Keith Kizer Explains Jon Jones Disqualification Ruling
by Luke Thomas on Dec 6, 2009 1:32 PM EST
in MMA News
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PrintMMA Junkie talks to Kizer:
Kizer said despite the numerous legal blows that came in the barrage - as many as 85 depending on who's counting - the fact that the illegal blows were shown to have caused the damage meant disqualification was the only proper call.
"At the end of the day, you have the illegal elbows that cut [Hamill] up, and that's why it was stopped," Kizer told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "The only call you can make in that situation is a disqualification.
"Because there was definitely some damage done by lawful elbows, it was difficult to determine what caused what until he saw the instant replay. Then it was very easy. It would have been a tough call for him without the instant replay just due to the good strikes that preceded the illegal blows. That's why we added it."
Animated gif of the illegal blows in the full entry.
via MMA TKO
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http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/6/17/912155/instant-replay-in-mma-keith-kizer
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"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
Yes the blows were illegal and instant replay did it's job.
But I still say the match should have been called 5-6 legal elbows before the illegal ones were landed.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
wouldnt happen
he was literally trying to entice the ref into stepping in at one point regardless of the damage done or not
if you’re trying to put a ref in the position where he could’ve stopped it early and wrongly, because you made him believe it was just, then this is what happens
"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
by blubber_guard on Dec 6, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
*note
not that it was a sort of, “well thats what you get”
more, on jones part, if this doesn’t work il l just cut him up this way
and quick desperate thoughts lead to his own DQ
"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
by blubber_guard on Dec 6, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Roy Nelson did the same thing against Kimbo
And the fight was stopped.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
He also was taking no damage whereas Hamill was being bludgeoned.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
it all boils down to "intelligently defending" himself
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 6, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
hamill was at least using his own arms to deflect the strikes that jones was throwing.
whereas in the crucifix position that kimbo was in against nelson, the punches were landing directly to the head, with no way for them to be blocked or prevented.
the shots that jones was throwing were more damaging, regardless of them being partially blocked by hamill. but from a referee’s point of view, i think the site of “unblocked” shots to the head still influences the decision of how to call the fight… rightly or wrongly.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
plus most of the elbows missed, or were blocked..
and Hamill was alert and defending himself well..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 6, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
It was a desperate defense but
I certainly didn’t perceive it as one that was effective or intelligent. If the fight hadn’t been called because of the illegal elbows, there was no indication that Hamill was going to do anything more than lay there and eat fists. Jones had him down and mounted decisively, Hamill wasn’t even trying to get out of the mount in any credible fashion.
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Right, but...
I also don’t think there’s any way Jon Jones could have kept up that intensity forever. It was fucking impressive to go as long as it did- I kept thinking, “Man, he’s got to be getting tired” . If Jones thought he could have just done that forever until he finally broke down Hamill, he should have just contined doing it. Instead he broke the rules and lost. Give him mounds of credit for his actual skill in the fight and his class afterwards, though…
Absolutely
I don’t think there’s anyone who is going to look back at that fight and think that’s it’s a true “loss” or a black mark on Jones’ record. He was electric the entire fight — I don’t know that he’d be that good against a more technically proficient striking opponent than Hamill but he was fun to watch.
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Just because the fight was very close to being over doesn’t change the fact that it was the illegal elbows that the ref stopped on and the cut they caused that he ended the fight for. If Jones had just kept on with legal blows he could of ended it but that is irrelevant at this point.
by who me on Dec 6, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Get over it, your man was beat.
He was tooled. It was over as soon as he stepped into the cage. He walked right into Matt’s trap. Everything he tried just got him deeper and deeper into trouble. I haven’t seen a fighter so beautifully suckered into another’s fight plan since Randy schooled Timmy. Face it, it was a royal beat down.
Or maybe not. To be honest, I was stoned during the fight.
Niether was Hamill
I didn’t see him trying to improve his position at all. His legs were flailing a bit, but he wasn’t trying to escape the position and he was not fighting back. They always say that covering up against strikes is not an intelligent defense.
by asa on Dec 6, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
most of those shots missed..
he was defending those elbows well.. until jones threw and landed those illegal blows.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 6, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
He already had blood in his eyes and the cut on the bridge of his nose.
by asa on Dec 6, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
yep
and everyone dogged him for it
if you wanna ref, then ref
you wanna be a figher, put your opponent out
"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
by blubber_guard on Dec 6, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
It’s interesting that he said it would have been a TKO if the elbows weren’t to the head.
I thought the option would have been NC, but if they’re saying they stopped the fight because of the cut, not because of the shoulder injury or the strikes, then it makes perfect sense.
Excellent call by Maz, regardless of how bad it sucks that Jones lost like that. I felt bad for Matt, because after taking such a beating, then getting the win, he just looked broken. Honestly, Hamills standup continues to impress me, hopefully his shoulder isn’t anything serious and him and Jones are back in action soon.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
it was dead quiet after Jones stood up and Hammill just laid there with the blood in his eyes looking half-dead. eerie.
not hearing what maz was saying, hamill might not have known exactly what was going on. he might have thought he had just lost the fight and not known he was being asked to stand up.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
Wow those elbows gifs make MMA seem way more brutal than the typical acceptable violence i associate with mma
The thing about elbows.....
They rarely KO an opponent (unless you’re Anderson Silva) and they can end a good fight because of a cut. Do we need them?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
How often do they stop fights because of cuts?
UFC and Dream had the same number of cut stoppages this year (3). I don’t know how many of those were caused by elbows, but the cut thing is a myth.
There is a gif above that kind of supports that myth.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
So because elbows that are already illegal caused a fight to be stopped, we should ban all elbows, awesome idea.
Broken nose is what it looks like
Fedor got the same thing from a punch and bled like crazy. removing elbows would just continue the slide towards ultimate boxing and remove the strongest defensive strikes you have with your arms.
by asa on Dec 6, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
fedor's nose wasn't broken...
"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
by blubber_guard on Dec 6, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
so.. if you cant KO someone with it, we question its worth
as a legal form of attack?
/facepalm
"he's the best punchy face man in the buisness"
by blubber_guard on Dec 6, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
Brutal.
A stupid way to lose a fight, but Jonny Bones should’ve known to stick to 9-3 elbows like everyone else does. It’s not like he couldn’t have rearranged Hamill’s face that way, either.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 6, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions
You know, those elbows might just merit a fine from the commission. The more I see the replays, the more disgusted I get.
I don’t buy for one second that these guys don’t know the rules, especially a gifted striker like Jones.
I specializes in grammar fail.
I don't know
It’s pretty east to get caught up in the moment. I’m not excusing him, he got what he deserved (with the L), but I can understand it at the same time. He was trying to finish the fight. He went too far, but with the adrenaline and the excitement of the moment, it seems more excusable to me than say, kneeing a downed guy in the face or something.
by mictlantechutli on Dec 6, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
It looked to me that he was just trying to shoot for the open spot and dodge hammil’s arms and hands as he was throwing the elbows. he was making legal ones and glancing off of hammil’s arms as he was going in and adjusted to the opening down the center. I am not excusing it, he is still a young fighter and it isn’t something that you keep in the forefront of your memory. I pretty much forgot about the rule until I saw it happening.
Ouch!!
Those elbows look really brutal. I love how Jon Jones flipped the switch to “kill mode” the moment he had the mount. Someone really needs to tell Jon Jones to tuck his chin down though. Some of the punches that Hammil hit him with would be a little more damaging from a beter striker.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
Here's the takedown that wrecked Hamill's shoulder:
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 6, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions
I like how Goldberg called that a Greco-Roman takedown. The ignorance is staggering.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 6, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I thought it was a Tae-kwon-do throw?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Looks like judo to me.
Goldberg is a lazy bastard, he should know this stuff, it’s like he just doesn’t give a damn.
10/24
That's a tie-up trip
straight out of folkstyle/freestyle wrestling.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
My general understanding is that a greco throw involves no leg sweeps. I think it is fair enough to say it is a greco throw though. He is utilizing his very good greco technique and just adding in the trip to make the move even more effective. I doubt Jones took a judo class to learn that throw, he just made a simple adjustment that he couldn’t make under greco compeition rules.
A greco throw + leg attack = freestyle/folkstyle throw. No good reason whatsoever to call it greco.
by JRN on Dec 6, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Right . Greco Roman wrestling doesn’t allow any lower body attacks. That was a judo throw called osoto gari and it was as devastating an osoto gari as I’ve ever seen.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 6, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
That is your big problem?
That he called a modified Greco throw a Greco throw instead of a freestyle throw? Seriously?
Did you know exactly what is was as you watched it? If you did, go into announcing because these guys get one chance only to make their comments without the benefit of dvrs, gifs, etc…
I’m not a big fan of Goldberg, but give the guy a break on not getting the exact right name for the style that Jones’ hybrid throw came from. Hell, I doubt Jones himself could say exactly which of the many martial arts he’s trained was the origin of that throw.
Arguing about the names of motions done in a low rules environment like MMA is pretty pointless in my opinion. There are only so many motions that the human body can do that people from different backgrounds will end up doing the same thing but calling it by different names.
Guillotine.
seconded. it’s not like anyone holds a patent over certain types of moves. jones tripped hamill. how about that.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
Um, Greco wrestling doesn’t allow trips. If it was a bodylock of some sort that ended in a takedown, I could see your point. Since it was a throw that would be blatantly illegal in Greco Roman-no.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 7, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
That he called a modified Greco throw a Greco throw instead of a freestyle throw? Seriously?
Calling that a modified greco throw would be like calling an elbow to the face a “modified boxing punch” because the setup is similar.
Did you know exactly what is was as you watched it?
Enough to see he was attacking the leg, making it a non-greco throw. This does not take any special degree of combat sports knowledge.
I’m not a big fan of Goldberg, but give the guy a break on not getting the exact right name for the style that Jones’ hybrid throw came from.
He didn’t have to name the exact style, he had to NOT call it a greco throw. Joe Rogan just said “nice trip”—that was a perfectly fine way to call it.
by JRN on Dec 7, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shoulder not broken
From Josh Gross’s Twitter:
SI_JoshGross Update on Matt Hamill. His left shoulder was dislocated, not broken. And doctors popped it back in at the hospital.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
The absolute scariest thing about Jones, is how easy he makes it look. Matt Hamill’s wrestling is serious business, and Bones just ragdolled him like he was tooling a new guy in the gym.
He at alot of jabs though, thats my only complaint.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 6, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
takedowns can’t end fights is the new leg kicks can’t end fights.
by some schmuck in texas on Dec 6, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Hamill quit because of his shoulder. Maz should have found out why the fighter quit before making the call.
by Chris Barton on Dec 6, 2009 7:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
So repeated illegal blows should go unnoticed?
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 6, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
he didn’t quit, the fight was stopped because of a cut.
by Phildo on Dec 6, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well… had it NOT been stopped right then because of the cut, hamill would likely have quit a moment later. he couldn’t even stand straight because of the shoulder separation.
but nobody knew that at the time and i don’t agree with vegasbatman above that maz should have done anything differently. it’s unfortunate because jones was cruising to a great victory, but it doesn’t seem like any officials did anything wrong here.
sometimes things just happen in frustrating way. jones made a small but very costly mistake.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
Hamill didn’t quit the ref stopped the fight because of the cut and upon replay they saw that the cut was caused by the illegal elbows, didn’t you read the article?
The ref asked Hamill if he could continue – Hamill said “No”, so it was stopped. WHY he said “No” can be debated – whether it was from the dislocated shoulder, the elbows, or general broken will. But he was asked…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Problem is, Hamill could neither hear nor see Mazagatti (due to blood in his eyes). I seriously question whether he had any idea what Mazagatti was saying.
I don't know, hearing imparment isn't complete hearing loss.
It seemed to me that Maz asked him if he could continue and he immediately said no.
If he couldn’t see nor hear, he wouldn’t have even realized that someone had asked him a question and that he should respond.
Off topic … when Manhoef Ko’ed Slowinski in K1, the ref asked Slowinski what is his name and he answered Wednesday. The funny part is that it was Saturday.
by dancingChicken on Dec 7, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
It seemed to me that Mazzagatti stopped it after not getting any response from Hamill who couldn’t hear nor see him. Also that cut does not usually lead to a stoppage as Keith Kizer suggests, the only reason he had blood in his eyes was that he was on the ground. This fight was a huge mess, its sad that it was the first time they used instant replay and still made such a huge mistake.
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