Joe Brammer to Be Sponsored by Controversial Hoelzer Reich Clothing at TUF 10 Finale
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:00 PM EST
in MMA News
390 comments
This story has been gaining a lot of steam around the forums over the past few days. Joe Brammer will be wearing a shirt from the company Hoelzer Reich at the TUF 10 finale. The shirt (pictured right) features several icons, such as the Iron Cross, that were used by the Nazis. Hoelzer Reich also uses many other symbols and images that are associated with Nazi culture.
HR Clothing states on their website that this is just a coincidence:
We do not have any Political affiliations with any organizations. Our interest in German imagery comes strictly from a historical and ancestral standpoint. For many years, we have collected German memorabilia dating back to the early 1800's, which has been passed through the family for generations. All of the German-inspired imagery used on our apparel dates back hundreds of years, and does not depict a certain time of German History.
However, certain aspect of the story just aren't adding up. There is a lot of discussion over HR's sponsorship of neo-nazi bands (such as Westwall, see the comment section for a discussion on this band and the ties to HR) and sponsoring fighters with neo-nazi tattoos (such as Niko Puhakka, featured on such classy sites as Skinhead Hate Crew). A thread over at the underground dives into the situation and points out some of the inconsistencies of the HR statements on their mission.
I've never been one to deny fighters the right to make a living and Lyle Beerbohm on the above linked Underground thread even discusses how important HR's sponsorship was in his life. However, I can't support any company's right to sponsor an MMA event when they appear to have connections to things so deeply rooted in racism and hate.
Speaking personally, I hope the UFC steps in and prevents Brammer, and any other fighter from wearing Hoelzer Reich apparel at their events. If we're going to see companies banned from sponsorship for putting money in Fedor and Dan Henderson's pockets, I hope companies that put money in the pockets of hate groups receive the same treatment.
Update: For those just coming across the story here is a bit more on the above mentioned ties to the band West Wall:
West Wall is a neo-Nazi metal band led by the former leader of the neo-Nazi skinhead group Northern Hammerskins. Hoelzer Reich's website contained photos of the band in their shirts which the brand explains as the band buying the shirts and mailing them photos which were then posted and removed once it was realized who they were. However, in an interview the lead singer of the band said that they were sponsored by the brand. Add that to the fact that up until recent days the label's blog stated West Wall as their favorite band and the fact that HR's myspace page featured a playlist of West Wall songs and it becomes hard to think that the posting of the band in HR shirts was a simple mistake.
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There is no way the UFC will let this happen
There is no way the UFC will let one of there fighters wear a tshirt from a company with such obvious links to Nazism. The last thing the UFC wants is to be associated with something as evil as this. From a business standpoint it makes no sense.
Danzig already did so yea it’ll happen
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Danzig and Roli Delgado are the only 2 in the UFC I believe
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
I can find plenty of pictures of Mac Danzig in a Hoelzer Reich shirt. Haven’t found any with Roli in one yet. It doesn’t even make sense for Roli, he’s not even German.
Here’s a link to the HR site, under the top-middle shirt it says “See this shirt on Roli Delgado…” Best I could find right now…
http://www.hr4life.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Danzig and Roli Delgado are the only 2 in the UFC I believe
Donald Cerrone also was sponsored by HR.
There are quite a few recognizable names, just check their website.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I know the party line on Dana is that he’s the petty, money-grubbing Don of the UFC, but if he allows this, I will be floored. Unacceptable.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 6:06 PM EST reply actions
I was wishing this didn’t become so public so that I would see if the UFC would pull this without the burden of public expectation. I have serious doubts that they would have.
But in all seriousness, this may not be true of MMA, but in other competitions where sponsors are involved, the sponsors are far more abundant than the talent. It’s a bit of a cop out to say they they’re only wearing the shit because they are sponsoring him and he’s German. I’m sure Tapout would be glad to pay the kid to wear a t-shirt without the whole hate group support thing. It will be VERY sad if this slips by.
You have a great point. The UFC’s “true self” would be revealed on the matter without the specter of public opinion
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Not trying to say what they would or wouldn't do
But it’s really one of the few indicators of motive available to us. Hell, this entire comment section is a guessing game about HR and other shit
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I think HR is pretty clear, or clinically stupid.
But the guessing game about “how would the UFC act about this if we hadn’t caught on” is annoyingly paranoid.
Give the anti-UFC stuff a rest.
What?
When am I ever anti-UFC? Don’t come around here with that stuff. I refrain from most Zuffa vs. the world arguments, and don’t appreciate the generalization
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
LOL
Let me go make a post about the KJ Noons signing changing the landscape of MMA
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
The Iron Cross has been awarded since 1813. The modern Bundeswher also uses the Iron Cross as their principal marking, seen here on a Leopard 2 main battle tank:
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leopard-2-1980.jpg
I can’t speak for the makers of this shirt, but the markings are not Nazi markings.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
Yes, but it does have ties, as do the lightning bolt S’s. And many of the other symbols HR uses. And the sponsorship of neo-nazi fighters. and the language they use toward said fighters. and the sponsorship of neo-nazi music festivals….etc
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm… so what?
I think since the symbols were already in use before and the Nazis simply used them, as long as the company states they are NOT of that affiliation, people can quiet down.
Of course, Fox News will get a hold of it and turn it into some story about how someone hates Obama.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Swastikas date back almost 10,000 years.
The initial meaning is relevant to an intellectual, historical discussion and nothing else. The meaning is forever changed.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think since the symbols were already in use before and the Nazis simply used them
You can say that about virtually all Nazi imagery.
also
that were used by the Nazis.
is not saying that they are exclusively nazi markings
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
That speaks nothing of the associations people make with that symbol. Regardless of its origins it is now firmly associated with Nazism. As has the word Reich.
West Coast Choppers uses the Iron Cross as well.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
This company sponsors Neo Nazi events/bands, skin head fighters, and other nazi bullshit. Its obvious what they represent and who they are trying to reach with this crap
Neo-Nazi websites like Stormfront.org love Hoelzer Reich by the by
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t care how important their sponsorship money is to Lyle or anyone else, I’d rather stand on the street and beg for money to feed my kids than take it from a company with even the slightest hint of neo-Nazi sympathies.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 6:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions 6 recs
I was kind of hoping this wouldn’t make its way over to BE but here we go
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Any reason why?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
prolly cuz the discussion can get out of hand. you gonna have to be on your toes moderating this one
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Oh trust me...
we discussed that prior to posting this
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much what was said above. I also followed the UG thread for awhile and it’s kind of being dragged out over there so it’s just I’m personally sick of it. I’m not, however, closed to hearing opinions from BE crew.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Yeah, you lost me at “UG thread”. I can’t go there anymore, the moderation went downhill like two years ago.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
It’s an important topic, would you rather have the discussion here or the Sherdog forums?
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Umm…. as stated in the post, it’s been going on at the UG but I’m guessing you were trying to go with the whole “STFU Sherdog No0b” angle.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
No I wasn’t, but the UG isn’t exactly the most intelectual of places either.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 6:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I actually met the girlfriend (Jamie) of the guy who owns the clothing company over at FedEx a while ago. Random piece of info there.
They’re not a Nazi clothing line nor do they have any neo-Nazi ties.
http://www.hr4life.com/aboutus.asp
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
That is linked above...
but to be honest…based on who and what they sponsor…I don’t buy that as anything more than a cover
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I wouldn’t expect them to proclaim their (alleged) ties on their own site where they do business. That wouldn’t be very intelligent. I have yet to see proof of these “ties” so until then, I think people are jumping to conclusions.
what ties are you looking for proof of?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
exactly...
to all the ppl saying “it has different connotations/meanings! where are the ties??” ..
If i saw a dude walking down the street with a shirt like this, first think ima think is hes a skinhead. 99% of anyone with any common sense would think the same
it’s all about the design, in this instance. I’m not arguing against the company’s intent, I’m just saying these symbols in and of themselves aren’t pro-nazi. It’s the intent of the user, for things like this that have deeper roots.
Their intent seems pretty incriminated. People think I’m trying to defend this company, fuck no. I’m just talkin bout the Iron Cross and German flag and shit like that
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
come on please so what are the first thoughts somethinks when they see the word Reich a storm trooper helmet the Hoelzer Reich HT symbol made to look just like a dam Swastika, The uniforms on skulls that resemble a Waffen SS uniform to a T. The Field Marshal Hat on thw other skull and so on and so fourth, please this stuff screams Neo-Nazi wear all that its missing is a few 88’s crossed hammers and RAHOWA on the dam shirts.
you know your skin symbols sir. don’t forget the lightning bolts, though. those are on the shirt and they were the stormtroopers symbols (or something similar)
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
I think wat Mr. Downey is saying is:
A steel helmet (Stahlhelm) =/= nazism
The Iron Cross =/= nazism
The word Reich =/= nazism
Stahlhelm + Iron Cross + Reich = fucking nazism
by nottheface on Dec 2, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The German phrase on this shirt got my attention.
“das vierte reich hat begonnen”
Just BE.
"The Fourth Reich Has Begun"
For the non-German speakers
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Hoelzer Reich’s website recently showcased their sponsorship of Neo-Nazi Metal band West Wall. West Wall features guitarist “Iceman” AKA Ed Wolbank, a former member of the notorious white power band Bound for Glory. Wolbank is also the former leader of the Nazi skinhead group Northern Hammerskins in St. Paul, Minnesota.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Their response to that went something along the lines, the band purchased the shirts and sent HR a picture wearing them. They claimed they weren’t endorsing West Wall but merely displaying fan photos that was sent to them. Eventually, they took down the photos from their website.
Take it as you will…
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.singleplaylist&friendid=6180503&plid=583555 That would be a playlist of nothing but westwall songs…on the Hoelzer Reigh myspace page
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Yet...still there
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I’m just saying I remember the days when Myspace was actually .. well .. good.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
And those were....?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I always hated myspace and jumped to fuckbook pretty early
Actually back in the day I had a Xanga page.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
My county's schools
actually mention Xanga by name in their list of prohibited sites, right mnext to Facebook and MySpace. Yeah, those regs were written more than a few years ago…
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Didn’t see that, I stand corrected.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Also...
It is a new clothing line company out of California that sponsors professional Cage Fighters, Motorcross Riders and our band. Check out their gear, it is very cool!!
- From an interview with westwall
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
You sir came well prepared for this discussion, lol
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Dec 2, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
not that I support their cause, but some of the best metal comes from some fucked up dudes who have major issues. Just like a lot of the best rap is created by some guys who should be in jail for selling drugs, murder and rape.
Ok...
Yeah, there are bands like Mayhem with musicians like Varg, but your statement seems to excuse them for being creatively racist. I’ll say this here. Nazi’s are not dumb. They are people with an agenda. They can be smart, creative, personable, and entertaining. They are still fucking Nazis.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Im not saying they are not bad
what I am saying is that some fucked up people can quite often make some brilliant shit.
It is possible to support the art and not the artist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Varg founded Burzum.
He was also bassist for Mayhem (alias Count Grishnackh). Then he killed their guitarist. Then the guitarists mother asked Hellhammer to delete Varg’s bass tracks from the next album and rerecord with someone else out of respect, which he agreed to. Then didn’t.
Yeah. I’ve said it before here. I’m a metal nerd.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Mayhem is the same band where the singer blew his own brains out, then they made a stew out of it, yes?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Right band, but not a stew, I believe.
The previously mentioned (murdered) guitarist ate part of the vocalists brain after taking pictures of the body when he found it. They then used said pictures as the cover of the live album Dawn of the Black Hearts.
Worth noting, the vocalist was called by the alias Dead.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Scandinavian metal bands creep me the fuck out. Every interview I see them in they take it way too seriously.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
Thank God for Metalocolypse
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Thank God for Spinal Tap
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Eh... some of them.
Soilwork, In Flames, Children of Bodom… they’re all pretty fun loving guys. That said, the old school black metal guys are fucking insane.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
You should watch the documentary Until the Light Takes Us. It’ll really do a number on ya.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
This is just me personally
but I don’t associate the Iron Cross with Nazism, nor the term reich. They can indeed be hijacked by the wrong sorts, just like the Stars and Bars down south, hell even the Christian cross. However, you can’t associate yourself with a company that associates itself with pro-Nazi groups.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 6:21 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
To be clear...
I am well aware of the fact that the iron cross has other representations/meanings/whatever.
However…when you combine it with a german flag, the word reich, the fact that they sponsor various things/people with neo nazi ties…and I think it’s fair to draw the use of the iron cross back to the nazi use
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
The German flag on the t-shirt is the modern German flag.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
I'm aware sir...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
I get you, bro
I’m saying it’s my conclusion that the Iron Cross and German flag are merely tangential to Nazism. They’re not derived from the era of the 30s and 40s, they just happened to pass through those eras.
I agree, however, that ties to neo nazi groups is pretty damn incriminating. But for some random dude whose bloodlines go back 200 years where his ancestors fought for Frederick Wilhelm or something like that, these things have an entirely different significance than anything Nazi-related
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Hoelzer Reich’s website recently showcased their sponsorship of Neo-Nazi Metal band West Wall. West Wall features guitarist “Iceman” AKA Ed Wolbank, a former member of the notorious white power band Bound for Glory. Wolbank is also the former leader of the Nazi skinhead group Northern Hammerskins in St. Paul, Minnesota.
posted that above but want to make sure it gets seen since it’s pretty damning
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know anything about this company or Joe Brammer, and I don't want to imply anything about them
having said that, I fucking hate Nazis.
by tichbou on Dec 2, 2009 6:23 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
“Illinois Nazis… I hate Illinois Nazis”
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
rec'd for Blues Brothers
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
So. Fucking. Rec'd.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 2, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Haha, Rec’d for Big Lebowski reference.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Also:
So. Fucking. Rec’d.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 2, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
have no problems at all with the iron cross.
but the sponsorship of white power bands, s.s. lightning bolts, and totenkopfs—come on.
https://www.buysilverstar.com/shop/product/death-club-506.html
Silver Star used the Totenkopfs. And no one said a damn thing.
The fact is that no one would bring this up if their name wasn’t perceived as Nazi.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Or if they didn’t sponsor nazi fighters and bands
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
So who are they supposed to sponsor then? Hard to get your brand out there sometimes. TapOut had the same problem.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Ah! I get it! All emerging brands tend to repeatedly sponsor neo-nazis to get their message out!
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm fine!
But to say that it’s just a way to get their message out isn’t…really a valid argument
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
All I’m saying is that I can understand where both sides are coming from. I can see how they’d be conceived as neo-Nazi but I could see how they also couldn’t. It’s a fine line, but that’s society these days.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
But again…the westwall thing, and the sponsorship of neo-nazi fighters, and the use of that symbolism. It’s either a hell of an oversight, or it’s simple math
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
no
I don’t lay this at the feet of society and all of it’s “PC bullshit”. I don’t expect the UFC to be a band-wagon PC organization, but I do expect them to be citizen of the world. That’s an unclear standard, but to me it means they should certainly not allow a fighter to wear this gear.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
by lcollins1 on Dec 2, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Citizen of the world? You mean the same world that ridiculed them for the image they presented? Seems like this is the kind of gear that they’d allow.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Look
I just don’t think the UFC should affiliate with a company that advertises Nazism. I think this company does advertise and cater to a hateful crowd.
Now, this isn’t a free speech issue, the UFC CAN affiliate with the company. And if they the UFC’s feelings got hurt from being persecuted for their ‘image’, maybe they want to lash themselves to this company. I just wouldn’t do it, and I hope they distance.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
whoever made this company grew up in the same world as us and understands that this shirt is the definition of a 21st century neo-nazi brand.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Blown WAY out of proportion
It’s really not that big a deal. If you don’t like what the guy is wearing, root for him to lose. So what you find the shirt offensive? Some people find a guy knocking another guy out cold, then celebrating over his limb body “offensive” I say wear the shirt. These fighters need to get paid, and you guys need to get off your high horses.
by Myke25 on Dec 2, 2009 6:42 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It’s not about high horses, it’s about a basic respect for human life. If you can’t understand something that simple then anything else said on this topic is gonna go way over your head.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So, just to be clear
is there ANY cause, political ideal or even hate group you would say, “Yup, that’s where I draw the line” ? Overt neo-Nazi? White supremicist? PETA? Asian Daw?
Karl: [mouthing silently] Asian Dawn?
Hans: [covers the radio] I read about them in Time magazine.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
The Nazis also used Eagles in their political offices, we should ban them too.
But as long as they arent spreading the hedonistic racist messages, I hardly see how the imagery of German military awards can be seen as heinous or particularly volatile, but it’s upsetting.
You know the Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 8 recs
Lol, I actually just popped the DVD in to make sure I got the quote exactly right, it’s been too long since I watched it last.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Watched it forth the billionth time the other night. Been quoting it ever since :) Okay, maybe billionth isn’t quite true, but a heck of a lot.
I love me some Sexyama!
Putting on my flame-retardant gear
But I liked Idiocracy more…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I found that flick quite disappointing
I spent the last hour thinking, “OK, I get it. Quit beating me over the head, Mike Judge.”
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Go away!
’Batin!
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hit a little too close to home, eh?
I keed, I keed!
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Dec 2, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Agree. Very clever idea but never fulfilled. Somehow I blame the studio: it was obviously an unfinished picture. The mix was poor, FX shots where cheap, and nothing looked properly color timed. I wonder what it would have been like if Judge had been able to properly finish it.
The same review can be used for Paul Schrader’s The Excorcist.
That is a very good point
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Flame on!
Idiocracy? Really? I thought it was kind of lame considering the brilliance of Office Space.
I love me some Sexyama!
Sorry…but King of the Hill is Mike Judge at his finest.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Earlier seasons, yes. People seem to have forgotten Beavis and Butthead as well…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
B&B didn’t age all that well for me (except the music video segments)
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Me, too.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Before I jump in the shower to go out, hypothetical question time.
Question: If Jon Jones wore a HR shirt, would anyone be offended?
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Sure I would
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Im not offended by the fighters....
ppl have to eat, and if this is what they gotta do to get money if they cant get a sponsor, then so be it.
I am offended by the company, and who/what they sponsor
If I saw a black guy wearing a neo-nazi shirt, I’d laugh my ass off.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
I was waiting for that to happen
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
token cough cough
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
You called?
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by ultimatefightsource on Dec 2, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get it...
I don’t see anything wrong with the shirts. Going through them all, sure.. they have the look of something Nazi-era because we associate the Iron Cross with Nazis, but.. whatever. Of course, sponsoring a Neo-Nazi band is another thing.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Were it just the imagery I’d simply think it was in poor taste. But the choice of who and what they sponsor lends meaning TO the imagery
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, now that I see who some of the guys they sponsor are… Nikko Puhakka. I say this is an attempt to put white power into the mainstream through MMA sponsorships.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
I also love the fact that HR says “Strength & Honor, Comrade” on Nikko’s MySpace page.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Also...
look at the westwall discussion above. It’s a nazi group leader’s band…and they sponsor them.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t really follow. They are a German inspired clothing company who uses imagery that happens to be popular with the Neo-Nazi and Skinhead crowd. It seems like it is a perfect fit for the company to sponsor those folks and clearly they will enjoy HR’s product. It makes sense to sponsor them, but that doesn’t mean they endorse the hate.
Really, those types are probably my least favorite people. A friend of mine was brutally killed by local skinheads a few years back, but this seems to be hysteria for it’s own sake.
So they use imagery that evokes the idea of nazism…sponsor nazis…and we’re supposed to go “well who else would enjoy your product?!”
Seems like a problem with the product doesn’t it?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sure other people do enjoy their product, but the Neo-Nazi culture will always be a perfect fit for anything inspired by German pride. Just the same way Confederate inspired items will be enjoyed by racist rednecks. Don’t blame the company for it’s consumer market, it’s clear there is more to HR than supremacist ideology.
We should save our venom for those who actually claim to be Neo-Nazis, not those who claim to have German pride. It’s not really fair.
They could very easily not SPONSOR these people though. I can’t fault a company for people purchasing and wearing their clothing. But to actively seek out and reward these people is wrong
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Here is the thing, for me anyway, they sponsor individuals who will get them money. That’s the goal of sponsorship. That crowd will make the money. I can easily see a company thinking, “Okay, this is a cash maker for us but we have to be clear we don’t endorse their hate”.
They could be selling to a graphic
maybe they dont ENDORSE the message, but they SELL it.
Well, that’s the rule: Don’t use if you sell…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I believe the proper saying is " don’t get high on your own supply".
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No…sorry but sponsorship is part of a company image. Who you sponsor dictates how you want to be seen.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree. You sponsor someone in order to make money. They make money from that culture, so people in the culture get sponsored.
Well then…they can not say that they do not support neo-nazi ideals…
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Because they are putting money in the pockets of men whose music promotes hate, men who lead neo-nazi groups. You can’t give money to a band or fighter who actively promotes neo-nazi ideals BECAUSE they reach out to said audience while saying you don’t support what they say.
There is a reason why sponsors regularly drop contracts with athletes who commit certain acts.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
they don't have to openly state they support them.
an implied support, along with the symbolism, leads others (the consumers) to buy the product because they believe the company supports the cause. the company can deny all they want.
So if I started a clothing co. called “Die Jew Die” and sponsored these people it would be ok because they would make me money? I mean, as long as I made it clear that I don’t endorse hate.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Thank you!
I was so sure that nobody would get the reference. Loves me some BE users.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
I realize that’s taking it to an extreme but to act like it’s ok to appeal to the neo-Nazi crowd because it would make the company money is a ridiculous viewpoint.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That isn’t the issue. The issue is that they haven’t distanced themselves from Nazi culture. They sponsor a “skinhead” fighter who proudly says that in Nikko Puhakka, and they also sponsor a band that is blatantly for the Neo Nazi movement.
If they were so against it, they wouldn’t do such a thing.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Why would they distance themselves from part of their market? Why alienate a group of people who make you money?
There is no reason why would should imply smart business as actual endorsement of the lifestyle.
Why would you distance yourself from Neo-Nazis? Is that what you’re seriously asking?
I understand the “business” move it would be to attract those people, but that can KILL your business quickly if a media outlet finds out.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
If they were a viable market for your product, why would you alienate them? If it were me, I’d say it was an unfortunate evil of being a proud German (I know Germans who feel this way) the same way real Confederates feel about being associated with racists.
It can and might kill their business. It’s their risk to take.
Well, then this comes down to the UFC banning them from showing those shirts on television, plain and simple. I understand the business viewpoint, sure…
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Allow me to get up on a soapbox, since there are plenty lying around.
But I fucking hate the fact any time the stars and bars are around and people associate it with racism. I do, however, understand why; because of the clans and burned crosses and all those ignorant sons of bitches who have shitty morals and need a symbol to rally around because they’re too stupid to form critical ideas. On my mom’s side of the family (with the deep Georgia roots), no one’s ever owned another person (this has been checked), and I’ve never heard racist things from my family. But I can never, never, acknowledge that some of my ancestors fought for the South without being flamed.
The thing is, this will never change. The Confederate flag was born of that specific time, so it’s different from something like the Iron Cross that predates its most infamous usage
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
the confederate flag is as equal a representation of the south as it is of the reason why the south wanted secession- the right to own slaves. you can’t deny that
I can and do. Again, not a discussion for here but this is very shortsighted view of what that war was about.
by VegasBatman on Dec 2, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
its not shortsighted. there are years of revisionist history. and i’d bet, since we’re both american, but i’m from the north, that we might’ve even been taught differing things.
reference Sean Wilentz
an anthology of primary sources from 1787-1850.
Not trying to be snide in my suggestion, just a good source of stuff that was written at the time, not revised
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Those are some of the most important years in this nation’s history, but also some of the most overlooked. A war isn’t made in a decade (+1 point for rhyme!)
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Since I was a history major and not from the north or the south, I’ll take my understanding of it. That war was NOT fought over slavery.
I hate how it’s called the American Civil War. A civil war is two sides fighting over control over the government – ask King Charles I about that. The CSA was trying to form a new country. I favor renaming it War of Southern Secession. As it stands, it sounds like the South never even separated from the Union. Oh, winners writing history…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
I went to church with people who called it the War of Northern Aggression, which, hilariously, is more accurate
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Or the War of Northern Liberation for the 1/3 of the population that was denied the right to vote on succession.
Secession.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
I hate all forms of auto-correct.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
They seem to screw me up more often than they help.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
maybe its a smart business move
in a market that is swamped with competitors, they found a niche (albeit an immoral one) but still, if the shirts sell, money is made
It’s not a smart move if they want longevity, but more importantly, growth in their company. At least I hope they don’t have growth because that would mean we’re in trouble as a society.
I love me some Sexyama!
I don’t think that’s true. We’ll always have Neo-Nazis, it’s sick but their out there and spending money. We’ll always have people who are proud to be German. Then you have people who think shit like Iron Crosses are just cool.
If they have growth it doesn’t somehow mean people sympathize with Nazism. I like shit with Rebel Flags on it, it doesn’t damn society.
iron crosses have zilch to do with Nazism
i have many punk/ ska friends that sport them because they are in the counter culture. you could pick out several of these symbols and say that they aren’t inherently racist symbols, but the sum of all the parts says that they are indeed nazi
I thought it said “Jesus” and became supremely confused.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
It’s pretty easy to follow.
Nikko Puhakka, a sponsored fighter, is within the circles of the White Supremacist movement. Westwall is a band under the same assumption.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
You know what man, you’re right. I mean, look; Let’s say that you’re a racist motorcycle gang involved in the sales and distribution of drugs on a national level, right? And you’re looking for a way to make that money look legit, you know, because that’s better for everyone involved and paying taxes and everything. You gotta sell something that fits in with your image.
Hey, MMA fans! Long believed to be filled with racist rednecks dating back since practically the beginning, its the perfect place to launder that unfortunately slightly dirty money from all the meth selling and beatings and killings. Even better, those guys don’t make jack, so they’ll take whatever sponsorship money comes their way. You could probably put the picture of a Klansman on a black fighter for about $1500 and have him on Showtime or Spike TV in front of a audience of people more likely to be interested in your goods than anything this side of NASCAR.
You know what, Vegas, you are right. As long as you have no issue with throwing morality out the window and just play ignorant to, oh, everything in that UG thread, everything is alright with the world. What could possibly go wrong for MMA as a sport with this as its image, amirite?
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, I am totally lost on your point. What does a racist motorcycle gang have to do with a clothing company?
Again; read the thread, particularly as people begin to realize that someone along the way has to be bankrolling the company.
In any case, the company’s clear use of the symbolism of facism and apparent willingness to market itself to its adherents first and foremost does nothing positive for the sport of MMA. Are they allowed to exist? Sure. I wouldn’t demand they be put in jail merely for printing the shirts. However, promotions in MMA should completely distance themselves from them for the obvious PR reasons.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with your last sentence entirely. I disagree that we should damn a company because Nazi’s like it and HR likes to make money off of them.
A company that makes money selling merchandise for Neo-Nazis doesn’t deserve admiration any more than someone who draws “art” of underage girls for pervs deserves a pat on the back.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
This is ridiculous. You can’t blame a company because Nazi’s like their stuff. That would damn anything to do with German pride.
Its pretty clearly geared towards WP folks, just as a well penciled picture of a nude 11 year old would be geared to pedos. And just like the litany of excuses from HR, that artist probably would have several of his own: “I like their form!” “I do this for the art, I can’t control the consumption”, et al.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
No but you can blame them for appealing to that group just to make a few dollars.
by ufc4 on Dec 2, 2009 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’m not even specifically talking about BE.
It’s just an old play: do something controversial, get a bunch of publicity, sell a lot of gear.
We’re inadvertently helping the cause by doing anything but ignoring this company.
by casey manrique on Dec 2, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and I understand the irony of posting about not posting.
by casey manrique on Dec 2, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Fascinating that, while it would still get a response, if a fighter wore a shirt with Red Hammer & Scicle to the ring most people would brush it aside
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I’m gonna start “Al Qaeda Fight Co.” and just be ahead of the curve.
by casey manrique on Dec 2, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t go down that road. The holocaust is a blip on the radar compared to communism.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on Dec 2, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
let's not get into a debate over if communism or nazism is worse...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
I will not debate politics here. I'm sorry for mentioning it.
Just trying to emphasize the difference between the theory and praxis. Philosophy students do that…
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
it's cool...
the points are all valid but I don’t want to get too far from the point of the article…meaning the company and what their sponsorship of fighters means in the grand scheme of things
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Brent, this was the shit I was saying
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, chill.
Read the conversation, it was a brief tangent that fizzled after a handful of thought out comments and ended amicably. The community is mature enough to discuss this, and the mods/editors are alert enough to shepard it in when we stray.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
Homey be cool
Im aware of that, I aint flipping out. Im just stating how cats can take this heart.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
never said it was
Just saying, my mother was taught to HATE Russians growing up, and that Red Star meant the person wearing it was your enemy.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Because it's totally different.
Nazi’s had a specific ideological goalof genocide. Communism, although often ending in repressive totalitarian states, is theorized with good intentions.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Stalinism, specifically. Don’t overlook The Great Purge, or the fact that he rounded up peasants and marched them in front of his infantry to make the German’s “waste” ammunition
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right, that's my point.
No elaboration necessary.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not the place for Communism > Nazism or vice versa arguments, but we should note the differences of perception.
Stalinism was the prevalent form of Communism for years, and it’s the ideological figurehead of Communism in the West. Just like how when you say facism ppl think of the Nazi’s rather than Mussolini’s government. It’s simply what most think of, and what many of our parents were taught to believe was Satan incarnate—Stalin was symbolic of Communism, therefore Communism was Stalinism
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Ugh.
I agree that Stalinism is effing awful. I agree with everything you said up until your conclusion, which I find to be patently false. I will debate this issue no further, per the wishes of Brent.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Last statement on the issue, but I gotta make it
It’s about the perception, not the reality
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I understand your point, respectfully disagree.
We can end the politics here.
Guessing you hate Monson?
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
LOL no, not really
I’m quite liberal myself, though Anarchism is a bit out there for my taste.
Matt Hughes on the other hand…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
y’all like to watch fightin?
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
You know, I train UFC....
/c’mon, someone had to say it.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
People have argued this before in regards to Monson, who has it tattooed on his body. Its one of the reasons it took forever for him to get a UFC contract, and a likely reason why there’s no rush to get him a new one.
In any case, neither of those political affiliations are wise ones for a sport like the UFC to tie themselves to in any way. Taking money from HR (which the UFC does) requires they know who they are.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
On a similar vein: wouldn’t owning a high-priced purse emblazoned with Mao actually be mocking communism and not praising it, since it would be transforming a Marxist icon into just another commodity?
LOL
Just like the $55 Che t-shirts I see douchebags wearing at the mall
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 2, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
By wearing a shirt with a communist icon plastered on it you are really mocking the movement he followed.
I still ain’t wearing a Che shirt.
I think some people are getting caught up in the design themselves, when they should be looking at the company’s actions. HR can say whatever they want on their website, and they could have fluffy bunnies on their shirts for all I care, but it’s their actions that count, and if they’re promoting bands and festivals that have bands that promote hate, then they should be taken to task for it.
I love me some Sexyama!
Furthermore...
Beerbohm has some interesting quotes on that UG thread.
Someone asked if the sponsor black fighters, and he says he had dinner with one that they did sponsor. He did go on to say he didn’t like their shirts that much, but he needed cash. I could see how some fighters might simply think… well, this stuff was around before Nazis, why not?
But… I think they have a secret agenda.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
If a fighter is really thinking that, and choses to put their head in the sand, then it goes to their integrity. There are times in my life when I’ve needed money too, but I never resorted to aligning myself if companies like this.
I love me some Sexyama!
To be fair… it sounds like Lyle asked all sorts of questions and had a dilemma about actually doing the sponsorship before actually signing. So, I think he had a financial problem and they offered him out of that problem.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Right...
i would prefer fighters turn down sponsorships from HR, but Lyle makes it sound like it was either take it…or quit fighting
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Right, and he really makes no defensive argument against any of the rude posters who are against him. I think he feels like it was wrong to an extent, but he was financially on empty at the time.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
i would say its quite an easy conclusion to draw that they have a hidden agenda
Using covert motifs like this and getting them popularized by putting their brand on famous fighters is one way to provoke interest.
Lyle Beerbohm wants to fight. Its really the only thing he’s particularly good at. Problem: Lyle Beerbohm can’t support himself as a fighter because he makes no consistent money outside sponsorships. As harsh as this is, if he turns them down, a lot of guys won’t, and they’ll still get their PR. And Lyle doesn’t get a check. He’s going to do whatever he can to keep pulling those checks, even if it means he defends them. After all, being sponsored by them means he’s representing their product.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
That UG Thread...
Is ALL SORTS of fail on the HR reps end. She can’t defend anything at all.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
That’s honestly what seems to have dragged out that thread so long, she was trying to defend HR but it only added fuel to the fire.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
The fact that she still hasn’t answered why the sponsor Nikko Puhakka is what kills me. She tries to refute the whole Westwall thing, but look at their song titles. She’s dumber than a doornail if she couldn’t figure that out.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 2, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
my point being that those are just as much WWI and 2 German symbols as an Iron cross. All have been adopted by other groups who are not at all Nazis
I get what you're sayin
But you gotsta use some better stuff. When people ask me how I would identify a Nazi soldier, #s 273 and 274 would be “wool overcoat” and “combat boots” lol
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
You’re comparing things they used functionally with things they used to express their ideology. Not even remotely similar things.
the bottom line is
although the imagery this company does predate nazism, this company sponsors members of a hate mongering, murder advocating group. By doing so they are providing resources, money, and an outlet to said group, and helping them spread their message.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:30 PM EST reply actions
I dunno...
I don’t really care about the eagle so much as…they stole a design…exactly…from a nazi clothing company, and are saying that their clothing has nothing to do with nazism
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
clearly
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
The eagle is a symbol of power, usually centralized or solidified. Consider how famous Nazis were for their Iron Eagles.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
is that first t-shirt an HR shirt? there’s nothing subversive about that shit at all
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
No...
to be clear. the first shirt is from an outspoken nazi clothing company (lost the name) the second is the same exact design…but with a few things replaced with their name/initials
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Im playing devils advocate here, but that’s like comparing
which is anti propaganda satirical art with
which is just ripping off the style (for a campaign, ironic?) How do we know they are not just going for the style because its “hardcore” and that is WHY they removed all the symbols?
The ties the company have
are what makes this pretty simple for me. If they came out and said
“we understand we are using images/phrases/etc that could be related to Nazi-ism and or the Neo Nazi movement, however this is purely for design purposes and we in no way link or assiociate our company with either group”…then fair enough.
However, the facts Brent have displayed here show that sadly, this isnt the case at all. They’re sponsoring bands, events and more that have ties with Neo Nazi movements, strong ties at that and are then pleading innocence when people come to the obvious conclusion that maybe they follow the same suit.
I just dont see how a company within the public eye could make such a schoolboy error of judgement, its literally impossible. Its plain and simple that people will come to this conclusion and the facts support it.
"I want to tell me what you see, lets go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring" -Tito Ortiz, MMA's finest commentator.
The UG thread is actually pretty informative.
This could turn into one of those TV investigations since “MMA + Nazis + HA” = good ratings.
This is an illustrative thread when it comes to a lot of the commentors, and sadly does little to dispell beliefs a lot of people around the sport have about the fans. Oh well. It will be something I can keep in mind as I return to lurk mode….
Seriously. For all the generally deserved trash talk MMA fans gave him after his rant, he can go “Yeah, well, the UFC allows a bunch of guys with skinhead garb to advertise on their shows!” And he’s right.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 2, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ahem.
250 comments and no one thought to ask the final arbiter in all things race-related?
Well, there’s your answer. Carry on.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Dec 2, 2009 7:40 PM EST reply actions 10 recs
Where's my fuckin super-rec button?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
as stated above...
at the very least if he points out that MMA fighters are sponsored by neo-nazi supporters we can’t go “nuh uh!”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
This thread is getting out of hand
Look, I’m not trying tell yall how to run the site, but I think this is one of these threads where the comments might need to be turned off
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 7:52 PM EST reply actions
Why?
it’s very calm rational discussion from what I can see
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
I shudder to think
what this thread would have looked like on a Yahoo! board….
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
IDK, discussion like this can get taken to heart, people can get emotional
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
it’s kind of leading to other discussions, where it’s probably not the place to be discussed, you feel me?
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 2, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that...
but…so far we’re okay. I’m the law here tonight
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
Judge, jury and executioner!!!
DROK IT!
/Anthrax FTMFW!
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
"ah um the luhhhh"
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
?
For the potential it had, I think it ended up pretty civil. I’ve had worse discussions over Sam Adams, cigarettes, and papers me and my friends should’ve been writing instead
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
C'mon, Sam Adams?
You’re not actually DEFENDING that vile swill, are you?
/seriously, I’ve never had it, no idea how it tastes
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
They were actually talking about Sam Adams, old Governor of Massachusetts.
by nottheface on Dec 2, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
ha
It’s an acquired taste, to say the least. At first I hated it, but now I have no problems knocking back some Irish Red or Winter Lager (i think brews will taste worse when i can drink them legally..)
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
The SA Cream Stout is so damn good.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite beer is Newcastle :P
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Never heard of it, but I find local/regional breweries tend to be superior. Now I know you know about some Dogfish Head, right? I mean, their 120 minute IPA is like 18%
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
It's busy but civil.
Every person has had a good point, or something funny to say.
by pdl on Dec 2, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for making this point, Brent
“If we’re going to see companies banned from sponsorship for putting money in Fedor and Dan Henderson’s pockets, I hope companies that put money in the pockets of hate groups receive the same treatment.”
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
If the fighters don’t wear overtly offensive symbols (and the iron cross is unequivocally not one), I don’t see the problem.
Social engineering is not the UFC’s job.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
You don’t have a problem promoting a clothing company that also sponsors and publicizes hate groups?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
What if someone wants to get a giant cock tattooed on his chest?
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
by MonkeyCHops on Dec 2, 2009 8:06 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I'd be horribly offended.
Steve Spurrier was a son of a bitch at Florida and I’ll hate him wherever he goes.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Damn. I actually laughed out loud at that.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
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by SouthAlaBamaRampage on Dec 2, 2009 8:38 PM EST reply actions
well illuse this anaolgy if you have a beautiful sheep but if you cover that sheep in shit it doesnt matter what the sheep looks like its covered in shit. The company can say what ever they want but ig they support people who are tied to the negetive aspects syombles of the brand then its kinda chaising your own ass.
From mr. SamAdkin's Fanpost:
To respond to those of you Outraged by this whole thing: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/12/2/1182858/joe-brammer-to-be-sponsored-by
First off I don’t see why all of you are making such a big deal. I doubt the majority of you are jewish, roma, or homosexual. If it was such a big deal to you guys why didn’t you all raise hell when Danzig or Cerrone wore their apparel?
I laughed when I read your comment because odds are if it was such a big deal to you , you would have done more than bitch about it on the internet.
The thing is fighters have to make money. I find it funny when ufc4 said, " I don’t care how important their sponsorship money is to Lyle or anyone else, I’d rather stand on the street and beg for money to feed my kids than take it from a company with even the slightest hint of neo-Nazi sympathies."
You know I kind of doubt you would. Talk is cheap. When you all try to put up a facade of your “morality” on the internet all you are doing is pissing on the people actually hurt by these events.
Well, Mr. Adkins, had I known others were wearing this brand back then, I would have raised a fuss. So there.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 2, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’m gonna agree with this guy and go ahead and say we probably never should have been involved in World War II.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
probably because his fanpost could have and should have been a comment in this post, dragging the argument to another post really doesn’t do anything.
yes.
and RearNakedChoker, look up a few comments higher. it’s better there. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 2, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
Better where? Sorry, i’m feeling a bit lost tonight. :(
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Dec 2, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Never mind. I get it now.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Dec 2, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Good point.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Dec 2, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ross Pearson is one fighter who has turned down HR sponsorship:
Hi guys, I am no longer sponsored by this company. The first I heard about them was two days ago when my manager asked me to pose for pictures with their tshirt on. I thought that the imagery was a but ‘funny’ so when I got back to my hotel I checked them out and I wasnt happy with being associated with them. I have now broken ties with them and will not be sponsored by them for this fight or any further fight.
This is not what I really want to be doing on fight day but I feel strongly about it and I woudn’t want my fans to think that I had let them down.
Ross ‘the real deal’ Pearson
by An0nymous on Dec 2, 2009 10:12 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
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