If BJ Penn Wants Multiple Titles at Once, Featherweight Is a Better Option Than Welterweight
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 8:25 PM EST
in MMA News
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There's already a lot of talk about BJ Penn moving to 170 again. He beat Diego Sanchez so thoroughly that one wonders if anyone at 155 has a chance against him. It's a fairly weak class at the top level: there are a lot of good lightweights, but only one great one. Gray Maynard and Frankie Edgar are on their way to shots, and it's Penn's obligation as champion to fight the top contenders, but after he disposes of them the ranks of contenders looks thin.
Unless Georges St. Pierre moves to 185, I do not want to see BJ Penn at 170. He always looks worse at 170 than 155, and the joy of watching BJ Penn is seeing him at the peak of his skill level. Is a Penn/Alves fight intriguing? Yes. Is there any reason to put a natural lightweight against a natural middleweight? Not really. Penn was so thoroughly dominated by St. Pierre that there's really no reason to do that fight again until the last fight of BJ's career. If he wants to end his career with a final chance at St. Pierre I wouldn't object, but while he's a relevant champion I don't see a reason to do it.
Penn's camp is notorious for feeding his ego and telling him what he wants to hear, so it's no surprise Rudy Valentino is already talking about a third fight with St. Pierre and moving to 170. Unfortunately it looks like there's nobody close to Penn willing to tell him things he doesn't want to hear.
There are other potentially interesting super fights for BJ Penn, but they're at Featherweight. Assuming the fights would be on UFC PPV (of course), fights with Urijah Faber, Mike Brown, and Jose Aldo all have a certain appeal that rematches with guys like Joe Stevenson simply don't. The fight with Aldo in particular could be huge in about a year if Aldo keeps up his success. Aldo isn't a name yet, but he will be. Miguel Torres has spoken of moving up to 145 eventually; that's another potential super fight.
Of course, this all hinges on whether BJ Penn can make 145. Joe Rogan seems to think he can, and judging by his physique I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps it would drain him a bit, but that would only make the fights a little more interesting. Who knows, in 2 years BJ Penn vs. Joe Warren could potentially be a huge fight.
Penn has always wanted to be the first guy to simultaneously hold two belts in the UFC. Perhaps this is the closest he could get. It would also shine attention on the WEC, which needs all the help it can get. If he can make the weight and alternate defenses, he could get more established and credible contenders each time out.
Of course, there's always the option of just staying at 155 and dominating. But this is BJ Penn we're talking about. We know he won't do that. Another loss to St. Pierre could potentially be the end of his career, which is another reason to oppose the third fight. If we assume he will not stay put, and wants to be champion of two divisions, he's better off at 145 and 155 than at 155 and 170.
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It’s a fairly weak class with a lot of good fighters, but very few great fighters
If this description fits 155, and 155 is a “fairly weak class,” then what MMA weight class isn’t “fairly weak” or worse?
It’s a very deep class of “good” fighters with very few great fighters. At WW I’d consider GSP, Alves, Fitch, Shields, and Hughes great fighters. Hughes at least was a great fighter, not right now, but he was.
At lightweight you have a lot of interchangable guys. Maynard, Griffin, Edgar…it’s a basic wrestling skillset with some mid-level boxing. Nobody is really dynamic. Lots of good fighters, 1 great fighter.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
You’d consider Shields a great fighter with his limited striking? His ground game is certainly great, but as a whole, I’m not sure.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think he’s a far better all-around fighter than say….I don’t know, Tyson Griffin, or Eddie Alvarez.
He’s a winner, the win over Lawler in particular was impressive. He got stuffed on takedowns against a guy much better than him in striking and found a way to win. But this is besides the point I guess.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
If Fitch and Shields are on the “great” list…wouldn’t you consider Florian and Sanchez “great” fighters at LW.
You can’t say Florian isn’t just as good as a Shields in their division…Florian is more well-rounded than Shields.
And Sanchez hung right in there with Fitch…as great as you consider Fitch to be.
If you’re looking at results, Fitch certainly wins enough to be a “great” fighter on paper…but as much as his skills are hyped…all he shows is "basic wrestling skillset with some mid-level boxing.
agreed,,,
Especially in regards to a guy like Shields… I honestly don’t think he’s near as good as others…. Not that he isn’t skilled, but his ceiling is low for me being that his striking is embarrassing almost….
His ground game is strong tho, and coupled with his solid wrestling he’d fit in the UFC, if he can improve his hands…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
The thing with Shields, I feel, is that his most recent fights are against fighters who accentuate his strengths and can hide his weaknesses (Daley, Lawler, and Miller). I think that if Shields went up against someone like Jacare or Dan Henderson, stylistically, I feel that Shields would look terrible.
Also, dropping in weight doesn’t seem like sort of challenge BJ Penn would be interested in. What would that prove? That he can dominate fighters in his natural weight class and people even smaller than that? Jose Aldo moving up in weight to fight BJ seems far more plausible.
by JRN on Dec 13, 2009 7:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
what would it do?
It would satisfy BJ’s desire to hold two belts simultaneously.
Also, Beating an overweight Aldo would be less impressive than him trying to drop down to 145 and fight Aldo at his optimal weight.
Plus, that’s a shot at history too. I don’t know about you, but i think it makes it more interesting than just defending his belt against a smaller guy..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 13, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
It would satisfy BJ’s desire to hold two belts simultaneously.
I just doubt that another belt at a weight lower than 155 is what BJ has in mind.
ofcourse that's not what he had in mind..
Cause there is NO lower weight class in the UFC.. If there is a UFC FW and BW divisions where the top guys like aldo are fighting, wouldn’t you think that BJ Penn getting the belt would satisfy him more than simply defending his 155 lb belt against one of the smaller guys?
and it’s interesting that you only decided to reply to one line..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 13, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
I reply to one line because I think the response to that one line obviates everything else you said.
BJ Penn has sought out challenges by fighting at 170, 185, and heavyweight. There was just a post the other day about him wanting to fight Andrei Arlovski at one point. I think it’s pretty clear that the kinds of challenges he’s interested in are fights against people bigger, not smaller, than him.
Give Penn to Lesnar (once he’s healthy). Maybe that will knock some sense in BJ’s head.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 13, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
Aldo, Faber, or whoever moving up to fight him works too, but Penn would kill them so badly at 155 that I’d almost rather see him have to drop a few and strain himself. It would be more of a challenge at least.
I’d be cool with either way, but if Penn wants two titles then I’d rather have this than have him try to fight GSP.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
yep..
and not that BJ has to strain himself, but fighting Aldo or whoever at his optimum weight class, is different from fighting him at 155, regardless if BJ makes 145 easily or not..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 13, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of people don't understand...
that it’s equally difficult for some guys to fight below their optimum weight as it is for them to fight above their optimum weight. Would Aldo be the smaller guy naturally? Sure, but he’s also a 145 pounder by nature. Penn isn’t.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 13, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, but what kind of challenge is that? It’s extra special because you had to dehydrate yourself more to make weight? It’s just not the same as beating a bigger man. I don’t know whether it’s easier or harder—that probably depends a lot on context—but I just don’t see that kind of challenge capturing anyone’s imagination.
I agree.
Aldo is young and he can fill into 155lb’s naturally in the future. Although I dont think the fight will ever happen I’d say he’s the only type of guy who would challenge BJ at 155.
Faber, Torres (they cant even keep their belts in their own divisions) aren’t gonna cut it.
Further in the history of combat sports a reigning champ doesnt cut down to a lower weight class to fight the champ their. It just doesn’t happen.
They will have to move up to 155 to fight BJ. BJ at 145 will never happen.
Well
It remains to be seen that Aldo can keep his belt in his division, too.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 14, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Penn has always wanted to be the first guy to simultaneously hold two belts in the UFC. Perhaps this is the closest he could get. It would also shine attention on the WEC, which needs all the help it can get. If he can make the weight and alternate defenses, he could get more established and credible contenders each time out.
I would love for this to happen too, but I don’t think they’ll allow BJ Penn to fight for a title in the WEC.. So unless the UFC adds in the WEC FW and BW divisions, this is something that might not happen.
SOmehow I knew everyone would focus on this. It says it right in the piece, the fights would need to be on UFC PPV shows if BJ Penn was in them.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
yup.
I read that.. and I love the idea..
all i was saying is that I don’t think the scenario can happen, since Zuffa doesn’t seem to like the idea of putting the WEC weight classes in the UFC, and that BJ won’t fight in the WEC either..
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 13, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
They can just...
have the title fights and nothing else on UFC programming.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 13, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Won’t you have trouble pushing/marketing the next contender if he isn’t fighting in the UFC?
by John Nash on Dec 13, 2009 8:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah
I’d love to see BJ hold 2 belts as well, but he picked the wrong time to try and do so, with so many awesome champions lol…guess he’ll have to settle for being the best lightweight of all time, and perhaps the most dominant champ.
Visit my new blog at http://mmacesspool.wordpress.com/
Am I the only one that once to see Penn just stay at LW and dominate? Dynasty make the belt all the more meaningful… because when he is finally beat its like “oh shit”
rampage beating chuck was a great moment… hughes getting beat and then getting it back and then losing ect was great. ect
No, lots of people share your view. BJ Penn doesn’t though, and he’s really the only one that counts at the end of the day.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
The thing is...
BJ already knows he can dominate at lightweight and I really don’t think he wants to beat a smaller fighter, or have a smaller fighter come up and challenge him. At the end of the day, he wants GSP. This is a guy that beat him twice, the second time brutally. He wants to prove he’s the best, and he can’t prove that while he has two unavenged losses to GSP. That’s why GSP vs Penn 3 will happen. It’s “two words!- one word… destiny”
Its amazing how the heavyweight division is now one of the most exciting compared to the others.
BJ wont move down to 145. That doesn’t happen. Those guys will have to move up if they want a shot at BJ.
If BJ moves up to 170 with his new S&C trainers it will be a completely different picture.
It won’t be different. He won’t be able to handle St. Pierre’s athleticism, gameplanning, and wrestling even if Superman starts training him.
The problem really is BJ’s power, which is incredible at 155, is not there at 170. He landed a left hook on St. Pierre that didn’t shake him at all. The same hook would have stumbled Diego, Florian, etc.
St. Pierre is constantly getting better. He improves at a faster rate than Penn if history is any indication. The next one could be even uglier, if that’s possible.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
The 170lbers couldnt do shit to Diego… look at what BJ just did to him. Penn is on a different level now.
Im not saying the outcome will be different in the GSP fight but it will be a completely different BJ. He will move up correctly this time (but he wont be able to move back down effectively after this though). This will probably be GSP’s last fight at 170.
BJ will go through a rigorous training for power and explosion. He’ll have 1 fight at 170 in between the transition of getting ready for GSP.
Im more excited about BJ vs Fitch or Alves than I am BJ vs Maynard, Edgar, florian 2 (all at once in the cage). And if BJ can make it through a 170lb contender then the GSP fight is a bonus.
Very well may be… but I’d rather see that fight than BJ vs Maynard, or edgar or FLorian 2 or all those LW’s combined.
His next fight will be in Hawaii so it will be more of a “featured fight” which will most likely be against a LW unless Jake shields can win his next fight without losing and Zuffa can sign him.
It wouldn’t be the worst thing for Zuffa to do a shift and move Penn to 170 and GSP to 185. A third fight is a joke. People act like GSP moving to 185 to fight Anderson is such a bad idea because they think Anderson will beat him. Maybe, maybe not. We know what happens when GSP fights BJ Penn.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
People will:
Less… if BJ beats the top contender first.
I really think if BJ moves up correctly and Vaseline is taken out of the equation it will be a way more competitive fight.
by mmalogic on Dec 13, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
is that seriously a Dawson's creek gif?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 13, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I was just wondering the same thing, odd that I’ve never seen logic post a pic or gif before and this is the one he decides to bust out.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
You got me… Im a closet Dawsons Creek fan. I used to jerk off to “Joey” until she became Tom Cruises pet.
I thought you meant Joey of friends..
that would be weird…… but hey, you said you did camels, so that’s a step up.. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 14, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A third fight isnt a joke if we isolate and look at things a little bit closer:
The first fight was a close fight… Now let’s isolate it:
BJ was superior technically, a bit inferior strength wise and alot inferior cardio wise.
In the second fight GSP closed the gap technically and was far superior strength wise and ultimately far superior cardio wise which produced a dominant performance.
Technique cancelled each other out and the great disparity between the strength and cardio produced a dominant performance.
If BJ can close the gap strength wise (which is very viable… he’s on his way cardio wise) the third fight becomes a completely different story just like how the 2nd fight was a completely different story from the 1st.
I think GSP has close to peaked strength and technique wise whereas BJ has just now scratched the surface strength and cardio wise.
The third fight will be a completely different story.
Im not saying BJ will win but the same way there was a sharp contrast between fight number 2 and fight number 1… there will be the same or greater contrast between fight number 3 and fight number 2.
And a contender fight will help us confirm somewhat if in fact BJ has closed these gaps.
by mmalogic on Dec 13, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t think there’s any evidence that GSP is slowing down with his improvement in technique.
In fact, the opposite is true.
In the first fight with Penn, GSP was a BJJ purple belt. His striking wasn’t super.
Now, he’s a BJJ black belt, and he owned Penn technically in Penn’s guard. GSP’s passes and GNP, and the pace at which he works is unable to be matched.
On the feet, GSP is only getting better. His boxing and MT training have made his striking game more diverse and his hands better and faster. He can fight in a southpaw stance now almost as effectively as orthodox, which makes him even more unpredictable.
GSP’s wrestling is great, and only continues to improve.
As far as separation of talent from No. 1 ranked fighters and their challengers, I’d rank the gap from largest to smallest like this: Anderson Silva (185); Penn (155); Georges St. Pierre (170); Fedor (heavyweight); Jose Aldo (145); Brian Bowles (135); Lyoto Machida (205).
Interestingly, Josh Gross writes that Penn is the second most-dominant current champion, and Machida as the least. The idea that the once near-mythical karate fighter is now seen as having the smallest gap in talent is rather fascinating. Amazing how perceptions change.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2009 7:51 PM EST reply actions
I guess
Josh Gross didn’t get tickets to UFC 94.
by dagoldenmonkey on Dec 13, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
His argument compares GSP to other WW and BJ to other LW.
GSP has fought the same wrestle-heavy fight against Fitch, Alves, & Penn. The reason Penn quit was because he was too small to take that punishment. Penn has brutalized Stevenson, Sherk, Florian, and now Sanchez, leaving them all wrecks. Penn is also much closer to cleaning out his division than GSP. People still talk meaningfully about rematches with Fitch & Alves – no one thinks anyone is ready to rematch Penn, nor that bringing in outside talent make a difference.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Penn is also much closer to cleaning out his division than GSP
True, because GSP is about to clean the weight class… for the second time :/.
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
I think Machida’s gap being smaller than Bowles is really a bit much, and Fedor too. I’d put him ahead of both of them in this category of ranking in 2009.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
srsly
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Dec 14, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Well Machida has arguably lost a fight at LHW, but in reality won a very close decision. Penn has dominated every lightweight he has fought for years. Silva hasnt been challenged in years and GSP lost to Serra at WW a couple years ago. The only person who might be out of order is Fedor, but he hasn’t cleared out the current crop HWs despite being dominant for years.
by Dropkick434 on Dec 13, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Well Machida has arguably lost a fight at LHW, butin realityofficially won a very close decision.
I feel that’s an important distinction.
I’m with you on the issue of Fedor’s ranking, if anything I’d put him right above GSP. Fedor has been in similar sticky situations (Serra/Hughes I-Fujita/Randleman) and not only overcame, but dominantly won the fights. I’d have wanted to put him above Penn but this last fight was a vulgar display of LW domination. That Hawaiian is scary as shit at 155, and I’d like to officially apologize for having ever forgotten that.
BJ will never ever stop chasing GSP. Those two will be going at it in the nursing home.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
He got hit with a statue
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
Hell, his wife probably threw it.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Can’t blame her, he’s pushing Tiger levels of adultery.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
Just read the wiki section on his controversies. It’s unbelievable how he’s managed to stay in power for long.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Wish he’d gotten punched a lot harder. The dude’s a plague.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 13, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
That’sEuropeItaly for you.
Fixed. Although your country is not far behind ;-)
Italian politics is far worse than any of ther other European powers.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Dec 14, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I would be down to watch GSP/Penn again. Provided someone watches GSP pre-fight to make sure he doesn’t use an oil-bath again.
BOOSH
Yeah you could see the difference in the grappling in the alves fight. I dont think GSP would be dumb enough to take any kind of chance though getting felt up in the middle of a fight to see if he’s sweating baby oil.
I think Aldo’s name has to get bigger for a fight with Penn to be big. Fighting in the WEC as is probably won’t get the job done. Urijah enjoys the most name recognition in the WEC, but I don’t think he or Brown have a shot at matching BJ unless Penn’s skills are significantly diminished as a result of the weight cut. As for Aldo, he’s all kinds of exciting and a great fighter, but I just don’t have an idea as to how he stacks up against BJ at this point. My guess is that he doesn’t.
I may be in the minority, but I don’t see the gulf between BJ and the other top UFC lightweights as being that much different from what you see at welterweight with GSP. While I believe BJ is on another level than Maynard or Edgar, he hasn’t beaten them yet as GSP has Fitch and Alves. Say what you want about the method in which GSP won those fights, but he thoroughly dominated. Period. Now, they have to resort to matching him up against Hardy.
Aldo looks like he might be the guy to do it. If he gets a little bit bigger, and some more experience. He’d definitely be the quickest guy BJ’s ever seen so hitting him would be hard, and avoiding being hit would be hard. The main advantage IMO, is BJ’s granite chin, which seems to be insulated with a football helmet. I wish I had the image of Homer’s X-ray where the doctor tells him that.
I agree, BJ should not go up in class untill GSP leaves WW. I dont see a third fight changing any differently then the last one, yes BJ has better cardo, but its not gana change the outcome. He will get put up against the fence, taken down, and beat up worse then before.
And going down a class(imo) would be stupid, i dont really know if he could make 145, and if he did, all its gana show is him beating up smaller guys.
Just my 2 cents….
Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit.
The Aldo train reminds me of the Machida train
They win the belt in dominating fashion and so the talk starts. Machida is unbeatable. Aldo is unbeatable. Yet they hadnt even defended the title once.
We all know what happened with Machida. That “unbeatable” fighter lost to Shogun in many people’s eyes and if nothing else lost his “unbeatable” status.
I will definitly wait on Aldo. Dont get me wrong I like him. I like the way he fights but I’m not going to be calling him unbeatable and calling for a match with Penn until I see him at least defend the title 3 times.
Yeah, I think it’s far too early in the game regarding Aldo. The same goes for other seemingly dominant fighters with relatively few fights.
by Cannon Jacques on Dec 13, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
^^^ This
I still think Brown given another shot could get his gameplan together to beat Aldo
"Death, so called, is a thing which makes men weep, And yet a third of life is passed in sleep."
- Lord Byron
by MyFightWiffaCheeto on Dec 14, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Dropping a weight class is against the whole Penn philosophy tho. He wants to show that technique beats size. If he was to face someone like Mike Brown it could make more sense as Brown is probably bigger than hium
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
Assuming he hadn’t yet beaten BJ, would GSP rather fight BJ at 155 or Anderson at 185?
Why would anyone go for what seems to be the lesser challenge, even if your chances are hypothetically equal?
by bigweeze on Dec 13, 2009 8:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Really, I know there’s objections to this, but try not to be so dense.
Is there not an obvious difference between choosing between a guy you’ve never fought and a guy you’ve fought twice?
Are you sure cutting 10 more pounds wouldn’t make it an extremely difficult challenge?
GSP has never fought Anderson. Penn’s had multiple chances against GSP, the last one being an embarrassment. He has no business moving up when it’s already proven he’s not remotely in the league of the champion at that weight class.
by Michael Rome on Dec 13, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
Is GSP’s camp putting the kabosh on gsp v spider or is it dana the one stopping it?
at one point it was all the rage… then spider smashed forrest and its been quiet
GSP I think.
He’s been lukewarm on the idea in interviews, and has said that he won’t do it until team mate Nate gets another title shot.
I bet Dana sees that he could try to force it, but it wouldn’t go well. If Anderson/Ed Soares bitch about Vitor not fighting MW in the UFC when he’s dominated three fights at the weight in other promotions, don’t you think they’d make noise about an immediate title shot for a guy who has never fought at MW before? And why have a damper put on the number 2 draw?
It only makes sense that the fighter would want to move up in weight unless he is already stretched and fighting above his natural weight. Even so, people generally want to take on more imposing challenges (especially BJ). They do not look to take on lesser challenges made into greater ones by weakening the body. Would you rather run a marathon, or run a half-marathon carrying a backpack, without having slept for 48 hours, and with no shoes on?
If you’ve already decided that BJ will never fight GSP again, then this makes sense I suppose. But beyond the logistical roadblocks, everyone knows that BJ’s desire is to build towards a shot at redemption to boost his legacy. I’m sure his two losses only make him MORE determined to beat GSP before he retires. Let’s not forget that Diego was scheduled in what was essentially a #1 contendership bout at WW a year ago and was ranked in a tier clearly separated from Hardy/Swick/Kampmann etc…
But even if BJ wins he still lost 2 of 3 to GSP, even if he believes he won the first fight officially BJ would be 1-2, so what’s the point?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Well he thinks that he won the first one and the only reason he lost #2 was because of 1 gram of vaseline.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
So he’s 2-0 against GSP then, no need to beat him again.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Nah he just likes to prove his greatness by beating him again.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
BJ should fight himself.
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
well, he did more damage slapping himself after the fight than Sanchez did to him for 4 1/2 rounds…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 14, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
It’s to prove something to himself, like Rampage/Wanderlei III. Rampage was destroyed way worse in those first two fights than Penn against GSP, and Wanderlei looked like he was back to being a destroyer after wrecking Jardine so that was a huge thing for him at the time
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 13, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
Isn’t this almost 2010?
People just paid $100,000 for a cloned puppy.
We have the technology, we can re-build him, make him stronger.
Clone B.J. Penn, get the clone in the gym to build up some muscle.
Have B.J. Penn fight his 170lb clone. Then, if he beats a 170lb version of himself, he can get a shot at G.S.P.
What about infecting BJ with a symbiote, a la Venom?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 13, 2009 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
That might work.
Make it a movie, WAR Machine or Krazy Horse could play the symbiote.
Soundtrack could be by Arcade Fire. ; )
theme song would be "My Body Is a Cage"
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Dec 13, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=Pyp34v6Lmcc&client=mv-google
by John Nash on Dec 13, 2009 11:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Forgot, you can’t post from your iPhone.
by John Nash on Dec 13, 2009 11:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You’re missing a step: Fedor raises the BJ clone.
Keep firing Assholes!
Fedor has accomplished nothing until he fights Kimbo.
No and nope
I completely disagree. We saw an unconditioned BJ Penn when he fought GSP for the second time.. Who had no energy and was and had no ability to hold his guard because of the greasegate thing. Just like GSP knows it takes a little while to put on lean mass the right way to get to 185 lb class. Penn has also finally learned that gaining and moving up in weight does not consist of relying on burgers and generic mass. Marv can put healthy lean muscle mass on BJ and I believe while keeping his cardio and give GSP a run for his money. Does he deserve an immediate title shot? I’d say no. But after he cleans out the LW division he can move up to 170 and climb his way back up to a title shot with GSP. Think about it seriously, if BJ puts the weight on the way an serious athlete would with Marv and keeps his gas tank why wouldn’t he be a good match for GSP? Is that not intriguing to anyone?
by Pain on Dec 13, 2009 10:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Uh.... wait, what?
If Penn doesn’t have anyone to challenge him at 155, why would anyone possibly think that 145 is where he is going to find a decent fight? That makes no sense at all.
As talented as some of the 145 guys are, surely if they thought they were good enough to hang at LW, they would be in the UFC earning more money?
by brad23 on Dec 13, 2009 10:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You make Penn weaker and that theoretically evens out the playing field.
I personally don’t have an interest in champions weakening themselves to make interesting matchups.
At least if they move up in weight, you get a to see a presumably stronger version of that fighter than if he is 30 lbs lighter.
I like Penn because he’s got the balls to fight bigger fighters. Guys that cut a bunch of weight to beat up the smallest possible competition for a “championship” are not admirable. Just my preference.
I say
give him Koscheck. That way BJ will be happy because he gets a solid guy at 170. Kos is happy because he gets a big fight, and Dana is happy because its an opportunity to shut Koscheck up.
Not a fan of cutting drastic weight.
I do not have a problem with fighters that cut 10 lbs or less to make weight but these guys that are literally cutting 20lbs or more are just too much. Anthony Johnson shouldnt be fighting at ww etc etc. I would love to see Kos and Penn as well ryanwk628. However I am not so sure it would be Koscheck that would be shutting up.
Penn at 145 is a much better idea than Penn at 170. It’s interesting that people think BJ / GSP III would be any different just because BJ has a new strength and conditioning coach. It’s like since their fight, GSP has been doing nothing. History has shown that GSP improves leaps and bounds over his competition. Sure, BJ is getting stronger, and it’ll be a different BJ that fights at 170. But so is GSP. GSP is already putting on additional muscle mass. He’s said it himself, and he’s doing it properly. BJ will be a different BJ when he faces GSP a third time, but so will GSP. GSP will end BJ’s career. It’s unfortunate that BJ is surrounded by a bunch of sycophants.
I love me some Sexyama!
This strength and conditioning stuff going on is ludicrous. You’d think everyone else is static. In fact, St. Pierre is already up 15 pounds on a brand new strength and conditioning program. The difference will be even more drastic if they ever fight again.
Who do you really believe is doing a better job putting on muscle the right way? GSP or BJ Penn?
St. Pierre has a faster improvement curve than Penn. He’s smarter, more athletic, and stronger. He’s also going to be angry, the next fight will be the end of Penn’s career if it happens.
The good news is at the pace St. Pierre is adding weight, he’ll be a middleweight by the end of this year, and we won’t have to deal with a third fight.
The good news is at the pace St. Pierre is adding weight, he’ll be a middleweight by the end of this year, and we won’t have to deal with a third fight.
I sure hope so. It’s not so fun watching someone so gifted and talented just get destroyed because he can’t keep his ego in check.
I love me some Sexyama!
The thing is, I freaking love watching BJ Penn fight. I don’t want St. Pierre to end things prematurely. I think if St. Pierre moves up, I am willing to see BJ try to take on Fitch, Koscheck, Hardy, Swick, Alves, Hazelett, etc. All of those are interesting. The best thing for the UFC would probably be for them to both shift up a class.
by Michael Rome on Dec 14, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, agreed on watching BJ fight. I haven’t been the biggest fan of his personality, but he’s one of my favorite fighters to watch fight. All those fights you mentioned could be very competitive. Plus, having those two move up a class, could potentially revitalize their divisions without such a dominant champ.
I love me some Sexyama!
The end of this year or next year?
The only thing Jon Jones does better than Matt Hamill is hear.
(And smash faces)
Can we at least put GSP’s nuts down long enough to see how BJ does with a fitch or alves before writing the 3rd fight off. Ive seen more improvement in BJ than I have in GSP (which leads me to believe he has close to peaked at 170) since their fight so lets see where their trajectory leads them.
Id still favor GSP but I think if BJ closes the strength gap which is very feasible – Penn is GSP’s toughest fight at 170.
Since winning the title, BJ was the easiest of St. Pierre’s 3 defenses. He’s not in GSP’s league at 170, and St. Pierre has already put on more strength at 170.
In the last few fights, St. Pierre outwrestled Jon Fitch, outgrappled and outstruck BJ Penn (en route to beating the shit out of him), and then outstruck Thiago Alves. His improvement curve is way faster than Penn, who is essentially a sharpened up version of the same exact fighter we saw against Joe Stevenson and Sean Sherk. He is legitimately great and has a case for being the best fighter of all time in his weight class, but he will always be behind St. Pierre’s curve.
The biggest problem for Penn against St. Pierre is that St. Pierre will dictate where the fight takes place. Penn has to fight wherever St. Pierre takes it, and while that works against others, he doesn’t have the bottom game or clinch game to win.
by Michael Rome on Dec 14, 2009 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
BJ is talented but typically tends not to display much in the way of strategy. If he shores that area up, perhaps he can put on a better showing. We know that he’s already gotten better training partners. For the GSP fight, the biggest name we saw him with in Hawaii was Justin McCully, but for his fight with Florian he trained with a number of good fighters in Cali. Because of his improved conditioning, BJ also looked much lighter on his feet than usual vs Sanchez. What does this mean? Maybe nothing.
GSP was far better the last time they fought, but GSP won’t be at his optimal size for WW if he is putting on additional mass.
I hate to write off fights. And it seems sometimes that people would rather GSP not fight anyone because he’s too good.
I dont agree… the BJ of sherk and Joe Daddy would have never been able to finish Florian in the 4th round or Diego in the 5th. He took zero punishment in pretty much every one of those fights because there was no strength gap.
This whole thing comes down to strength and being able to maintain his cardio under a 170lbers pressure.
If he can close the strength gap with GSP enough it becomes a completely different fight. He has more potential in strength training than GSP has at 170 because BJ has never really done real strength and power training whereas GSP has.
You get the biggest improvements initially, especially when you’re moving up in weight and then its diminishing returns as you continue.
(this new regimen GSP is on where he weighs more is nothing special… its called an injury. He hasnt been moving around much so naturally he’s gaining weight with the training he’s able to do)
Ill wait until BJ fights a Jon Fitch type of guy to see how well that strength gap has closed before I can assess whether or not a 3rd with GSP is futile.
GSP has only just hired a nutritionist and stopped eating Cheeseburgers
Lets not put a cap on his 170 potential just yet
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Dec 14, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
BJ has absolutely not shown more improvement than GSP. The opposite is true. Penn is in better shape now, but only at 155. The rest of his skills are very sharp, but haven’t shown huge improvements.
GSP has improved at an ever increasing rate. His game was already diverse, but he’s becoming the best at every single aspect of MMA in the WW division. Add to that virtually unmatched strength and athleticism, and a work ethic that never stops.
I'd like BJ to do what Anderson did
I would personally like to see BJ fight Thiago Alves at Welterweight similar to how Anderson Silva fought Forrest Griffin at Light Heavyweight. My interest is rising in seeing BJ fight GSP again only because it looks like BJ would be able to gain the weight correctly this time around, but I would like to see BJ fight a top Welterweight first before fighting GSP again. I really don’t have any interest in seeing Penn moving down to 145 because traditionally, fighters moved up in weight for new challengers. Generally, a heavier fighter hits harder, and the increase of weight is going to be harder to handle than moving to a lighter weight class. I mean, generally speaking, a guy who is 170 pounds (and probably cutting to that weight) is most likely to be stronger and hit harder than someone who is 145 pounds.
I think this is the objection most people have. I just think if you asked Anderson which is the bigger challenge for him: fighting at 205 or fighting at 170, he would tell you 170 right away, because the drastic cut can take a lot out of you, including your power. I think the difficulty goes both ways.
by Michael Rome on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
"fairly weak class at the top level" - is it?
Only if you’re rating the weight class on a curve against their champ. Skill-wise I think the UFC’s 155 division is only matched by the UFC’s 170 div in terms of depth and matchup quality. This goes for organizations abroad as well.
I’ll agree it’s short of legit potential challengers for BJ, but that doesn’t mean it’s weak per se— I’d definitely say that it’s one of the most ubiquitously talent-heavy in all of the sport, and one of the quickest places for a slipping fighter to fall off and get climbed over in the rankings.
Does anyone seriously think these fights would be competitive?
These fights would never happen at 145. As logic says above people don’t go ‘down’ a weight class in combat sports. You want to see the guy fighting at his optimum. If he loses ‘because the weight cut drained me’ that’s not interesting at all. BJ Penn is never going to cut to 145. Mike Brown or Urijah Faber at 155 would get dominated by most of the guys who are in the ‘good’ category at 155. Sean Sherk, Kenny Florian, Diego – would all dominate Fabor and Brown. At 145 those 10lbs make a lot of difference. Look at the fight between a guy who is near the biggest in his weight class and a guy who is relatively small for the weight (Maynard/Edgar). That’s basically what would happen between any of the typical wreslting lightweights (Maynarrd, Guida, Sherk, Stevenson etc). Josa Aldo is a different proposition and I do think he’ll come to 155 and be a force but we have to give him some time.
I’d be MUCH more interested in watching Penn fight Koscheck or Fitch or even Carlos Condit or Martin Kampmann. Those are fights that we should see before Penn even thinks about taking on St Pierre again.
Penn cannot fight at WW mainly due to the fact that he’ll never beat GSP. I doubt he even beats Koscheck, Fitch, Alves, or any of those guys. Penn has to stay at LW but, even then, I doubt he gets a quality fight there unless it’s from Aoki, Maynard, or Alvarez. The only 155-pound fighter in the world, when he’s on his game, that can stand in that cage and give Penn a truly tough fight is JZ Calvan. And he’s coming off of injuries and lackluster showings. I liken him to Shogun right now. I expect JZ to come back stronger than ever but it’ll take time.
Penn could make 145 but I doubt he wants to. Aldo would be an incredibly tough fight for him. Aldo would probably be the fastest man he’s faced. And, to be honest, I don’t think Penn would win. I think Aldo would prove to be too fast for Penn to overcome over five rounds. The only way Penn could win is trying to submit him (possible) or wear Aldo down (stretch). Either way, I think Penn should just ride out 155 until there really is nothing left. Do not move weights unless you have to. Do it like Anderson Silva did it.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
BJ can fight bigger guys. He showed that against Machida. However Machida is not a guy who uses his size to wrestle and hold guys down. GSP is freakishly strong and VERY good at wrestling. A terrible match up for a smaller guy like BJ. BJ against a good striker or BJJ type guy at 170 who is not GSP, Id take BJ every time.
Why do all these writers say that...
Joe Warren vs. Penn would be intriguing? Anyone remember how he split a decision to “Kid” and got tapped by Fernandes? Even in two years this fight wouldn’t be intriguing.
"Death, so called, is a thing which makes men weep, And yet a third of life is passed in sleep."
- Lord Byron
by MyFightWiffaCheeto on Dec 14, 2009 1:43 PM EST reply actions
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