your point ;)
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or...
Houston Alexander.
man..talk about guys who crashed and burned after said impressive start.
Oh I totally misread your thing “most impressive 1-1 start” I thought it was most impressive first two fights. I’m an ass..ignore me
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Deal.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Feb 16, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Knock on wood that Cerrone doesn’t follow up his impressive start in the same fashion as Sokoudjou.
by ilostmydog on Feb 16, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cerrone’s got a gas tank – he won the fifth against Varner – so there goes that fear.
by subo on Feb 16, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that...
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 16, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/16/761162/uno-returns-against-fisher
Its already a fan post, although not official.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 16, 2009 9:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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