Report: Jon Jones Loses Appeal on Matt Hamill Fight
Heavy.com reports:
Jon Jones' appeal to the Nevada State Athletic Commission to overturn referee Steve Mazagatti's decision in his bout against Matt Hamill earlier this month has been denied. The NSAC stated that they don't overturn decisions and decided against ruling on the appeal.
Heavy.com confirmed the news with Jason Genet, the manager of Jones, Shane Carwin and other fighters.
Dana White has been an outspoken critic of Steve Mazzagatti, as recently as this Saturday.
Maggie Hendricks wrote an impassioned response to the Scott Smith come back win over Cung Le that pointed out something I've been harping on a long time -- if Dana White wants good officiating in the UFC and WEC's fights, he needs to lean on the NSAC to bring back Big John McCarthy -- or at least allow Big John to ref UFC events in California where Big John is currently licensed. Here's Maggie:
Referees have the tough job of deciding whether a fighter is healthy or not, knocked out or not, able to continue or not. Boxing and MMA referees have more to do with who wins and loses than in most other sports. If a football referee makes a mistake, it can affect the outcome of the game, but it may not.
That's not true in MMA. If a referee calls the end of a fight too early, a fighter will not only lose unfairly, but could lose the "win" part of his purse. If the referee is too late to stop, the fighter could be injured. Outside of Orlando Brown, a football referee's actions are unlikely to injure a player.
That's what makes the Nevada State Athletic Commission's waffling on McCarthy's application to ref in their state so puzzling. The man is a good referee. He's not perfect; he seems a little too concerned with his own fame and he's made some enemies in the world of MMA, but that doesn't seem to affect his ability to officiate a clear fight.
Even though Dana was tweeting away that firing Mazzagatti is solely the province of Keith Kizer, the head of the NSAC, only the deeply naive believe that Dana has no sway with the NSAC.
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"only the deeply naive believe that Dana has no sway with the NSAC"
Mazagatti is still reffing at every UFC events no?
Why would Dana have power and do nothing with it?
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
by spectaa on Dec 22, 2009 11:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Getting a man fired is pretty serious, but there are a few things I’m sure Dana has a say in.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 22, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Dana White obviously hates Steve Mazagatti. Keith Kizer obviously knows this and yet continues to have him ref UFC cards. It’s hard to exactly see where the argument comes from that Dana White is somehow mysteriously lying about the fact that he has no control over the refs. What does he stand to gain, if indeed he is lying about this?
I'm not saying he can snap his fingers and make Kizer fire Mazzagatti
but I do believe if he went to bat for Big John it would move mountains.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
but you imply that if white can keep big jon from reffing, he should be able to do the same to mazagatti, which just isnt the case. or am i reading into something?
by sadface on Dec 23, 2009 12:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
hiring someone who is obviously qualified is a lot easier than firing someone who is perceived as unqualified regardless of whether that perception is justified or not. Hiring much less frequently draws litigation.
However, the point about Dana’s sway over Kizer was made in the comment regarding Mazagatti, not Big John.
No...
Mazz is one of few NSAC licensed refs, therefore making banning him from events pretty much impossible. Preventing an unlicensed ref (Big John) from getting a new license is a much simpler task. Chalk it up to bureaucracy or delays or too many applicants… the excuses are numerous. Firing a guy who has been working his job for years is totally different, both for HR and PR. Especially the latter, given how the community reacted to girls who carry numbers getting fired.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Dec 23, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
does this really matter?
everyone considers this a win for jones anyway noones gonna hold it against him
Count me as one (of the few? the ONLY one?)
who thought this would go Jones’ way.
Atrocious, in my opinion. Absolutely terrible.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
They went to a replay of what occurred to determine it was a DQ, not sure how you thought this would get overturned…
Hamill was unable to continue because of a shoulder injury and not because of damage done by the elbows. If it weren’t for that shoulder injury, he would have continued. Because of that, Jones should have been deducted a point for the elbows and the fight should have continued. I understand what Mazagatti saw on the instant replay and I understand why he made the decision he did. There simply should have been better communication as to why Hamill needed the fight stopped in the first place.
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Which is very difficult to do with a deaf guy who has blood in his eyes. Couldn’t Maz at least have stood Hammill up and had his corner wipe the blood out of his eyes before deciding what to do?
Good point – why was Hamill never offered the obligatory 5 min to recover?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 22, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
I think, and I could be wrong, that the 5 minute recovery period is only for groin strikes. Am I making that up, or can someone back me up here?
Also for eye pokes I know
and I’m pretty sure for knees to the head or back of the head strikes.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I understand what Mazagatti saw on the instant replay and I understand why he made the decision he did.
There’s not really much to discuss then.
yep
hamill was defending himself (with a messed up shoulder), jones got frustrated at not being able to finish and resorted to illegal strikes.
soon as that happens the illegal strikee, whether he can continue or not, can say he can’t and get the win.
how could anyone have known his shoulder was messed up? he was flailing his arms around and blocking many of jones shots. hindsight is 20/20
"Live fast, die."
No Mazz should've consulted with his translater in that case...
Because apparently it wasn’t the damage to his face that caused him to stop fighting… it was the shoulder. That means that Jones should have been deducted a point, and then if Hamill couldn’t continue due to the shoulder, its a tko.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Dec 23, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is the crux of the matter. excellent post.
by sadface on Dec 23, 2009 12:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
This is the key point to the entire situation.
Mazzagatti should NOT have the authority to unilaterally determine why the fight cannot continue. This is why we have ring doc’s and translators, to speak to the fighters and better understand the situation.
Mazz made a well-intentioned call (I really believe that) but ultimately he was incorrect. Read that again: The referee was incorrect in his reasoning for why the fight could not continue.
Point deduction for the illegal strike, ask the fighter what the problem is, have the doctor consult, and THEN make the final determination as to whether or not the fight can continue.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I think it’s all moot, the elbow is the straw that broke the camels back.
Yes, the shoulder was messed up, but Hamill was surviving with it (if it should have been stopped beforehand is another issue, but Mazz the person who makes that decision said it wasn’t)
If a fighter gets pounded on for 14 minutes of a 15 minute fight, but then gets fouled and can’t go on, it doesn’t matter what happened for those 14 minutes, the foul is the last thing that happened, so that’s what makes the determination.
I just can't express how much I disagree.
I’m trying to come up with an appropriate analogy here, but nothing’s perfect. Let me give it a try, anyway.
It’s like overturning a TD in football because of a 10 yard foul on the 2-point conversion attempt, when in reality all the scoring team needed was the TD’s 6 points to take an insurmountable lead and hold it for one kickoff before the clock’s final second expired. The outcome was essentially decided, and the foul had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Nothing.
It’s like overturning a run scored in baseball because the scorer, after the play is completed, turns around and clocks the catcher before being ejected from the game. The punch to the catcher had nothing to do with the run scoring, and the proper sanction is to eject him and perhaps suspend him for a few games. You don’t delete the run, that’s absolute nonsense.
If Hamill had been unable to continue due to the illegal elbow, then you’re absolutely right. The illegal strike caused the irreparable damage, and so the outcome hinges on that(those) strike(s).
The fight was as over when it hit the mat as it would have been, had Jones applied and executed an omoplata. Nearly EXACTLY the same. The ref is to blame for his own incompetence in not recognizing that the joint was previously broken, and the fight should have been stopped then and there, as is customary for an MMA bout. If there are broken bones or seriously damaged muscles or ligaments that affect a fighter’s ability to fight effectively and/or defend himself (which this clearly describes the situation), then the fight is stopped and the outcome is decided then and there.
Now, if it were not customary to stop a fight if a major limb has been broken/seriously impaired functionally, then my argument would have no weight. But I’m right. The fight was already decided before Jones started throwing the LEGAL elbows, forget about the illegal ones.
Referee incompetence at perhaps its worst. Firstly the ref failed to identify a fighter as being seriously impaired, secondly he allowed said fighter to endure FAR too much punishment, and third he decided to stop the fight and unilaterally declare stoppage based on nothing but his own judgment, when it is clearly not within his purview to do so.
And finally, as if this weren’t enough of a rant, the icing on the cake is that this was the first implementation of the much vaunted Instant Replay system for the UFC, and the bottom line is the NSAC didn’t want egg on their face for their first usage of the system. Again, terrible reasoning, allowing politics to interfere in an open-and-shut situation.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
So should we go back and give Gonzaga the belt because he broke Randy’s arm?
It’s NOT customary to stop the fight when a limb is broken. It is customary if a limb is clearly broken in a move directly intended to injure the limb. Arm broken in armbar, choked out in a choke, etc. If you break your arm in and the ref can’t tell, the fight goes on, if you pop out your shoulder, roll your ankle, break your hand, the fight goes on.
Hamill was not “out” until the elbow, he was able to flail around and intelligently defend himself (according to the ref) until the elbow. The elbow is what caused him to be unable to get up, the elbow is what the decision should be baased on.
So you're saying that policy is to allow fighters to continue
as long as the referee isn’t aware of their major injury? I guess I can go with that. My problem with this whole situation, though, is that Mazzagatti didn’t ascertain the presence of the injury prior to making his decision.
Either this is combat first, sport second, or it’s sport first, combat second. Throughout the history of the UFC, it’s been the former, not the latter. And if it is still the former, then it’s about determining who wins the engagement, while adhering to the rules. This particular engagement was won by Jones. The foul occurred after the outcome had been decided.
But whatever, I’m apparently alone in my sentiment, so I’ll stop barking up this particular tree.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
That’s the policy I’ve always seen.
Randy continued against gonzaga, Shamrock continued for a while against Cung Le, Faber continued against Brown.
The only time a fight is stopped because of an injury is when it’s blatantly obvious to everyone that the fighter can’t continue because of the injury. Like Sylvia/Mir, Silva/Cote, Corey Hill, Shogun/Coleman.
Hamill injured his shoulder, he kept fighting, Mazz determined he was intelligently defending himself, the shoulder has nothing to do with anything. If there is a stand up for any other reason but a foul and Hamill can’t get up, then it’s a TKO, but there was a foul, so it’s a DQ.
Alright, I see your point.
I think it leaves a massive blind spot which gives refs too much leeway in determining the severity or fight impact of an injury. But if them’s the rules, ok.
My impression is that whenever the ref sees a broken bone, or sees major ligament/tendon damage like that which is caused by a completed omoplata, they declare the fight over. If that’s entirely up to the ref, then yeah, incompetence in identifying injury allows the ref to essentially make a non-judgment call.
It seems like a massive hole in the system, but I see what you’re saying, and it sounds like it might hold enough water to actually be their system. I thought this type of thing would have been addressed in the rules, but this is a relatively young sport.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
LOL, you’re wrong.
It doesn’t really matter what anyone thinks. The fight was stopped due to the elbows. And that’s the final word. It’s pretty clear cut.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 8:06 AM EST up reply actions
1. It doesn’t matter really. This isn’t going to affect Jon Jone’s career in any meaningful matter. He’ll lose his win bonus, but he’ll make up for that from the increased popularity anyway.
2. The only real somewhat unresolved question in my mind is why Hamill was “unable to continue”. If the blood in the eyes was sufficient to stop the fight than its correct. If the stoppage allowed Maz to discover the shoulder then I don’ t agree.
3. As has been pointed out Hamill was sort of fighting on the ground with a busted shoulder, so presumably he could have sort of continued. Not that I would have complained about a stoppage, but it was what it was.
It might be my imagination, but...
I swear that after Jones got off of Hamill, Maz leaned over and asked Hamill if he could continue and Hamill said “No”.
Am I the only one that saw that?
1. Exactly. I mean, everyone saw what the outcome would have been, and all the indications are that the UFC knows that everyone saw that.
2. I think the problem is that Mazz stopped the fight due to the elbow strikes, and then Hamill couldn’t continue. They’d have to change the rule to account for that.
If the reason the fighter couldn’t continue PERTAINED to the injury that resulted in the stoppage, then the fight is ruled a disqualification.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
That rule above would allow Jones to win because Hamill couldn’t continue due to the shoulder, not his face being busted up… unless the doctor also stated that the cuts were too deep for the fighter to continue.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
If that’s the case, then I don’t see why this is an issue.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'm the only one holding the torch, so I'll assume a
more passive role here.
The reason I think it’s an issue is because we didn’t hear this specific issue addressed by anyone. It was studiously ignored by Kizer & Co. which makes me think they knew exactly what happened and they were just covering their position to protect their integrity.
If we have Hamill on record, the night of the fight, saying the reason he couldn’t continue was because of the blood in his eyes, then the whole thing is moot from my end. My understanding, looking at the footage, and hearing his immediate post-fight remarks, is that the reason he thought the fight was stopped had to do with his inability to defend himself due to the shoulder injury.
I don’t have the fight on DVR or anything, so if anyone can get a transcript of his comments that might help?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Gotta love it when you get LOL'd, then told you're wrong.
Quite productive.
Interesting play on words you use there, “The fight was stopped due to the elbows.” Of course it was stopped due to the elbows. If anyone is disputing that, they need to re-watch the event.
The question is why was Hamill unable to continue, to which we still have not received a definitive response. Hamill’s own post-fight statements indicated that the big problem he was having was with the busted shoulder. He never once mentioned blood in his eyes. If that were the primary concern, he likely would have mentioned it.
The lynchpin problem with this whole fiasco is that referees are (apparently) being given the authority to unilaterally declare stoppages due to injury. If Mazzagatti had been forced to consult with a doctor, and use Hamill’s translator, this fight would most certainly NOT have been ruled a DQ for Jones. There’s simply no disputing that, given all of the objective evidence. Mazz screwed up, in failing to collect all of the relevant information prior to making a decision.
As far as the elbows, it was the legal elbows which caused the massive cut. The downward elbows didn’t cause that particular wound, they merely exacerbated it.
This whole situation, while likely irrelevant to Jones’ career path (which is the most important factor at this point), demonstrates some serious holes in the NSAC’s application of rules.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
You are making alot of assumptions.
Maz, as refs do in all cases of illegal blows that I have seen, assess the situation and often ask the wounded fighter if he can continue.
In this case, as in the Varner case and others, the wounded fighter concluded that they could not continue.
I don’t think it is damning of Maz that he didn’t decide to play 20 questions and ensure that it wasn’t any number of other reasons as to why the fighter chose not to continue.
Maz called the fight over because Hamill responded that he could not continue, however it was the NSAC that determined it was a DQ for Jones, not Maz.
The question is why was Hamill unable to continue, to which we still have not received a definitive response. Hamill’s own post-fight statements indicated that the big problem he was having was with the busted shoulder. He never once mentioned blood in his eyes. If that were the primary concern, he likely would have mentioned it.
Mazz stopped the fight due to the illegal elbows. Because the elbows were the foul and Hamill wasn’t able to continue, he’s disqualified. There isn’t a distinction in the manual between what caused the stoppage and what ends the fight. Sure, it’s a problem, but I find it funny that everyone things the NSAC rulebook thought of this before it happened.
Once Jones went to the appeal, everyone should have known Kizer was going to shoot it down. There isn’t a specific rule to that course of action that happened. It just so happens the illegal blows caused a stoppage by Mazz, and then Hamill couldn’t continue due to the shoulder. It doesn’t have anything saying that the illegal blows and stoppage must pertain to the injury caused by those blows.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
i don't know why you would think this
since regardless of the merits of jones’ appeal the ac has in the past refused to overturn crystal clear fuck ups like johnson burns I
"You can't be hungry if you don't starve a little."
Well, as this is his first loss, and as the Saints just received their first loss this season, I’ll use those above words of encouragement I heard at Canal Street Chronicles. Jones will hardly be set back by this, and now has the burden of defending that “0” off his shoulders. I pity Vera.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 22, 2009 11:34 PM EST reply actions
Mazzagatti has the touch of shit. Everything he touches turns to shit. He also blew the stoppage in the Visher/Buck fight.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
Too early or too late?
Buck was getting abused and took some vicious hammerfists.
I think he stopped it in time.
FIRE JIM MORA NOW!
by SSreporters on Dec 23, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, give me a break. Stop feeding us the consensus thought. Visher/Buck wasn’t any worse than other fights we’ve seen. Just because Dana said it was crazy doesn’t mean it was over the top.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 8:07 AM EST up reply actions
Maggie Hendricks is the proverbial broken clock that’s right twice a day.
The woman does not deserve the platform she has.
Ribbit.
some of you SERIOUSLY think this DQ was bad??
Are you nuts? You cant use those types of elbows…and he used a bunch of them to tko Matt…what are you arguing about? So what if Matt was getting pwned before that and so what if he f-ed up his shoulder, he got nailed with a succession of illegal elbows and almost passed out. I was watching that and said “dood, this is gonna be a DQ…what a moron…he coulda had it so easily.”
If this was a different situation, say Randy v.s. Tim Sylvia, and Randy used a headbutt to ko Tim right at the end of the 5th round, he would have been DQed. It doesn’t matter that he beat Tim’s ass the entire time, he still would have taken the loss. Well, Matt v.s. Jon is sort of like that but with elbows instead.
by iTap on Dec 23, 2009 2:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
“I was watching that and said "dood, this is gonna be a DQ…what a moron…he coulda had it so easily."
Exactly what I was saying. Jones has no legs to stand on as far as appealing the DQ. He knew damn well that elbow spikes are illegal. But I don’t think this will meaningfully affect his MMA career – he was clearly destroying Hamill anyway.
certified warlord
Let's look at the positive from this.
Jon Jones destroyed Matt Hamill, and would have put him in the hospital had he not been stopped for the elbows. Bones will continue to tear up the division and I think we’ll see him get his title shot sooner than later. We haven’t seen such athleticism and diverse technique in a long time.
BONES!
You're dead on.
Most people (including myself, despite what my posts above may seem to indicate) have moved past it, especially since the L on his record will have absolutely zero impact on his ability to compete for a title in due time, and will likely have zero impact on his marketability.
He’s for real, and I’d expect him to be sporting the strap inside of two years. One year is probably pushing it, but possible, if Silva thinks he’s ready for higher level opponents.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
There’s history behind UFC having some say as far as the choice of officials go. Lesnar demanded to have someone else than Mazzagatti reffing Lesnar-Mir II – and got his wish.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 23, 2009 4:02 AM EST reply actions
Fighters can decline a ref
just not demand a particular one. Pretty sure of this, anyway.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Dec 23, 2009 5:14 AM EST up reply actions
Then why doesn’t Dana tell all fighters under contract to decline Mazzagati…
My thoughts are that if Dana really wanted to he could kick up enough stink to have Mazzagati gone. He has a big enough platform and certainly enough ammunition to launch an attack that would definitley sway public opinion and either get Mazzagati blackballed by every fighter or resign under the stress.
However, when it comes to bad reffing, Mazzagati is by far NOT the worst offender. He has made some dodgy calls in the past when it comes to those 50/50 moments but he at least knows the sport and isn’t standing up fighters during submission attempts and advanced positions. He is fairly prevalent at nearly all major UFC events and most other organizations and so Dana keeps bringing up his name as the worst referee in the business it will always be a constant reminder to everyone of the state of MMA refereeing and they will know that something still needs to be done.
I don’t think Mazzagati is the worst ref in the business, but if Dana White makes him the posterboy for it he has a good shot of changing public opinion which could in turn change refereeing for the better.
The Big John McCarthy situation on the other hand…
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
by Sam Cupitt on Dec 23, 2009 5:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. AGREED!
He really isn’t. Dana White has it out for him period, but he isn’t the worst.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 8:08 AM EST up reply actions
Agree as well.
Mazz is certainly not the worst ref out there, he just makes really bone-headed moves occasionally, which makes him stand out more than others. The body of his work is certainly not the worst in the business.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Dec 23, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
I remember when people hated Herb Dean, and I thought that was fucking bullshit that he was getting heat from fans. He’s absolutely one of the best. The whole Cerrone vs. Ratcliff fight was a textbook top notch performance by Herb Dean. Catches the ball shots and the fence grab, and I think the fence grab was a bit impressive because EVERYONE was watching the fighters… but not Herb. He was doing his job. Saw the hand, caught Cerrone.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Herb Dean is probably the best in the biz outside of Big John.
Everyone makes mistakes. Hell, Tim McClelland(sp?) is MLB’s best umpire, has been for years, and even he misses ~2% of strikes and balls. Refs are going to screw up. My only issue is that there’s a system in place that should be observed, to minimize referee ‘interference’ in the end result.
It’s why I don’t scream about Mazz losing his job over this kind of thing. The guy makes mistakes, and that’s ok. So long as they’re not Seahawks/Steelers Superbowl mistakes ;)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I agree.
Maz isn’t as bad as his rep indicates. His rep makes us look for the mistakes. He made the right call on the Jones v Hamill fight.
McCarthy, on the other hand, has the same thing going but in a positive way. He has rep for making great calls and so we all look at his work though that lens.
Anyway, how the hell does a story about the NSAC not overturning the Jones/Hamill decision into a Dana and McCarthy story…oh, yeah, Kid Nate….

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