Jon Jones to protest loss according to his management on the UG:
"Let's be clear, Jon is not "unhappy" he feels as all things happen for a reason. We are protesting the L because we felt that Matt Hamill could not effectively communicate why he could not continue."
"The rules state that an intentional foul and that the fighter cannot continue based on injury sustained from the foul. Hamill could not contnue due to a broken shoulder."
"Jon should have been deducted a point for the accidental illegal blow. Matt should have been treated like we treat the Brazilians and given 5 minutes to regroup and offered a translator so the ref could make the right call and understand Matt could not continue due to his shoulder injury not the blow."
"This should be a NC for both fighters but not a loss. Hammil continued with an injured Shoulder and only complained once the action was stopped (warrior) but the fight was stopped based on the shoulder injury in our opinion."
-- photo via Dave Mandel at Sherdog.com
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Actually, he has a case. The fight was stopped due to the shoulder injury. The point deduction was taken away due to the illegal blows, but Hamill ultimately couldn’t continue due to the shoulder injury.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
They could say (and have said) the fight was stopped because of the cut.
That, plus I don’t think NSAC has the ability to overturn decisions unless there is a drug test involved.
They implemented instant replay since the Johnson/Burns fiasco, but I don’t remember them saying anything about overturning decisions.
Well, Hamill shouldn’t have said a word.
Now, they can go back and say… well, he couldn’t continue due to his shoulder. Well, the illegal blows were point deducted, the fight should have resumed, but Hamill quit due to shoulder injury.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 8, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t matter what people say.
The fight was stopped because of the cut, and that’s the story they can stick to.
They aren’t going to go back and say Gonzaga should have beat Randy by TKO because he broke his arm, they probably aren’t going to change this one.
They can stick to it but it makes no sense. They stopped it because Hamill said he couldn’t continue. He couldn’t continue because of the shoulder, NOT the cut. Maz didn’t do his due diligence to figure out why Matt couldn’t continue.
Regardless of all of this, I believe you’re right about the NSAC not overturning referee decisions so it’ll probably end up with an “I’m sorry” like the Burns vs Johnson fight.
Kieth kiezer said in the post presser that the fight was stopped from the cut from the illegal strike and not the shoulder. He explained it pretty well actually. Fan house has a video of kiezer explaining the whole ruling to both jones and the press.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
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by ekc on Dec 8, 2009 1:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He has a good argument but probably wont get it overturned; dealing with bureaucratic bodies like NSAC is a nightmare.
The fight was stopped because of the cut From the illegal strike and not the shoulder.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Dec 8, 2009 1:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Watch the video again, Maz askes Hamill if he can continue long before any doctors look at him...
and Hamill says no.
That’s what I thought…….I’m reading through these posts stating the fight was stopped due to the cut thinking I missed something
because keizer came out and directly stated the cut caused the stoppage
But how can that be true when no drs had even looked at the cut yet. Mazz went directly off of Hamill saying he can’t continue. Without Mazz knowing about the shoulder injury he probably just assumed it was because of the cut. That being said no1 except Hamill knows the reason he couldn’t continue, so while Jones does have an argument he won’t get this overturned.
by xbuckeyex05 on Dec 8, 2009 2:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the fight was stopped due to the cut
http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/12/06/tuf-post-fight-video-jon-jones-kimbo-slice-keith-kizer-look/
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Dec 8, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
When you’re on your back and the ref is above you yelling something, i’m sure you can make a guess as to what he wants to know regardless of whether you can hear him or not. Especially if you’re not exactly new to that kind of situation.
the guy is deaf and blinded by blood. he had no way of communicating effectively with the ref, and they have a fair point in saying he should have have 5 minutes and a translator before shouting questions at him.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Kos got plenty of time after AJ’s knee shot
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
5 minutes for any illegal blow. Look it up.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
i see, people had said it was only for groin strikes and not for eye pokes before.
Reading it now, it says any foul that does not involve “concussive impact to the head” which these elbows did, so asking for 5 minutes here is not a given.
http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/12/06/tuf-post-fight-video-jon-jones-kimbo-slice-keith-kizer-look/
Kizer explains it very clearly
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Dec 8, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I love the "(warrior)" part in parenthesis.
Matt Hammil is a seriously tough mother fucker for not tapping once his shoulder popped out. Granted, Jon Jones didn’t give him a lot of time to tap or think or do anything but get his face smashed after taking the mount.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I don't blame him.
The fight should have been stopped 30 seconds earlier.
by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 PM EST reply actions
Hamill said he couldn't continue long before the doctors got involved.
Immediately after deducting the point, Maz asked Hamill if he could continue and Hamill indicated No.
I don’t know that any of this will make a difference, but a NC feels like the right call to me. Jones doesn’t deserve the L, but neither does he deserve an W. And the same holds true for Hamill in this case.
At the time I was thinking NC.
Ultimately though I think that Hamil couldn’t continue, not only from the two legal blows, but the 50 000 odd legal blows that immediately preceded them. I think that once the fight stopped, Hamil was too overwhelmed to get up and knew that he had lost, but down on the ground he could still fling his arms around.
That was the worst possible way that fight could have ended.
I wonder what a different referee than Mazagatti would have ruled. It seems like controversy just follows him around from fight to fight.
I thought It went to video review and when they saw the elbow go directly into the eye they DQ’d Jones. As much as I want to complain about the 12-6 rule, although maybe no more dangerous forcewise the elbow is coming straight down on a point rather and on a broad edge. Those Elbows to Hammils eyes looked potentially career ending. Just because Jones didnt mean to doesnt mean he should be forgiven for something that looked deangerous beyond the normal realm of UFC rules.
a side to side elbow is not a pointed surface like the 12-6 elbow. Also a side to side elbow allows the head to twist. 12-6 compresses the head between the mat and the elbow – resulting in facial fractures.
I love Jon Jones, but those elbows could have turned Matt Hamill into Helen Keller.
I haven’t seen exactly when the shoulder injury happened, but it probably did happen before the illegal elbows. Still though, if a guy throws 15 shots, 3 of which are illegal, and one of the other 12 caused the stoppage, I don’t see what that changes.
If a guy get kicked in the nuts followed by a completely legal uppercut that knocks him cold as he is hunched over… do you take a point off then award a KO victory? It seems to me if he was injured in a sequence which included the illegal blows, the entire sequence is illegal. Without being able to see the definitive point where the shoulder was separated, there’s no way to overturn that. It was separated as part of an illegal sequence and was only recognized after the entire sequence was over.
Most likely happened here:
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Smart that they’re just trying or the NC, and not a full W. Makes their case seem legit and not like he’s trying to protect his perfect record.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 1:46 PM EST reply actions
This is disappointing
Come on Jon, you screwed up, big deal, move on. In the mind of everyone who watched the fight you were the far superior fighter that night but you made a mistake. Learn from it, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and focus on your next fight.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
He probably would
But he’s undefeated… and should remain that way if at all possible.
Not sure I agree with this
He does have a great case, and he can probably win this. But, backlash against fighters saying ANYTHING after a loss is always, in my opinion, comically large. If “I was in the hospital with a fucking staph infection one week before my fight” is going to be received negatively, I can’t image this going over any better.
I guess my real problem is, the loss didn’t hurt him at all. The UFC knew where he stood after that fight, the fans knew where he stood, and he was getting even MORE praise for having the maturity to accept a loss and move on. In my opinion, he should have just let this one go.
I will say that pushing for an NC instead of a W is a great move though.
by Shaun32887 on Dec 8, 2009 2:03 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
That seems reasonable. But I’m confused about something; shouldn’t it, according to the rules, be ruled as a TKO for Jones IF the decision was to be overturned? NC is supposed to happen after an accidental illegal strike due to which the fighter can’t continue, right?
They can make the argument
that the illegal blow was the straw that broke the camel’s back, so the illegal blow was in fact the reason Matt was unable to continue.
I think.
I agree with the decision. He repeatedly struck Matt with illegal blows and seemingly tko’d him with them. If those had been knees to the balls in the clinch would anyone be arguing this? If it was just one elbow, I’d agree with no-contest, but it was many elbows. Fighters need to have the fear of DQ in their minds so they don’t do that crap and this was a perfect situation to set a precedent. Now they’re going to think a little more when they get the idea to throw illegal shots, because a loss is much worse than a NC on your record.
I don’t know what the end result should have ultimately been, however it was clear there was a communication problem.
Did Hamill think the fight was over when steve stepped in to deduct a point? Did he even know about the illegal blows?
I think a deaf fighter absolutely has the right to compete, but part of a ref’s job is to look out for the fighter’s safety. Not being able to communicate is a huge obstacle to that, whether it is in a situation like this or where the other fighter may be in danger. I think any time there is an fight like this, a ref who knows sign language should be employed.
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by ultimatefightsource on Dec 8, 2009 3:18 PM EST reply actions
well matt would have reacted the same way any other fighter would have if they wanted out due to the shoulder, turned over and turtled and just covered hie head. Matt was trying to block and did a good job of deflecting a great deal of the blows. If matt wanted out he would have given up trying to defend.
for those of you who know the rules way better than i do…can you tell me what would have happened if Matt had been able to hear Maz and responded that his shoulder was popped out? there’s several people saying that when Maz asked if he could continue, that Matt had indicated that he couldn’t continue….however, i’m watching the fight right now, and when the elbows occurred, Maz stands Jon up and says “1 point” for the deduction to all the judges, then he goes over to Matt and asks him if he can continue, to which Matt does not respond….you can also see Matt’s feet in the air when Maz is walking over to him like he’s trying to help himself get up. it was a crazy sequence, but i don’t think it goes down this way if Matt could hear Maz or even see his lips through all the blood in his eyes.
yea... I didnt read your entire post
goes over to Matt and asks him if he can continue, to which Matt does not respond
Matt had not idea Mazz was talking to him – so he didnt react and looked out of the fight. Stopping the fight is pretty obvious for a ref if the guy dosent respond. If he could hear I think he would have taken his 5 minn. Then realized what was wrong with his shoulder and thrown in the towel. But because he just laid there, it appeared he was out of it because of the shots to the face with the 12-6 elbows.
If he couldnt see though, then the fight should be a DQ because it was caused by the illegal move. Marco had to throw in the towel when he could see but not well enough to continue.
It all depends on why they say they stopped the fight.
Hypothetical question:
Let’s go back to UFC 90 with Anderson Silva and Patrick Cote. In the beginning of the third round, right as Cote blew his leg out and went down, what if Silva followed up with an illegal soccer kick? Cote can’t continue because his leg is gone, but Silva threw an illegal, intentional blow. Is this a DQ win for Cote under the rules? My understanding is that the fighter’s inability to continue has to be tied to the illegal blow to result in a DQ.
If the soccer kick knocks him out, or he can’t continue because he’s too damaged from the kick, yes, it’s a DQ.
Kizer said that the fight was stopped because of the cut, and that after Mazz went to the tape, he was determining if the cut came from teh 12-6 elbows or from the other ground and pound. The decision was TKO or DQ, NC was not an option because the foul was intentional.
What about Belfort vs Franklin ...?
Ya’all probably remember Vitor’s first punch was legal but most , or at least a big part of his follow up punches were straight to the back of the head , yet that TKO was considered legit. So was the right call should’ve been a win to Franklin ..?
This opens up the possibility to many questionalbe scenarios no?
How are they nebulous ? There’s the back of the head , and you shouldn’t punch there , looks pretty simple to me . And it was more than one shot in Vitor’s case as I recall.
Because a person will almost always turn away from a shot, exposing the back of their head
If there are multiple shots landed in a row, then yes, that’s bad. But if someone is trying to finish a fight with a GnP TKO, there will almost always be shots to the back of the head involved. The defender is moving too much and it’s too easy to expose different parts of the head.
So what ? The rules are the rules , so if there’s no bad intention in the least it should’ve been a no contest in Belfort’s case , just like Nog didn’t mean to head butt Fedor and the result was a no contest.
Big difference, if you turn your head away, you knowingly accept that you’ll be getting hit in the back of the head. If the ref tried to police that in every case, you do realize there would be more officiating than fighting going on?
This is widely accepted, if you can’t comprehend, then I guess thats something you should look into.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
My understanding is that Maz didn’t even know about the shoulder until after the call was made, because the fight was getting stopped due to Matt being so devastaded by multiple illegal blows (and the prior ground and pound).
I personally find it in bad taste for Jones to now seek even a NC, after he broke one of the biggest rules in the sport. I’ve been at the fighter/ref meetings for multiple promotions and EVERY SINGLE TIME the ref speaking is very clear, that if you’re on your back, you can throw those kind of elbows, but if you are standing, or on top of a guy, thats a HUGE no no. I understand Jones made a mistake and it wasn’t intentional, but he should take the loss and deal with it, Hamill was fighting despite having a dislocated shoulder, and to say that he wouldn’t have continued had Jones not hit him with the elbows, is presumptuous.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
The problem I have is, Maz SHOULD have known about the shoulder before he made the call. It’s his job to make sure he knows why a fighter can’t continue.
Maz was too busy watching a reply of the illegal elbows Bones was smashing him with. What I’m saying is, Hamill intelligently defended himself until Jones hit him repeatedly with illegal elbows. Maz called the fight shortly after taking the point, where Hamill said nothing about his shoulder, because of the damage that had been done by Jones.
Will it be the end of the world if it becomes a NC? No, not at all, but I think all that class Jones was showing was a lot of hot air now.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Maz asked Matt if he could continue, Matt said no. At that point Maz went to check to see if the illegal blows caused the end of the fight. THAT is the problem. He didn’t check with the fighter why he quit, he just made the WRONG assumption. He didn’t even need to check the replay, he shouldn’t have. It wasn’t needed, the fight was over because of the shoulder.
I don’t know why it would imply Jones was less classy because he wants a fair shake since the fight was stopped for the wrong reason.
at no point after the fight is borken up does Matt say or indicate that he doesnt want to fight. when Maz asks him if he can continue, Matt just stared at the ceiling or whatever he could actually see thru his bloody eyes. when no response is given Maz waves his hand and says its over. then all the replay action ensued. i’m not sure why people are saying that Matt said he couldnt continue when that’s not the case.
That’s not exactly true. He asks a deaf guy if he is “done”, which is silly in it’s own right, then Matt points at his shoulder. THEN in the post fight interview he said he couldn’t continue because of his shoulder.
by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
you really need to watch the ending ot the fight again…he doesnt do anything when Steve asks him if he’s alright. ive watched this over 30 times. first you say that he said he couldnt continue, now you’re saying he points to his shoulder(which didnt happen) and Maz magically knows that his shoulder is messed up so bad he cant continue? that’s not the way it went down
I just watched it again
You’re wrong.
Mazz bends down to talk to him (laughable), Matt then points to his shoulder.
no he doesnt. you cant be watching the same thing i am. matt is trying to get up when maz walks over to him. you can see his feet go up in the air to help himself sit up. then maz asks if he’s okay. matt’s left arm is limp on the mat, and his right arm is from the shoulder down to the elbow on the mat and the elbow is bent so his forearm is straight up in the air. it never goes past his elbow toward his left arm, it falls back down to the mat limp just like his left arm. he doesnt point at anything, he doesnt mouth any words, he just lays there. as Maz is waving his hand saying the fight is over, matt then moves his right hand very briefly to his left shoulder, and then his right arm goes back down to the mat.
matt then moves his right hand very briefly to his left shoulder
So we agree, he points to his left shoulder? He is looking RIGHT AT Matt when he points to his shoulder.
he touches his shoulder AFTER Maz begins waving his arms indicating the fight was stopped. he’s not looking at Maz, nor does he say or try to say anything. he touches his shoulder as anyone would an injury like that. He’s not pointing at anything.
and this is my last reply to any of your comments. after reading some of your comment history, i can see how pointless it is to try and discuss anything with you. I know what i saw and am currently watching on my dvr. I’m not really interested in the opinion(wrong as it is) of a person who thinks that all elbows should be illegal, and that Neo Nazi’s are a legitimate marketing sector. you clearly dont get it and have trouble assimilating what you read and see into your brain, which is surprising for a supposed history major. anyone who watches the ending of that fight over again can plainly see what i have stated in detail, so i wont waste anymore time on this. you can go back to looking for trolling opportunities
Wow....
First of all I think all elbows should be LEGAL, which is the majority opinion. Neo Nazis ARE a legitimate market, how would they not be? If you had actually comprehended my stance (you didn’t) you’d see that I made clear that is was NOT okay to sponsor them.
Check your eyes AGAIN, Matt and Mazz are looking right at each other when Hamill points to his shoulder. It doesn’t matter if Maz had waved the fight off yet or not, I NEVER contended that he hadn’t. It’s Mazz’s job to find out WHY the fighter wasn’t able to continue.
Like I said, Hamill defended himself pretty damn good considering his shoulder was toast, and do you realize how many fighters have fought with dislocations mid fight? People act like Hamill was unresponsive because he’s deaf…HELLO, the man was barely concious at that point, and was only to that point after the illegal elbows.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Ummmmm, I’m not sure how this is a response to me. I never said he wasn’t defending himself. But he said the reason he couldn’t continue was his shoulder, not because of anything illegal Jones did. It’s Mazzagattis job to figure that stuff out.
by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Is keeping your hands in front of your face for 1:30, taking constant legal blows, without responding intelligently defending yourself? I didn’t think so. To me Jones did more than enough for the fight to be stopped, got exasperated when the fight wasn’t stopped, in the heat of the moment threw 3 illegal elbows without thinking.
I just think it’s a shame because he was obviously the better figher and ends up with an L. Either way we all know as long as he has to go through Jon Jones Matt Hammill will never be champ.
Matt was moving his head and keeping his hands up, if Jones can’t finish someone who you think isn’t intelligently defending himself, thats pretty sad. Thing is, people think it was so bad because Jones kept looking at Maz as if he was doing enough…Hamill was still concious, and still had his hands up…finish the fight and shut up in my opinion, a fighter shouldn’t try to influence a referee mid fight.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
exactly different if Hammill was turning his back and just turtling up and not trying to defend, but matt was. He kept his eyes on jones the entire time and deflected and blocked quite a few shots. Jones wasent finishing him and probably dident feel Matt break and give up so he thought to himself “shit this isnt working and looking at the ref isnt helping i know ill try a different angle”. Down came the elbows and Jones earns himself a loss
Since when is the Ref allowed to stop a fight due to a cut?
Isn’t that decision supposed to be made by the ring doc?
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