Another Perspective on Strikeforce vs the UFC
by Kid Nate on Dec 20, 2009 12:30 PM EST
in MMA News
176 comments
Michael David Smith replies to my comments last night that Strikeforce is putting on shows comparable to the UFC's recent offerings He concedes my point that Strikeforce: Evolution and their January show are better cards than UFC 108 and 109 but raises some important counterpoints:
...we shouldn't carry this too far: Strikeforce doesn't have anywhere near the roster depth that the UFC does, and with the exception of Fedor Emelianenko, you're not going to see the truly elite, Top 10 pound-for-pound fighters in the world on Strikeforce shows.
In general, even if the entertainment value of the fights is better on a Strikeforce card, the quality of the fighters is going to be better in the Octagon. Melendez and Thomson gave us a more entertaining fight than B.J. Penn's beatdown of Diego Sanchez, but Melendez and Thomson are nowhere near as good as Penn. (In my opinion they're not as good as Sanchez, either.)
It should also be pointed out that the UFC gives fans a lot more fights than Strikeforce does: For UFC 108, the UFC will give fans two live fights on Spike, five live fights on pay-per-view and probably a couple of tape delayed fights mixed in there as well. If you watched Showtime on Saturday night, you only got four fights.
And in the spring, with Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida all likely to defend their UFC titles, it'll be almost impossible for Strikeforce to keep up with the UFC. In MMA, there's still a big gap between the UFC and everyone else.
This is very true. One thing that has been consistently misunderstood about my comments on the business aspects of Zuffa vs the world is that I'm not saying Zuffa is losing or falling behind. No, what I'm saying is that after the collapse of Afflction, Zuffa was very very close to OWNING the market for MMA in the U.S. and having incredible market dominance world-wide.
Had Dana White managed to sign Fedor Emelianenko the UFC would have had the dominant champion in ALL SEVEN major divisions of men's MMA. Once they had the no-doubt best fighters in the business in all the major divisions, then it's just a matter of maintaining the linear championships in the organization (ie don't let a champion leave undefeated) and ergo they ARE major league MMA, the way the NFL IS major league football.
But that moment slipped through their grasp. As apparently did the network deal that Dana White was supposedly on the verge of announcing right around that time.
Once Strikeforce and M-1 struck their unholy alliance, other players quickly joined their confederation: CBS/Showtime, K-1/DREAM, EA Games and competition in the major leagues of MMA continued.
The Comcast purchase of NBC has created some new opportunities for the UFC because of their pre-existing relationship with Versus. They've already announced they'll be putting a few UFC cards on the Versus network next year -- a huge boost for what had been a struggling cable channel. If Versus becomes the masthead of NBC Sports, the UFC could be in excellent position to compete head to head with Strikeforce on network television -- NBC/Versus/Spike against CBS/Showtime.
Zuffa is still far ahead, has much deeper pockets, a much deeper roster, an almost infinitely more committed fanbase and they're the odds on favorite to eventually establish themselves as the sole player at the top of the MMA heap, but they're not there yet.
And as we saw last night in Cung Le vs Scott Smith, sometimes you can be winning the fight handily until well into the late rounds and still lose.
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Nate, solid perspective. Only thing is that I think you are over-estimating the ability of Strikeforce to remain competitive by creating matchups. I really think that they need more of a roster (not borrowed from DREAM) and while cards like January’s event are awesome, you can’t really sustain that without a bigger roster. If something happened to Strikeforce like what happened to 108, Strikeforce doesn’t have the ability to create new matchups. Also I think people are giving 109 a bad rap when in reality it’s a solid card top-bottom.
In before the flood of Carano/Cyborg rebuttals.
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Dec 20, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
they'd cancel an event if they had a bad run of luck like the UFC has had
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
and how would that look to the media? 108 is seriously beat up but it will be a fun night of fights. We’ve just been spoiled by a ton of great cards.
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Nov 7th CBS, Dec. 19th, Jan 30th, April CBS is not sustaining it? And those are not even the Challenger shows.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 20, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
What happened to February and march?
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 5:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What would you pick?
UFC 109 – Feb 6 – PPV
Mark Coleman vs. Randy Couture
Josh Koscheck vs. Paulo Thiago
Demian Maia vs. Dan Miller
Nate Marquardt vs. Chael Sonnen
Matt Serra vs. Frank Trigg
Justin Buchholz vs. Mac Danzig
Melvin Guillard vs. Ronnys Torres
Tim Hague vs. Chris Tuchscherer
Rob Emerson vs. Phillipe Nover
Rolles Gracie vs. Mostapha Al Turk
Strikeforce: Miami – Jan 30 – Showtime
Nick Diaz vs. Marius Zaromskis
Cris Cyborg vs. Marloes Coenen
Robbie Lawler vs. Melvin Manhoef(?)
Jay Heiron vs Joe Riggs(?)
Bobby Lashley vs. TBA
Herschel Walker vs. TBA
if you had to choose only one that is...
most will obviously be watching both cards.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Nick Diaz vs. Marius Zaromskis is the one fight I want to see the most and Lawler vs Manhoef a close second….not based on anything but entertainment value.
Nick Diaz is a good step up in competition for Zaromskis. For an up-and-coming fighter like Zaromskis, if he wins, he may be in top ten discussion. I feel that fight has more than entertainment value and could determine rankings discussion. Lawler vs Manhoef is mainly for entertainment, but who would you give Manhoef as his first fight in Strikeforce and introduce him to the U.S. audience?
if this card didn't happen, Scott Smith would be a good alternative to Lalwer...
lets watch them bang.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
That's what she said
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Yup
I have watched so much of that show that I find myself saying that all the time. Much to the annoyance of everybody that knows me.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
That joke is far older than The Office.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 20, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Smith’s punch and kick me for 2 1/2 rounds gameplan is a healthy choice vs Manhoef but hey if it ain’t broke….
Are we talking for the same price? Because as it currently stands one cost $44.95 and the other is $9.95 with a month of free Showtime thrown in.
And are we going to get to see all of 109’s prelims?
All things equal is 109. Value for my dollar I’ll go with Miami.
you get two (or more) UFC 109 prelims for free on spike
5 main card fights, and probably 2 or more prelims sandwiched in between..
in show time you will get 4 fights (or maybe 5 if they get to put some prelims in)..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
He means tape-delays
Given extra time. But they exhibited last night that they may not do that at all.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Showtime cards almost always have five fights.
Anyway, even without knowing how the next SF card will fill out, paying 10-20 bucks a month for consistently good MMA sounds more appealing than paying 50 bucks for a card that is clearly not worth 50 bucks.
by smoogy2 on Dec 20, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No contest at all
UFC 109. But hopefully I’ll be able to get over to see the Strikeforce card live.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
This is the problem with discussing future strikeforce bouts… all the damn questions marks and TBA.
id take 109 in a heart beat (they both come at the same price for me…..) because it means something. Those fights set up title shots. If Couture wins he could get rushed to a title shot. Kos is oh so close to getting a rematch with GSP. How will Maia respond to getting KTFO and can he get back on track? Nate is one win away from a rematch with Silva.
Only person I am interested in for SF is Manhoef…. just because he punches as hard as Captain Falcon in SSBB
i missed something, actually it's
Nick Diaz vs. Marius Zaromskis
Cris Cyborg vs. Marloes Coenen
Robbie Lawler vs. Melvin Manhoef(?)
Jay Heiron vs Joe Riggs(?)
Bobby Lashley vs. Shane Del Rosario (not yet confirmed though)
Herschel Walker vs. TBA
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to say this...
but these days I really don’t feel I’m getting my money’s worth for these UFC cards…Coleman vs Couture is not worthy of headliner status and will not be a great fight. I want Nate to take out Sonnen and get his shot at Silva. Beyond that I think Kos should have to fight Fitch for either of them to get a rematch with GSP. Not saying the card can’t produce great fights but Zuffa is stretching themselves thin.
I get that,
especially when comparing the cards to the really good UFC cards… but when you compare it SF cards.. Rolles Gracie vs Mustapha Al Turk is starting to look really good right about now..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Thats
is what is great about capitalism, you don’t have to buy anyones product.
Exactly
And I don’t know one person in the world that is paying the whole 45 bucks for a UFC— you get together with your friends and it’s five bucks a head..
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
I pay $55 for each UFC, and have ordered each one (and every other mma ppv, even dynamite USA) since UFC’s return to ppv…I can’t stand watching sports with other people because they talk when shit is happening and don’t know as much about the sport as me…just like I watch the Superbowl by myself every year since I was 4 years old, then the next day I actually know what happened in the game while my friends always say “haha, i was so drunk i passed out at halftime”…so now you know one person…
by Reaser16 on Dec 20, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You, sir, are hard to the core. I completely understand where you’re coming from though. There are few things worse than watching a great fight and having some chump sitting beside you saying “this is gay, when are they going to stand up and punch each other” just as Maia is slapping on a sick arm triangle.
by HarmlessNinja on Dec 21, 2009 4:51 AM EST up reply actions
I've only done it a few times
when plans have fallen through for going to a bar or something. ↑ is right though, sometimes it is very distracting with other people, especially when there is a fight that I’m REALLY interested in.
"Maybe Mur is going through menopause and is retaining water"---Ubernoober
But one of those cards will cost you $45, and the other one won’t. To me, when you factor in the fact that you don’t have to drop $500-600 a year to see every card, Strikeforce gets a bump.
That is like saying
dating an ugly chick is cheaper than dating the prom queen.
and prom queens cost the same as super models
so I get why some people could hold out and wait for the supermodels before shelling out money… but ofcourse, for me, UFC cards are free, so if I had to choose one, i’d pick 109. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Lucky man.
Wish I could watch all UFC for free. I did pay $9.99 for Wargodz 2 lol.
I’d say that it’s more like saying that you’d rather date a cute chick with a great personality, and who is great in the sack, than a really hot chick with a bitchy personality who makes you shell out expensive gifts for the privilege of getting the occasional blowjob. If the cute chick hits the gym, and throws on a little lingerie from time to time, while taking care of herself, she could be a keeper in the long run. But obviously, if she falls off, or turns into a bitch herself, then you’ve gotta cut her loose.
And did I mention that the cute chick isn’t jealous at all, and doesn’t require that you be exclusive, nor does she talk shit about the competition?
But the upside,
the ugly chick will run off after she gets good looking. Or the ugly chick eventually kills you in your sleep.
Ha
I like this analogy, especially the last part about not being jealous.
6 Top-10 fighters in their weight class and 1 of the most popular MMA'ers of all time
vs. the Chick who looks like some sort of Bond Villan Henchwoman.
SF biggest biggest bragging rights come from the fact that their fights are entertaining, completly ignoring the fact that almost all of these fighters aren’t in the top-15 of their weight class. You can see entertaining fights at the local watering hole.
I prefer watching the best in the sport.
by SidHartman on Dec 20, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Can you really fault Strikeforce though?
I mean, the UFC has the most elite fighters out there. Who can Strikeforce honestly get besides prospects, the few amounts of quality fighters out there, and the veterans with some name value like Lindland or Whitehead? Strikeforce arguably has the next best fighters after the UFC, so why or how can one expect more from them? The implied comparison with Strikeforce and “the local watering hole” is a little exagerrated too.
That's exactly my point.
I like watching the BEST fighters in the world. The only time I’ve watched SF live was when Fedor fought . Against a borderline Top-10 guy.
I would watch Strikeforce....
Even if UFC wasn’t PPV…..some people on the previous article were putting down Strikeforce for putting Smith in the main event. Smith is way more fun to watch than Coleman.
by ultimoshogun on Dec 20, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
that's where the difference of opinion comes in...
Some people prefer seeing the top(or more accomplished) fighters more..
some people prefer entertaining fighters more..
some people prefer cheese.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
"Smith is way more fun to watch than Coleman."
Coleman never lost to Ed Herman.
By that logic, it sounds like you demand that Drew McFedries be on every main card.
Well hopefully
I’m going to be at the Jan 30th show. My buddy’s uncle just signed a 3 fight deal with strikeforce and we are trying to go down and see him fight. I’m thinking about doing a fan post (my first) to detail out everything about him, his gym etc.
"Maybe Mur is going through menopause and is retaining water"---Ubernoober
And along the lines of seeing good fights without the fighters having to be top ten, looking at the Cung Le fight. Personally I didn’t find the fight very entertaining. Cung Le spoke about people liking to watch him fight and I got bored watching him spin kick, knowing he couldn’t do that crap against a top fighter and then when he got the guy down, couldn’t do anything with him. There is a big difference watching “matchups” and having top fighters fight each other.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
I’m shocked that someone from MMA Fanhouse would stand up for Zuffa like that! Next you’ll have a Kevin Iole counter too…
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Is it any different than the anti-zuffa rhetoric of mmapayout?
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Probably not, except I don’t think Payout reporters actually work for Strikeforce’s comeptition.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a huuuuge accusation. It’s illegal to do this. Much like the payola scandal with Alan Freed. I know that there are ways around this but that’s a major accusation.
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Chiapetta works for Spike, Ariel Helwani works for Versus. I don’t think it is a secret, although they don’t disclose that information in their posts. It would be like Peter King working for Al Davis but forgetting to mention it every time he wrote about the Raiders in MMQB.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Except Ariel and Chiapetta aren’t anti-strikeforce. They are just favorable to Zuffa. Point is that everyone can point out that Iole is a mouthpiece/pro-zuffa, but there are plenty of anti-zuffa reporters (aka Josh Gross).
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
They aren’t just favorable to Zuffa. There is an economic component.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Yes they work for companies that Zuffa is in business with. But they don’t ignore the competition.
by thisredengine on Dec 20, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
That was nonsensical. Sorry, I am nearly a mongloid. Payout’s Kelsey Philpott works for Mark Cuban who is indirectly in competition with Zuffa. MMAfighting.com reporters work for Zuffa partners, who are directly in competition with Strikeforce. So, they are similar, but one is a little more entrenched.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
No one at Heavy.com works for any MMA promotion. When I enter into an economic relationship with a fighter or promotion (in the works) it will certainly be disclosed in any post regarding that fighter. That just makes sense.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just being silly.. wasn't actually a serious comment. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
It is a fair question though. I don’t think MMA reporters are necessarily very transparent and it is a long running problem. I mean, look at the template for MMA reporting, Full Contact Fighter. They have been in business with the fighters they cover since day one.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
They don’t have the anit-Zuffa writer in MMA Payout anymore. Kelsey is pretty straightforward and doesn’t side with one promotion over the other.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 20, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
LOL. This would make sense if:
A. It were true
and
B. Breaking “news” included running what are essentially press releases.
by JonathanSnowden on Dec 20, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
There seem to be far to many people who are actually emotionally invested in this whole UFC vs. Strikeforce crap….as if they own some stake in one of the freakin companies. I guess there would have been a time where I was like that too…but these days I just like watching good fights….period. I don’t care if they’re from the UFC, WEC, Strikeforce, Dream, or whoever. Last night I happened to watch the Strikeforce show and was entertained. I’m sure in the eyes of some on here that will make me some anti-Zuffa extremist. But I also watched the last UFC show, and thought it was one of their better offerings in awhile. So sue me.
by joshyboy708 on Dec 20, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I have to wonder if some MMA fans are actually threatened that there is an alternative that doesn't look like it's going away out there
The UFC vs Strikeforce war is magnified by both the UFC (Dana White) and Strikeforce (signing fighters like Henderson or Fedor). The Strikeforce detractors will point out that Strikeforce’s fights aren’t “relevant” to MMA as a whole especially as far as rankings are concerned, and they just put fights on that are “entertaining.” That makes sense actually, but I don’t see the reasoning why that lowers a person’s enjoyment of the fights. Others will say that they just like watching fights whether it is from the UFC, Strikeforce, DREAM, etc.
I find Strikeforce fights entertaining and do enjoy watching them, just don’t compare them to the UFC. Watching an exciting fight is great, but I would much rather watch better fighters even if it isn’t as exciting. I want to see the best. It is just like I would rather watch the NFL even though I do find high school football games enjoyable as well.
by Sliup on Dec 20, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good post
People always feel like they have to take a side. It’s like they’re more interested in being part of a “team” rather than actually enjoying the fights. Might be some sort of commentary on the isolation we experience in today’s society and the need for a man to be a part of something larger than himself… or might be that some people are just herd-minded douchebags.
I went to the Strikeforce last night
And I still don’t understand how anyone could say that Strikeforce has a better card than UFC 108 or 109.
King Mo’ VS can? Whitehead didn’t even train.
Florian would demolished either Thomson or Melendez. I’m sorry, 5 round of punches and kicks and not a scratch on any of their faces?
I’m a huge Cung Le fan, but in the UFC, any of their elite wrestlers would maul both Le and Scott Smith.
Jacare is the real deal, I have to give him that.
The preliminary on the Strikeforce card was abysmal. I would never miss the preliminary fights on the UFC 108 card. Let’s get serious here: UFC put on compelling matches and Strikeforce put on good fights on the main card, but most are all showcase fights, such as King Mo versus an overweight Whitehead and Cung Le VS an overmatched Scott Smith (oops!). There’s a reason why Whitehead and Scott Smith are out of the UFC. Let’s put things into perspective, please.
by cyph on Dec 20, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
As far as King Mo is concerned, look at his level of competition before his fight with Whitehead. Whitehead is actually a step up from who Mo has been fighting. After beating Whitehead, it would make sense for Mo to fight a Babalu or someone of that caliber. I don’t see the problem in booking Mo vs Whitehead.
BJ Penn demolished Florian. It’s obviously discrediting Thomson and Melendez by saying so-and-so would beat them when that is hardly relevant. The fight does have relevance especially since Melendez may fight Aoki next.
It is clearly obvious that Le or Smith would get killed by many in the UFC. The fight was there just to be an entertaining fight.
The UFC fighters as a whole are clearly much higher quality than the Strikeforce fighters, there is no denying that.
On paper that sounds good about Whitehead, but the problem is, Whitehead is a LHW who decided to eat his way to 260 to fight at HW against a guy who was going to weigh in at 220.
That would have been a great fight for Mo if Whitehead showed up at an in shape 220-230, but coming in the way he did, it’s a can fight.
Looking at Mo’s last fight, even an out of shape Whitehead is a step up from who Mo was fighting. I actually liked the booking regardless because now it makes sense for Mo to fight Babalu, Soukodjou or someone of that caliber, and not make it seem like it would be a huge step up in competition for Mo.
The premise of this article makes no sense
No one is questioning whether Strikeforce is bigger than the UFC, it’s absolutely irrelevant. The only question to ask after each non-UFC promotion show, was it good enough to build on for the next show?
Mousasi and Shields have made it pretty clear that they want to skip to the UFC after their contracts are up.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
I know Shields is gone like a shot and Mousasi wouldn’t agree to fight Hendo for 40/40 and has said his long term goal is the UFC 205 belt.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
I really hope Mousasi kicks M-1 to the curb.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Dec 20, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
On Paper
On Paper Ufc of course is the shit…but you never know until they enter the Ring (or Cage)…thats why i Like Coker…he gives everybody a chance to fight…and do their own things…Reminds me of the Old days of AFL Vs NFL
If you're paying the whole 45 everytime you watch a UFC
You should probably stick with Showtime, because you’re lonely enough to need 24 hours of movies. It’s ridiculous how many people up top directly compare the cost when everyone I know in real life spends five bucks to see a UFC with their friends. Is anyone here seriously fronting the total bill when it’s a financial burden?
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 20, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I am.
I watch every UFC event with my 2 sons (8 and 13). We BBQ on the grill, bring in folding tables to eat/drink off of.
We also move out some of the furniture when the wife leaves so they can play BJ Penn vs Lesnar vs GSP vs Fedor.
by Riney on Dec 20, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I do
I invite people over and foot the entire bill. I provide the alcohol too. Yeah, I’m a gracious host.
Then the people you invite shouldn't be complaining. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They don’t complain. I’m the only one of all my friends who own a house. For some reason, to them it means I have more money so they don’t feel like they have to contribute. Whatever, cheap bastards.
by cyph on Dec 20, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
note to friends of cyph:
pay maybe 5 bucks each.. or at least bring the beer…
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
note to cyph:
get more (not cheap) friends… ;)
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha
I used to do the same thing a few years back. Now we have a circuit of friends who take turns hosting, their wives make food, we all pitch in to pay it off and bring our own booze. It’s a perfect system.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Right on
So it’s no burden. I’m just saying, most of the guys up here saying “this card isn’t worth 45 bucks”. Okay, so you either owe all 45 and you have every right not to order it, or you’re honestly paying 5-10 at a communal viewing with friends (or going to a bar where it’s free outside of the food and alcohol you pump into your stomach).
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
I either do the 5-10 with friends or if nobody else really wants to buy in I’ll go to a bar by my house. Since I’m under 21 they make me pay a ten dollar cover. If I want to eat a burger while I watch I’m looking at 18 to 20 bucks. Its not the biggest investment in the world but I do look at the card and see if its worth it. I think the price is a very real issue here.
Doesn't take away from my point
Most people aren’t paying 45+ that hamburger/steaks to grill/bottle of booze/case of beer/cab fare/strippers for post-show celebration/coke in gas station bathroom/bail for DUI/roses for wife. Like I said, I personally don’t know anyone that pays the whole 45 and it seems everyone in this thread says so matter-of-factly (“this isn’t worth my 45 dollars”).
Also, you don’t have fuckin Buffalo Wild Wings where you live? It costs free dollars to watch it there and you don’t have to be 21.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
I’m ashamed to admit I don’t pay a dime for the fights, but I do drop a lot of money on everything else you listed.
by nottheface on Dec 20, 2009 2:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If only the UFC could find a way to profit from those things, we could start complaining about them..
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
What? You don’t use UFC brand bail bonds? Or snort Dana White’s Own brand cocaine?
by nottheface on Dec 20, 2009 3:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No
But I do use Tito’s Yellow Head Cab and go to Club Jenna, but I’m not sure those count.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Is the economy so bad that $45 is a lot of money now?
$45 wont :
Fill my truck with gas
Feed a family of 5 at Hardees
Pay for 4 people at the movies
Pay for a single date with a classy girl
Pay for a single hour with a questionable girl
Buy a single new title for PS3/Xbox360
But it will buy you 3 hours of good-great-incredible fights on a Saturday night.
I also got Showtime for Strikeforce fights, Thats an extra $10! I need to redo my list.
by Riney on Dec 20, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I find that getting Strikeforce (for me, mind you) is more expensive. I’m the only one of my friends with Showtime, but you can’t ask for money to cover the ten bucks (or for the months in between shows, where I never tune to the station for any reason).
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
My wife likes Dexter
so I played it off as a gift for her! Married life is great sometimes.
yeah, go watch dexter
so your 10 bucks won’t be that much of a waste
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, that's the kind of show you have to start from season 1...
but it’s not as hard as Lost and Flash Forward to jump in to.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Nurse Jackie?
or maybe their Pseudo-porn flicks? haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Try Weeds then. Or some of the late night Magic Hour T&A movies. A couple of those are very close to my heart.
Very close…
by nottheface on Dec 20, 2009 2:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i think the problem with this whole thing is that so many people have this burning desire to claim every org “the next ride” and tell everyone else how they are awesome and they are going to destroy the UFC.
Just watch the fights. If Strikeforce keeps up this momentum and starts getting significant fighters away from Zuffa over the next year, then we can talk. But after how quickly Bodog, WFA, IFL, EliteXC, HDnet fights, Affliction have gone from “next-Pride” to nonexistent, how does anyone have the energy to get this worked up about Strikeforce in the short amount of time since they’ve signed Fedor?
The thing with Strikeforce is that while there are growing pains, they seem to be doing the right things with who they have and who they can get. The Challengers Series build prospects like Woodley, Kennedy, Rockhold, etc. They have most of the good fighters that the UFC didn’t get (Zaromskis, Henderson, Mousasi, etc). I’m not saying that Strikeforce will even compete equally with the UFC because they won’t, but it does actually look like that Striekforce is here to stay. Looking at those other MMA orgs that you mentioned, it was clearly obvious what was wrong with them (not building up prospects, no tv deal, paying fighters too much, etc), but with Strikeforce, there are problems for sure, but there are no real indicators that they are going out of business anytime soon.
That’s fine, but the key point in your statement is “I’m not saying that strikeforce will even compete equally with the UFC because they won’t.”
you are not the people I am referring to because that sentence proves that you aren’t insane. they’re good, and there are key differences between them and those other orgs, but all those other orgs also had key diffrences from each other.
The “SF is going to kill the UFC” idea needs to be put on hold for a year. Let’s wait until they do something before we crown them.
The "SF is going to kill the UFC" idea needs to be put on hold for a year.
Is that a popular opinion? I haven’t really seen many people saying that type of thing. Why can’t it just be that SF stands on its own as a quality organization? Why does it always have to be a dick measuring contest?
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
The "SF is going to kill the UFC" idea needs to be put on hold for a year.
Is that a popular opinion? I haven’t really seen many people saying that type of thing. Why can’t it just be that SF stands on its own as a quality organization? Why does it always have to be a dick measuring contest?
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
The Zuffa (not just UFC fantards anymore) noise machine annoys me to no end. People are so deluded to actually want to pick “sides” for a fight promotion. You don’t see boxing fans saying how Goosen Tutor puts on better shows than Top Rank. There just seems to be this attitude that if you were in the the UFC in some capacity previously or if you haven’t fought in the UFC that you aren’t worth a shit as an MMA fighter.
It’s pretty obvious to me that Strikeforce is on the upswing and they were already a solid promotion before this year which Dana White himself spoke highly about. Why do the UFC fantards always have to shit on burgeoning organizations? They should want Strikeforce to succeed because it will push the UFC to stop putting on so many watered down PPVs all the time. If SF does well it will force the UFC to up their ante instead of this maligned over-hyped bullshit of 2009 where every fighter is “the toughest test of X’s career” or “this is the best version of X to ever step into the ring” only to see a one sided beat down that everyone knew wasn’t competitive in the first place.
If Jon Jones were in SF and Mo Lawal were in the UFC you’d see people saying Lawal is the next big thing and Jones is overrated because he fights in the minor leagues.
Strikeforce is good for the sport and the more they continue to grow the better product the UFC will be forced to put out. I’m just a consumer who likes MMA and watches all the shows for the fighters themselves. SF has delivered that to me this year for virtually nothing out of my pocket. Thats a good thing in my book.
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I enjoy Strikeforce as much as the next one
But the issue many have with is this:
He concedes my point that Strikeforce: Evolution and their January show are better cards than UFC 108 and 109 but raises some important counterpoints:
Strikeforce is enjoyable. However, to claim that the Evolution card is better than UFC 108 and 109 in terms of talent from top to bottom is not supportable. Jon Jones was a co-main event for a Fight Night card. He demolished a very good fighter in Hamill. Mo Lawal hasn’t beaten anyone near the calibur of Hamill or Bonnar. When has Jone Jones co main event a UFC PPV? Which side is on the extreme of hyperbole?
Lawal wasn’t a co-main event either. I’d say that Whitehead is on the same caliber of Hammil and Bonnar. Hammil, Bonnar and Whitehead are all mid level talent … in my opinion anyway. I think when Jones fights Brandon Vera it will be his first test against an opponent who is actually talented. I’m sure we’ll see Lawal with those type of fights in the not so distant future as well. It’s besides the point because what I’m saying is that if it’s not UFC it’s not shit. Thats the point I vehemently disagree with … I think SF has a strong foundation of talent and unlike EXC isn’t built upon gimmicks. Thats just my take but I think they are solid but because they are the closest thing that the UFC has to a competitor people with a pro Zuffa bias will shit all over them.
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe you could take the time to go over the aggregate rankings of all the fighters on the Evolution & January SF card and the fighters in UFC 108 & 109. Looking at the cards themselves I have a hard time agreeing with the point that UFC 108 is as good as SF Evolution and not knowing the fights on the SF January shows it’s hard to compare to 109 … but 109 is weaker than 108 in my opinion so I don’t think that statement is that far off. Looking at the card for UFC 109 all the PPV fights look pretty lopsided and the ones that don’t are irrelevant (Trigg vs Serra & Couture vs Coleman). I would have liked to see a 5th fight on the card last night (maybe manhoef vs lawler) but it was very entertaining and in my opinion more relevant to MMA than UFC 108.
Sell me on the reasons why 108 & 109 are leaps and bounds ahead of the two SF cards in terms of talent. I just don’t see it.
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Tell me which fighter on Strikeforce Evolution can beat these fighters from UFC 108 in their respective weight classes:
Evans, Silva, Jr Dos Santos, Yvel, Kampman. Can Scott Smith defeat Kampfman? Can Mo Lawal defeat Evans or Thiago Silva at LHW or Dos Santos at heavyweight? Now compare the preliminary fight cards VS UFC 108.
Now compare UFC 109. Do you believe that Marius can beat Koscheck or Paulo Thiago? Can anyone on the January Strikeforce roster beat Demian Maia or Nate Marquardt? Do you think Bobby Lashley could beat Nate even with the weight difference? Now compare the preliminary fight card between the two.
If you don’t see the difference in talent, then there’s really nothing more I can say.
Can Scott Smith defeat Kampfman?
I’d personally think he has a decent chance of that if Kampmann tries to stand with him. Martin’s striking game is grossly overrated. That being said, if he could get it to the ground it’d be Kampmann’s fight to lose.
Comparing a prospect in Lawal to the main eventers of 108 is a bit unfair.
As for Maia? I’d say Jacare would take him out, but I guess based on the qualifier that it would have to be someone on the January card…um…I’ll throw out Diaz even though he’s not really a pure 185’er.
This isn’t to say that I am anti either promotion. I just like fights.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at the cards themselves I have a hard time agreeing with the point that UFC 108 is as good as SF Evolution
If you really think this, get thee to Sherdog. Although the level of commentary there may be too complex for you.
UFC 108 has about 4 or 5 top-10 fighters in their weight classes, as well as another 3 or so top 20 fighters.
The entire Strikeforce card had about 5 top 20 fighters, and no top-10 fighters.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 20, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve got no dog in this fight, but this:
If Jon Jones were in SF and Mo Lawal were in the UFC you’d see people saying Lawal is the next big thing and Jones is overrated because he fights in the minor leagues.
is almost certainly true
by JRN on Dec 20, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not even close
Mo looked awesome in his fight with Whitehead, but he just came off fighting Mark Kerr.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Sure, but he if he signed with the UFC after that fight and then fought and decisively beat someone of Whitehead’s caliber (say… Eddie Sanchez, or something), you really don’t think you’d see a lot more people on the bandwagon?
(Aside: I hate the very existence of that Kerr fight, but we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that Mo also stepped up to face 54-11 veteran heavyweight Travis Wiuff in his debut and stopped him in the first round.)
Mo Lawal is good prospect. No one is even questioning that so this line of argument is a misdirection. The problem with this is that people are using Mo Lawal beating Mike Whitehead as some sort of barometer that proves Strikeforce is better than UFC 108.
Mo is a hot prospect and so is Jon Jones. But no one is using Jon Jones to prove that the UFC has a better fight card.
Within 6 months of his first pro fight Jon Jones was fighting Andre Gusmao, 3 months later he was fighting Stephan Bonnar. The toughest guy Mo has ever fought was actually in his very first fight, a year later he was fighting Mark fucking Kerr. Jones has proven himself by beating guys at the highest level, there’s a reason he’s being hyped. King Mo has potential but he isn’t fighting the level of competition Jones is. The statement you’re referring to is assuming that Mo would be beating guys the way Jones is if Mo were in the UFC, I’m not so sure that’s the case.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To add.....Strikeforce is good for the sake of the fighters as well
I honestly don’t know if we’ll see more fighters jumping ship like Dan Henderson, but one cannot ignore the strongarm tactics that the UFC employs such as banning certain sponsors. There is an underlying issue of respect, and I can guess (and only guess, so don’t quote me as fact) that a situation like Henderson’s involved him not being thrilled with the UFC banning Clinch Gear, and Henderson just saying “F.U.” and going to Strikeforce that will allow him to have Clinch Gear as a sponsor. Fighters need that alternative, and I honestly believe that will threaten the UFC in how they deal with fighters in the future. When the UFC is the only game in town, the players (fighters) more or less have to abide to the UFCs rules.
I don’t get why people are upset about this.
This is how the real world work. The NFL bans sponsors from NFL events. So does every other company in the universe. We just hear about it more in the UFC because people need to spark outrage.
In the real world, everyone has to play by someone else’s rules. The UFC’s “lack of respect” and “rules” are part of what has made them successful while everyone else has failed.
by Phildo on Dec 21, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is simply because the UFC isn’t at the level of an NFL, NBA, etc. No one is angry over NFL players because we know that they make A LOT of money even to the lower level players. The other thing that makes it an outrage is that some of these things are fixable especially since the sport is so young and going through growing pains. As fans, we see something wrong and want to speak about it, whether it is banning sponsors, judging, or refereeing. Should we not say anything about judging or refereeing because “this is how the real world works?”
by chrisbboy82 on Dec 21, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
The judging and reffing should be done correctly.
I company protecting it’s interests by banning sponsors is not something that people should complain about.
it’s not like they say you can’t have anything to do with that sponsor, it’s just that you can’t have it in the cage, just like nfl players can’t wear certain things, people that do taxes for HR Block can’t go work for another tax company the next year, and so on.
Banning sponsors is what the UFC does to protect themselves. Everyone knows that going in, getting upset over it is a waste of energy.
by Phildo on Dec 21, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I see what you mean, and the banning of sponsors, while I understand something like not having a Condom Depot tag on a fighter’s shorts, I really just used the banning of sponsors as one example of strongarm tactics employed by the UFC. I really wanted to discuss more on how having a stable alternative like Strikeforce gives fighters other avenues to fight for a living, and how having a competing organization causes the UFC to react whether it be signing prospects faster, or something more towards the business side of things. I have to ask though, what would banning a sponsor like Clinch Gear protect themselves (the UFC) from exactly?
they could do it to protect their other sponsors.
Why did the NFL fine Urlacher for wearing a vitamin water hat?
by Phildo on Dec 21, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But it’s the same thing, sports leagues sign deals with certain sponsors and ban other one’s for a variety of reasons. I don’t get why people hold the UFC to a different standard.
by Phildo on Dec 21, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To try to attempt to answer “why do people hold the UFC to a different standard,” the best answer that I can give you is that since the UFC is an individual sport and not a team sport, the livelihood of these fighters are more at stake. With the money that players in the NFL get, everyone is getting a good chunk of the pie, whereas some UFC fighters are surviving/making their paychecks from fight to fight. Granted, it is not anyone’s personal problems but their own (the fighters), however, we (the fans) make emotional investments to these fighters and want to see them do well in and outside of the cage. The other thing is that this sport of MMA is still growing, so there seems to be this idea that things can still change and not be set in their ways unlike the NFL, NBA, etc.
nothing personal nate
but i think this is way off…….. gil v.s. thompson was NOT better than diego vs bj and the quality of production last night was so crappy I can’t even believe people are comparing it to the ufc. also, how can you say this card is better than 108 & 109, THEY HAVEN’T EVEN HAPPENED! on top of everything, shamrock saying, “oh, cung’s kicks don’t even hurt” was completely dumbfounding..
by cagefightonacid on Dec 20, 2009 3:50 PM EST reply actions
gil v.s. thompson was NOT better than diego vs bj
If your personal cup of tea is one guy getting beaten up for four-and-a-half and rounds, then sure!
by JRN on Dec 20, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
bj and gil are my favorite fighters, i would much rather see one of them dominate and finish someone then a very close decision. the air about the penn fight was much more exciting to me along with all if the implications and penn’s legacy that is being built. obviously it’s opinion but hopefully this will explain my POV
by cagefightonacid on Dec 20, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
That does explain it. But it seems weird to say that calling Melendez/Thimson the better fight is “way off” when your opinion is based mainly on fandom (nothing wrong with that, btw). Most folks are going to enjoy a high-paced back-and-forth battle over a one-sided drubbing.
i loved it!
i was more referring to the quality of the show compared to the ufc as a whole
by cagefightonacid on Dec 20, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Thomson vs Melendez was a much better fight than Penn vs Sanchez because it was actually competitive and matched two even fighters instead of one overhyped reality TV star and a legend. This is coming from the biggest BJ Penn fan in the world who watched the fight 5 times just to see the mastery of Penn.
by Johnnynumber5 on Dec 20, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Come on man
BJ would tool on Gil or Thompson the same way he did Diego. Don’t call Diego a reality TV star, that’s borderline fighter bashing a totally legitimate top ten lightweight.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Gil/Thompson was undoubtedly the better fight, but not in a way that is worth comparing to BJ/Diego. Both were enjoyable to watch and the comparison is unusual. It seems to suggest the UFC had a boring main event.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
right
i hate saying, fight A was better than fight B, but TO ME, calling a dominating performance by the best LW ever a worse fight than a close war between two top 20 guys is silly to me. are andersons fights worse than the wars that scott smith has because he dominates people?
by cagefightonacid on Dec 20, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just sick of fanboy rubbish no matter what the subject matter. PS3 or 360, PC or Mac, UFC or Strikeforce, it all means precisely jack shit to me. Why does it have to be “or”? Why can’t it be “and”?
I look forward to some Strikeforce events as much as some UFC events, and I often find that some of the cards which don’t have the star power which would cause most people to call them “good” cards are often better than the ones which do. For UFC 105 and 106, the big name main event was the weakest fight on the card, as it turned out.
by brad23 on Dec 20, 2009 8:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
PS3 and 360 are on a level playing field. Mac and PC are on a level playing field. UFC and Strikeforce are NOT on a level playing field so I don’t see why they are getting compared to products that are equal to each other.
The UFC is 10x the Product/Promotion that Strikeforce is at the moment. WEC is a better product then Strikeforce as the WEC shows the best of it’s weight classes and have had some amazing cards this year. I can’t believe people actually think Strikeforce is anywhere near to competing with the UFC.
"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"
by Lay 'n' Pray on Dec 21, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly..
I don’t know why its so hard to enjoy great fights and not get caught up in this whole if they are not held under my promotion they are BS. WEC and Strikeforce had wonderful fights on Saturday, as MMA fans, we should be rejoicing at the quality and amount of MMA we were treated to on Saturday night.
This past Strikeforce on paper is not as good or even close to as good as UFC 108 is, that is a complete joke of a statement.
Smith Vs Le is a terrible fight, yes it turned out exciting for about 10 seconds when Smith who is a terrible fighter came back.
Melendez Vs Thompson is a very good fight but neither guy is top 10 yet.
Souza Vs Lindland is good, but c’mon Lindland is washed up and hasnt looked good in yrs.
Evans Vs Silva is worth more then all those fights.
Dos Santos Vs Yvel is very interesting, Yvel is hot as hell and dos Santos is fast rising.
Sherk is out but Miller and sherk is a beter fight then Thompson Vs Melendez.
Daley Vs Hazlett is very good
Lauzon Vs Stout is solid.
And the undercad is light yrs ahead of strikeforces offering this weekend.
That being said Im looking forward to there next show that card is shaping up nicely.
Mo Vs Whitehead is ok, Whitehead is a B level fighter.
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