Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Isn't Up To Speed On Jeremy Lin, 'Linning'

Strikeforce Evolution Preview: Bloody Elbow Judo Chop: The San Shou Take Downs of Cung Le

Photo via Sherdog

Cung Le is a very controversial figure with MMA fans. Judging by the comments here and at Sherdog and the UG, he's not that well liked. Some of the hate is understandable. He has definitely put his MMA career on the back burner for the past couple of years to focus on a burgeoning b-movie career. He did it to the point that Strikeforce had to strip him of his middleweight title.

But a lot of the hate is less well founded and seems to come from a misunderstanding of Cung Le and the style he brings to MMA. I frequently read commenters saying things like, "if he fights a wrestler he's going to get put on his back in a hurry" or "that fight was fake, (insert name of Cung opponent here) didn't even try to take him down."

Here's the problem with that, Cung Le is really really good at take downs and take down defense. Not only does he have a decent amateur wrestling background, but he competed in San Shou for many years. And that's the thing about San Shou, not only does it focus on striking -- especially the fancy kicks Le is famous for -- it also focuses on take downs, more specifically throws.

Here's a little bit about the rules of San Shou when practiced as a competitive sport:

As a sport, San Shou/San Da is practiced in tournaments and is normally held alongside taolu events in wushu competition. For safety reasons, some techniques from the self-defense form such as elbow strikes, chokes, and joint locks, are not allowed during tournaments. Competitors can win by knockout or points which are earned by landing strikes to the body or head, throwing an opponent, or when competition is held on a raised lei tai platform, pushing them off the platform. Fighters are only allowed to clinch for a few seconds. If the clinch is not broken by the fighters, and if neither succeeds in throwing his opponent within the time limit, the referee will break the clinch.

As you can see, this rule set is not inclined to favor fighters who have poor take down defense. Cung Le went 17-0 in San Shou competition.

In the full entry we look at nearly a half-dozen sweet throws that Cung Le busted out on Sam Morgan at Strikeforce in November, 2007.

Strikeforce Evolution

Star-divide

Cung1_mediumUp first, on the right we see Morgan and Le tie up in a classic wrestling position -- both men have "over-under" grips on the other (meaning one arm is hooked under the arm pit of the opponent and the other arm is hooked over the arm of the opponent.) Le twists to his left, steps across with his right leg and sweeps Morgan's right foot out from under him. 

In Judo parlance I believe this is most similar to a Osoto Gari but judo players please correct me in the comments if I'm off. Note that Le comes down in Morgan's guard. Le generally lands in better position as we'll see in the other gifs below. But one thing won't change -- Le doesn't have the ground game to do anything with a good position when he gets it.

Cung2_mediumHere on the left, Morgan is pushing Le up against the cage and this time he has double unders, meaning both of his arms are hooked under Le's armpits. In wrestling, having double underhooks is usually an advantageous position. But as we see here, not always. Le uses his right arm which is hooked over Morgan's left arm in a whizzer position to set up this beautiful hip toss. He turns to his left and when Morgan drives forward he pulls up with the whizzer, pushes down with his left arm and uses his hip as a fulcrum to send Morgan first airborne then crashing to the mat.

Cung3_mediumI couldn't resist including this lovely and very very hurtful side kick we see on the right. Le just flat out kicks like a mule. At the range he's attacking from and the speed he's attacking, that kick just murders and you'd have to walk through the kick to get the take down while he's standing on one leg. This is a technique I expect to see a great deal more of in MMA in the future.

Cung4_mediumOk, back to the throws. At this point, Morgan is pretty dazed and confused and it swinging wildly, desperately trying to score with something, anything. That's not a good position to be in in a professional fight and Le is quick to capitalize.

Morgan wings a wild looping overhand right and Le ducks it and quickly gets the clinch. He's got over-unders again and it's Osoto Gari time but now Morgan isn't able to react and blunt the impact and he lands hard on his back and Le is in side control. Le doesn't do anything from here, but I have a feeling that somewhere out there is a teenage kid who's already trained in San Shou for a few years but he's seen enough MMA that as soon as a BJJ gym opens up in Shanghai he's going to join. That kid will be a handful.

Cung5_mediumOn the right we've got another hip toss but this time Le struggles a little bit and you can really see him using the whizzer he's got with his right arm to finish the throw and drive Morgan to his back. It looks like Morgan was fairly close to getting the better of this exchange and ending up on Le's back, but Le's wrestling background served him well and he gutted it out.

Cung6_medium This last one is really lovely. Morgan shoots in, gets double unders and Le has to sprawl backwards 3/4 of the way across the cage with his wrists locked together to lock in the double overhooks he's using to keep Morgan from locking his own hands together behind Le's back.

But then he spins around, gives up his double over hooks and gets an over under grip and tosses Morgan hard to the canvas. Nice!

 

The moral of the story: taking down Cung Le is going to be easier said than done.

As always, these Judo Chops are a vehicle for furthering my own MMA education so those of you who are more knowledgeable (especially in Judo, wrestling or San Shou/Sanda) please speak up in the comments and correct my errors.

Comment 122 comments  |  6 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Watch some of Cung Le’s San-Shou matches, they are very entertaining. Especially the ways he takes down his opponents.

by grein on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

He does this awesome scissor leg kick takedown that I remember seeing. I don’t think he’s used it in an MMA match though….probably wouldn’t be as effective.

by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 15, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

others have used the scissor takedown in MMA

even if Cung hasn’t. Most notably Ryo Chonan who caught Anderson Silva with one and went straight to a heel hook for the tapout win.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's Cung breaking down the scissors take down for Black Belt Magazine

Flying-scissor-kick takedown: Cung Le (right) distracts his adversary with a mid-level side kick (1-2). When he chambers his leg for what appears to be another such technique, the opponent reacts the same way (3-4). Le then leaps forward, placing his right leg in front of the man’s abdomen and his left leg behind his thighs (5). As he drops, he forces his foe to fall backward (6). (Photos by Rick Hustead)

BlackBelt

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool, thanks.

Looks like the hard part is going from 4 to 5. And getting enough force to actually drop the opponent.

Seems like the guy getting taken down could easily get top position if Le isn’t fast enough. But I suppose it’d be suprising enough getting taken down like that. It also looks like he gets a hold of that arm, so maybe that helps. Interesting stuff.

by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 15, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with resisting the flying scissors (and the reason that Kane Basami now illegal in judo and bjj competitions) is that by planting your feet you have a high risk of getting your ankle broken.

Most half-assed flying-scissors throws tends to land lower on the legs. Look at the photos and imagine Cung’s right leg on the opponent’s upper leg, and imagine Cung’s left leg kicking into the oppents calf. That kick into the back of the calf (when combined with the backwards force and an opponent planting his feet to resist) is enough to break ankles.

It happened to Yamashita in the 1980 Japan Open—kind of a gross video to watch but here it is: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4yuhq_yasuhiro-yamashita-jpn-sumio-endo-j_sport

I had some dickhead do a sloppy one to me in randori and my ankle sprained instantly. I had no idea how to defend and just tried staying on my feet—crackle, pop, see you in six weeks guys.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, you can actually hear the crunch. That was nasty. So basically the best (or safest) thing to do is just let yourself be taken down?

by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 15, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

…the safest at that moment, though you might suffer for it later.

I dont know anything about the MMA stance or striking, but I’d assume you wouldn’t turn as sideways to your opponent as we do in Judo. Its probably also harder to get a KB off when your opponent is playing the range game and darting in and out.

Chonan got a one-legged kane basami on Silva right before his famous heel hook, but he had been chopping away at that leg the whole match and it was kinda just hanging there for the taking.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Is the best way to defend it...

just to fall back along with the opponent?

*man that was gross… the ankle just broke in a second

You have to beat the legend, in order to become the LEGEND
-Melvin Manhoef (after his destruction of Sakuraba)

by chopstickthugz on Dec 15, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I really have no idea.

A traditonal Judoka might tell you to take the fall and take the loss. An Olympic Judoka will tell you the move is illegal so why bother learning a defense.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

In BJJ about 5 weeks ago

I had a similar injury – not from a scissor takedown but a simple leg-behind sweep. The result was the same – ankle gave way and it popped.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 15, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

do you have the really thick soft mats, or proper tatame?

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

hmm. bad luck or partner maybe.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 16, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Mostly bad luck – a little bit on him. He is a super nice guy, but built like a bowling ball. About 5’9" and 200 lbs of solid blue belt muscle. I guess when he first started he hurt people quite a few times because he was so strong and explosive but lacked nuance or technique.

That being said, this instance was pretty much bad luck. We both went for the sweep at the same time but he beat me to it.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 18, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Come back to me when the guy has accomplished something in mma!

by pwdminotauro on Dec 15, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But, but

He beat a living “legend” in Shamrock and a bunch of the UFC rejects.

by MickDawg on Dec 15, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

His style is unique

That’s what made Cung Le so much fun to watch. But I guess MMA to you is only wrestling and jiu-jitsu coupled with which big names a fighter has fought.

by 831 Son on Dec 15, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

/\ this

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

To quote Mir: You’re talking about him, but he’s never heard of you.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

a straight kick that you have to move through to get a takedown...

now that just makes sense to me… but surely there must be a good reason why we don’t see it.

excellent write up once again.

by ruckus on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

it's not a straight kick

it’s a side kick. Note how Le turns and is completely perpendicular to Morgan when he throws the kick. A straight kick is much less powerful than a side kick.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct

I love the sidekick and I’m wondering why I don’t see more of it (probably if you’re not quick enough your stance could be compromised) because all that power is from his hips; when you pull up your leg and push it our you lock your hips (with a little help from your standing leg) and it creates a great amount of force.

"I call this here Clark Kent. Just sniff this, right here. It’s good, huh?! You smoke this s**t and you just wanna rip your clothes off in a phone booth and fight crime"

by TheKCB on Dec 15, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

most MMA fighters come from a Muay Thai background

and the stance they use doesn’t make for great side kicks.
That’s the best explanation I’ve heard anyway.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve seen side kicks used a bit in mma just no fighters using them consistently with a few exceptions. I think your right about the muay thai stance, most fighters favor a front kick or foot jab which is faster but almost exclusively a defensive kick(Seen Ken-Flo using it recently). The side kick is a hard kick to throw out really fast and avoid being taken down that also could be a factor.

by mr. gogoplata on Dec 15, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Very true about side kicks, as for front kicks its really only the last few years we have even seen them used more and more in MMA. The best use of the Front kick of the top of my head was Josh Thompson vs Gilbert Melendez 1 and in womens MMA Gina Carono Vs Kaitlyn Young. It might only be a matter of time before the side kick creeps its way more & more also into MMA as a used weapon and not just the odd move.

by Shocbomb on Dec 15, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

what the hell is hendo’s jaw doing?!

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

it kinda looks like silvas foot actually goes in his mouth

by phantasma475 on Dec 15, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There are side kicks in MT (although not many fighters use it…), but in MMA we see poor man’s kickboxing not Muay Thai.

by dancingChicken on Dec 15, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I reemmber Tim Boetsch using such a kick very well against David Heath, though not sure of the technical name for it

by StevenGiles on Dec 15, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes Boetsch used a great front kick against Heath. It few that got in actually hurt Heath pretty Bad

by Shocbomb on Dec 16, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

All these highlights from one fight..

Say what you want about him but you can’t deny he’s an exciting fighter. I’m excited for Saturday – 2 awesome events. Now which one do I DVR?

by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 15, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

San Shou is great

I fought San Shou for awhile (trained in Boston with Jason Ye, who Le fought on PPV like 10 years ago…) and I think that there’s a lot of San Shou techniques that Le does that I’m really surprised that haven’t caught on with more MMA fighters.

The side kick is hard and it makes me laugh when you see these pro MMA guys throw a one from a horrible position. It’s almost always sloppy from bad position, and with no power. I particularly remember Josh Koscheck looking really stupid. Anyway, the difference why Le can use them powerfully is that the San Shou stance is much wider than muay thai. Also, the SS round kicks are way different from standard MT in that you’re not supposed to get up on the balls of your bottom foot, or throw your whole body behind it like you do in MT.

However, what I really wish you showed was the amazing kick catches and throws that Le does. The one he did on Shamrock’s front kick was particularly impressive and clean. This is pretty standard in SS, and the technique here is way different from MT. In MT when you’re going to catch a kick you normally let it hit your ribs, and then wrap your arm around it (forrest vs evans, Gonzaga vs cro cop). In SS there is a whole system of trapping kicks via blocking them with arms. Le is particularly amazing at this… there’s a bunch of vids I found on you tube that I’m now too lazy to find again…

by Ben Lebovitz on Dec 15, 2009 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

i meant...

that the sidekick is hard to learn how to throw correctly. It’s a werid balance that needs to be practiced way more than a round kick to get any kind of power with.

by Ben Lebovitz on Dec 15, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome..

I love how he just walks away all nonchalantly. Looking forward to the next Judo Chop.

by HappyLittleTreez on Dec 15, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

seen it before

will see it again and will rec every damn time.

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Dec 15, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Two things at once

Note the two things Le is doing simultaneously. He is not only kicking out Shamrock’s legs but giving a hard shove in the opposite direction to Shamrock’s upper chest.

by zanelewis on Dec 15, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of people rag on that fight, because of all the fist pumping and touching that went on in the first two rounds. But after that moment right there the fight got awesome. As you can see the look on Shamrock’s face and then he goes ape, and Le returns making for an awesome third round.

Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.

I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.

by Sam Cupitt on Dec 17, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

taking down Cung Le is going to be easier said than done

Actually, after looking at all these examples, taking Cung Le down looks like it would be easy. The only problem is he’s going to be on top of you.

by John Nash on Dec 15, 2009 1:08 PM EST reply actions  

lol

so true!

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

This is really interesting. Im still fairly new to MMA, so I love all the Judo Chops. They really help me appreciate it more.

"He will lie between resentment and regret. He shed his grace. As certain as a snake sheds its skin. Laid waste to a wealth of talent--his curse being blessed with treasures that just were not gold enough"

by ProfessorBLove on Dec 15, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

thanks

My most enduring love for the sport comes from all the different technical possibilities so I love sharing what I’ve noticed.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

GREAT JUDO CHOP!

I have been watching MMA since the first UFC and have also trained quite a bit, but I still get a lot of knowledge from you and these Judo chops! I look forward to the next one! Thanks

by SHOGUNROBBERY on Dec 15, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

much appreciated

glad to hear it. Sometimes I feel like anyone who knows anything is just laughing at my naive attempts.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed...

Plenty of material to choose from focusing on Cung. Very enjoyable Judo Chop.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 15, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't hate Cung Le

But I also don’t see a lot to get excited about. I don’t mean that he isn’t skilled or interesting – just that he’s 37, has 6 fights, and the best of those was against an old broken down Frank Shamrock.

Can anyone imagine the hurt that would get put on him in the UFC MW division?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 15, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions  

oh for sure

Cung’s interesting to me more as a conceptual pioneer than as a fighter.
He’s also grossly undersized as a MW. He cuts no weight and walks in at 182/183. He could easily fight at WW in the UFC.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

And also get smooshed there.

He brings some interesting GIFs to the table, and he’s fun to watch, but he’ll always be a side-show to me.

Conversely, I don’t get as upset about him not defending his belt since I’d rather see other people fight anyway. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 15, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

He's a side show

that is showing us the future of MMA.
Do the math on China. With their increasing wealth and population numbers, MMA is going to be dealing with an influx of Chinese talent sooner or later and many of them will be coming from a San Shou/Sanda background.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

If i was a fighter now i would take some time between fights to go train some of this stuff. I think alot of the problems that fighters have with Cung is that they dont know how to deal with his skill set.

by Riley_96 on Dec 15, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There are plenty of Indians and India is growing faster than China – why isn’t Pehlwani the future of MMA, of great sage? :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 15, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

per capita India is much much poorer

and Pehlwani has been allowed to atrophy where as Sanda/SanShou is the official martial art of the People’s Republican Army, meaning millions of young Chinese men train seriously at it for years.
Much like Sambo benefits greatly from so many Russian soliders being trained in it.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

No offense to any indians but the martial arts are ingrained in Chinese culture. The Chinese would argue all martial arts originated in China and Kung Fu definitely became world famous via the Chinese application to movies ala Bruce Lee.

China will become a force on the world MMA stage 10 or 15 years down the line. Not just fighters but also from a business perspective. That market is dying for some MMA. See Art of War (Chinese version).

by rainmaker6 on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

ah the Indian tradition

of wrestling is one of the world’s greatest. Also there is some evidence that the Chinese martial arts originally came from India, as did much of the Chinese spiritual tradition.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

this

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

What was the indian monk's name?

Boli Dharma? Bolo Dharma? The guy who supposedly taught the Chinese monks Kung Fu?

Also, the Indians taught us how to yank out hearts while saying Om Nom Shivari.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 15, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I will add

See The “Great” Gama for an example.

by John Nash on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Poorer doesn't mean much in combat sports

There are poor sports and rich sports: you have to start out relatively rich if you want to be a great polo, tennis or golf player. But basketball, soccer and fighting don’t require a lot of equipment or investment to get good.

Heck, look at your average MMA fighter – how many qualify as country boys from single family homes?

As for the military aspects: eh. China has a large standing army, but the PLA is big not because those kids are gung-ho to fight but because so much of China is poor. (See the lack of industry and employment in the American south.) And Sambo hasn’t exactly set the world of MMA on fire outside of one guy, so let’s not put to much emphasis on that.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 16, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Poor and rich means a great deal when it is a matter of there being any interest in MMA in the country in question. India is dirt fucking poor — much poorer than China. China is already seeing local MMA meet with success. India is years away from that.

Its not about gung ho, its about sheer numbers of the millions and millions of Chinese youth who serve in the military a good number will be athletically gifted and will master San Shou. That means we’ll be seeing that style showing up a great deal in the future as more Chinese athletes participate.

Sambo made a big impact on MMA in the 1990s — Volk Han, Oleg Taktarov, Mikhail Illioukhine and Igor Zinoviev all did very well back in the day. Fedor has been an outlier mostly because you haven’t seen Russians coming to the West in the 2000s like you did in the 1990s. And Fedor is always going to be an outlier.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 16, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Since I kinda responded to part of that below, I’m just going to take on the Sambo thing:

Four guys? Five? Versus how many wrestlers? BJJ Players? Muay Thai fighters? Eh.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 17, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Does it matter either way. 10% of 1.5 billion Chinese is 150 mil. 5% of 1.5 billion Indians is 75 million. Either way that is a lot of potential talent in both nations.

by John Nash on Dec 15, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying big things won't come out of India

I just see them coming out of China first.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 16, 2009 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought I was replying to Jermaleddin’s comment.

by John Nash on Dec 16, 2009 3:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

But you were kinda contradicting Kid Nate’s comment, not mine.

My larger point is: we don’t know the future of MMA, and the surefire way to get it wrong is to base your prediction on the success of one guy who has only beaten one fighter of any consequence – and that was YEARS after Frank was remotely relevant.

And look: even if he did get some legitimate success (tick, tick, tick, old man), there’s no way of knowing that what works for him will work for anyone else (see: Machida, Lyoto). The amazing thing about BJJ, for instance, is that it works for so many people. Ditto wrestling and muay thai. Heck, as long as everyone agrees not to kick or go for takedowns, boxing is fantastic.

Cung has some entertaining and flashy moves, but we have no idea how effective they are because he’s never faced top competition. And since he cares more about not getting his face busted up and continuing his movie career than he does about fighting the best in the world, we’ll never know.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 16, 2009 6:33 AM EST up reply actions  

you're totally missing my point

I’m saying San Shou will be a big part of the future of MMA because it’s the national martial art of the biggest country that is entering MMA right now. Just as we saw a big influx of Judo players in MMA when the sport became big in Japan and South Korea, we’ll see a big influx of San Shou players as the sport becomes bigger in China.
And San Shou has a big edge over Judo or Sambo or BJJ or Catch Wrestling in that it’s already a 2 aspect discipline — striking and takedowns — rather than just a one aspect discipline.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 16, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

But being popular doesn’t necessarily make it effective. Millions of people thumb wrestle every day, but you don’t see much impact on MMA from it. :-)

More seriously, how many people around the world train Taekwondo? How does that work out for them in MMA?

(Like this: http://best.complex.com/lists/50-Greatest-MMA-Dominations/travis-fulton-vs-jeremy-bullock )

And takedowns that don’t lead to ground action don’t count for much – as evidenced by Cung’s terrible ground game.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 17, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

(Also: Where did that R come from?)

:-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 16, 2009 6:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Cung Le vs Marius Zaromskis!

by TLow on Dec 15, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

head exploding!

that is an awesome matchup
bet you anything Cung Le ducks it

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

He really shouldn’t, that’s a very winnable fight for him.

by JRN on Dec 15, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again...Sanshou

Don’t read too much into Cung Le’s success in MMA. He’s heads and shoulders above most Sanshou fighters worldwide. Only thing about some of SS takedowns is they dont lead into anything. Once you throw your opponent, you standup and reset. The last place a SS fighters wants to be is on the ground. I wont go into detail why China created SS, but suffice to say the reason is very political. Main reason why Cung Le is in MMA is partly to do with SS shortcomings (skill-wise and promotional).

by Akorn on Dec 15, 2009 1:51 PM EST reply actions  

a good background in San Shou

just needs to add some serious jiu jitsu training to have a very complete fighter.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn’t you have said the same of GSP’s Kyokushin Karate?

by mr. gogoplata on Dec 15, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

not really

Kyokushin doesn’t include takedowns. And GSP’s standup is only about 20 or 30% based on kyokushin anyway. GSP is more of an MMA fighter than anything else.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

judo corrections

the first throw you labeled as osto-gari is more like osoto-gake. instead of a reap, it’s more of a trip.

the second throw labeled as osoto is more of an ashi-guruma.

but great chop regardless!

by dr. ransom on Dec 15, 2009 2:07 PM EST reply actions  

  1. gif—gari, gake, hard to tell.
    #2. Looks like an Uchi Mata. Look at the attacking hip and leg, He straightens his leg and throws it in between his opponents legs to pop their hips up with his butt.
    #3. Awesome.
    #4. Hard to tell. Elements of Osoto Gari, Harai Goshi, Ashi Guruma. In competition, throws are never pretty or perfect and you get a lot of argument as to which tech is which.
    #5. Definitely Uchi Mata with the attacking leg in between the opponents legs.
    #6. Simple O Goshi, beautifully done.

I’m sure these techs have different names in San Shou and with slightly different pointers and theories, and things are never technically 100% correct when it comes time to apply in competition (making categorization hard) but there’s the Judo perspective.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

thank you!

was hoping you’d chime in.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I was hoping you’d do another Judo Chop so there you go.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 15, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

would one of you judo guys consider making a judo 101 fanpost sometime? or simply direct me to a good resource. I have a bit of jujitsu experience so just from that I know some basic throws but thats not really enough for me to like appreciate a pure judo match. Stuff like set up, strategy, combination would be really interesting.

Now that I think about it, we probably have a large enough community where we have experts on most styles… maybe we can get a a little instructional series going, for each art? not so much training oriented but focuses more on understanding the styles as they apply to mma so we can appreciate more of whats going on. I’ve found a really hard time finding much about high level techniques or strategy for any art except maybe jujitsu.

by phantasma475 on Dec 15, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

judoinfo.com

great informational site. they also have a good forum.

by dr. ransom on Dec 15, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

http://www.usjudo.org/throwofthemonth/March2006/index.asp
A cool example that might open up some understanding of the art. Click on the photos at the bottom for some good analysis of the technique.

The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.

by judonerd on Dec 16, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Basketball has it's Michael Jordan,

golf has its Tiger Woods, soccer has its David Beckham, and the martial arts have Cung Le.

http://www.cungle.com/biography.php

Why I am not fond of him.

by sacterre on Dec 15, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

don't hate on a man for hyping himself

He’s parlayed it into quite a career.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a hater

I think it’s fine that he wants to fight sub top 15 MWs, that is the smart thing for him to do. No biggie that he dumped the title, because when he signed up, SF was small and there was little sign that Mousasi, Hendo, and other scary types would be entering the organization.

This is just over the top funny though.

by sacterre on Dec 15, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

that is true

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean Cung Le has banged like 4 pornstars and a dozen waitresses this year?

He just gained huge amounts of respect in my eyes.

Plus if his wife flipped out on him, she’d need something bigger than a golf club

by TLow on Dec 15, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

how many times have we heard the phrase “michael jordan of mma” used to describe different fighters?

probably the same number of times ufc has started to hype “the most anticipated fight in ufc history”

by phantasma475 on Dec 15, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

wow, great peice nate

by cagefightonacid on Dec 15, 2009 2:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Thanks Nate!

Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma

by VeeisAnimated on Dec 15, 2009 2:38 PM EST reply actions  

Wouldnt mind seeing him and GSP

I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones

by AfroSamurai on Dec 15, 2009 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

Great Judo Chop BTW

I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones

by AfroSamurai on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Im just going to laugh and assume you are joking.

by attgnp on Dec 15, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd enjoy seeing it...

I think it would be very action packed and it’d be interesting to see GSP against a very fast technical striker. I mean, yes…GSP would have to be a very heavy favorite…but it still is fun on paper.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 15, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn’t Thiago Alves a fast and technical striker?

by Dooda on Dec 15, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

for me it would be fun to see GSP against a fast, techical

NON MUAY THAI based striker

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean GSP? I don’t see Le being able to get anything going against him. Le looked amazing against Tony Fryklund. But that’s something else.

(It struck me the other day: there are several classical fights and finishes with Fryklund in them. He is great at losing in spectacular fashion.)

by Sventsh on Dec 16, 2009 2:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Le is hard to take down

and would likely outstrike GSP.
I think GSP would get him down, but I find it more interesting than GSP vs Dan Hardy

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 16, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously:

How can you say that when we’ve never seen Cung fight any top tier fighters?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.

by jemaleddin on Dec 17, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah I'm with this

Cung Le would be an interesting opponent for GSP. Certainly as much fun as Dan Hardy.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Ballin Write-up! I haven’t seen all chung lee’s fights. Had no idea of his talent level i hope he pounds the prick out of sheilds.

by mr. gogoplata on Dec 15, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

ha!

great comment. I’m rec’ing it based on the assumption that it’s brilliant sarcasm.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with the perception of Cung is that he uses his wrestling to keep the fight standing, like Chuck (notice how no one talks about his wrestling either).

When people think about wrestling in mma they think about GSP, Brock, or sherk, people that take the fight to the ground and try to gnp or sub the guy, but if you are btter at striking than at BJJ, you want to use your wrestling to stay off the ground.

by Phildo on Dec 15, 2009 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah that’s true. GSP uses his wrestling and top control to enhance all aspects of his game. When he beat Alves in the stand-up, it was because Alves couldn’t be his aggressive self and come barreling in. Otherwise, with no takedowns it’s safe to say Alves would’ve destroyed GSP methinks.

by Dooda on Dec 15, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct. Not many people reallize that Cung has a wrestling background which helped him exceed in Martial Arts.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 15, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Great Sanshou fighters will always have wrestling, but they’ll use it mostly for takedown defense, and more focused on throws than shoots.

by Anton Tabuena on Dec 15, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Idea for next judo chop

After watching the Hendricks/Funch fight and the BJ/Diego fight I think it would be great to go over the many uses of the swich in MMA…BJ used it repeatedly to defend diego’s single, and Hendricks used it a bunch too…it’s a technique that can lead to a lot of different things, from just getting back up to taking your opponent’s back. Just food for thought.

Great write-up by the way. I’m from San Jose and going to the fight this Saturday and fully expect to see Scott Smith tossed all over hell and back. I have a good buddy who was competitive in san shou locally and explained a lot of things about the throws used to me.

by gocjeffe on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 PM EST reply actions  

thanks

I’ll take a look at those fights. haven’t watched the 107 undercard yet.
You might want to check out the Judo Chop I did on Anderson Silva’s use of the switch to beat Nate Marquardt.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Dec 15, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Well look at you!

Yeah…that’s a good one, and I remember reading it now. My memory is probably wrong, but I swear BJ sat down on 3 or 4 singles up against the cage and then used the switch to get back up…great way to conserve energy defending a takedown if you’re relatively sure you can pull it off and not have the other guy end up in your guard…because BJ was either going to get back up, or take Diego’s back, and I’m sure he was fine with either.

by gocjeffe on Dec 15, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"I don't want to knock my opponent out. I want to hit him, step away and watch him hurt" - Joe Frazier

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Favritegotevj9_small
An Open Letter to Nick Diaz
Tatum_small
Aristotle Knows Nick Diaz Didn't Cheat
Walshrun_small
5 Reasons I Hate MMA
Royce_09_small
Call To Nominate New Bloody Elbow Moderators
Obp_small
The Official BE UFC Drinking Game

Recent FanPosts

Me_small
2012 and Onward: More Free Events, Fewer Pay Per Views Key for UFC Success
Me_2_small
Muay Thai Champion Irshaad Sayed Thinks Win over Jessie Rafols Could Launch his MMA Career
My_avy_small
Roger Gracie signs with the UFC
Lebowski_excited_grin_small
The History of Subo: the bans, warnings, and mockings.
Twitter_small
Varner Breaks Fickett at XFC 16 - High Stakes; Samman, Kheyfets Earn First Round Stoppages
Bros
Nick Diaz: Hero to Millions
Small
Kickboxing sources?
Logo_d__small
Roll a phat one for Nick Diaz
Cg_small
Perceptions Regarding Diaz v. Condit Decision Distorted by the Judging Chameleon

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

MMA Rankings

USA Today / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings