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Fact Check on Controversial UFC Sponsor Hoelzer Reich

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Jamie Vine of Hoelzer Reich has e-mailed me and asked me to clarify a few things regarding their company and the ties to neo-Nazis as has been written about previously.  The company became the subject of much debate following the news that Joe Brammer would be walking out at The Ultimate Fighter Finale wearing a Hoelzer Reich shirt.

I requested statements from the UFC in the days leading up to the event but received no response from anyone in their PR department.

On the actual broadcast of the event Brammer's fight was shown including his full walk out (oddly enough the walk out for Kimbo Slice and Houston Alexander was not shown).  This gave the walk out shirt a significant amount of screen time.  I am not normally one to speculate on such things, but it almost seemed as though an effort was made to ensure that Brammer's walk in was given time on the broadcast.

Jamie claims that nothing written about them was based on any facts or any evidence and would like me to do a piece not based on internet forum rumors but on the truth.

That being said, here are the facts and plenty of sources to back them up.  Fair warning, several of these points were discussed (in less detail) in the last piece on HR:

Star-divide

1)  The West Wall Situation.  The band West Wall is led by Ed Wolbank.  Wolbank is the former leader of the Northern Hammerskins and has previously discussed the role of using music to educate.  Feel free to give the history of "Hammerskin Nation" a read, Ed gets a special mention in the article.  Hoelzer Reich is quick to point out that West Wall is a "War Metal" band, not a neo-Nazi band.  Of course; these war metal songs just all tend to be about the German military, the name of the band hints at a bit more, and their first album was co-released by White Noise Records and Old Guard Records.  For the curious among our readers I will clarify that Old Guard Records announced the opening of their online store by stating that notorious white pride group The Bully Boys would be "firing up the oven again" with an upcoming release on the label (The Bully Boys also have a song called "Hammerskins", so clearly West Wall is on a mission to distance themselves from Ed's background).

Circling back to Hoelzer Reich's ties to West Wall.  West Wall claimed in a previous interview that they were sponsored by HR.  The HR website and Myspace pages featured photos of WW in HR gear, the HR Myspace page had up a playlist of WW songs (now removed) and the HR blog called WW their favorite band (now removed).  However, Jamie Vine stated on the Underground Forums (multiple forum posts merged into one):

We never "Sponsored" Westwall. The band bought a few of our shirts, and were kind enough to send us some photos in the gear.

...

Ed does have HR shirts, we dont pick and choode who buys our stuff online. We never sponsored them. It was just a photo THEY took and sent to us. Get it?

...

Westwall pictures were on our sites. We thought the music was cool.... We were not doing a 20 year background check on the band or its members. We liked the pictures they took in our shirts, we thought it was nice of them, so we put them up.  And now, they are down.

Now, Jamie has pointed me to this article which has the following statement from West Wall:

As to the flak that Hoelzer Reich has been catching over our band. The fine people at Hoelzer Reich heard our music, enjoyed it and sent us a free box of shirts. We in turn wore them for a photo shoot and sent them the pictures. Nothing more, nothing less!!!They did not send us any money to wear these shirts, they have nothing to do with our band and have nothing to do with the concerts/shows we play.

Of course, this isn't exactly the same as Jamie's earlier statements that the company has no control over who ends up in their shirts and that West Wall simply purchased some merchandise, wore it and sent the photos in.  Why lie about the situation if the association was purely a few innocent free shirts?

2) The Shirt DesignsAryan Wear designed shirt vs. Hoelzer Reich designed shirt.  Also, a Hoelzer Reich shirt can be seen here which states in German that "The Fourth Reich has begun."  For what it's worth, there isn't a lot of debate over what The Fourth Reich means.

Now, HR has stopped selling some of these shirts, such as the eagle shirt linked above.  But, this doesn't exactly explain their existence in the first place.

3) The Sponsorship of Niko Puhakka - Niko Puhakka is a fighter with multiple neo-Nazi inspired tattoos such as "Blood & Honour" on his chest (feel free to Google Blood & Honour for meaning).  Niko is sponsored by Hoelzer Reich.  They state that the sponsorship is due to Niko being a tough fighter and nothing more.  Jamie also sponsors him while stating that "NONE of our sponsored fighters, OR the owners of Hoelzer Reich Clothing, are racist. Not a drop."

So those are the facts.  West Wall's leader (and former hate group leader) previously stated they were sponsored by HR, and now says they were not.  HR said that West Wall bought merchandise and simply wore it which they have no control over, but it turns out the merchandise was given to the band by HR.  HR uses Nazi inspired designs for their clothing.  And they sponsor a fighter covered in neo-Nazi inspired tattoos while stating that none of their sponsored fighters are racist.  These are all facts and are all sourced.

I can not tell our readers how to feel, and it is clear that at no point will the label be coming out and saying "yes, we support neo-Nazi ideals" so everyone is going to have to look at all of these things and decide for themselves what it all means for the company, and more importantly for the sport.

I sent a list of questions to Hoelzer Reich following their request that I post an article of facts with actual sources.  They have not yet responded but this story will be updated once they do offer any statements on their shirt designs, the inconsistent stories on the past association with West Wall and if they would like to offer a public statement condemning the neo-Nazi movement to help strengthen their stance that they are not sympathetic to that cause.

Comment 481 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Fair warning...

if you come in here and talk about being sick of hearing about this…it will result in a warning and possible banning.

If you don’t want to read it, then don’t. No need to comment on something you don’t want to read.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 7:55 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I hadn’t seen the Aryan Wear/Hoelzer Reich direct match-up before. Amazing. They were sketchy to begin with, but jeez.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 7:59 PM EST reply actions  

exactly

I really would rec this more if I could.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

What is your sig about?

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s Ross Pearson saying why he’s not sponsored by Hoelzer Reich, really.

by CSKit on Dec 7, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

the only legitimate response to the situation I've seen

Ross Pearson was approached by Hoelzer Reich and he publicly refused to be sponsored by them.

To which I say: “Fuck yeah, Ross Pearson”

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh whoa, that’s pretty awesome.

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

even if he is no longer with them, they used this photo to advertise their shirts.

by DirtyML on Dec 7, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, which sucks, I agree. But then he went out and openly severed his ties.

I have yet to hear responses from Danzig, Cerrone, Delgado, etc. And I have heard one from Beerbohm which makes me cringe.

Pearson, in short says “I did something stupid, and this company is as bad as it looks.”

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually heard Danzig dropped them immediately when he found out.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

if that is true

then props to Danzig, too

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

The fact remains

that they obviously saw the shirts before they signed in the first place. If they aren’t complete idiots then they knew full well what the company was about. Their dropping of HR is just damage control, like a person caught stealing.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

Clothing companies often design shirts after a contract is in place, fighters often don’t ever meet their sponsors, and some agents work out deals based solely on the money brought in to themselves and their client.

by pdl on Dec 7, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m saying, maybe take a look at their website? If your agent is that stupid, drop him.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt anyone will argue with that much.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not a matter of stupid.

Manager gets a percentage of sponsors they secure. Fighter wants more pay. Manager compromises, doesn’t find it relevant to explain to fighter.

It’s good work depending on who you are…

by pdl on Dec 7, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

If only things were ran that effeciently.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

No fighter should be that far away from the management of their own career; their livelihood.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

You’d be suprised man. Especially when we’re talking the Brommer’s and Danzig’s of the sport.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Not surprised as much as saddened. But of course there is still the very good chance that they knew what the company was about and went with it anyway, if just for the money or if they agree with the principles I’m not saying they do, I’m just saying it’s possible.

In the same vein, i wouldn’t want to come out to fight a man half naked with CONDOM DEPOT plastered on my ass, but you do what you gotta do to get paid, and that could be the situation here as well.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, if I had only saw the one walkout shirt just used Saturday, and they said they’d pay me X amount to wear it, I’d jump on it, putting myself in the shoes of a up and comer with little management.

It’s lame, but I’d rather have fighters apologize and drop them, than just them quietly removing them from their sponships and acting like nothing happened.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It's still the best response from those involved

From what I understand, the UFC wrote an apologia for their broadcast of HR. HR has yet to denounce neo nazism. Beerbohm has defended HR. The other sponsored fighters haven’t said anything. I’ll take Pearson’s response over these any day.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, it was the best thing they could do at the time, but I personally don’t think it should be celebrated. As per my stealing analogy, it’s like the person got caught stealing and gave the stuff back.

I hope I’m not coming off as brash, this topic just really lights me up.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

not at all

I appreciate your perspective here. I think you are right. And I’ll happily replace my sig as soon as I see something on the topic I like better.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep the sig

This reminds me as a kid when i was told that i should not hang out with the kids who do stupid shit like vandelize (which i dident and ended up breaking some shit but any ways) because i would end up getting lumped in with bad people. The company surrounds itself with Nazi logos and then displays pictures of guys who openly admit that the are about the race hate im sorry but the company are asking for a bad rap.

by Riley_96 on Dec 7, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I may just be an idiot

But I had no idea that the Iron Cross was a Nazi symbol until the last article came out on this. I saw it on biker merchandise and HHH of WWE even had it on his shirts so I had no clue. But being ignorant is no excuse.

"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"

by dedstrk316 on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s a particular history of its use in the states that makes its origins much more obscure. The ignorance of its origin is understandable. The apologias are not. I have a problem when people who know full well it’s a Nazi symbol and then refuse to acknowledge it, or worse, continue to defend it.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

In the case of the Iron cross, it depends who is wearing/showing it.

If the wearer is in Germany, chances are that they are in the German armed forces.

If the wearer is in Kentucky, chances are they are a Neo-Nazi.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Hahahahahha.

That was gold.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree.

The Iron Cross has always been a German military symbol, dating back to the Royal Prussian Army and it is still in use today. It is also present in a number of cultures throughout the world. Wearing an Iron Cross is in no way a sign of neo-nazism.

HOWEVER, wearing an Iron Cross, SS runes, and a logo that looks suspiciously like a swastika is different story.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

If you’re a redneck in Kentucky wearing an iron cross it is fair to make some assumptions

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Bull

Quit making generalizations based on what part of the country you are from. I am from Cincinnati. Right on the border with Kentucky. So I really don’t appreciate the slurs from people that live in this part of the country.

The Iron Cross is used in all kinds of commercial artwork and has nothing to do with nazism.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yes, I am Familiar with West Coast Choppers and Independent Logos

I see them every day on my bus route, in fact. Their prevalence does not erase their meaning.

To the “pre-existing German symbol” apologists.

The Iron Cross was retired as a military decoration in 1918. Hitler loved it so much he brought it out of retirement. He had been awarded one himself in the previous war. He had a tendency to seek out symbols of German might and German Nationalism. There are plenty of german antifascists who are confused/upset by its reintroduction in 1957 and its continued use as a military decoration.

To the “it’s just a biker symbol” apologists.

The Iron Cross has two paths of entry into American biker culture. One is through neofascism, and that speaks for itself. The other is a result of children of WWII vets wearing the medals of Nazi officers that had been confiscated by their parents during war. This usage came without context and its history has been subsequently obscured.

The problem is that the biker apologists do not say are not claiming to celebrate and wear the war trophies that resulted from killing, arresting, or otherwise stopping officers of a fascist, genocidal government (something I would also find rather strange). They are claiming that the symbol is meaningless and has no direct tie to Nazi symbolism. This is outright falsehood.

Given that information, I can see NO GOOD REASON for its continued use. It still caries its fascist ties and a direct line can be drawn from its current usage to Nazism. Why defend that?

I find it interesting that you refer to the symbol as “the Maltese Cross” elsewhere in this thread, as if picking a name from a different context removed the Nazi history it has. Why not call a Spade a Spade, and an Iron Cross an Iron Cross?

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Actually, the Bundeswehr (German armed forces) have readopted the Iron Cross as both a part of their logo AND a decoration.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 8, 2009 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention there is a significant difference between the Maltese cross and the Iron Cross. The Maltese cross is four ‘V’ shaped arrows pointing inward, as opposed to the four flat triangles in the Iron cross. They’re not interchangeable.

How appropriate, You fight like a cow.

by MaturdayNight on Dec 8, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, I forgot to mention, the Nazis really didn’t use the Iron Cross all that much. They eschewed old-school Prussian military symbology for symbols of their own design.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

He probably didn’t see them until it was time to wear them. Even then, MMA clothes commonly have weird images. Flying/flaming skulls, jewelled daggers, all kinds of weird shit. He saw the shirt, thought it was a little odd, did some research, and cut ties. I respect that.

by Swordslasher on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It will always be too soon.

by ontite on Dec 8, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I say flood Dana's Twitter account about this.

Both BE & FL have been banging the war drums over this, and if we pester Dana enough about this, we may get a response about it. Link to the relevant articles, make sure he sees we’re not happy about it. This is something that can’t get buried.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 8:00 PM EST reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing.

Who has the most followers on here?

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Bob Arum was right.

Anyways this shirt

Is a prime example of how the Iron Cross (which I’m not offended nor link specifically to nazism) becomes a Nazi symbol. Especially note how the the shirts H label resembles SS lightning bolts on the sleeve.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:04 PM EST reply actions  

which I’m not offended by nor link specifically to nazism.
Man I’m on fire today.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Can i just get it clear

Is the iron cross a definite nazi symbol??I only ask because i have several west coast chopper t-shirts and they all have it also James Hetfield has it tattooed on his elbow and I dont consider nore would I think anyone consider him a racist

Stephen Quadros: Where do you see yourself in three years.
Quinton Jackson: Let's see, I'm 22 right now. In three years I see myself being 25.

by RealIrish on Dec 8, 2009 4:15 AM EST up reply actions  

the Iron Cross by itself

is fine. It’s when its surrounded by the SS lightening bolts, the Totenkopf deaths head, the colors black/red/white, etc that it becomes problematic.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 8, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Those symbols are not Nazi symbols. They have been around well before the Third Reich and just because you equate them to Nazis does not make it so.

It is a piece of German heritage. The iron cross is used all over the world and no one complains about it.

West Coast Choppers uses it and I know Jessie personally and he is not a racist. The United States Navy uses the iron cross. Look at the Navy Cross.

I look forward to having the owners on MMA Gospel Radio soon. Working now to get them on so they can have their say.

I am not saying they are or are not racist but one needs to learn some more about significant symbols of a countries heritage before passing judgment.

www.mmagospel.com

www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel

by Stay Down on Dec 7, 2009 8:05 PM EST reply actions  

What symbols are you talking about?

I didn’t bring up iron crosses. The only symbols I pointed to were the ones on the shirt…that is the EXACT same shirt as a shirt from Nazi wear and a shirt stating that the fourth reich has begun.

I don’t think you read the article sir

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I read the article thank you. I should have known better than to post something that was not stating they were racists.

As for the symbols I was talking about, I was looking at all the symbols they use on their clothing line and not just focusing on a couple.

That eagle is not a Nazi eagle.

I think you are overly sensitive and do not want anyone second guessing your article sir.

www.mmagospel.com

www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel

by Stay Down on Dec 7, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No...

you brought up symbols when I did not in the article.

The EAGLE is not. But the fact that they took the exact design of an Aryan Wear shirt doesn’t seem odd to you combined with the other factors?

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The entire argument is based on the symbols they use so I felt it was appropriate to discuss them a bit more.

Yes, the design being the same is quite odd but until I get the chance to interview Jamie I will judge not lest I be judged.

www.mmagospel.com

www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel

by Stay Down on Dec 7, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve spoken to Jamie several times and they’re always quick to clam up when I ask them about these things.

And no…my entire argument is NOT based around the symbols alone. It is the symbols and the people they associate with AND the way they can’t stick to a story.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d would LOVE to see an explanation that somehow made the use of this collection of imagery somehow acceptable.

The best they could claim is idiocy. Which 1) really isn’t all that acceptable a response anyway and 2) I would probably be pretty skeptical of.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Also...

doesn’t line up with the fact that they’re claiming to be German history buffs.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

No...

The argument is decidedly NOT about the symbols. Rather the argument is about the symbols in the precise context in which they are appropriated. In the context of HR, they have placed the symbols within a Nazi context by playing up associations with bands and people who are overtly pro-Nazi (see above). The argument Brent put forward is that given the explicit and implicit associations between HR and half-witted white supremacists, the UFC should not allow their fighters to endorse their merchandise in the Octagon—especially when they ban other clothing lines for purely materialistic and/or spiteful rather than moral reasons. Given that this is the argument, Stay Down’s response is toothless. As such, the unbelievably myopic “but iron crosses predated Nazism” line of reasoning should quick being trotted out in defense of HR. Either defend the symbols in the context set by HR—and not merely in the 1st Amendment sense—or shut up already.

by teestroyer on Dec 7, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You pointed them out as idividual enitties

The only power in any language or iconography is context between elements.

The imagery they use to present their Company Ideal is an entire entity they design to represent what they think their fans want to wear or what they want their customers to wear. None of their shirts are limited to one symbol or iconic representation but a collection of them. This collection is what communicates the Fourth Reich vibe everyone is perceiving.

No one will use the Swastika due to its monstrous infamy, but if they use everything else it nets them plausible deniability. Unfortunately it looks like they weren’t subtle enough.

That said, I look forward to your interview and hope we can all learn this was a big misunderstanding by dime-store designers who thought Illustrator CS4 made them skilled.

by asa on Dec 7, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I KNEW someone had posted this before. Excellent.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s Mr. Downey Sr.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

My formed opinion

Did you know that the swastika-outlawed in Germany- is one of the most sacred symbols in religions around India such as Hinduism and Jainism? Truly, the Swastika has many origins that are religious, symbolic, and useful in non-racist ways (in case you were wondering about useful, the best way to use a square plot with recreation and residential space is by making a swastika)

In the end, it is all rightfully outlawed and frowned due to the powerful negative and shocking emotions elicited by such a symbol, likewise it is my belief that HR is just as bad as regular old Nazism.

by ZephyrBrasil on Dec 7, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It sort of meant good luck, among other things. Goodness, good fortune, having a good life, but the Nazis changed it up a little bit. Typically in the Eastern Indian Religions you’d see the Swastika with the bottom wing flat on the ground, forming a sort of square. The Nazis tilted it on it’s edge, making more of a diamond.

by Dooda on Dec 7, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I was just drawing a parallel, that some things diagonal or not heheh just won’t fly because they are too stigmatized. Anything Nazi is just that, and a company which gathers them should be equally stigmatized

by ZephyrBrasil on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I suppose, though when I see it in the right context I sort of like them. The Nazi stigma for me is mainly when I see it tilted and in red and black.

by Dooda on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

卍 : “ban”, “man”, “manji” is also a japanese and chinese character, what does it mean, I have no idea, I don’t remember.

10/24

by spectaa on Dec 7, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I had the pokemon card with that on it

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

yessir

sold that shit for $100 when I was like 12

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I've seeen a ton in anime and manga

Nazi weird Kid

Naki samurai

Nazi pirate (the worsts)

Nazi sword

10/24

by spectaa on Dec 7, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

those are going the opposite direction of the swastika…

by duggy on Dec 7, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe people know this, but to the uninformed… the swastika is a sun symbol, a ‘sun wheel’ to be exact. Its been around for millenia and was prominently used by many Native American cultures with the bent arms facing left or the wheel turning to the right. The nazi swastika had its bent arms going right.

It boils down to an occult symbol, whereas when the sun wheel is traveling to the right with the wheels bent to the left, this is equivalent to the “right hand path” of magick, when its traveling to the left its equivalent to the “left hand path” of magick or “black magick”. Hitler and the Nazi’s knew its meaning and “dark art” connotation.

Similarly, those in the know within the U.S. government are aware of the occult connotation of the “pentagon” as the center of a “pentagram”.

And they said my B.A. in Cultural Anthropology would never be useful.

by bleve_ on Dec 8, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Hi, I also have a B.A. in Cultural Anthropology (I’m serious here), and I’m pretty sure that the story about Hitler reversing the manji/swastika into the Nazi swastika for occult reasons is apocryphal. The use of the swastikas in Naziism was inspired by the Indian caste system, actually, and the concept of racial purity that the caste system evokes (the swastika’s actual meaning is quite a few different things, like the sun, or stability).

Swastikas facing in both directions have long been around long for a very long time. Hitler wasn’t the first to switch it around.

That being said, whatever meaning the Swastika once had, its meaning in the western world is pretty well-defined now as one of genocide and racism. In the west it’s offensive in the extreme and I don’t think that that is disputable.

by Chromium on Dec 8, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

East Asia doesn’t have the cultural baggage of Nazi imagery, so they’ve adopted their own Nazi chic.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

And it’s also used in most (perhaps all) buddhist countries. So you can find this symbol in large parts of Asia.

by Sventsh on Dec 8, 2009 3:32 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s also used in buddhism, which make it in common use over really large parts of Asia.

by Sventsh on Dec 8, 2009 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Like I mentioned in my other post, some of they symbols they use are even illegal in germany. The whole german heritage excuse the company tries to use doesn’t fly.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

There’s a shirt with a skull with a nazi officer cap and has the same collar designs from the nazi uniforms.

by joseph. on Dec 7, 2009 8:05 PM EST reply actions  

More from the FightLinker.com article...

They are using the EXACT SAME skull for their Tshirts that the SS used for their patches on their uniforms. How can they defend that?

The SS were mass murders. Why would you want to remember or honor that part of your “heritage?”

by Dexerion on Dec 7, 2009 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

Please read more about the history of the Totenkopf skull, it was around long before Nazi Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf

www.mmagospel.com

www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel

by Stay Down on Dec 7, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Posted by nottheface above:

Reich by itself =/= nazism
Iron Cross =/= nazism
death’s head =/= nazism

Reich+Iron Cross+death’s head = fucking nazism

It’s not the symbols individually. Its the symbols collectively and the way they are employed (e.g. direct parallel to Aryan Wear shirt, SS-style HR logo right where the SS armband would go on a Nazi uniform, etc.)

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Screwed up the blockquoting.

Reich by itself =/= nazism
Iron Cross =/= nazism
death’s head =/= nazism
Reich+Iron Cross+death’s head = fucking nazism

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That doesn’t mean it is somehow absolved of its meaning as a fascist Nazi symbol.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

You're isolating the evidence - look at it in context with everything else.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What people have to understand is AFTER Nazi Germany, that skull is not usable anymore

Why would you want to hold on to a part of some “heritage” that was filled with so much evil? I’d think Germans would want to forget this part of their past, not romanticize it.

by Dexerion on Dec 7, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't get it

What do people not understand about the symbolism? Swastikas were around long before Nazi’s were. Swastikas in and of themselves are not racist. However, a swastika, on a german soldier, standing outside a gas chamber, is a totally different thing. Put 2+2 together people, jesus christ.

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Some people are just naive and retarded

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I am sorry man, but some things are beyond rational thought and way deep in the emotional fields. Its brutal for some people who are traumatized by the swastika in western culture. I’m cool with it but I understand people who aren’t

by ZephyrBrasil on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

nice way of putting it.

I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.

by Loot on Dec 7, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Most awesome analogy so far!

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Bravo!

I wish I could be that succinct.

by asa on Dec 7, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish I didn’t have that many grammar errors. My head is somewhere else today.

by John Nash on Dec 8, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m Drunk.

Kimbo wants to take your caterpiller and do bad things to it.

by Mr.Kib on Dec 8, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Why can't you understand the HISTORY of said symbols.

Symbols are only worth what is prescribed to them in history. If at some point, a totally wholesome symbol is used and perverted by the most reached of people, that culture is just been robbed of using that symbol again, outside of the new perversion.

For example, if you walked into a restaurant with a huge rainbow shirt on 15 years ago, people would have thought you were very eccentric. Now, they will think you like to take it in the pooper.

Sometimes, over time the wholesome meaning to the symbol may overshadow that which was perverted, but only time can heal those wounds. It’s only been 60 years since WW2. Hell, many of the people that fought in that war and many families who lost people to the gas chamber are STILL ALIVE TODAY.

Don’t you think in eye of those circumstances, these jingoist ass holes could hold off on their dream of a clothing line? At least this specific angle on a clothing line.

by Dexerion on Dec 7, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec-ing this one, too. We shouldn’t pretend it never happened. We should point it out and say “that was fucked up and unacceptable”

Where I agree with dexerion is that these symbols are NOT devoid of their meaning as nazi symbols, and they are NOT to be romanticized.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

As someone who attended a Japanese school

I’d just like to say that’s a very blanket statement and totally untrue. There are definitely very hawkish nationalists all over in the government, and to a certain degree that’s affected some of the school curriculum, but in general most Japanese people are taught in school and understand plenty well what happened during WWII and in the events prior, such as Nanking. While there are those who will try to act as though these things never happened, they do not represent the majority.

"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz

by CasualMMAFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Really? I haven’t come across that before. Since you’ve apparently actually been to the place in question, I’ll defer to your knowledge. That’s good news to hear.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

REC for you good sir!

by The_Gaijin on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a friend from Canada who still says it with that meaning

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s true! We try to get a fire going on a Friday night and he’s like, “I’ll round up a faggot, eh?”

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think your friend is hanging out with BROCKLESNARRR!!! way too much.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’m not sure you realize how that came off.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 7, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be bad

But you really gotta hear him say it. I know, I know, internet doesn’t pick up inflection, but he says it without a trace of homophobic naivete. And no, he isn’t suggesting gay people make for good kindling.

Ugh, anyone wanna lend me a backhoe so I can keep digging myself this hole?

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Hahaha

Alright, alright, I believe you.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 7, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s french, we use it like that, I didn’t even know the slur came from it.

10/24

by spectaa on Dec 7, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of his Quebecois doesn’t quite compute..

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Or a cigarette

There’s plenty of countries where it sounds perfectly normal to say that you’re going to “burn a fag” as you whip out your lighter. Here in the U.S. I’ve seen a few Brits almost get lynched inadvertently saying that in the wrong place.

"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz

by CasualMMAFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I've heard the same

And yeah, I’m familiar with the term (bundle of sticks being the first definition). Point is when something turns awful and is recognized as such, you can’t say “it used to mean this”, particularly when there’s a combination of things with a similarly negative connotation. I can’t call someone the word “faggot” and say that it once meant something else.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 8, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't have to read about it...

Everyone here understands that these symbols were around for a long time and then adopted by the Nazis. That is not the issue.
When these symbols are combined on a whole, well, these guys are either idiots with poor taste or racist idiots with poor taste.
I can’t imagine any scenario where, I, has an owner of a company, that I would like to be successful, would purposely put graphics on my shirts that could even remotely be linked to nazis, unless I was a nazi.

by Shatto1 on Dec 7, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Dude

It doesn’t matter whether or not the symbol was around before Nazi Germany. The fact that they adopted it means you’re supposed to disown it entirely. Nazi Germany committed war crimes of horrific portions, if they use a fucking iron cross, then you’re supposed to disown the fucking iron cross.

by ontite on Dec 8, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Here’s a good rule of thumb.

If you’re a company that loves german heritage, making shirts that can’t be worn in Germany is probably not a good idea.

by Phildo on Dec 8, 2009 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

They have a Mac Danzig signature shirt, I wonder what he has to say, he like to talk.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:08 PM EST reply actions  

This came up on the UG (in fact I think it was what touched off the whole deal). Apparently that sponsorship was a one-off arranged by Mac’s manager, who didn’t vet too thoroughly. Pretty embarrassing for Mac, I’m guessing, but I don’t think he’ll be wearing HR gear again anytime soon.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s good then too, his reasoning for no renewing or whatever would be interesting to hear.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

apparently I can’t type this eventing.

not renewing, or what exactly his relationship with the company was and how/why it ended would be nice to hear.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

OK I take back the short part.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s pretty obvious this company is supporting neo-nazis. And the fightlinker articles on it are really good. I know I’ve already linked them on twitter and fb and had them retweeted as well. Hopefully people will take a bit of notice and the UFC will do the right thing and stop supporting this company.

There is no way this company is not nazi. They use every nazi symbol except the swatstika. And for a company that “claims” to be about german heritage, some of the symbols they use are even illegal to display in germany. It’s crap.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 8:09 PM EST reply actions  

The use of the German text isn't evidence of much.

Think of how many kids enjoyed listening the Rammstein without any idea that the lyrics were often about gay sex.

I’m not claiming that some of the other symbols are meaningless (the Totenkopf head seems foolishly blatant), but nor am I damning them for their designs (that eagle head is an awesome shirt design). I just don’t think the Fourth Reich line is necessarily indicative of anything.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Dec 7, 2009 8:18 PM EST reply actions  

The use of a line about the fourth reich…by a company which claims to be all about german heritage means nothing?

These people can’t point to the history of things and then claim ignorance on what these things mean.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It isn’t as if HR is coming from a context where “Reich” isn’t a loaded word. “Fourth Reich” is the natural progression from the 3rd.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

is there any way that someone could possibly interpret “fourth reich” as something positive?

Yes, Germany used the word reich before the nazis, but they are the one’s that came up with the “3 reich system” for lack of a better term.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Generally speaking any number in front of Reich is bad.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m just trying to counter the german history argument.

I don’t know if anyone has done this, but I think a true german history buff (as opposed to a neo-nazi) could create an argument saying that from WW2 to the berlin wall coming down was the 4th reich, and since the wall went down is the 5th reich, and the next major chane in german politics would be 6th. or they could renumber german history into different reichs.

If you really were a german pride group and just loved the word reich, you could do something like that, but the idea of the fourth reich is a nazi/neo-nazi idea, plain and simple.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

The term 1st, 2nd, and 3rd reich only came into use with Hitler as a way to link the Nazi empire with the past empires of the Holy Roman’s (#1) and the German Empire of Wilhelm (#2). So really on Nazis use the term.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand.

I am creating an argument to someone saying, “reich is a german word, it doesn’t mean nazi.”

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just trying to be funny in my first response.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget the killer brownie recipe

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that company entirely based on German heritage had a couple of pages missing from their history book and/or didn’t have a German dictionary on hand? Am I reading you right?

by asa on Dec 8, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

hahahaha!

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

L O fucking L !

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHAHAHA

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 7, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Wish I could rec with my iPhone i

by Matthew Roth on Dec 7, 2009 10:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This is probably the funniest thing I have read on a blog

but yet so simple

Holy Shit!!!...Peterson resigned...Am I dead?...Is This Heaven?

by RoyalsFanStuckInCardsLand on Dec 7, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Clearly anyone with half a brain is able to understand what is going on.

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:26 PM EST reply actions  

I’m not concerned as much with the ones with half brains. I’m concerned about the ones with full ones and are still using this imagery and writing apologias for its usage.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

So even if they do have suspicious nazi-imagery, I don’t see very many solutions to the problem even if they do admit they are neo-nazis.

by DirtyML on Dec 7, 2009 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

I have asked them on multiple occasions to simply offer a statement condemning the neo nazi movement. They have not to this point.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course they won’t. It’s hard to have things both way if you actually make a clear, definitive renunciation of your main target demographic.

by McEwen on Dec 7, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

They haven't, because they can't or won't.

Props Brent, for taking them to task.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Dec 7, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Congrats Brent!

Quaaaack!

The only real question I have is:

Why would anyone want to support the losers of WWII?

America won, F’k YEAH!

by JAYGK95 on Dec 7, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

America won, F’k YEAH!

O’RLY? I’d say there were a few other countries that were pretty instrumental and much more involved…so let’s not simplify it down to that meme.

by The_Gaijin on Dec 7, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Killjoy.

You know what I meant.

by JAYGK95 on Dec 7, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry you’re right…didn’t mean to be a killjoy. My grandfather and several of his older brothers served for Canada over there, so I tend to get overly touchy with that, but that should be for people that actually, ignorantly believe it not those having some fun on a message board.

by The_Gaijin on Dec 7, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hehe, I know a few people who celebrate a yearly “spacibo” party for one of the others involved… :)

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. If we’re going to be honest we have to that prick Stalin and the USSR most the credit.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, Gen. Winter is the greatest Russian commander of all time. Stopped both Napoleon & Hitler.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You know what I’m saying. 70% of the German troops were tied up on the Ostfront.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Which wouldn’t have been a problem if Hitler had kept his non-aggression pact. Besides, what hurt them the most was the climate & terrain – the freezing slush of Russian tundra makes invasion from the European front damn-near impossible. Those coming from the Black Sea region have done well fighting in Russia, though.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The biggest mistake was not giving Rommel his 20 tank divisions in North Africa. Hitler viewed it as a distraction but he could have easily defeated the British and pushed all the way into the Iran cutting them off from India and they rest of their empire. They would have been neutered. And as an added benefit he would have 20 armored divisions in Mesopotamia which (with Turkish troops) would have been only 100 miles from Grozny.

Thank god he was so friggin’ full of himself.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

The entire military structure of Nazi Germany was bizarre. Instead of a clean chain-of-command like the Allies, everyone had multiple bosses across both the armed forces and Hitler’s inner circle because he was so paranoid about a takeover. Had Hitler just let Rommel do his thing, it would have been much harder, if not impossible, for the allies to have won Africa and pushed into Italy.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

And thank goodness for their paranoia. A saner high command could have left the world a much worse place.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

My brother and I debate this over and over,

but ultimately we agree with you. Rommel takes Africa, and the oil shortages are no longer a problem for motorized German military equipment.

Rommel + Full Tank = Win

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Dec 7, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

If Germany had sane rational leadership, WWII would never have happened.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

But then they wouldn’t be Nazis.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame the 20th C. on this man:


Triggered WWI, which led to WWII, which led to the Cold War, which led to US involvement in the Middle East, which led to fundamentalism against Westernization…

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Gavrilo Princip. Also gave us the band Franz Ferdinand.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

He was just the spark.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, but it’s weird to think that so much history can be tied to one pull of a trigger.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Summary of all history ever:

Shit happens

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I always loved the ideas that it was the trains running on time that caused it.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah, Franz Ferdinand wanted a sandwich.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it all gets back to Yoko Ono

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to go back 1.2 billion years whe the first amini acids formed to get to the root of the problem.

Stupid amino acids.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t blame the cold war on him. That shit was going to happen anyway due to the expansionist policies of the communists. There was no way that communism and capitalism could peacefully coexist without some serious friction.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The communists never would have had an opportunity to come to power without the chaos of the Russian collapse.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

But Europe got divided up into Western & Soviet halves after WWII, which was instigated by Treaty of Versailles, etc. It’s a bit reaching to single one lone man as the cause of 100 years of history, but still interesting nonetheless.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Not so much on Napoleon

The winter following his invasion was unseasonably mild. Russia’s scorched earth retreat to Moscow left Napoleon unable to resupply his troops. It was more the terrain and isolation that did in Napoleon, rather than the weather.

"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White

by duck on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Good point. Russia overall is one geographical clusterfuck.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Rule #1 on Page #1 of the book “How to Fight a War” is DON’T INVADE RUSSIA!

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was "always take Australia"

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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That was Hitler’s copy…it didn’t have the “Don’t invade Russia” rule, as that copy was written by Napolean, and was discovered shortly after Hitler and Nazi Germany’s demise.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You also have to grab the Phillipines and Indonesia as well.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

He is a good hugger.

I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.

by MonkeyCHops on Dec 7, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s the hair.
It’s always been about the hair.
It always will be about the hair.
Because of the hair you will be rocking a Canadian flag for a month.
Don’t expect me to give you an easy out this time.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t need it.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that a Risk reference?

Or am I just a nerd?

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn skippy.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

That is a Risk reference.
And you are a nerd.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell that the horsemen from the steppe.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

see they’re central asia, right in the heartland so everywhere else is fair game.

Except Japan.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Ever seen "Mongol"?

Great movie, very operatic

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Saw it with a Mongolian girl. Thought it was a little overdone. The Horse Thief was awesome though (not about Mongols though)

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I liked it, thought it was really interesting to make Ghengis Khan’s tale essentially a love story.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds like a long story, the man single handedly repopulated Asia.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

rimshot

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe the aim is to create

a three part series. The first showing his rise to prominence, the second his military genius and most of his more critical engagements, and the third kind of the winding down period. But I’m not a Temudjin buff, so I dunno.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Dec 7, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I cannot what for no. 2, "The Great Khan"

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was “never get involved in a land war in Asia” followed by
“Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”!

"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday

by MyFistYourFace on Dec 7, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Let’s not forget the syphilis.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup. And it’s a damn good thing they were there.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Here’s a quick one: they can quit using Neo Nazi imagery.

Here’s a more realistic one: The UFC can ban their apparel like they did with Affliction.

I also like Brent’s idea.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, the UFC can just not allow them to sponsor and give them an international stage to show their nazi advertisements (and go out of their way to show a fighter wearing them walk out)

And really, a BS letter from the company condemning it would just be insulting. We know what the company is. They should just be boycotted now and anyone working with them.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

By the way, I saw the Kimbo entrance and that entrance too, it was a mistake that they did with the commercials it wasn’t on purpose. I can say that because my Brazillian channel’s image transmission freezes during commercials.
Kimbo’s entrance was awesome, he came in roaring like Kongo and the crowd was wild. Hilarious.

by ZephyrBrasil on Dec 7, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not so sure about banning the material. These guys are probably Neo-Nazi sympathists, but as long as they straddle the very thin line of claiming they are not, and only using those symbols that they can historically justify as not originating from Nazi Germany, I really don’t think the UFC should ban them. I think that the fighters that wear their apparel should potentially be informed about it, and Dana should consider whether or not he wants to sign them, but just banning their apparel when they aren’t outright sympathizers seems like a slippery slope to me.

by Dooda on Dec 7, 2009 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

I don’t buy the slippery slope theory.

There has to be a line somewhere. Online poker is already banned, there hasn’t been an announcement, but reality kings will probably be banned. They can put the line between guns america and this.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, online poker isn’t banned yet. The UIGEA was delayed.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i meant ufc has banned fighters from being sponsored by online poker sites.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Banning anything and everything on the slippery slope to Nazi sympathizing is a-OK with me.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Is there something wrong with Nazis?

Lol, That was not serious.

Even if they are a Nazi company, and what?

As long as they dont discriminate against anyone, I dont know why anyone cares

by Meshuggeth on Dec 7, 2009 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

Going to draw the ire of Brent!

by DirtyML on Dec 7, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, don’t nazis discriminate against people by definition of being a Nazi? It’s one of the main reasons why people become Nazis.

by Dooda on Dec 7, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Um…Nazis by definition discriminate. I mean…that’s…kind of the deal

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Is there something wrong with Nazis?

They have a nasty genocide habit.

The only acceptable form of discrimination is aginst Nazis.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

ha@ the last line.

I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.

by Loot on Dec 7, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I lol'd
Even if they are a Nazi company, and what?

haha


As long as they dont discriminate against anyone, I dont know why anyone cares

HAHA…HAHHAHA!

10/24

by spectaa on Dec 7, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

This

is responsible journalism. recd

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Dec 7, 2009 8:35 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, Brent well done for bringing this to the light.

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It blows me away how many people don’t see anything wrong with this.

sad

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions  

For some of you commenting on the symbols are not evidence of Nazism and have been around before Third Reich, how can you explain the sponsorship of Neo Nazi Bands and Niko Puhakka?

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions  

Silverstar is racist too. Why don't you add them to your witchhunt?

I want to see statements from Silverstars owners too.

by notmir on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Silver Star has used ONE symbol. That’s quite a different situation from an entire line of clothing based on nothing BUT these symbols.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

They still draw my skepticism (as do any of these symbols individually), but it sure as hell doesn’t add up the way HR does.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see “The Fourth Reich Has Begun” on any of those nor do I know of SS sponsoring any neo-nazi bands.

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Their initials are “SS” I smell a conspiracy

by reciprocal on Dec 7, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I want to see statements from Silverstars owners too.

So would I, actually.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe that is actually US/MARINE/SPEC FORCES image

Notice the knife through the skull? It was used by some US Military Personnel as a ‘Death to Nazi’s’ statement.

by joseph. on Dec 7, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn’t that what Paulo Thiago belongs to?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

Brazillian special forces. Some bad-ass motherfuckers, quite frankly.

by Jonathan. on Dec 7, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

See the movie “Elite Squad”. Awesome!

www.ultimatefightsource.com
Come visit us!

by ultimatefightsource on Dec 8, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Neo-nazis are pussies anyway, just like the on Michael Rappaport played in “Higher Learning”. I think we need to shout from the rooftops about these assholes and make known what they are trying to do and make sure nobody accidently buys and wears one of these dumbass shirts just because they saw one on a UFC fighter that they like.

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions  

Could I just say that the design is awful on these Tees? Way way too cluttered with no sense of clarity.

by Dooda on Dec 7, 2009 8:38 PM EST reply actions  

Welcome to MMA fashion.

*puke

by goodbones on Dec 7, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The sad thing is, HR is quite a bit better in the design area than a lot of popular “MMA lifestyle brands” (symbolic associations aside). And they’re still not, by any stretch of the imagination, good.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Sprinkles on dog shit is still dog shit.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 7, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

At least it’s pretty dog shit.

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Just have the “Bear Jew” come out to the octogon and handle the fighters wearing their designs. Problem Solved

by reciprocal on Dec 7, 2009 8:39 PM EST reply actions  

inglourious basterds reference

by xharekx33 on Dec 7, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Reference “The Inglorious Bastards” film that came out earlier this year.. good tale of justice

by reciprocal on Dec 7, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh. I wanted to see it, but it didn’t come out here.

by McEwen on Dec 7, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

The best part was how Tarantino made fun of the audience for indulging in that form of "justice".

Compare how the Nazis were celebrating their propaganda film to how much we enjoyed seeing Hitler get gunned down.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather contrast here

One is a cathartic revenge fantasy against individuals whose actions warrant no sympathy.

The other was an actual event of systematic genocide over a group of people based solely on their race (where race is a completely sociological construction of difference).

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I get the difference.

But the Nazis were still enjoying their revenge fantasy (the sniper movie) while we enjoyed ours, and to miss that point is to overlook a massive part of the film. I’m not saying we’re equal to the Nazis overall, it’s just an unnerving parallel.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Um ... Mach?

Does this mean I can’t play Modern Warfare anymore?

by asa on Dec 8, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Naw – that’s about killing terrorists, who it’s OK to hate now.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

You can play them – just don’t enjoy them, dammit.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Modern Warfare is a branch of the Call of Duty series, so those weren’t what he was talking about.

And I really like the whole Russian terrorist spin on the new game…tons of fun.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

There’s something disturbing to me about pretending to be a soldier fighting a war when you could really fight in that war.

Must be a generation gap.

by John Nash on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know how old you are fella

But I’ve always seen the extremes of human conflict as natural entertainment. As much of the thrill as virtually possible with none of the actual genocide. The border of peace and civilization and no falling over the precipice.

Sorta like Zombies. Pretty horrible situation you would never wanna be in, but a situation you’d love to be in.

by asa on Dec 8, 2009 5:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. The Americans can act like Nazi because that’s cool and allows to delve into our most debased violent fantasies without feeling guilty. Kind of like I Spit on Your Grave.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Who cares. Hoelzer Reich has probably made a killing with all the hype on the forums. Bad publicity is still publicity and they are probably laughing all the way to the bank.

by notmir on Dec 7, 2009 8:43 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe, but even if you don’t care about the moral issues at hand, one thing that everyone on this forum should probably care about is what if mainstream media sources at some point in the future decide to jump on this if the UFC keeps letting their shirts be shown on TV.

Am I the only one that can picture the press having a field day with the subject of a sport that lots of people thing is violent and barbaric, suddenly also allowing neo-nazi advertising on the show. This is why I can only imagine anyone high up at the UFC doesn’t know of any of this, because it’s just ridiculous business risk in my opinion, even more so when your banning perfectly fine companies like Clinch Gear for much less reason.

by Barry619 on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

this is one thing I’ve been saying as well. Dana is always talking about the image of the sport. Not wanting it to be viewed as just barbaric fighting, but a sport. Going off for fighters on TUF getting into fights in the house and stuff like that. How could the UFC not think having a nazi clothing company is a bad idea for it and the sports image?

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll say this again: The symbols are one thing, but their actions are another. HR to this date, as Brent says, have not issued a statement condemning the neo nazi movement. They’ve had plenty of opportunity to. They have promoted hate bands in the past. I think their actions speak louder than anything. The question is very simple: Do you condemn the neo nazi movement? That’s a yes or no answer.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Dec 7, 2009 8:46 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Brent, when Jamie he reached out to you, how was his reaction to this whole thing?

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 8:47 PM EST reply actions  

I think Jamie is a she.

by DirtyML on Dec 7, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

They weren’t overly angry, but they’ve not exactly responded to anything but saying that they don’t sponsor west wall and that they only sponsor Niko because he’s “tough”

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MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

so they have not directly come out and say they do not have any ties to Neo-Nazi organizations? And no explanation of the Aryan or Fourth Reich shirt?

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Not as of yet.

they have said that they are not racist and none of their sponsored fighters are either…but…um…Niko

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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

They certainly did that on the underground...

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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep up the great work Brent.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I've heard that a lot actually

We’re not racist.
We just believe in being proud of who you are.
We just want every race to live by themselves.

Not from this company or anyone they sponsor, but as a social defense of the White Pahwurr/Neo-Nazi image.

by asa on Dec 8, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That’s the spin used by White Supremacists like Melvin Costa, “We don’t hate other races, we just think our’s is the best”.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

All we need is a Brown Pride reference and we an pull this all together.

by asa on Dec 8, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Has anyone asked Cerrone about this?

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 8:51 PM EST reply actions  

From their about us
http://www.hr4life.com/aboutus.asp

HOELZER REICH CLOTHING

Welcome to Hoelzer Reich Clothing. Founded by Jed Colvin and Jamie Vine, Hoelzer Reich is an apparel company offering Iron Cross and German themed apparel, MMA apparel, Fight Shorts, hats, and accessories. Hoelzer Reich Clothing is proud to sponsor MMA fighters, MX riders, and weight lifters. HR designs many custom walkout shirts and signature shirts for our fighters, along with fight shorts and MX Jerseys. We are located out of Southern California, and ship worldwide.

THE FAMILY NAME
The name “Hoelzer” comes from Jed Colvin’s Great Great Grandfather’s name in Germany. He was a Prussian Soldier during the 1870’s, and this painting of him below has been in the family for over one hundred years. This painting below of J. Hoelzer was restored by two well known art restorers, Fritz Hoelzer, and his brother, Hiram H. Hoelzer (US WW2 Veteran wounded at the Battle of the Bulge.) Hiram Hoelzer is father to Jed Colvin’s Grandmother, Hope Hoelzer.

The Hoelzer surname is derived from the Upper German word "holz,: which means "forest." Thus many of the names that evolved from this root have to do with living in the woods, or being in the lumber industry. For example, Holzhauer, means lumberjack. Lumberjacks are known and respected as some of the most hard working, strong and honorable men around.
The word "Reich," simply means "empire; realm; nation; or representing a period of time;" Hoelzer Reich directly Translates to "Lumberjack Nation," or "Lumberjack Empire." We chose the name Hoelzer Reich, not only because it reflects Strength and Honor, but because it is part of our family history.

WHY WE DO HR
We started this company using a family name, our love for apparel and design, and desire to create a bad ass line of apparel that represents our family heritage, and interest in MMA. We are very dedicated to supporting Mixed Martial Arts, by sponsoring many MMA athletes, creating signature t-shirts for our fighters to wear at events and share with their fan base. Hoelzer Reich Clothing also designs and sells custom walkout shirts and fight shorts.
We do not have any Political affiliations with any organizations, nor specific views of any controversial parties. Our interest in the Iron Cross and German history comes strictly from a historical and ancestral standpoint. For many years, we have collected German memorabilia dating back to the early 1800’s, which has been passed through the family for generations. The Iron cross symbol and other German-inspired imagery used on our apparel dates back hundreds of years, and does not depict a certain time of German History.

Sincerely,

Jed Colvin – Owner
Jamie Vine – Owner / Designer
Contact:

Jamie Vine
sixfootgraphix@yahoo.com
Cell: 805-797-7368

The Iron Cross, or Eisernes Kreuz, was a military decoration of the Kingdom of Prussia, and later of Germany, which was established by King Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia and first awarded on 10 March 1813 in Breslau. In addition to during the Napoleonic Wars, the Iron Cross was awarded during the Franco German War, the First World War, and the Second World War.
The Iron Cross has been popular with many bikers, hot rodders and others, using German iconic militaria to promote a tough-guy image, or as a symbol of rebellion or non-conformity. In the 1960s, the Iron Cross was adopted by American surfers, who started wearing medals plundered by their fathers. Cal Look, Volksrod and other Volkswagen enthusiasts often use the Iron Cross as a symbol that reflects the car’s country of origin. Ed Roth created accessories for surfers, hot rodders and bikers derived from German World War II trophies, which included the Surfer’s cross.
In spring 2007 a petition to the parliament to reintroduce the Iron Cross as an award for military bravery was initiated. In addition, Jesse James is known worldwide for his brand West Coast Choppers, who uses the Iron Cross as part of his branding for the company.

THE HELMET
The Pickelhaube [Prussian Military Helmet] (from the old German Pickel = “point” or “pickaxe”, and Haube = “bonnet”, a general word for headgear), also “Pickelhelm,” was a spiked helmet worn in the 19th and 20th centuries by German military, firefighters, and police. It is most closely associated with the Prussian army. The Pickelhaube was originally designed in 1842 by King Frederick William IV of Prussia, maybe as a copy of similar helmets that were adopted at the same time by the Russian military. During the early months of World War I, it was soon discovered that the Pickelhaube did not measure up to the demanding conditions of trench warfare. Beginning in 1916, the Pickelhaube was slowly replaced by a new German steel helmet.
The Stahlhelm (German Military Helmet) is German for “steel helmet”. The Imperial German Army began to replace the traditional boiled-leather Pickelhaube with the Stahlhelm during the First World War in 1916. The term Stahlhelm refers both to a generic steel helmet, and more specifically to the distinctive (and symbolic) German design. The design of the Stahlhelm was carried out by Dr. Friedrich Schwerd of the Technical Institute of Hanover. The model for the Stahlhelm’s design is said to be the 15th century sallet, which was worn by both knights and commoners, and which provided good protection for the head and neck. Almost every military, naval, and political organization had its own distinctive insignia, which was applied as decals to the sides of helmets.

OFFICER’S CAP
The peaked cap has been worn by Russian Army officers (other ranks had the same cap without a peak) since 1811, as a new type of forage cap. Another early appearance of the peaked cap appears to have been in the Prussian Army of 1814-15 when Fieldmarschall Prince Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher and other officers wore it as a field cap in place of the cumbersome shako of the time. Throughout the nineteenth century peaked caps were the characteristic ordinary duty headdress for officers of both the Prussian and Russian Armies. In 1856 a form of peaked cap was adopted by petty officers of the Royal Navy, in imitation of an undress headdress worn by officers from as early as 1827. The British Army adopted peaked caps in 1902 for both the new khaki field dress and (in colored form) as part of the “walking out” or off duty wear for other ranks. A dark blue version was worn with dress blues by all ranks of the U.S. Army between 1902 and 1917.
During the twentieth century the combination or peaked cap became a common headdress in the armies, navies and airforces of the world, especially for officers. As a relatively practical and smart item it also became popular amongst police forces, largely replacing the helmets and kepis worn earlier.

by notmir on Dec 7, 2009 8:52 PM EST reply actions  

Haha, they plagiarized a bunch of that from wikipedia. History buffs indeed.

by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no such thing as plagiarizing from Wikipedia, that is like a thief getting upset because someone stole from him what he had stolen from someone else.

by TheDood on Dec 7, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Except that you can follow citations to proper books & articles on Wikipedia. If used well, it’s a powerful scholarly tool.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no such thing as plagiarizing from Wikipedia

quoting this because lol

by George Lucas on Dec 8, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Wearing white hooded sheets might have been around before the KKK too; but today, in todays time; to todays people, we all know what they mean.

All the semantics is nothing but bullshit.

It’s a nazi company, end of story. And if the UFC is truly concerned about the image they are putting forth of the sport, then they would ban this company.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

we all know what [white hooded sheets] mean.

Ghosts?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

lol
(I did throw the KKK ref in there to help you out you know)

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

and don’t make me laugh, I’m trying to be angry now

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

damnit, stop that
lol

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Fuck yeah, fightlinker!

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

yea, I find the whole free speech argument funny

the whole free speech thing is to keep the government from limiting your free speech. Not other people. Other citizens have the right to speak out against what you say and take action against it if they wish.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Indiana Jones hates Nazis.

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 8:55 PM EST reply actions  

So does Jake from the Blues Brothers

Specifically, ones from the Midwest:’

“I hate illinois nazis!”

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Dec 7, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

another random coincidence

anyone else notice brammer’s back tattoo? it was two snarling dog heads… exactly like the one Edward Norton’s character, Derek had in American History X. Dan Lauzon pointed it out. I would never think anything of that, but with all the other links to that ish… he is tough though, like most fighters…?

by duggy on Dec 7, 2009 8:56 PM EST reply actions  

he pointed it out on twitter… during the fight.

by duggy on Dec 7, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So are these HR Clowns denouncing neo naziism and the entire nazi movement?

Jamie,

The ball’s in your court, do you denounce naziism and the neo nazi movement?

How about your coworkers?

by JAYGK95 on Dec 7, 2009 8:58 PM EST reply actions  

If they drop Nikka Puhakka… I’d be pleasantly surprised, but it should be done. He is clearly still a Neo-Nazi.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Brent good job at exposing this, but will anyone say anything if the UFC does a show in Dubai? Will we make a stink about that?

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

The Dubai thing is a whole complicated thing, I would love to write a piece about the situations there if they do…

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I was there two years ago and after I found out what’s going on it’s kind of haunted me (and I’ve been to some fucked up places). To me it would be like visiting Apartheid South Africa. If you do write it here’s a good article for research:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-morally-bankrupt-dictatorship-built-by-slave-labour-1828754.html

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think any event in the middle east is going to be complicated. Its sad that we have to do business there at all.

by NinjaRehab on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The ring girls in burkhas is gonna be really weird

by kanodogg on Dec 7, 2009 10:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I have a semi-serious question: who buys this stuff? I mean, they’ve taken the tastelessness of the worst Affliction shirt and added inflammatory graphics and text. Why not simply wear a shirt that says “I’m a tough skinhead” or “White people rule and I’m tough?” I know they’ve “sponsored” minorities, but would anybody other than white supremacists or other bigots actually tout this shirt in public? In any major city in the US?

Being overrated is overrated.

by bobby g on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM EST reply actions  

Idiots

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not simply wear a shirt that says "I’m a tough skinhead" or "White people rule and I’m tough?"

These kinds of hate mongers are usually cowards who don’t have the courage of their convictions. They like to mask their hate under the guise of “artistic merit” or “historical appreciation”. Please. Don’t piss in my face and tell me it’s raining.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

All I will say is this.

If Dana and co. can ban clothing lines for being competitors, they sure as shit can ban HR for even being remotely close to the Nazi BS. If they don’t, I will fully support any movement to make it public knowledge that the UFC is giving air time to this company, and not doing anything about it.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:10 PM EST reply actions  

they're not just not banning them

they’re taking the sponsorship fee for allowing them in the octagon

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

they banned strikeforce stuff when strikeforce was putting on shows

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Affliction.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

damnit, yea, that’s what I meant, thanks

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m certain that much more noise about this, the UFC will be jumping all over this, because if they don’t…well, I don’t really have to outline how terrible it looks.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

But, they’re banning Clinch Gear, and Henderson said they paid the fee

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

lol, thats because it’s Hendo’s company…has nothing to do with the fee.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t want to come across as defending HR because i would never buy or wear their stuff, but you can find shirts from other companies such as Tapout that also has Nazi symbolism. Maybe it is because I come from a school of thought that supports all free speech not just what I agree with, but I can’t support a witch hunt against HR even if they are nazi supporters. Just because I don’t agree with someone or if i find something offensive doesn’t mean I should try to put them out of business. This company supports fighters and has employees with families that I wouldn’t want to see out of work.

The shirt that made the UFC broadcast was not offensive at all. The evidence does seem to support that this company may have Nazi leanings, so if you don’t like that don’t buy the shirts, it is simple. Maybe it is just the lawyer in me, but I can never condone shutting down free thought no matter how distasteful it may be to me personally. That includes Nazi supporters. It is not like this company has killed anyone or is calling for the extermination of a race.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:14 PM EST reply actions  

It is not like this company has killed anyone or is calling for the extermination of a race.

Referencing the Fourth Reich is leaning towards the 2nd thing on your list here.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Very possible they could have some nefarious motives when referencing the Fourth Reich, but it technically would just be the union of Germany and Austria into one state.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Reich means empire the fourth reich would be the 4th German empire. that doesn’t mean it would resemble the third reich. The term reich was used before the Nazi’s they were the third german empire.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

In terms of neo-Nazism, the Fourth Reich is envisioned as featuring Aryan supremacy, anti-Semitism, Lebensraum, aggressive militarism and totalitarianism. Subsequently, neo-Nazis believe that this rise would pave the way for the establishment of the Western Imperium, a pan-Aryan world empire encompassing lands with prominent Aryan ties (Europe, Russia, Anglo-America, Australia, New Zealand, and Southern South America).

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’m sure Neo Nazis view the fourth reich as a continuation of the third reich. this could very well be what was meant in the shirt. I’m sure pther German have a different view for the next German empire.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

the notion of a Next German Empire is pretty problematic in and of itself.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Fucking Rec’d.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Shows that I rec’d it here. Dunno whats up, but it saddens me that this rec, f all the recs that I’ve rec’d, isn’t showing that it’s rec’d.

Ow my head.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Do they add up to some sort of duck?

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno...

let me ask him.

Duck?

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Duck

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Goose!

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Nope, I'm still not a Nazi

But I am a Ravens fan, and the damn game is on! ;)

"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White

by duck on Dec 7, 2009 10:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Thats not as bad.

I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.

by MonkeyCHops on Dec 7, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

so you do like murderers.

I knew it!!!!

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Ray didn't kill nobody

But, unfortunately, I do believe he does know who killed somebody.

"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White

by duck on Dec 8, 2009 7:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree the evidence does point to them exploiting a certain white supremacist market niche. If the UFC doesn’t want that view on their broadcast they can ban them. I just prefer having more information out there even if it is unpopular.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

And nottheface thought i was nuts.

The word reich means empire, the 4th reich is a continuation of the nazi way of thinking.

Why didn’t the 4th reich start or end when the berlin wall went down?

4th reich is a nazi idea.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The third reich was not a continuation of the second reich and the fourth reich does not necessarily mean the continuation of the third.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

when you are using the definitions that were created by hitler.

If you are not a nazi, why wouldn’t you use your own definitions, why keep using his?

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this, if the fourth reich actually existed. The problem with that is the term was INVENTED by West German politicians with Third Reich ties as a way to directly create lineage between the Third and theoretical Fourth.

Look, I can appreciate your free speech statement in your original post. Grasping at historical straws is not the way to defend it though.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

this whole reich enumeration

is a Nazi construction of history. THEY marked it as such. There is no Fourth Reich that doesn’t explicitly make reference to a Nazi ideology.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

How did I think you were nuts.

The term 1st, 2nd, and 3rd reich only came into use with Hitler as a way to link the Nazi empire with the past empires of the Holy Roman’s (#1) and the German Empire of Wilhelm (#2). So really on Nazis use the term

I was trying to point out that First Reich and Second Reich were something that the Nazis invented to link themselves to past great empires. The idea of the numbered Reichs was basically an invention of the Nazis.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Ignoring all of the political explanations…where did you come up with the Austria/Germany unification as a definition for it? That’s way out of left field.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The first reich resulted from the unification of the German states. Today that would be the unification of Germany and Austria.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Why wasn’t it the unification of West and East Germany?

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably a combination of the fact that Germany today doesn’t encompass the land that was controlled in the reich’s and that the term was used heavily by the Nazi’s so after the war germany attempted to distance itself from everything Nazi related.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

did they ever ecompass as much land as they did as the holy roman empire?

If we’re going by amount of land controlled, we’d still be on the second reich.

4th reich = nazi.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

No third reich = Nazi

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Further uses of the word “reich” after the abominations Hitler and Nazi Germany pulled off = really dumb, or really nazi.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

no, the first second third fourth reich system is a nazi way of thinking.

They were the first one’s to call the Holy Roman Empire the first reich. They are the ones who called the German Empire the second reich. They are the ones who call nazi germany the third reich. They are the one’s who call whatever you want to call the fourth reich the fourth reich.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Germany was called the German Reich since 1871.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re wrong here. The 1st and 2nd reichs were referred to as such long before the Nazi Third Reich. Hitler bastardized the term, so it’s not commonly used anymore…but back in the day, the terms did exist.

HOWEVER, this does not derail the theoretical Fourth Reich explanation above, which has direct lineage to the Third Reich.

"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Technically true. When Wilhelm was crowned Emperor after the German Unification they declared their newly formed Empire the second Reich, claiming it as the inheritor of Charlemagne’s Holy Empire. But it was the Nazis (and German nationalist) who were obsessed with the idea of bringing back the a new Reich and it’s use was much more popular after 1920 than before. At least according to what I recall. But definitely post 1918 it’s usage (especially in English) is linked to those spouting a German Nationalist message.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a sport, and considering the amount of controversy around the sport, a possible hate group support should be something that DOES NOT have ties to MMA and the UFC.

No one is saying to shut them up, we’re saying don’t support them by showing their clothes and such to the fans. Anyways, I dont’ think anyone is going to go out and buy their clothes because of it, but it’s just asking to give ammo to those who would like to see MMA banned still.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t consider putting some symbols on a shirt that may resemble Nazi symbols hate speech. As far as I know they aren’t engaging in any hate speech and even sponsor a black fighter.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

They are sponsoring those who do, and lying about it. And woohoo, they sponsor a black fighter. Elton John used to date women too.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, I didn’t think I’d actually see it, but someone sincerely used the “I have a black friend” argument….

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

lol

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Dec 7, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It was only a matter of time. If you have to resort to the “I have a ____ friend” argument, chances are, you’re full of shit.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

haha most likely it is a token sponsorship, but also a true hardcore white supremicist would never do that.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

But a clothing company who is in “cover up mode” would.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. It’s either stupidity or cryptofascism, neither of which is defensible.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

1) Free Speech is about what actions the government can do about what you say. I have no problem with putting the company out of business for making money off of nazi imagery.

2) there isn’t exactly a sponsorship shortage, from what I understand.

3) I really don’t want to have to stop watching the UFC just so that I’m not contributing to this company’s success, but I WILL do it if HR is still in the Octagon. I don’t want to see it. And there are plenty of people who don’t.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly about the HR shirt that made the UFC broadcast did you find so offensive that it would force you to quit watching.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm probably the only one who will say this

But the Iron Cross. I find the Iron Cross offensive. And although I’m not much in the mood to read another apologia for the Iron Cross, I’m more than happy to say this repeatedly.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

So what if they had ties to child porn rings? Serial killers? That’s still OK under your “free speech” terms right?

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

No, those things are illegal. Thinking about something is different than acting on it. While I disagree with Nazi sympathizers it is important to encourage thinking outside the box.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

and celebrating something

(or writing thoughtful excuses for it) is much different than thinking about it.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not excusing any behavior. I’ve said that I don’t support Nazi thought, but what I do support is the right for others to form their own opinions even if i disagree with them.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s talking about HR, not you.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

They’re allowed to have their opinion.

We’re allowed to have our opinion that they’re statement “we don’t support nazis” is stupid, and take appropriate action.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because I don’t agree with someone or if i find something offensive doesn’t mean I should try to put them out of business.

That’s your opinion and you have a right to it. I, on the other hand, disagree, and I have no problems putting a company that supports hate out of business. The images are distasteful, but I don’t particularly care about the images. it’s the fact that they’re supporting a sub culture that thrives on hate.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Dec 7, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

you know, not buying their shirts is one option

the other option… pressuring the UFC to ban them as a sponsor, which is what many are hoping to do

not buying their product isn’t the only choice

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

and this crap about “they have families” please

they want to support their families, the first thing they need to do is quit being racist; that will help their kids and next they can not create racist products

I’m not going to feel sorry for a company tying itself to the same people that had soldiers grabbing jewish babies in france and literally “making wishes” and ripping them apart by the legs in front of their mothers. They don’t seem real worried about what happened to those families.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t conclude that everyone who works for HR is inherently racist.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d conclude that everyone who is well informed and still wears it is though.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe for consumers who buy some of the more blatant shirts, but I don’t think a fighter is racist just because he is sponsored by HR.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither do we, of course, save for that douche bag with the tatoos. :)

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

a fighter who is non-racist and sponsored by HR

is what was known as a useful dupe during the communist years. Someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing but it still helping the cause.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I’m sure the little kid in china screen printing the nazi crap on the shirts isn’t a nazi racist, but…

the people coming up with the nazi symbolism to put on the shirts and the people marketing it, I’m sure know what they are; and most of the time when you are around a group focused on racism like that, they stick together and hire like minded people

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Which again...

is not a freedom of speech issue.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

We have no indication that HR supports genocide. No indication that HR supports white supremacy. They deny these things. The only evidence is that they use some Nazi symbolism in shirts. They don’t use swastikas, they dont use the term nazi. They use a skull and a iron cross. At best from current evidence we can conclude this is a company that uses symbols from a terrible regime to exploit a market niche. No evidence that HR supports these ideas themselves.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

And an identical eagle, and the SS…but thats all historical too right?

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I just said they use Nazi symbolism on their shirts, but that doesn’t mean they personally want all Jews dead.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Not all, but there’s a good number right?

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I take that back. That’s unfair.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t really want to be defending HR, I’ve said I think they are Nazi peices of shit. But I support that viewpoint getting exposure so other people will not become Nazi scumbags. If it is talked about it can be countered. If it isn’t talked about kids will usually follow in their parent’s footsteps.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, and this article is an example of the only proper exposure it can have. Letting HR get away with its cryptofascism does more to perpetuate the ideology than criticizing and condemning it.

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 7, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was a good article. People should keep digging to find the truth. More information is always better.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

no, they just admire the genocidal maniacs that did

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

So we should just overlook that they profit from hate groups? That they require hate groups to buy their products to stay in business?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m ok with hate mongers blowing all their money on ugly shirts.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

supporting naziism

even in subtle ways is bullshit.
naziism is a plague and a curse that we should strive to wipe out like small pox.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

naziism might be a plague, but i bet nazism is worse ;)

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree but banning Nazism only forces it into the underground if it is out in the open it can be destroyed.

by Sliup on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s always going to be some fucking idiot who is into Nazi stuff, it just needs to be stopped from happening in public rallies, concerts, parades…

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, and they use more nazi symbols than just the skull and iron cross; (the skull is the specific design used by nazis too, it’s not like it’s just a skull) They used nazi symbols that are still illegal in germany.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Or even hardcore shows in the 90's

I used to get head-hunted in pits by skinheads because I was the only brown guy at hardcore and metal shows back then.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 7, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

they're known for their brave

fearlessness.

“10 jump 1/ what a man”

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve always thought Jello sounded like someone strangling a yodeler.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha

There was one of us in every city.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 8, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I was the one semi-Asian there that could pass for Native American if it helped get him laid.

by Grappo on Dec 8, 2009 6:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Replacements or Minutemen?

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

saw teh replacements live

never had the chance to see the minutemen — was only 15 when D Boon died.
Saw Husker Du, Black Flag, Meat Puppets. Saw Fugazi’s first tour.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate you a bit right now.

by McEwen on Dec 7, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

well

don’t hate me too much
it was Black Flag’s last tour with the crappy rhythm section. the replacements were drunk and utterly awful. husker du were creepy and tried to hit on us.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Replacement was one of the top three live shows I ever saw. And they were trashed. Husker didn’t give a shit so it wasn’t that good.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

when i saw them they were beyond the pale drunk

couldn’t finish a single song

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Ready to be flamed as a "Bro" for this, but w/e

Seen DMB 3 times live, and the last time was right before Leroi passed away. Dave and Stefan were geeked out of their minds as sure as I’m sitting in just my boxers right now. There were about 3 beats ahead of everyone else; really wouldn’t have mattered for Dave but a lot of those songs require mad sync on keeping the time between Stefan and Carter.

It sucks when you shill mad money for great seats and it’s like they don’t even give a fuck.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I would still love to see that, just to say I saw the ’Mats… and I mean, it sounds like a spectacle at least.

by kid_eh on Dec 8, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Saw the Replacement live at First Avenue when I was 15. Also saw Husker Du, Soul Asylum and Run Westy Run. Good times in Minneapolis back then.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

soul asylum

was utterly mind blowing when i saw them in 88

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 7, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

88 or 89. Same period. They were such a good band back then. Nothing like the band that showed up on MTV a few years later.

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I am so cool that I listen to bands that don’t even exist yet.

I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.

by MonkeyCHops on Dec 8, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m so cool I told you about them.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 8, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

You bought our album?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Bought it?

I fuckin mixed it.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 8, 2009 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Found it in a thrift shop.

Tucked between two copies of Frampton Comes Alive.

by pdl on Dec 8, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Traded in my two copies of Frampton Comes Alive for it.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 8, 2009 2:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Are those guys punk bands like Green Day?

Keep firing Assholes!

Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.

by Ubernoober on Dec 7, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

this is first class sarcasm, folks

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 8, 2009 2:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Ramones?

The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)

by ufc4 on Dec 7, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

DEAD KENNEDYS-“Nazi Punks Fuck Off”

Punk ain’t no religious cult
Punk means thinking for yourself
You ain’t hardcore cos you spike your hair
When a jock still lives inside your head

Nazi punks
Nazi punks
Nazi punks-Fuck Off!

Nazi punks
Nazi punks
Nazi punks-Fuck Off!

If you’ve come to fight, get outa here
You ain’t no better than the bouncers
We ain’t trying to be police
When you ape the cops it ain’t anarchy

[Repeat chorus]

Ten guys jump one, what a man
You fight each other, the police state wins
Stab your backs when you trash our halls
Trash a bank if you’ve got real balls

You still think swastikas look cool
The real nazis run your schools
They’re coaches, businessmen and cops
In a real fourth reich you’ll be the first to go

[Repeat chorus]

You’ll be the first to go
You’ll be the first to go
You’ll be the first to go
Unless you think

Kimbo wants to take your caterpiller and do bad things to it.

by Mr.Kib on Dec 8, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

If a company has to do this much damage control

they know full well that their products are racist, as are they. They might as well come out, giver the nazi salute and grab their balls. I’d still think they were despicable ignorant peices of human excrement, but at least they wouldn’t come off as bitches.

by Amsterdaam on Dec 7, 2009 9:51 PM EST reply actions  

As I said in a different reply…

If you have to use the “But I have a _ friend!” argument, you are full of shit.

It’s lame that we even have to discuss these guys sponsoring fighters.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 7, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel the same way. If these guys want to be racist or sale racist clothing, they should at least own up to it instead of the ole ’these are not the Nazi symbols you are looking for" routine.

"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday

by MyFistYourFace on Dec 7, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

but at least they wouldn’t come off as bitches.

Then they could sponsor Nick Diaz! Oh wait… racism…

by pdl on Dec 7, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t help but wonder about the shitstorm that would hit if they tried to sponsor a fighter the next time the UFC goes to Germany.

I’ve seen several defenses of the owners if the company, most of which come down to the “black friend” line of reasoning, but I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say they’re not in the least racist. However, that would leave them as a company that is manufacturing clothing that is aimed at and marketed to a racist subculture.

I’ll be honest and say that some of the stuff looks benign to me – iron crosses don’t offend me on their own, an eagle head is just an eagle head and skulls are skuls – until they’re put in context of their more blatantly racist counterparts. That being said, I find it hard to believe that the average neo-nazi wouldn’t pick up on the connection and think “Cool….look how popular this proud white company is.” They know who they are marketing to, and it’s not to the generally open minded group of people reading and posting in this thread. It’s the people posting over at Stormfront.

by McEwen on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST reply actions  

For all further inquiries, refer to this man:

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Dec 7, 2009 10:40 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I loved how Tarantino used the score to The Battle of Algiers for his scenes.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Just seen this from the UFC spokesperson’s response to the Jewish Chronicle:

"Our fans and our fighters are into heavy metal and heavy rap whether they are black, white, Jewish, Japanese or Chinese. We have fans all over the world. Their lifestyle is tattoos, heavy metal and rap."

Jesus, who wrote and then OK’d that crap?

Also have to agree with this from Brent:

I am not normally one to speculate on such things, but it almost seemed as though an effort was made to ensure that Brammer’s walk in was given time on the broadcast.

I found it very odd indeed.

by An0nymous on Dec 7, 2009 10:51 PM EST reply actions  

I hope this doesn't upset the Nazi's.....

I think they are against these such things but…

From one man to another man I love you Mr. Brent Brookhouse.

Thanks to everyone here at BE once again for what you do.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Dec 7, 2009 10:54 PM EST reply actions  

props to BE

…for having the stones to address this issue when so much of the other MMA media outlets are burying their heads in the sand.

by The Savage Science on Dec 7, 2009 10:56 PM EST reply actions  

Fightlinker had a link to your post about them removing their ties to Nazism, what happened to it?

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

We moved it to a feature story. Once I figured it was going to become a big deal I wasn’t really happy with the blog post and decided to give it some more context and serious analysis:

Racism, Hoelzer Reich and the UFC

Had I to do over again I would have just set up a redirect, but I hadn’t slept much at the time ;-)

by The Savage Science on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Also Cagewriter address it too

by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 7, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The UG has been been all over this shit for months.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I was pleased to see Maggie Hendricks do something at Yahoo Sports about it. IMO, the big issue isn’t so much whether HR is offensive or not (though that is an interesting debate) but the collateral damage this could have in the sport if the mainstream media got a boner about it.

by The Savage Science on Dec 7, 2009 11:26 PM EST reply actions  

My only problem with Maggie’s piece was that she focused on the walk-out shirt that HR designed for their fighter at the TUF 10 finale, when in reality, there was nothing offensive about that particular shirt. That doesn’t let HR off the hook for their past misdeeds, but it really weakens the argument against them when you get indignant about a shirt featuring nothing more than a few Maltese crosses and the colors of the modern German flag.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

WOW, looks like these type of issues really drive the idiots out in hordes :)

All the people in here picking one side or the other only adds to the stupidity. No need to even make an article about this, anyone with half a brain already knows what the right thing is.

by TheDood on Dec 8, 2009 12:04 AM EST reply actions  

The right thing is to make the issue public and not let it get buried, yes?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yes

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 8, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

or should I say…yus?

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 8, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd

pfff lol just kidding. This comment, wasn’t helpful, 0 stars.

10/24

by spectaa on Dec 8, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You must not have lost your faith in humanity yet, you really think people can think for themselves and be right? Hardly.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 8, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Brent, I dunno if you’re still reading comments after 420+, but keep up the good work. This is the kind of interesting investigative work that makes the MMA blogosphere worth a damn.

Have you considered contacting the Southern Poverty Law Center to see what they have to say about the company? If anyone is likely to know about ties to hate groups, it’s them.

by George Lucas on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 AM EST reply actions  

Blerg

I have a software demo on wednesday and I’ve pretty much stopped working completely since 4:54 to follow this thread. o_O

Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.

This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.

Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson

by loboplata on Dec 8, 2009 12:58 AM EST reply actions  

Am I allowed to drive a Volkswagen(Hitler’s idea)? or to wear Hugo Boss(designed and made SS uniforms)? or wear an OCC shirt? I won’t support HR in any way, but where do we draw the line?

I am blinded by a sea of green.

by bubbafat on Dec 8, 2009 1:32 AM EST reply actions  

You can’t even say “Gesundheit” – only “God bless you” like a real American!

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 8, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't drive a BMW either

Seriously.

"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba

by Blackout612 on Dec 8, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Bravo

Good job Brookhouse.

Didn’t read the first article, but hopefully this was lit up.

by Rob Maysey on Dec 8, 2009 2:50 AM EST reply actions  

As a jew whose family survived Nazi Germany and the holocaust and has dealt with antisemitism, i don’t understand how anyone can argue agains the fact that the imagery and the talk of a 4th reich is anything but neo-nazi. I dealt with this shit since 5th grade and it’s disgusting that people cling to these ideals. What makes it worse is not being honest about it. If you’re anti-semetic then be be honest about it. Having SS bolts on shirts is using an image that only has one meaning in recent history. Using a swastika only has one meaning in recent history. Yes it also means good luck in hindu culture, but you know what? Your company isn’t fucking hindu. You are supposedly proud Germans and if you knew anything about Germany you’d also know that they are fucking embarrassed about this time in their history. They aren’t proud of it. They aren’t goose stepping around. They wish it didn’t happen. I dealt with neo-nazi skins in Boston while in college who freshmen year would seig heil and then say “hey how are you”. I was also known as the “floor jew”.

Sorry, i’ve been drinking alot tonight and am very fired up about this. I thank Brent and Nate for this article because you can’t have it both ways. You can’t use the images which only have one meaning to people and then claim you aren’t what those images are tied to.

by Matthew Roth on Dec 8, 2009 3:29 AM EST reply actions  

My point exactly.....

Regardless of the possibly non-Nazi historical references of these symbols, the fact is the Nazis DID use them and to use them now claiming “German heritage” is just a slap in the face to the families of WW2 survivors still living.

In 30, 80, maybe 100 years, there is a possibility that we wouldn’t be having this conversation, but for now, it’s just too soon. Drop it HR.

by Dexerion on Dec 8, 2009 7:27 AM EST up reply actions  

This is America and (unfortunately) we really cant do anything about this company. If they are not doing anything outright illegal, we just have to ignore it. Dont buy the shirts and they will realize the sponsorship dollars they spent were wasted.

NeoNazis love free publicity and they get this by pushing peoples buttons. This thread already has given their cause WAY too much attention – a win in their eyes.

by ryanwk628 on Dec 8, 2009 9:55 AM EST reply actions  

The UFC

bans sponsors from appearing in the Octagon for dozens of reasons, from the petty (sponsoring Fedor, being owned by Dan Henderson) to branding (despite the ubiquitous CondomDepot, there are scads of brands the UFC doesn’t want to be associated with), to competitive (no brands that compete with UFC sponsors like BurgerKing, Harley Davidson, etc no gyms that might compete with the new UFC gyms etc)
There is a huge difference between public and private sanctions. No one is calling for the government to step in and stop HR. We’re calling on 2 private companies (UFC and Spike TV) to not promote their brand.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 8, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I understand that, but no major company wants to seem in any way political – especially when the company only alludes to Nazi imagery and is not outright Nazi. Burger King has done some pretty creepy commercials that allude to adultery and other actions that are looked down on, but the UFC isnt going to ban them for that. And if they ban HR for using symbols that could be considered Nazi, the silver star argument will be brought up immediately in their defense.

by ryanwk628 on Dec 8, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's what we need to do

Flood the UFC with messages about HR and let your disapproval be known. UFC website, Facebook, Twitter, whatever.
Keep it short and neat. Let them know we want an official statement from the UFC banning HR from sponsoring fighters and a promise that they will actually spend 30 seconds researching future sponsors.

Does anyone else think this whole thing could have been avoided if the UFC had just done a little bit of research? Seriously, how long would it have taken to discover what everyone else already has?

by Reciprocity on Dec 8, 2009 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

As for the symbols – if its not an outright Nazi shirt, and they deny it as such, there is nothing you can do but complain.

Let me draw a parallel to something most of us will be familiar with: porn. In porn, you have to be 18. You can wear whatever you want and say whatever you want. Now take an 18 year old… who looks like a 14 year old, dress her up in Nicktoons gear, have her pretending to be a little kid, and then get railed by a dirty old man. Yes its legal, but its capitalizing on the pedophilia fantasy. There are thousands of movies and magazines dedicated to this and Im sure a lot of you have viewed them.


“Have you seen that magazine “Barely Legal”? That means when you look at it, you’re “almost” a pedophile." – Dave Attell

Its the same thing here. Its “Barley Nazi”

by ryanwk628 on Dec 8, 2009 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

Barley Nazi

sounds like an Octoberfest Beer

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 8, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Does anyone know the best way to contact the UFC? Email? Phone? Snail mail?

I feel the need to do my part and let the UFC know that I can’t support the UFC if they continue to all HR to sponsor fighters.

by cmsove on Dec 8, 2009 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

I don’t know you you realize this but some of these symbols can mean other things as well.

I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.

by MonkeyCHops on Dec 8, 2009 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

yes and after they are bastardized by a group of hate mongers from a people whose history you claim to be proud of, you can’t play this card. yes the swastika is a good luck symbol in hindu, but you know what? they aren’t a fucking hindu company. they are a pro-german company (nothing wrong with this part). you can’t use symbols that are illegal currently in germany from a time period that germany isn’t proud of and then claim you aren’t neo-nazi.

by Matthew Roth on Dec 8, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m 99% sure Mac ended his affiliation with them after learning more about the company.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 8, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

And that's a wrap...

We’re going to close the comments in this one. Unfortunately we’re limited in the amount of comment sections we can fully moderate at once and the subject matter here is a bit too deep for us to not be giving it our full attention.

There will probably be more to come on this so we’ll continue the discussion when there are more details to discuss rather than the same stuff.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 8, 2009 10:46 AM EST reply actions  

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