Why Is the UFC Rushing Prospects Like Phil Davis?
by Kid Nate on Dec 17, 2009 2:20 PM EST
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Mike Chiappetta has the story:
The UFC has captured the latest prized recruit, signing former four-time collegiate wrestling All-American and undefeated pro fighter Phil Davis to a multi-fight deal, according to his manager Chad Dubin.
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The ex-Penn State star, who won the 197-pound NCAA National Championship in 2008 and started his pro career months later, is 4-0 in his brief stretch as a pro, and has been considered one of the sport's true blue-chip prospects since his debut.
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Dubin told FanHouse that Davis expects to have a date for his first fight soon and will continue to fight at 205..."[He's] too small for heavyweight and could never make 185," Dubin said. "He walks around at 220-225 with 7-8 percent body fat."
There is definitely a buyer's seller's market for MMA talent right now. In years past the UFC would have waited longer to let Davis mature fighting on smaller shows. With Strikeforce and Bellator both making aggressive moves to sign young talent, the UFC is embarking on a course that will require them to do more of their own talent development.
The fate of Jake Rosholt, an comparably even more accomplished NCAA wrestler who was recently cut by the UFC after going 1-2 for the promotion, should be a warning to Davis, his management and the UFC. They've got to do a better job of developing hot prospects rather than just throwing young talent into the deep end.
Video of his 0:34 MMA debut is in the full entry.
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Awesome photo.
Did the ref wave him off before the fight was finished? Kind of a weird ending…dude fell in slow motion.
by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 17, 2009 2:26 PM EST reply actions
Got smoked with a left hook.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
I saw the punch..
what was weird to me was the ref asking dude if he was alright before finally waving it off. Almost had a boxing feel like he was going to let him stand back up if he was ok.
by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 17, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Here he is winning the 2008 NCAA title:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ZgnVcSSro
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
Agreed
The UFC needs to take it a bit slower with him than with Rosholt, who was given Miller, Leben and Grove right off the bat when he should have been fighting the Ryan Jensen and Nick Catone’s of the world.
I expect Davis to debut against someone like Razak Al-Hassan or Kyle Kingsbury.
Jake Rosholt got thrown to the wolves. Fights with Miller/Leben/Grove aren’t easy fights. But then again he had the option of being on TUF but declined. He would have been a top pick to win and then would have gotten the TUF treatment.
No. Rosholt was not thrown to the wolves. Paulo Thiago was/is.
Osterneck/Miller/Leben/Grove does not even compare to Koscheck/Fitch/Alves-Volkmann/Koscheck. None of Rosholt’s opponents are even on the Top 25 list BE just published.
Rosholt was winning the Grove fight until he made a series of mental mistakes and got triangled. He sloppily shot in on Miller and gifted him the guillotine. Rosholt had a series of very winnable fights and had Chuck Knoblauch syndrome or something.
Ribbit.
I’m not arguing that rosholt had a harder time than thiago, what I’m saying is that for someone who’s very green and only has 1 skill which is wrestling, fighting Dan Miller who is a beast, Leben who is a pretty good fighter, and Grove who is solid as long as you don’t have KO power, thats a tough go. He obviously would have benefited from fighting in smaller orgs and building his way up but as stated already, he wanted to fight names cause his contract had provisions that he had to fight on the tv card.
by Matthew Roth on Dec 17, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I believe Rosholt had passable enough standup to allow him to utilize his elite skill – wrestling/grappling – to get by all of those four I mentioned. It was mental mistakes, not a too quick development, that led to his losses. Plus he taps out ridiculously early.
The Miller fight would have been a truly interesting litmus test if it hadn’t ended so early. I believe he would have won it and still been given Grove or someone similarly tough to put away, yet not clearly better than Rosholt as well as being passable as a tv card fighter.
Ribbit.
mental mistakes
are a KEY symptom of rushed development.
If you’re still green enough to me making those kind of mental mistakes you should be in there with guys who aren’t so dangerous that it instantly costs you the fight
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That's an awful clause for the UFC.
And for an up-and-coming fighter. Also handcuffed Joe so Rosholt had to be matched with name or relatively known fighters. Is there a good reason why Jake was given that provision?
I think it was from his WEC contract. They obviously didn’t think the whole conversion over really thoroughly.
by MMAWrestling on Dec 17, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I saw Davis fight in Pittsburgh this year
He won in quick and decisive fashion. I ended up meeting him after his fight, his friends and girlfriend (VERY HOT) were sitting in my section of the arena. He was a really nice guy, very gracious about autograph requests.
Congrats Phil and good luck
Can you expound on this (I don’t follow NCAA wrestling)
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
I think it's an important distinction to make,
between what constitutes a quality wrestling career (clearly Rosholt is the man there) and what constitutes a superb wrestling background for MMA.
Just because you “never” won an NCAA championship doesn’t really mean that you’re not going to be one of the best wrestlers in MMA. It has to do with application of your skills. MMA wrestling is different from collegiate competitive wrestling.
Comparing their backgrounds for MMA, it’s literally impossible to declare which one has the better base. Comparing their competitive careers, yeah, Rosholt wins that one clearly.
The only significant difference in wrestling background is collegiate vs. greco-roman. GR guys are seriously better fits for MMA than are collegiate guys. To defend most takedown methods in collegiate wrestling, you basically need to learn a sprawl and whizzer. With those, you can defend the vast majority of takedowns displayed in your local high schools and colleges. Collegiate wrestlers attack the hips from below. GR wrestlers use body locks and clinches to upset their opponent’s stability, thereby gaining the takedown. GR wrestlers attack the hips from above.
Aside from those stylistic differences, I think if a guy is good enough to consistently compete at the top of the NCAA level, he’s got an excellent wrestling base for MMA. Titles become less important, but they obviously indicate that he was better than his peers in some way.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Rosholt is a cautionary tale, but not necessarily because Davis signed too early
Rosholt had provisions in his contract to air his fights on television, and I read numerous quotes back when he signed with the WEC that suggested he was not interested in fighting lower-tier competition. He, in effect, threw himself to the wolves. He actually performed admirably in the fights he ultimately lost, but I think the UFC saw the dangers in allowing him to continue going around-.500 and decided it’d be in everyone’s best interest to relinquish his high dollar contract.
Additionally, it remains to be seen how his situation will play out. Will he merely go to Canada for six months and hammer out 2-3 wins in the MFC so that he can get invited back? Or will he accept a deal with SF because he’s still not interested in graduating to a high level of competition and wants to have his record littered with name guys that he alternates wins/losses against?
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 17, 2009 2:43 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
You mean it’s a seller’s (fighter’s) market. There are more buyers (promotions) than sellers, relatively speaking.
by thekiltedwonder on Dec 17, 2009 3:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It would be great if Zuffa had an organization where young talent could develop while getting exposure while also not having to worry about being thrown to the wolves. An organization where veterans who have found themselves struggling could be given another chance, so that the UFC wouldn’t have to face the option of either cutting them or keeping them around while other, more deserving fighters are cut. How great would it be to see cards where guys like Jake Rosholt, Jacob Volkmann, and Phil Davis faced guys like Stephan Bonnar, Mac Danzig, Chris Leben, and Phil Baroni? Too bad the UFC doesn’t have a sister organization, struggling with their ratings, who could benefit from an influx of recognizable UFC fighters.
by John Nash on Dec 17, 2009 3:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well it is a good idea
it’s not gonna happen. For whatever reason the UFC is content to let the WEC be the “little brother” and dominate the lower weight classes.
Obviously nottheface is refering to the WEC.
It’s a shame they got rid of all the weight classes in the WEC that doubled with the UFC, that was the perfect way to sign a prospect and develop him. I actually remember seeing Rosholt fight in the WEC.
by polevaultking on Dec 17, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
I completely agree, in hindsight the WEC served a useful purpose. However, there is kind of a catch-22 situation occcuring. The UFC is having more events so needs more fighters, yet the turnover of fighters is increasing due to the lack of blooding young inexperienced guys like Rosholt because they need them fighting.
I can’t understand why the UFC can’t simply give Davis 4 or 5 fights in smaller organisations before he steps foot in the Octagon. Surely this is a good situation for smaller promotions, Davis and the UFC to let such fighters gain more experience. This way Bellator or Strikeforce cannot sign them, yet they still get blooded properly
The UFC has to sign young talent now
Like you said both Strikeforce and Bellator would pick these guys up in a minute and so the idea that you can let young talent develop outside and then still expect it to be there in a year or 2 is no more.
The UFC needs a Challengers like show. You can say fight nights but fight nights are not just filled with prospects. The UFC needs a place where they can get young prospects exposure and build them up through fights. And you might say the WEC but it doesnt look like that’s gonna happen either. They need a show exclusively for prospects like a Davis, Rosholt, and others.
The MMA Market
There is definitely a buyer’s market for MMA talent right now. In years past the UFC would have waited longer to let Davis mature fighting on smaller shows. With Strikeforce and Bellator both making aggressive moves to sign young talent, the UFC is embarking on a course that will require them to do more of their own talent development.
You’ve described a seller’s market.
Twitter @brettcjones
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Dec 17, 2009 3:09 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
they Probably feel the need to quickly grab hot prospects quickly after missing out on Tyrone Woodley.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 17, 2009 3:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Actually they had their shot at Woodley
He tried out for TUF and didnt make it on the show.
TUF recruiters suck
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 17, 2009 3:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know it’s amazing to me he didn’t make the cut for season 9 when you look at the talent that was on that season.
I’d like to hear from someone who made the call on not taking him to see exactly why he didn’t make it.
by scrambledeggs on Dec 17, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I know the story. Apparently when you try out for TUF, you have to do a BUNCH of camera interviews which weighs A LOT into who they cast. The MMA fighting aspect is only a portion of what they consider. Woodley is a religious, well mannered, nice guy. He was doomed from the get go, hence, he did not make it onto TUF because he didn’t have a Junie Brown personality.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 17, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Spike, I bet. They prob thought didn’t have charisma
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 17, 2009 3:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about it:
Phil Davis is black. He’s a great wrestler and has a 4-0 record, but it is a great asset that he’s black. The UFC wants to cater more to the African American demographic. I don’t think he should be compared to Rosholt as much as he should be to Houston Alexander (a fighter given a number of chances when it was clear he was never going to be anything but an Alessio Sakara clone) or Brad Blackburn (a fighter with a 12-9 record before being picked up by the UFC). This isn’t to say that black fighters are any better or worse at fighting, but they sure are more attractive to the UFC as prospects for the things they bring to the UFC besides their talent. The UFC wants to expand their demographic and not be perceived as a sport where white people go b/c they cannot box.
This goes for the same for Phillipinos, Mexican, and Japanese. The UFC wants to expand their audience and finding people the fans can identify with makes sense.
by HonorableJudgeIto on Dec 17, 2009 3:45 PM EST reply actions
I’m not gonna argue that didn’t play a role, but I’m not sure if I agree that is the whole reason. I say it’s a need to grab hot prospects quicker before Strikeforce and Bellator.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 17, 2009 3:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It definitely wasn’t the whole reason. Most importantly, he’s an amazing wrestler. I do believe, however, that this may have been the feather that put him over the edge.
by HonorableJudgeIto on Dec 17, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
i didn't see the elephant 'til you pointed it out
race hadn’t crossed my mind but it’d make sense to try to recruit all races… i’m sure it had more to do with his credentials and potential though. personally i feel diversity is great for mma.
by cagefightonacid on Dec 17, 2009 4:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think it’s even nearly applicable in this case and he is far more comparable to Rosholt than Houston/Blackburn in every sense. I did, however, think the UFC’s marketing department was really rooting for Big Baby to do well on TUF & against Meathead because they’re in need of a legit black-American heavyweight. With his size and jits, he could have been highly marketable if he had any striking to speak of.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Marcus' problem was his head.
That guy was all kinds of volatile. Seems like a pretty nice person, but it didn’t take much to flip him right the fuck out, and that’s not a good characteristic for an MMA fighter.
You can get away with it in football, less in basketball and you basically can’t get away with letting yourself freak out like that in baseball. I think MMA, due to the dynamic and necessarily reactive nature of the sport, is closer to baseball than anything else.
That said, if Marcus can get some inspirational leadership that takes root with him, all he’s got to do is learn a bit of head movement and some basic striking skills and he belongs in the MMA HW scene.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I think he was perfectly competent in the octagon, but his boxing is some of the worst I’ve ever seen in the UFC. He was leaning into strikes. I’ve never seen something so crazy.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
Its very difficult to teach people how to react to getting hit in the face. You can condition them somewhat, but some part of it is just your ability to fight a natural instinct. His instinct to getting hit in the face is to lean forward and clinch even if hes out of range.
Yeah
Thus my assessment that he’s just too old to unlearn that awful habit. It makes me very sad— I’ve been rooting for him. His jits, combined with his size and strength make him a unique fighter (who is extremely likable and marketable), but his striking will prevent him from ever making it (due to his advanced age). I really hope he’s not reliant on MMA to provide for his family presently, because he’s likely going to incur some serious brain damage if he has to keep taking fights with his chin hanging out like that.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
The only thing I'll say is
that boxing, in the MMA context, seems to be the easiest skill to develop from nothing to competence. At least it appears to take the least amount of time.
It’s obvious from his general composure physically that he’ll never be a world-class striker, but he should be able to learn enough about head movement, leg kicks and clinch-work to be extremely dangerous on the feet.
You’re right about the age, though. It’s the biggest factor against him.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Boxing competence
Depends on your definition, honestly. As someone who has trained boxing for years, I don’t see competent boxing in most mixed martial artists.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 17, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
making it easier for him to be competent in MMA-Boxing?
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying mixed martial artists are held to a lower standard? Because some of the fundamental mistakes that are made boxing in MMA are not so easily excusable. It’s partly attributable to the fact that a lot of gyms have Muay Thai coaches and not dedicated Western Boxing coaches, and not many fighters will go outside of their gym for that training.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 18, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Then take this tact;
MMA boxing has not progressed, as a whole, to the point where it takes years to become ‘MMA competent’ compared to the majority of upper-tier fighters. Better?
I understand there are nuances and aspects of classic boxing which aren’t even being sniffed at by the vast majority of MMA strikers, and I doubt that changes significantly in the near future. I think the ‘proper’ application of classic boxing technique is too detrimental to the application of a well-rounded MMA gameplan. The type of footwork for combinations, where to hold the hands, and even head movement must be modified for MMA, since to do otherwise is to handicap another area such as takedown defense, clinch defense, or kick defense.
The sport is nowhere near ‘done’ evolving, and I doubt it ever truly does stop doing so. But for now, to become a competent MMA boxer, it doesn’t take all that long.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Dec 19, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Honestly,Marcus is not as volatile as the show made him out to be. There was all kind of shit that was unaired that led to his resentment toward Mitrione.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 17, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, I'm not going to argue what did or didn't happen.
All I know is, out of all those guys, he’s the only one who we saw swing that wildly through the emotional spectrum over the course of the show.
They don’t call him Big Baby for no reason. That said, I loved the guy, and I still hope he can improve enough to be something in the HW division. Odds are long, but that man is seriously dangerous on the ground.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
may be too much too soon ...
… but i’ll hold off on making that assumption until they announce his first matchup. could be that they plan to bring him up really slow, the same way they would with TUF guys.
By signing these guys early for low cost
I’m guessing here…..but don’t the UFC essentially own them for video games and toys and whatever for the rest of their fight career?
Why do you hate Dana White?!
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
He won't call me back
and I will not be ignored.
TUF 11I
It’s middleweights right? Maybe Rosholt is giving that a second thought?
The UFC is doing what they always do....... seting up Win/Win situations....
Like with Rosholt, the UFC will let this guy fight whoever, and if he wins, great they have someone they can promote. If he loses and they cut him, he’s damaged goods. Now, Rosholt will go to Strikeforce or where ever and get a few quality wins, and in a few years he’ll come back to the UFC.
I wish they would slow down, but like the article says, there is alot of competition for talent now, and the UFC has to protect their marketshare, even at the expense of fighter’s careers. Then again, these fighters are making their own decisions, so it’s hard to put it on the UFC. Everyone here knows that Dana White told this kid or his manager "If you come to the UFC you are going to get tough fights.
by Dexerion on Dec 17, 2009 5:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think the answer here is in a replacement for TUF.
The UFC should have a weekly show filled with development fights. No reality show drama, just real pro fights under the UFC banner where guys can cut their teeth while being kept under contract without being thrown to the wolves.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
With Strikeforce and Bellator both making aggressive moves to sign young talent, the UFC is embarking on a course that will require them to do more of their own talent development.
I think you answered your own question. Sure, it’s not ideal for Phil Davis or Jake Rosholt to be thrown into the UFC fire right away. But Zuffa also can’t let all the top prospects end up with Bellator or Strikeforce.
It’s not ideal from a sporting sense, but it’s a smart business move by Zuffa.
omg...
Did you guys not see him drop his hands when he threw that leg kick. He’s got sooooo far to go…. i’m worried for his career being in the UFC
his debut. It’s likely (hopeful) that he’s already improved.
by some schmuck in texas on Dec 17, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Go watch some of Jon Jones' early fights.
Raw is about the best term for him.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Make the WEC a Feeder System Already!!!!!
This must be the most obviously good idea never followed up on in MMA history. The UFC would corner the game by employing almost all the top and up and coming talent. Plus then you can bring up the lighter weight classes to the UFC and have more headlining capable talent.
Its such an easy solution and so frustrating that it will probably never happen
I think Zuffa should move toward singing younger fighters..
then overseeing their development on the regional circuit, while stil having them signed for a specific amount of fights under the UFC brand. Kind of a reverse to them allowing fighters like Guillard, and Alexander to recover from a loss on the regional circuit…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
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