USAT/SBN December Consensus MMA Rankings: Bantamweight
by Luke Thomas on Dec 18, 2009 10:52 AM EST
in MMA Rankings
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Rankings compiled by Richard Wade.
| Rank | Fighter | % | Promotion | Last Rank |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Brian Bowles | 100 | WEC | 1 |
| 2 | Miguel Torres | 95 | WEC | 2 |
| 3 | Dominick Cruz | 85 | WEC | 3 |
| 4 | Masakatsu Ueda | 79 | Shooto | 4 |
| 5 | Takeya Mizugaki | 78 | WEC | 5 |
| 6 | Rani Yahya | 76 | WEC | 7 |
| 7 | Joseph Benavidez | 70 | WEC | 6 |
| 8 | Damacio Page | 63 | WEC | 9 |
| 9 | Akitoshi Tamura | 61 | WEC | 8 |
| 10 | Eddie Wineland | 34 | WEC | 12 |
| 11 | Will Ribeiro | 33 | WEC | 10 |
| 12 | Masakazu Imanari | 28 | DEEP | 11 |
| 13 | Antonio Banuelos | 28 | WEC | 14 |
| 14 | Scott Jorgensen | 28 | WEC | 13 |
| 15 | Jeff Curran | 24 | Strikeforce | 15 |
| 16 | Charlie Valencia | 23 | WEC | 16 |
| 17 | Frank Gomez | 21 | WEC | 41 |
| 18 | Yoshiro Maeda | 20 | DREAM | 18 |
| 19 | Koetsu Okazaki | 18 | Shooto | 17 |
| 19 | Atsushi Yamamoto | 18 | Shooto | 24 |
| 21 | Wilson Reis | 18 | Bellator | 22 |
| 22 | Daiki Hata | 17 | DREAM | 23 |
| 23 | Abel Cullum | 17 | DREAM | 20 |
| 24 | Eduardo Dantas | 17 | DEEP | 25 |
| 25 | Bibiano Fernandes | 16 | DREAM | 26 |
He may have broken his hand against Miguel Torres, but he's set to defend his title.
I'm talking, of course, of #1 Brian Bowles who still reigns over the bantamweight division after defeating # 2 Miguel Torres at WEC 42. The WEC has finally announced his next fight, which will be against contender and former featherweight #3 Dominick Cruz at WEC 47 on March 6th in Columbus, Ohio. Like Josh Barnett prior to his ill-fated fight with Fedor Emelianenko, Cruz is enjoying a nice bump in the rankings due to his contender status.
Shooto's Featherweight standout #4 Masakatsu Ueda is still undefeated and and still holding the fourth spot after a unanimous decision win over BJJ ace #24 Eduardo Dantas at "Revolutionary Exchanges". According to Sherdog.com's Jordan Breen, we still have no word on when Ueda will fight next
#5 Takeya Mizugaki stays in the fifth position as he is set to take on #14 Scott Jorgensen as part of the feature card of WEC 45 this weekend.
#6 Rani Yahya trades places with now #7Joseph Benavidez. The two are set to tangle for bantamweight supremacy also this weekend at WEC 45 in Las Vegas.
#8 Damacio Page was all set to take on Mizugaki this weekend at WEC 45, but was forced to withdraw from the bout due to injury. No word yet on when "The Angel of Death" will return to the blue cage.
#9 Akitoshi Tamura continues to drop in the rankings from inactivity, but is finally back on track. The Japanese import will lock horns with #16 Charlie Valencia at WEC 46 in January.
#10 Eddie Wineland finally gets back into the top ten and is still on a high after defeating Manny Tapia at WEC 43. The former champion returns to action at WEC 46 in January where he'll face another Brazilian member of American Top Team in Rafael Rebello.
The badly injured #11 Will Ribeiro remains in the top fifteen of the division despite suffering what are likely to be career-ending injuries. He hasn't fought since
Strangely, former #19 Mark Oshiro drops completely out of the rankings despite not losing in the time since the previous rankings while Ribeiro is perched tightly to the top ten (or close to it) despite not competing due to what are likely to be career-ending injuries.
Based on the premise that all MMA rankings are subjective but that it’s still useful and informative to know who the online MMA community as a whole ranks as the best fighters in MMA, we collect and average the rankings of the top MMA websites to produce our consensus rankings.
We compile the top MMA rankings from each of our sources and award 25 points for a first place ranking, 16 for a 10th place ranking, 1 for a 25th place ranking. A formula is used to "normalize" the data so all fighters are awarded points from those lists that do not include a full 25 fighters. This formula ensures that each ranking site awards the same number of total points regardless of how many fighters they choose to rank. Each fighter’s total is divided by the number of possible points to determine their standing in the Consensus Rankings.
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Has Abel Cullum signed with WEC, or it’s just a mistake here?
http://www.mmarocks.pl
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I was coming here to type just this
Found that surprising.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 18, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Damn it
I was hoping he had. Oh well..
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
You’re a mistake.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 18, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Takeya Mizugaki at #5 seems like one of those “he looked great losing to a top guy” rankings.
Jeff Curran in the top 15, when his only two BW wins are over 17-14 Dustin Neace and Tomohiko Hori, seems like reputation-based ranking.
Curran, I get
Even though he’s mega-talented and loses to good fighters, but Takeya deserves his ranking for his showing against Miguel as well as his win over the aforementioned Curran. Though, Bantam is a bit muddled due to the depth of the top of the division (I’d love to see almost any of the top 10, and beyond, against one another) and the fact that most of the best fighters are facing one another in the WEC’s highly esteemed division.
Personally, I think Cruz is due to take a dip after the Bowles fight. I don’t think he can beat a few of those top ranked bantams.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
See, I don’t think anyone should be ranked highly on the basis of a loss. If you lose, your ranking shouldn’t improve. Anybody can lose to Miguel Torres. If your showing indicates that you’re a good fighter, that will be borne out in subsequent victories. But until then, you don’t move.
Plus, when Mizugaki beat Curran, Curran was 0-1 at BW, i.e. unranked.
I’m amused by your stance that there is only one right way to rank fighters.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 18, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think there’s only one right way to do it, but I do think there are reasonable and unreasonable ways. Shooting people up the rankings based on losses and wins over unranked fighters is not reasonable, IMO.
If you’re claiming to be ranking based on in-ring accomplishments, that is. If you’re going on abstract judgments of fighter skill, then anything goes.
Well, there's a lot of ways to do this. You're well aware, obviously.
Power rankings, computer models, arbitrary “Yeah, that dude looked good last time” placement…
That said, I disagree with both the method and results of your MMA math fueled rankings. Not meant to knock or bash you, I personally don’t agree with your rationale and feel the results from it are sketchy.
I'm simplifying, obviously.
But your formula is very much based on leapfrogging, which boils down into MMA Math (A beats B and goes above, C beats A and tops him, C > A > B). I haven’t monitored your rankings over time, just seen them recently, and I don’t feel they hold up even to an immanent critique.
Jardine should have leapfrogged Chuck when he beat him. Then Wand destroyed Jardine. Then Chuck decisioned Wand. Since then, Jardine won a fight and lost two while Chuck has only lost two, and the losses were to comparably ranked competition. Wand lost two in a row since the circle described, sharing a loss to Rampage with Jardine and a loss to an unranked (or lower that Thiago Silva) Rich Franklin. Somehow, with them all being placed 8-10 after they fought each other, and Jardine being the only one with one win since then and the best ranked losses, he ends up 13 with Wand at 9 and Chuck at 7.
Can you explain that? At face value, I’d assume it’s reputation and history based, but you have your guidelines which are meant to counteract that. I’d like to know your rationale.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
You’ve got the timeline wrong: it was Jardine/Liddell, then Liddell/Wanderlei, then Jardine/Wanderlei. But the upshot is the same: we end up with Liddell > Wanderlei > Jardine. I take it you don’t object to that, in this case at least.
One thing to get out of the way is that I don’t count fights at the no-man’s-land catchweight of 195 as LHW bouts. So Wand losing to Franklin at that weight doesn’t hurt him here.
After every relevant fight, I consider a fighter’s new ranking (if they move) in the context of their record in the past three years, with more recent fights weighted a little more heavily. You’re right that Jardine’s and Liddell’s losses have been to comparably ranked competition, but their prior records affect if and how they slide.
Jardine has the Liddell win going for him, and the Alexander loss going against him. Liddell has the Jardine loss, which came immediately after the Alexander fight, going against him (though if you think about it, Jardine post-Alexander is still higher ranked than Alexander pre-Jardine, if that makes sense), but a lot more going for him: wins over Wanderlei, Couture, and Babalu, for example. Jardine’s next best win was either Forrest Griffin, at a time when Griffin’s biggest win was still Stephan Bonnar, or Brandon Vera, when Vera only had Reese Andy on his LHW resume.
So when Jardine loses to post-Liddell Wanderlei Silva (who I then had below Jardine himself), and then to Thiago Silva, he slides more than Liddell does after losing to Evans and Rua.
Factor in Henderson returning to LHW against Franklin and getting slotted above Jardine, and Rogerio returning to the top 10, and Jardine gets bumped down even more.
Generally speaking, I think a leapfrogging approach makes the most sense in terms of simplicity, transparency, and common sense. I object a little to its being called “MMA math,” since I think my method is a little more flexible than that. For example, Thales Leites beat Nate Mardquardt, and Alessio Sakara beat Leites, but I sure don’t have Sakara above Marquardt (nor did I before Marquardt beat Demian Maia, but I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it).
You are correct.
Pardon me, I did get the time line wrong, but I still believe the rankings do not appropriately reflect their accomplishments in a subjective sense or by your guidelines. Jardine is Wanderlei’s only win at LHW within your three year period (I do like that cut off point, it’s my general reference for relevancy of fights as well) while Jardine has beaten Forrest, Chuck, and Vera. Chuck’s wins over Couture and Babalu fall outside of the P3Y period, giving him Ws over only Tito and Wanderlei.
Also at LHW: Sokoudjou over Sobral? Babalu just beat him before they both lost to Mousasi. He should have leapfrogged him, right? Do the Arona/Rogerio KOs inflate Soko beyond that, even though they happened earlier?
I also apologize for any offense taken by my use of the term MMA math. I personally find leapfrogging and MMAth to be similar functions. I also don’t think Megan Fox is hot, so my opinion clearly isn’t representative of any greater community. I like to discuss ranking systems and results, as futile as they always are, with anybody willing to carry on a civil discourse. Your thoughtfulness and respectful response to critique is admirable, and anybody who takes the time to create a ranking and is willing to stand by them and discuss it earns my respect.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Rats, you’re right, they were of no use when he lost to Evans and Rua. When I refer to the Couture, Babalu et. al. fights I should be referring to them in the context of Liddell’s loss to Jardine. They were in play then, and prevented him from sliding too much after those losses.
Still, I stand by my placements, and here’s why:
Jardine has beaten Forrest, Chuck, and Vera
Pre-Shogun Forrest and Vera are both pretty minor wins, and Tito was obviously a better win than Forrest at the time. Chuck is the really good one there, but I think it’s equaled, or nearly so, by Chuck’s win over Wanderlei. Add in Jardine’s loss to that same Wanderlei, and the other phenomena I’ve mentioned (Henderson and Nogeuira), and there you have it.
In retrospect, it might have been a better idea to slot Henderson above Liddell when he came back into competition. I did think a lot about that one, and maybe I came to the wrong decision. But that’s a pretty minor mistake.
Also at LHW: Sokoudjou over Sobral? Babalu just beat him before they both lost to Mousasi. He should have leapfrogged him, right? Do the Arona/Rogerio KOs inflate Soko beyond that, even though they happened earlier?
Sobral lost to Mousasi when Mousasi was unranked at LHW; losing to an unranked fighter is pretty bad. Sokoudjou lost to Mousasi when Mousasi had already entered the top 15 by beating Sobral; that loss isn’t so bad. It was Sokoudjou’s consecutive wins over top 10 LHWs that had him hanging in the top 15 in the first place though, yeah.
Wait a sec...
That means you’re still giving Chuck credit for wins outside of the three year window by keeping him in place. You essentially have a built in legacy/reputation feature by allowing veterans to maintain ranks based on old wins. To stick with your time restriction, you would have to reconsider each fighter by their 3 year window as older fights ‘expire,’ would you not?
The Babalu/Sokoudjou thing doesn’t make sense with the timeline. Soko had already lost to then unranked Luiz Cane. Immediately after that, he lost to Babalu. That would make Babalu jump him. Then, in each of their next LHW fights, they lost to Mousasi. I guess you give Soko more credit since Gegard was higher ranked against him than vs. Babalu, but how did Soko move above the last guy who beat him without winning any fights in between? Did you move him up based on a loss?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
That means you’re still giving Chuck credit for wins outside of the three year window by keeping him in place. You essentially have a built in legacy/reputation feature by allowing veterans to maintain ranks based on old wins. To stick with your time restriction, you would have to reconsider each fighter by their 3 year window as older fights ‘expire,’ would you not?
I would, and I did. I acknowledge that I made a mistake in the course of this conversation, but I didn’t actually count the Couture, Babalu, etc. fights in Liddell’s favor when considering where to drop him after his more recent losses.
As I explained above, he was mainly kept afloat by having beaten Wanderlei for those (I didn’t feel I could drop him below Wand, and I didn’t feel I could drop Wand below Jardine, so…). The Couture et. al. wins kept him afloat after he lost to Jardine, not Evans and Rua. That’s where I goofed up earlier.
I guess you give Soko more credit since Gegard was higher ranked against him than vs. Babalu
Right.
but how did Soko move above the last guy who beat him without winning any fights in between? Did you move him up based on a loss?
I dropped Babalu below Sokoudjou when Babalu lost to unranked Mousasi. Like I said, losing to an unranked fighter is bad, even if they happen to have a reputation from competing in another weight class. (If I were just using MMA math, of course, Babalu would still be above Sokoudjou, but I don’t.)
That sort of thing is a judgment call for sure, but hey, I never claimed to be infallibly objective or anything,
Alright, fair enough.
I respect that you created a your own unique system of ranking MMA fighters. I, however, disagree with it. Want to bro-hug and leave it at that?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
This section is getting mighty narrow
and we’re discussing LHW under bantamweight. If you don’t mind moving the conversation, I just posted my list on the LHW rankings page with the title ATTN: JRN.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/12/16/1201004/usat-sbn-december-mma-consensus
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
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