Are Jiu Jitsu guy's working against themselves?
by drano on Feb 1, 2009 2:13 PM EST
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PrintAfter watching Bj Penn vs. St. Pierre II again I got to thinking, why are Jiu Jitsu guys so eager to pull guard? When GSP was grabbing those doubles Bj would scramble for guard instead of trying to get to his feet. When I started to think about it this happens all the time, Mir vs. Lesnar, Gsp vs. Serra II, etc. Is a strong guard really an offensive position in MMA? Are Jiu Jitsu guys setting themselves up for failure? Before I get a bunch of comments on how stupid I am. I am the first to acknowledge that being in guard is as good as it gets when on your back and many fights are won off of submissions from guard but the percentage of wins from guard can't be anywhere near the percentage for wins from any other position. Why then scramble for guard instead of to get back up?
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You are stupid!
J/K! I think you ask a very valid question. My personal opinion, is that they are looking to get to a “safe” position, though anymore, in mma, guard isn’t as safe in many instances. I think GSP proved that last night. The thing is, what are you doing with the guard afterward? No sweeps, no sub attempts, etc. Of course, much of the credit for that, has to go to GSP for shutting down BJs game. And it isn’t that easy to simply get up, but I understand what you are saying.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Maybe I didn’t give enough credit to GSP his guard passes were absolutely brilliant but let’s think about the Diaz vs. Parisyan fight lot of scrambles and Diaz wasn’t content to work for guard but back to his feet and it made for a closer fight. I’m just trying to illustrate that maybe some of the better Jiu Jitsu guys are getting into some bad habits having a little bit too much confidence in their guard.
No, I think you are right on. I just also think that we need to give some credit for the opponents making it hard for them to work their games. BJ kept trying to set up for a triangle or arm bar, but GSP kept his arms safe and continually made BJ move his guard back down.
I also think this is just part of the evolution of the sport. rarely can a fighter depend solely on his base anymore. A wrestler cannot just wrestle, a striker cannot just strike, a bjj guy cannot just depend on bjj, etc… I think in GSP, we are seeing a guy that has developed all aspects of the sport, to perhaps their highest level and is setting the standard for what the great fighters of the future will be.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
True, True
Seems like it wasn’t that long ago Rich Franklin was the blue print for the future fighter. Anyway I don’t know just think maybe Royce’s legacy of his guard maybe wearing off. Wanna see if maybe BJ’s destruction might influence other’s feelings about the guard guys like Hazelett, Maia, and Almeida seemed like a lot of their opponents fear their guard maybe we’ll see a change.
Not everyone can pass someone’s guard, let alone BJ Penn’s guard, the way that GSP did last night.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I disagree to a point...
I don’t think anyone can pass a guard as well as GSP did but when you account strikes and basic wrestling posture which most should have by the time they reach any professional level of fighting then yes anyone in the UFC should be able to pass a guard.
I've said many times
(probably elsewhere) that the guard is the best bottom position available to a fighter on his back for attempting to finish the fight. The problem is, as this post points out, the pass—>GnP game of today’s
MMA has just gotten too good for the BJJ practitioners, and BJ’s fall yesterday was reminiscent of Sherk/Franca and other fights which have displayed best-in-the-world wrestling vs. best-in-the-world BJJ.
BJJ has it’s place, of course, but as an offensive system or something you can rely on/build your gameplan around, it has effectively lost its value. It’s still the best way to finish off a noob, or pull a hail Mary if you’re getting your ass handed to you, but it no longer allows fighters to dominate MMA.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
As of February 1st 2009 the last time someone locked in a submission of their back would probably be Sato’s heel hook of Ohori at Pancrase Changing Tour 1 less than 24 hours ago.
can’t argue with facts but I stand by that success from the guard is rare enough that you can’t really consider it an offensive position
Jacare
and Maia?
Really do you know how many people BJ has subbed by a way other than RNC? Exactly 1. Ground allergic Bang Ludwig by Arm Triangle, (which is done from the top.) So pretty much BJ has never subbed anybody from the guard ever because its not his strength. Probably because of the same arrogance that got his ass smoked by GSP. Other guys still use it to great success.
Gimme 1 Round!
Jacare has ended 4 out of 12 fights from his back Maia 3 out of 12 these are some of the most decorated BJJ guys in the world not exactly great success finishing from the back
You don't have to finish every fight from your back
to be successful. Doesn’t mean its not effective. Joe Frazier didn’t knock everybody out with his left hook. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a devastating punch.
Gimme 1 Round!
Yes by a guy he's also Gogo'd from his back
And he also dominated JZ and Caol Uno from his back and subbed several others from it.
Gimme 1 Round!
Agreed, but…
I have a couple of points to this. First at LW, he is so dominant that he is rarely on his back. Second at WW or above, he is now much smaller and less powerful, making it harder to get into position to submit from his back. Not saying this is the end-all explanation, but certainly explains it away to an extent.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Obviously Penn was getting pushed around with some superior size and strength but beyond Bj and GSP I can’t think of anyone who has really used the guard as a completely offensive position in a long time
I watch plenty of MMA
but like it or not UFC is the big leagues and my argument is full guard can’t really be considered an offensive position in the big leagues
You obviously don't do jiu jitsu either
You just have to know 1. What the fuck you’re doing and 2. Who the fuck you’re doing it to and their strengths.
Pulling guard on Fedor or GSP is fuckin stupid. Pulling guard on most other guys not so bad.
Gimme 1 Round!
It goes beyond simply losing rounds now – against the elite GnP games today, your back is simply not the place to be, be you a Diaz or a Penn.
This is an understatement. As these guys have advanced their skills, you really don’t want to be out of position. Imagine how miserable BJ was last night with a big, powerful GSP mauling him from the top position. GSP is a great wrestler in MMA and in my mind explains why guys like BJ or Shogun seem gassed after a couple of rounds. Having a powerful, good wrestler on top of you is unbelievably tiring, especially if they are also pounding on you, lol.
So I agree Subo, 99/100 times the back is not the place to be.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
I've often wondered why guys are so quick
to pull full-guard. Half-guard, while basically a purely defensive position, allows for more reversals and escapes than full-guard. The main goal, in a high-level MMA fight, will soon become escaping and returning to the feet, or reversing position and scrambling using ‘sloppy jits’ (what we mat-monkeys like to refer to as ‘good wrestling.’)
Some people will claim this is all overreaction, that GSP is a unique case, that BJ had excuses, blah blah blah. Of course there is some legitimacy to these points, but the greater point is that we’ve seen an evolution at the top of the MMA hill which has essentially neutralized BJJ as an offensive threat.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Diaz would have won the fight if he had managed to get onto his back more often. Guida’s GnP isn’t elite, it was non existent. He won the fight by being able to hold on to Diaz’s back for 3 rounds.
It’s certainly more likely, especially given his rather active guard.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Feb 2, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
I’ll bring up the numbers again you may not agree but Diaz has finished 5 of 13 fights off his back I’m not taking anything away from him as a fighter but more often then not he doesn’t finish from his back.
Oversimplification
Is what that basically is. You’re comparing finishes from one spot (off his back) to finishes or wins everywhere else i.e. from Standing position, from top position in someone’s gaurd, from side control, from mount, on someone’s back, etc…
Oversimplification maybe...
But my argument is maybe it’s not the best idea to scramble for guard considering that points are neither awarded for getting there and the percentage of fights that are finished from there.
Think about the money....
If I’m a BJJ black belt, and I feel like my BJJ is better than the guy I’m fighting… I feel that stand-up is evenish, but I think I can catch this guy in a submission…. Say I’m an undercard guy, who’s getting 7k just to show and 7k if I win. There aren’t many submissions in a night, and often times only one if any, (none the last UFC)… there is often a HUGE bonus check for submission of the night. If any of the undercard guys had a submission it would have been a 65k bonus. That’s a huge check, and kinda worth it if you ask me….
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