MMA Overdose: Post-Fight Thoughts on Strikeforce: Evolution and WEC 45
by Kid Nate on Dec 20, 2009 12:53 AM EST
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Damn what a night for an mma addict. Frankly it was total sensory overload. Both WEC and Strikeforce put on great cards but clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC.*
Quick thoughts:
- Strikeforce is putting on big time cards. Tonight's card and the January card are both stacked with intrigue for the serious and the casual MMA fan and compare quite favorably to UFC 108 and 109.
- Gilbert Melendez vs Josh Thomson 2 was a great great fight and sets up a rubber match to decide which of these Northern California lightweights is truly the better man.
- But first let's hope Shinya Aoki gets to come to the U.S. and try his luck against Melendez.
- Scott Smith's last minute knock out of Cung Le has cost Strikeforce another headline fighter. They've already lost Frank Shamrock and Gina Carano as credible headliners, now they'll have a much harder time selling Le as a top of the bill fighter.
- Matt Lindland might be done as a top level fighter. He's 39 and coming off back-to-back finish losses to Jacare and Vitor Belfort. Getting choked out might not do the same kind of damage that getting KTFO'd does, but it can't be good.
- Jacare Souza should immediately be in consideration for a title shot against the winner of Dan Henderson vs Jake Shields. If not, a rematch with Jason "Mayhem" Miller in DREAM or Strikeforce would be fun, let's settle that score.
- King Mo is looking damn good and will be ready to headline cards for Strikeforce in the not very distant future. But how long can he fight for Strikeforce before they have to throw him in with Gegard Mousasi?
- Chris Horodecki made a rookie mistake that cost him the fight against Anthony Njokuani by turning his back and walking away. Horodecki has a long way to go to regain the career momentum he built up in the IFL and this loss in his WEC debut won't help. He's very very young so there's plenty of upside left.
- Njokuani is very impressive and is ready to test himself against the top tier of contenders in the WEC lightweight division.
- Donald Cerrone completely outclassed Ed Ratcliff but nearly cost himself the fight with sloppy cheapshots.
- WEC should stick to Sunday nights. Sensory overload is fun and all but I'd rather be able to watch all the fights live.
* To clarify since this "another league" comment has been taken all out of proportion, what I mean is that Strikeforce is delivering sport and spectacle at all weight classes and the WEC is sticking to delivering great fights at the lower weight classes. Strikeforce is filling the spot once filled by Affliction AND EliteXC and with their putative alliance with DREAM, relationship with CBS/Showtime and EA Games is potentially positioned as a long term competitor to the UFC. A Pepsi to the UFC's very clear Coke.
But don't let the UFC shills fool you, there is no difference between promoting Kimbo Slice and promoting Cung Le and Hershel Walker. A spectacle is a spectacle no matter which carnie is selling it to you.
But it's not just Cung Le that made last night's show special, it was the incredible lightweight title fight between Josh Thomson and Gilbert Melendez, and the emergence of Jacare and King Mo as high profile fighters in the US. Those guys matter and will be UFC-caliber fighters soon if they are not already. Could anyone on the Strikeforce roster compete with the champs in the UFC? Yeah, Fedor and Mousasi right now. Are there others? Time will tell.
Photo by Dave Mandel via Sherdog.com
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Honestly, the WEC always ends up better than any other promotion I watch.
Great night of fights however, KO’s, submissions, wars, mistakes and one hell of a comeback.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Dec 20, 2009 12:57 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Sensory overload is a very apt description. It was a pain flipping back and forth a million times, but luckily the overlap wasn’t as bad as I expected. Gil/Punk easily makes my top 10 fights of the year.
The one thing I noticed other than the awesome night of fights was how much better Showtime paces their show as opposed to Versus. I know the commercials are a big part of that, but it seems like the long gaps between fights kills the momentum a bit.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
Mauro Ranallo absolutely ruins Strikeforce for me. I can’t tune him out and he’s aggressively awful.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 21, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
i dont think Strikeforce put on that good of a show. Melendez vs. Thomson was sloppy. The main event was a joke. i enjoyed watching WEC, good fights. As always the production sucked for Strikeforce
You didn’t enjoy Melendez-Thompson? What’s wrong with you?
by IRodC on Dec 20, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I really didn’t enjoy any of the fights they put on on Saturday.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 21, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wow!
You must be president of the Zuffa fan club.
by ultimoshogun on Dec 20, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
listen Mr. Hieron
just because they’re giving Zaromskis the title shot before you doesn’t mean you have to get so mad. :)
by rkilla on Dec 20, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Don't feed the troll.
Laughable to call Melendez vs Thomson sloppy.
AWmusic - mp3 blog.
http://twitter.com/awmusicblog
Sloppy
if you’re nitpicking though. For the most part it was very pretty technical except near the end of the rounds. To me that signifies that Thomson knew he was losing a round and attempted to win them. He did get “sloppy” at round 5 but what else is a guy to do when he’s losing?
It wasn’t so much sloppy as it was calculated risk in my opinion.
AWmusic - mp3 blog.
http://twitter.com/awmusicblog
There were parts in earlier rounds where both guys just stood there and threw wide-open winging hooks at each other. Those are the parts I’m referring too.
This is the end of the 2nd round
I believe Thomson knew he had the round lost and was trying to win it. At that point the numbers were close but Gil had a knockdown. By that knowledge I don’t think it was too sloppy. Gil on the other hand was great from start to finish.
AWmusic - mp3 blog.
http://twitter.com/awmusicblog
I don't understand why almost every 5 round fight is a FOTY candidate
Melendez vs. Thomson was a great fight, don’t get me wrong. I thought it was easily the best fight on the card in several aspects, but it seems to me that every close 5 round fight is automatically named a FOTY candidate. I didn’t think this was even top 10 on the year!
I don’t see how Strikeforce could have topped the WEC card, the WEC card was absolutely wild.
Somebody has to carry the flag for the non-Zuffa block.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
I didn’t get to watch either event until this morning because I was gone all weekend. Let’s just say I’m happy I watched the WEC second.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 21, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure how you can say that Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC. WEC puts on great cards every time. Strikeforce card’s are spotty at best and full of mid level talent where the WEC has the top guys for the weight classes they showcase. Nothing against Strikeforce, they do have some top guys, but besides that handful most guys are fighters who can’t cut it in the UFC.
by Sliup on Dec 20, 2009 1:08 AM EST reply actions 14 recs
It’s Kid Nate being a fanboy.
WEC has more than 3 times as many top 10 fighters… Nate is just mesmerized by Cung Le vs Scott Smith and he believes whatever the announcers say.
Very few fights in strikeforce has any significance in the sport.
The WEC promotes divisions with no direct competition in North America. It’s an apples and oranges comparison. Nice try though.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
what does that have to do with it?
A promotion that has most of the top 10 competing with each other versus a promotion that has b-level talent competing with each other?
What’s more relevant to the sport? here’s a hint: minor league baseball versus major league.
You sound upset.
Rankings don’t mean that much, but even if they were as crucially important as you want to portray them as in this scenario, Strikeforce has plenty of top-rated fighters, and more are joining every week it seems.
Judging by the fan reaction tonight, your baseball comparison is completely backwards. WEC delivers good fights every time, but they are like Sengoku; solid if not spectacular. Strikeforce is clearly on another level, their big Showtime and CBS cards are closer in magnitude to a UFC PPV than any second tier televised MMA product like WEC.
Best fighters in the world = WEC wins.
Better paying TV deal = WEC wins.
Where Closet Pro-Wrestling fans go to jerk off = Strikeforce wins.
Their shows are entertaining but they have no relevance as they cant even make the fights we want to see with fighters they already have under contract. They protect their fighters (which cung basically admitted) and try to engineer second rate fighters into something they are not.
Showtime and a show every five to six months on CBS cant solve that problem. Comparing their magnitude to the UFC is like comparing XFL’s magnitude to the NFL.
It’s nothing more than pro-wrestling disguised as MMA (which Frank shamrock admitted).
Where Closet Pro-Wrestling fans go to jerk off = Strikeforce wins.
Um, which promotion has a Vince McMahon wannabe as their figurehead and a WWE champ as their top draw again? Strikeforce is refreshingly kayfabe-free by comparison.
by smoogy2 on Dec 20, 2009 2:48 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The only thing that was on par with a UFC were the affliction shows.
Scott Smith vs Cung Le is not in the same universe. Nick Diaz vs Zarimskis is not in the same universe. Maybe a UFC fight night.
LOL
Yeah, they really can’t touch massive PPV headliners like Evans vs. Silva, or Couture vs. Coleman, or Bisping vs. Silva. Whatever you are smoking, I want some.
Strikeforce just pulled off a great double main event, and will do the same next month. The undercard always has great action between elite fighters and top prospects. As a non-PPV product, I can see why Strikeforce puts you on such high alert. The value they’re offering to MMA consumers is so good that it has real potential to fuck with UFC’s mindshare. Why pay 50 bucks a month when the other guy is offering a comparable product most of the time for less than half that?
Maybe UFC can do a big ad campaign about how they have the greater overall quanity of top 50 ranked fighters according to MMABoathouse.net? OMG STRIKEFORCE BARELY HAS 35% OF THE BEST MIDDLEWEIGHTS! NOT RELEVANT!
by smoogy2 on Dec 20, 2009 2:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why pay 50 bucks a month when the other guy is offering a comparable product most of the time for less than half that?
Because nobody knows it’s happening and even if they did they don’t care about the guys who are fighting. Sorry but that’s the truth and it’s not gonna change any time soon.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Why apologize
what you said is the truth. The only reason it hits so close to home is because the UFC has recently had a poor main event (106) and a shitty card (108). In comparison anything is going to look good against paying $50 for those.
I think people should reserve comment on 108
I think that if it is a great night of fights it doesnt matter if the “names” are not there.
Hell look at tonight I was more impressed with the non-names (Mo and Jacare) then I was with the “names” Le/Smith, even though Le/Smith was an exciting fight.
Just because Stout/Lauzon or Daley/Hazelett dont have the “names” to make you want to buy a card doesnt mean that they might not put on FOTY canidates.
It might suck but I think the people that dont even want to watch (not buy but watch) because Lauzon and Hazelett are not big enough “names” for them are fools.
I can’t wait to watch JDS and Yvel, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that this card has very little to make one feel compelled to drop $50 for it.
It will matter...
when it does about 200k in buys.
I mean, yeah…I’ll be happy to watch it as an MMA fan…but 108 is not going to sell for shit
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
That will be their problem… The fact that it COSTS half.
The same and even more relevant fights can be found on spike and versus for FREE and will only increase…
Mindshare of what? the 2 people who watch on showtime? or the CBS show they have every 5-6 months where the majority of the people think they’re watching UFC?
If CBS was putting on a show every month and willing to invest 6 million per show then I would blink.
Yeah, keep moving the goalposts, you’re good at that.
Strikeforce is putting their absolute best cards on CBS, a platform UFC only wishes they had access to at the moment. Even you would be hard-pressed to argue UFNs and second rate UK cards on cable are “more relevant”, not that I doubt you’ll try.
Which promotion offers the best bang for your MMA buck is up to debate, but clearly Strikeforce is now in the conversation in a serious way. For a show that isn’t “relevant”, they sure seem to have gotten the attention of MMA fans.
Strikeforce is putting their absolute best cards on CBS, a platform UFC only wishes they had access to at the moment.
How do you figure that? If the UFC wanted to be on network TV they would be, there is a reason they haven’t signed that deal yet. Their crappy card that nobody wants to pay $50 for next month is gonna make them ten times what Strikeforce’s “great” card made them tonight.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
I wasn’t commenting on the specifics of a CBS contract (mainly because I don’t know them), just the actual CBS platform. I’m sure the UFC brass wishes they had a show on network TV; never mind the logistics.
You can’t say never mind the logistics when that is the only reason that they aren’t on network TV. The UFC would never agree to the same deal that SF did and there are very good reason for that.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 3:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
their Kimbo show on Spike...
reached almost the same number of fans CBS’s Fedor show did…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
And when EXC was putting on Kimbo shows logic was shitting on them for promoting him. smoogy is very right that the goalposts do tend to move
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Small nitpick, but Kimbo was headlining EliteXC.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Dec 20, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
and this is the major difference...
elitexc had CBS too, so those spike numbers he threw now makes it even more impressive…
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 21, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Let’s see get into reality and away from “mma land” to see how much strikeforce is fucking with UFC’s mindshare:
Click here to see how much Strikeforce is fucking with UFC’s mindshare
It’s hilarious how the same people who deride tuf and the UFC are orgasming over a show filled with tuf and ufc rejects. How this is even a comparison to a UFC show is beyond me.
Scott Smith… yep, a tuf reject was not only the main event but also just beat Strikeforce’s MW champ. That’s some real “magnitude” right there. UFC and its ppv’s got nothin on this.
A UFC prelim (unaired) is more relevant than any strikeforce fight.
by mmalogic on Dec 20, 2009 9:21 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read:
A UFC prelim (unaired) is more relevant than any strikeforce fight.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it is kind of silly, but you have to admit that Scott Smith went from the UFC undercard to headlining Strikeforce cards. Ditto for Nick Diaz.
That isn’t the point. But it should be realized that fighters do improve. Diaz’s younger (and much less talented) brother has headlined UFC events. Nick certainly would be at the top end of UFC cards.
But the point was that a UFC prelim is more relevant than ANY Strikeforce fight. Is a fight involving Diaz, Fedor, Mousasi, Shields, Miller, Jacare, Thomson, Melendez, Overeem, Werdum, Monson, Henderson, Babalu, Lawler, Zaromskis or any of the other ranked fighters on the strikeforce roster LESS relevant than something like Mark Munoz vs. Ryan Jensen or John Gunderson vs. Rafaello Oliveira?
If anyone actually believes that then they are fight-retarded
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mark Munoz would be a main eventer on a strikeforce challenger card easily. If Tyron Woodley did there’s no reason he couldn’t
Also way to pick a fighter where one fighter is a late replacement for an injured guy. Sherk v Oliveira would be a main card if not main event fight in Strikeforce. Also if that fight was in strikeforce they would of scrapped it instead of finding a replacement for Sherk. I think its lame sauce to blame the UFC for matchups that have changed due to a massive amount of injuries.
by Buddha Brown on Dec 20, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not blaming them. All I’m saying is that it was dumb of logic to say that any unaired UFC undercard bout is more relevant than any strikeforce fight.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll agree that is pretty dumb, but it wasn’t even the dumbest thing in this thread.
Both WEC and Strikeforce put on great cards but clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC
Strikeforce is tons of fun and puts on entertaining fights, but to claim they are in ‘another league’ than the WEC is laughable.
I love both organizations, but WEC delivers great entertainment value and cards stacked with world class fighters. Strikeforce also delivers great entertainment but rarely has more than one or two fights featuring world class fighters facing off. In last nights show, Thompson-Melendez compared favorably with anything in the WEC or UFC, but the rest of the card was just purely for entertainment.
by Steve4192 on Dec 20, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Those cards weren’t made to have those headliners, you can’t blame Zuffa or the UFC for fighter having to pull out due injuries, though you will because for whatever reason you are one of those trolls who never got over PrideFC collapsing.
I don’t see why you people feel like you need to pick sides, if you like the sport, you should like the fact that you get multiple events from multiple organizations.
by Buddha Brown on Dec 20, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
No, the point is that there’s no reason to make the comparison in the first place. If you want to discredit Strikeforce, there are plenty of other ways to attempt it. Fighter rankings in comparison to the WEC? Weak.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
No
It’s simple. WEC has more top talent than Strikeforce. End of story.
by MMAWrestling on Dec 20, 2009 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
Because it promotes divisions with no competition. Strikeforce’s business model is fundamentally different than the WEC’s. If you want to say that the UFC has more talent, it’s a valid comparison.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
The competition is in Japan. However, there really is no competition as almost all of the best fighters in 135/145 are in the same promotion fighting each other, and putting on great fights.
by MMAWrestling on Dec 20, 2009 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with that. I’m saying that using that fact to knock down Strikeforce’s roster makes no sense, because they’re not in competition with each other in terms of fighters and divisions. A UFC/Strikeforce comparison makes sense. A WEC/Strikeforce one does not.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
The comparison makes sense and is relevant when a fan boy is deluded enough to say “clearly strikeforce is in another league than the wec”
Apparently Kid Nate likes his fighters protected and dancing for him as he’s a closet pro-wrestling fan trying to get his fix with MMA.
Why do you say there’s no reason to compare WEC and SF yet when Nate clearly does it here you back off and say you weren’t referring to his article?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Back off? I was referring to both cards being quality tonight, and both promotions being good. People here are saying one is/was better than the other. I was saying we should just be happy that we got 2 good cards tonight.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
People here are saying one is/was better than the other
You mean like this:
clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC
?
But you said:
I wasn’t referring to your article per se, it was more in reference to the comments here
That’s backing off.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
You can go ahead and think whatever you want, but I wasn’t referring to one line in a post that is just talking about the nights events. I was talking about the comments. AGAIN, this wasn’t about Nate. It was about other posters. You’re all focusing on Nate’s line, I was not.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
Strikeforce card’s are spotty at best
Did you think this card was “spotty at best”? First round KO, first round submision, back-and-forth five-round war, crazy come-from-behind KO victory… dang, that practically sounds like a WEC show!
the WEC has the top guys for the weight classes they showcase
…except lightweight.
Nothing against Strikeforce, they do have some top guys, but besides that handful most guys are fighters who can’t cut it in the UFC.
Do you mean that most SF fighters couldn’t cut it if they were in the UFC, or that most SF fighters are former UFC fighters that couldn’t hack it while they were there?
Nah.
WEC has more decisions (on average) than Strikeforce. Small guys don’t hit hard enough to KO often, and they all seem to have epic cardio.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I know. All I’m saying is: tonight’s WEC main card had 3 finishes and one decision in a good fight, and so did Strikeforce. So it seems weird to say SF is “spotty at best” in contrast with the WEC.
Ah, alright.
For the record, I enjoyed both thoroughly. I watched WEC live since I thought it would be faster paced action and require more focused attention that I couldn’t offer as the night went on. DVR’d Strikeforce, and the whole time was wrapped up as if it were live. Turns out that both were pretty effing great. I was screaming every profane exclamation I know and making up a few new ones when Smith dropped Le. I laughed and cried a little watching Njokuani (one of my favorite LWs) ignoring the reset period and knocking Horodecki’s head off. I won’t compare the two shows, I’d hate to cheapen my experience of either. It was a good night of MMA, and I’m glad we all got to experience it. Except DirectTV subscribers.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
The last few WEC prelims has been decisionfests
FIRE JIM MORA NOW!
by SSreporters on Dec 20, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
"Both WEC and Strikeforce put on great cards but clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC."
Yes, the WEC puts on exciting fights with guys in the Top League of their weight class.
Strikforce put on exciting fights with guys in a Mid-Tier League.
I got it Nate.
by SidHartman on Dec 20, 2009 1:18 AM EST reply actions 11 recs
Not Zuffa = +3000 points
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
by Ubernoober on Dec 20, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
completely disagree
WEC fight cards are always the most exciting with the relentless nonstop pace of their fights and the top tier fighters in their bantam weight and featherwreight divisions and while their lightweight division is second class its full of extremely entertaining fighters ive never once been bored watchin Donald Cerrone, Ben Henderson, or Jamie Varner fight
Strikeforce also put on a good show but i just dont think the bigger fighters create as exciting fights as the little guys do sure they had some bigger names with king mo and cung le but these guys arent the best in their division and dont make name value as much as a factor as a fedor, mousasi, hendo or top UFC card would in comparision to a WEC fight
since when is a card headlined by scott smith a big time card
by yngjzy on Dec 20, 2009 1:22 AM EST reply actions 10 recs
I thought it was pretty obvious well before tonight that WEC and SF aren’t in the same league, I mean look at their payrolls. SF is trying to compete with the UFC, not the WEC.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
they arent in the same league the WEC put on the far better show
by milk72 on Dec 20, 2009 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why all the back and forth about one show being so much better than the other? Why can’t we just be happy that both cards were really good and both promotions were very well-represented tonight?
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
because I don't want to see them go head to head anymore
my mma fun is greater if i can see all the fights
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I wasn’t referring to your article per se, it was more in reference to the comments here. I agree that I like getting to concentrate on one event at a time. I just don’t get why people are disparaging one show/promotion or the other. Both were great cards.
"My diet is like Atkins, but with the carbs." - BJ Penn
Strikeforce should go for Friday nights then.
Friday: Strikeforce
Saturday: UFC
Sunday: WEC
That would be a hell of a weekend!
Guillotine.
if that happens,
it would be:
Sunday: WEC
Saturday: UFC (number)
Friday: Strikeforce and UFC (number – 1)
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 20, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Both WEC and Strikeforce put on great cards but clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC.
WEC has 7 of the top 10 FWs and 9 of the top 10 BWs. I guess they are in different leagues.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
by Ubernoober on Dec 20, 2009 1:42 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Fedor>16 of top 20 145 and under
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 1:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
I am totally baffled by that quote about Strikeforce being in another league than the WEC. The WEC has put on some of the best shows from top to bottom in the past year. With several fight of the year candidates included in those shows.
Just BE.
UFC doesn't allow head stomps, soccer kicks, knees to grounded opponent.
Yeah it’s the amateur league.
by ultimoshogun on Dec 20, 2009 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
Strikeforce doesnt allow head stomps, soccer kicks, and knees to grounded opponnet
AND ELBOWS.
Go look up what the Unified rules are… it defines what MMA is.
by mmalogic on Dec 20, 2009 2:45 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I agree not allowing elbows to opponents on the ground is bullshit
but what you are saying is just as wrong. So when Wanderlie fought in Pride it wasn’t mma? It was the minor leagues, because of a slight difference in the rules? Is that mean the American League is amateurs compared to the National League because there is a difference in rules between the two?
I'm aware of the unified rules.....
Compared to PRIDE, UFC is amateur league.
by ultimoshogun on Dec 20, 2009 2:56 AM EST up reply actions
so why exactly is Zuffa not bringing the fws and bws to the UFC? must be the big ratings and all the stacks of greenbacks….
The transition has already begun… just let comcast see what the UFC brand can produce in comparison and then when the spike tv deal gets renegotiated in 2011 the transition will be complete.
I hope so...
Why let the WEC twist in the wind….there is money to be made and a bigger audience for these fighters. Show them the $$ for their efforts. The bonuses are a joke right now.
Jacare is a for real.
Probably should fight miller again.
by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 20, 2009 1:48 AM EST reply actions
If Jacare is for real why does he need to waste his time fighting Mayhem?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously! He totally outclassed him the first time, so what’s the point? On to bigger and better things, I say.
Scott Smith’s last minute knock out of Cung Le has cost Strikeforce another headline fighter. They’ve already lost Frank Shamrock and Gina Carano as credible headliners, now they’ll have a much harder time selling Le as a top of the bill fighter.
Frank, Gina and Cung were never very credible to begin with.
but they were able to sell fights with them because they didn’t have big losses that every knew about.
Especially the way the 3 losses were done. Le kicking the shit out of Shamrock, Cyborg demolishing Carano, and Scott Smith’s defense strategy of “please don’t grab my arm or take my back, but I’m not really going to try and get you off of me” working to allow him to beat Le.
They may not have been credible in reality, but they were perceived as real, and they did a good job filling arenas.
Yeah that’s what I mean. EliteXC proved that you can’t be successful building a business based off of non-credible fighters. The first time they go up against an actual fighter, they lose.
by George Lucas on Dec 20, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Kinda difficlut to market someone who only fights once a year as credible.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 20, 2009 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
Gina’s credibility was based around fighting in a weightclass made specifically for her in which she routinely missed weight and outsized what little competition there was for her, all while her promoters proclaimed her the best female fighter despite the fact that most women (including better fighters than Gina) fight at a lower weight class. Then Gina loses to the first fighter who actually fits in her weight class.
Similarly, Scott Smith was the first actual middleweight opponent that Cung Le has ever faced at middleweight who’s name isn’t Frank Shamrock.
by George Lucas on Dec 20, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Cung Le is elite level striker. You can say what you want about his ground game, but he demolished Scott Smith for a good 3 rounds in the stand up. His striking is leagues ahead of most MMA fighters not named Anderson Silva. He got caught in fight he was handily winning. Cung Le’s obviously gassed in the third, which is his fault for not taking training seriously. But to say he was never credible? Take your fanboy glasses off.
Well, Le must have been asleep during this fight, because Smith has no defense whatsoever, and elite level striker would finish him inside 2 minutes…
by dancingChicken on Dec 20, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His striking game is based entirely around low-percentage kicks that look nice but never KO anyone and would get him absolutely murdered if he ever fought anyone who attempted to fight him at a range closer than 3 feet. (like Scott Smith)
It looks flashy but it’s apparently only effective against old men and welterweights who don’t try to take him down, clinch or box with him. His striking game is not made for MMA, and the fact that he’s even gotten this far in the sport is a testament to how well Strikeforce has been able to cherry pick his competition.
by George Lucas on Dec 20, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
ON EVERYTHING YOU PONITED OUT
Well Said Dude.
The WEC card was amazing!
But Strikeforce is the new Affliction. They are setting up great fights everyone wants to see in America.
The No Elbows rule is a bummer though
everyone wants to see in America?
really? I enjoyed the SF card for what it was, but do you really think it’s drawing fans like that? I think we have to stop hyping up these other promotions to standards they won’t be able to live up to.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Dec 20, 2009 3:29 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Think about PRIDE and DREAM
Those two organizations set up some great fucking fights people want to see
but live broadcasts of those fights were and are shown at 4 am Pacific time.
American fans dont really get exposed to fights of that caliber
and sure the super hulk tournament is more of a freak show then a legit fight tournament
but fight and fighters like Diaz Vs Gomez, All the fights Fedor had, CroCop, the Nogerias, Sakuraba, Marius Z arent exposed to the General American audience.
Its not about hyping it up. Its about finding legit fights that will make the sport grow.
I think we have to stop hyping up these other promotions to standards they won’t be able to live up to.
This quote by Loot above hit me and made me realize something. I don’t hate Strikeforce and I really hope they succeed. However having said that I keep finding myself hating on Strikeforce every time someone over hypes them as something more than they are. I keep finding myself hating on Strikeforce because so many people want to say Strikeforce is this or that when in reality they aren’t those things.
Just BE.
The only thing is that there are also MMA fans that will just predict the end of Strikeforce right now. I have to wonder that if this Strikeforce card was on before Strikeforce signed Fedor and when MMA fans just totally loved Strikeforce, that if these same fans woluldn’t disparage Strikeforce. Honestly, ask yourself how Strikeforce (not the fans that toot it’s horn) wronged you? In all honesty, all Strikeforce has been trying to do these days is provide the best fights that their roster allows. Some fans see that and like Strikeforce, and others will discredit Strikeforce by calling its fights irrelevant or whatnot.
by chrisbboy82 on Dec 20, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good night of fights overall.
My only complaint is why oh why doesn’t SF ever show any prelim fights. It’s kind of crazy if you have 2 shows at the same time and the one with commercials can fit in more fights than the one without.
by Phildo on Dec 20, 2009 2:34 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
4 Showtime Strikeforce shows 0 prelim fights WTF?
I know they had the Coenen fight on reserve for CBS in case the fights went fast but they didnt get to show it.
In this case we had 1 fewer fight than normal (4 instead of 5) and 2 first round stoppages and they couldnt squeeze in 1 prelim fight?
Somebody once posted that the announcers dont even announce the prelims. I thought it was bs at the time but could there be some truth to that now?
Just FYI, so I dont come off as a Strikeforce hater I loved the night of fights. Melendez/Thomson was sick and Le/Smith had me and my friends jaws dropped like did that really just happen.
At least no one is saying Gil will smash BJ yet.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
by MonkeyCHops on Dec 20, 2009 2:47 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Both WEC and Strikeforce put on great cards but clearly Strikeforce is in another league than the WEC.
In what planet, the WEC puts on the better shows with the better fighters if anything this night proved that SF is not in the WEC’s league.
LOL
At all the people getting pissed about which show was better tonight.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 20, 2009 7:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's a self-fufilling prophecy
You give the Strikeforce fights individual previews and reviews, not to mention separate quotes and videos. WEC on the other hand has to make due with little more than 2 posts. I’d hope Strikeforce is in another league…
by Matthew7 on Dec 20, 2009 5:21 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Yeah that pissed me off but for a different reason….
Bloody Elbow implemented the whole “No Strikeforce Results in the WEC thread” but lets post the results on the main page after each fight is over, ruined the Jacare/Lindland and King Mo fights for me. :(
by Buddha Brown on Dec 20, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
It was so strange when Le landed that flush head kick and Smith just kept standing there. One-strike KO really ain’t his game
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
wec puts on unreal fights always without even trying.. wow cung lee…. honestly no1 else thought smith would put his lights out?
I get a little bit weary of the whole "they lost so and so as a headliner debate. The fact is, with every loss of a headliner another one is made. It’s silly to always point it out and worry about it.
not always, and especially not in this case.
Scott Smith is not going to fill up an arena, while Cung Le can and has done that in often.
People in the know can question Cung le’s credentials and ranking and stuff, but he was undefeated and not a UFC washout, so he had that going for him, but Scott Smith is a UFC washout who’s gotten destroyed by Robbie Lawler twice (in front of big audiences) so people no exactly what he is. He’s not really close to being a headliner.
Scott Smith will never be a headliner. He beat a RING RUSTED Cung, which is nice and all but I (and most of you) will never forget the beating Nate Diaz gave Scott Smith in their previous fight. How do you sell a human punching bag/bobble head as a main event fighter?
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
he beat an EXTREMELY over cocky cung le.
i watched it on dvr with my roommate, and in the third round i kept saying “cung should keep his hands up, he’s getting wild and not protecting, he doesn’t realize this is smith’s area, he’s gonna get knocked out, this is what smith lives for” and BOOM he gets clipped.
Thats what smith is good at, taking beatings and coming back from them to knock a guy out. he always has heavy hands. Diaz beat him because he didn’t get cocky and chose to submit him. radach and now le believed they were leading, let their guard down, and got KTFO. Cung’s nose, which i didn’t believe could’ve been flatter, got completely flattened against his face. all because he got too cocky.
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not so sure it was him getting cocky, coulda just been fatigue.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 2:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Clarification not Clarified....
The difference is one is being promoted to the main event hence Cung Le. Kimbo has only made the main card.But don’t let the UFC shills fool you, there is no difference between promoting Kimbo Slice and promoting Cung Le and Hershel Walker. A spectacle is a spectacle no matter which carnie is selling it to you.
. Those guys matter and will be UFC-caliber fighters soon if they are not already. To even say UFC caliber fighters should tell you that in no time soon is any company the Pepsi to UFC’s coke
I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones
SF: Evolution = UFN
This was a small card. Meanwhile Kimbo was the main event of a 13-episode reality series, number of fights? One…
and # of metaphor’s that hit close to home? 2 very powerful speeches.
and this certainly wasn’t a fight night type card. it looked like it to us, but the championship was on the line in the lw div. exactly what we got last week for the ufc, but the ufc has bj penn, who would crush either of those guys
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry but Kimbo wasn’t the main event or even the co-main, better come up with a better lie to back your argument.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
cung le is absolutely a ufc-caliber fighter in terms of standup, but its quite obvious he doesnt have nearly the grappling game to beat a quality mw in the UFC. The fight got to the ground and his only offense was a legitimate latrell sprewell choke. His kicks are quite devastating, but it honestly looks like they aren’t all very powerful, as both frank and scott took a lot of damage via kicks, but got hit flush in the head and didn’t stagger. Any grappler with a resemblance of a chin could weather the kicks and take cung down, his wrestling base or not
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
his incredible stand up got him knocked out last night. Le was/is/always will be over rated. He fits into the VanDamm/Segal kinda fighters.
Not a hater as much as
When promoters over hype unproven talent, I tend to take it out on the talent.
Michael David Smith talks about this post:
Kid Nate at Bloody Elbow wrote after the fights Saturday night that “Tonight’s card and the January card are both stacked with intrigue for the serious and the casual MMA fan and compare quite favorably to UFC 108 and 109.” That’s a bold statement.
…
Strikeforce, on the other hand, is promising to give fans first-rate cards every month. And recently, it has delivered: In my opinion the November Strikeforce card on CBS was better than the UFC 106 pay-per-view two weeks later, and I agree with Kid Nate: Saturday night’s Strikeforce card will be a tough act for UFC 108 to follow in a couple weeks, and the January 30 Strikeforce card may very well turn out to be superior to UFC 109 a week later.
On the other hand, we shouldn’t carry this too far: Strikeforce doesn’t have anywhere near the roster depth that the UFC does, and with the exception of Fedor Emelianenko, you’re not going to see the truly elite, Top 10 pound-for-pound fighters in the world on Strikeforce shows.
…
And in the spring, with Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida all likely to defend their UFC titles, it’ll be almost impossible for Strikeforce to keep up with the UFC. In MMA, there’s still a big gap between the UFC and everyone else.
But as 2009 turns to 2010, that gap is closing. Strikeforce hasn’t caught the UFC, but it is giving MMA fans a great alternative.
read the rest here
Top 10 pound-for-pound fighters in the world on Strikeforce shows.
Hendo is or recently was top 10. Mousasi is or soon will be.
Hendo/ Moose/ Lawal- i’d love to see any of those guys face off against each other. I think that Lawal gets another build up fight next, but hendo should get right into the mix and i’d rather see him toy around with shields and send shields back to WW and then see the Moose vs Hendo. Its very interesting to think that this is the second time in Hendo’s career that he could enter an org and immediately challenge for two belts.
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Mousasi isn’t in top 10 p4p and wont be for a while…
by dancingChicken on Dec 20, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Scott Smith’s last minute knock out of Cung Le has cost Strikeforce another headline fighter.
I dunno if I agree with this. Everyone knows Le was beating his ass. If anything this is a good thing for Strikeforce in the fact that they have an excuse to do a big rematch allowing Le to take care of business the second time around. You know its coming, eventually. Unless Coker is dumb which he certainly isn’t.
Cerrone’s fight last night was awesome sans low blows. He is a superstar and a fan favorite. I wish he made the jump to UFC becuase his fights and style is always exciting.
Melendez was on his game last night. He was fully concentrated on getting that W. Great fight by both guys. Trilogy coming. Jimmy Lennon Jr scared the shit outta me when he said “And once again…” lol Josh thought he won and Melendez thought he lost at that moment lol. The Cecil Peoples factor didnt help either.
King Mo, I wish they would have shown his entrance live. Dude has major power, I love it. He really does have good movement like he’s always saying. It throws his opponents off.
Great night of fights by both promotions. Overall I enjoyed Strikeforce more though.
Mauricio Shogun Rua #1 LHW in the World. The TRUE Champion.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Also, if Cung loses the rematch the same way again, THEN Strikeforce is out a headliner lol.
Mauricio Shogun Rua #1 LHW in the World. The TRUE Champion.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Dec 20, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
as i posted above, i definately agree about the need to mix and match the lw divisions between the ufc once contracts are up.
nate diaz, pellegrino, neer- to the wec
varner, benderson, cerrone, njoukuani (sp?)- to the ufc
the only problem being the UFC is a shark tank in LW of wrestlers. Cerrone has shown his lack of attention to takedown defense. I think benderson could go in and challenge maybe a jim miller. Varner is a very legitimate talent, i’d like to see him against Daddy, or maybe guida.
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
I thnk Bendo would kill Miller not just challenge him. Some of these guys in WEC are world class. I REALLY wish WEC was on Spike and not VS. It would be so much more well known and recognized. These guys deserve it.
Mauricio Shogun Rua #1 LHW in the World. The TRUE Champion.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Dec 20, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
plus… and i hate jumping the gun… but i really think aldo is going to be at lw, and should be, pretty soon. The way he handled Brown, who truly is a beastly guy for 145, shows that he has the skills to stop takedowns from guys who are very powerful wrestlers. He’s shown no weakness in standup, and is so young that he could put on good weight very quickly. He NEEDS to be in the UFC, he’s such an exciting presence. I would never mind seeing him for free, but for his own sake i hope he cashes in on his talent
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I missed Gus last night...
=/
Mauricio Shogun Rua #1 LHW in the World. The TRUE Champion.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Two people ruined the Strikeforce card........at least there is a mute button.
by mr. gogoplata on Dec 20, 2009 12:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What are you talking about?
I thought Renallo did a good job. I didnt cringe once.
Mauricio Shogun Rua #1 LHW in the World. The TRUE Champion.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Dec 20, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I really wish people had the ability to separate people saying positive things about non-Zuffa promotions from the person writing them having some sort of bias.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 20, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions
i think we all just ought to get our heads out of our asses and enjoy some fights, who cares who holds them
by Austin Martin on Dec 20, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The whole anti zuffa/zuffa nuthuggers war need to end. And if somebody says a disparaging or positive thing about either org they shouldn’t automatically be lumped into either category. We just watched a night of great fights and all we can do is accuse eachother of having some retarded promotional bias.
by Neil Manich on Dec 20, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well Brent it’s kinda difficult when the person being accused feels the need to throw in how much better he thinks the non-Zuffa show was than the Zuffa show when there was no need to do that. Both shows had good fighters and exciting fights, why is it necessary to say one is in a “different league” than the other?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
by ufc4 on Dec 20, 2009 2:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
WEC vs Strikforce
The announcers for the WEC are 1000x better than the Strikeforce announcers. Getting to watch (listen) to both in such a short time frame, the guys from Strikeforce make me want to kill kittens. Mur has his faults but my eardrums are not bleeding during the fights.
Melendez vs Thompson was very entertaining but very sloppy. Good cards put on by both promoters.
I don’t care who puts on the fights as long as I get the fights. People need to stop buying into all the promoter hype and enjoy the fights. Listening to Coker/White/whoever is no different than a McDonalds TV ad selling you a nasty McFish. No matter what is promised in the ad its still a nasty McFish in the end.
That shit is tasty.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Dec 20, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
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