Fedor Emelianenko Shines in the Spotlight in His U.S. Broadcast Debut for Strikeforce
We talk a lot at Bloody Elbow about whether Fedor is marketable or not. Sometimes readers object that they only care about the fights and don't want to hear about what goes on backstage and want to hear informed speculation about marketability even less. The reason we write about this aspect of MMA is this -- MMA is a fringe sport emerging into the mainstream and its success in the sports and entertainment marketplace determines the quality of athletes entering the sport, the quality of match-ups promoters present and even the larger cultural relevance (if any) of the sport.
With that introductory note out of the way, let's get to some breathless speculation about whether or not Fedor is going to be a marketable star in the States.
BE commenter MMALogic did a very capable job of describing how a fighter, even a seemingly non-charismatic fighter like Fedor can become a star:
When you look at fighters and experience who they are you have to look at them like a casting agent to see the potential. Since everyone has been brought up and raised by TV we look at people and categorize them if they were in a movie or show.
GSP is a Van Damme
Lyoto is a Ryu or the lead martial artist in the karate movies we used to see.
Anderson (Silva) comes off as an extra henchmen type or the bad guy the hero has to beat at the end of the movie.
Fedor looks like the fat guy behind the counter where the lead actor is buying a pretzel.The closer a fighter can get to being viewed as a "lead" character in a movie the more potential they have.
Without talking about acting skills and just looking at their character can you see them as a "lead" in a movie? Can they be a supporting character? or just an extra? Those are the most important questions in regards to potential (besides the physical abilities).
What trumps all of this though is what experience the fighter actually gives the viewer plus REPETITION. Any lack of star potential can be overcome with these 2 factors (quality of experience delivered and repetition of delivery)
The hard core fans have had many "experiences" with fedor. They go way back. To ask or to expect some new fan to view Fedor in the same or similar light just doesnt work.
And if the experience and repetition occurs in big fights (where endorphins of the viewer are most released) you multiply the effect of that "experience".
The thing is ANYONE can end up being a star... it's just a matter of how much quality of "experience" that needs to be delivered and the repetition (how many times it needs to be delivered)... this differs from fighter to fighter and what usually determines it is the potential (the answers to the questions I posed above regarding the "casting" of a fighter).
With that in mind, how did Fedor do at delivering that quality of "experience" Saturday night.
Kevin Iole tells the story how Fedor Emelianenko introduced himself to a mass American audience on Saturday:
The crowd was booing and not in a good mood as Shields and Miller exited the cage.
But as soon as Emelianenko's image appeared on the video boards, it was as if a switch was flipped and the crowd erupted in cheers. Emelianenko, staring straight ahead with a blank expression, walked to the cage and quietly awaited the bell.
...
..it's pretty clear that Emelianenko's next fight will be a much bigger deal. He's never been a big ticket seller before and his pay-per-view numbers were atrocious, but the crowd Saturday was clearly into it and the fight had to have been well-received by those who didn't walk away from their TVs after the dreadful Shields-Miller match.
...
One more fight like that on network television and Emelianenko will be able to carry a show by himself.
I have to agree whole-heartedly with Iole's assessment. I enjoyed the rare treat (for me) of getting to watch the fight with a room full of first time MMA watchers, a couple of skeptical boxing fans who've seen a few MMA fights and our host, one of my long-time MMA watching buds. It was very telling to gauge the reactions. The Shields-Miller fight was more an occasion for discussion of Mayhem's pre-fight antics and a lot of remarks about the sexual connotations of the guard and back-mount positions.
But as soon as Fedor-Rogers began everyone was into the fight. And once Rogers, whose Sam's Club background made a big impression on everyone, scored first and bloodied Fedor the excitement and tension in the room was palpable. When Fedor answered the challenge with his trademark looping bombs, the room was abuzz.
Everyone happily watched the fight a second and then a third time amidst much spirited discussion of whether or not it was an early stoppage, whether there was anything Rogers could have done differently to secure the win and most of all about this mysterious, odd-looking chubby Russian who had such an impassive but implacable aura and an amazing ability to fight.
I have no doubt that most of the first time MMA watchers that I saw the fight with will be back for more the next time they hear Fedor will be fighting.
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All that matters is the ratings for when he fought. Till then its only chatter.
by cyke on Nov 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
later in the week
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you kind of missed the point of the article
I wouldn’t expect a particularly strong showing from Fedor given the fairly weak marketing job done in advance of this show.
Like both posts I quoted, I believe that exposing Fedor to a wide audience and him delivering the kind of dramatic bracing performance he gave against Rogers, will mean he becomes increasingly more marketable.
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, if he crushes werdum in a similar fashion, with gina drawing in more fans as the co main event, then i think he’ll become a legit draw on his own (or as close as he can get to one outside of the ufc).
by woooburn on Nov 9, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess its like asking if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound. If not many people saw Fedor the first time round, would there be a big change the second time around?
by cyke on Nov 9, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for addressing all the marketing discussion, I was one who questioned it and you give good reasoning.
I think the casual and new fans will be drawn to Fedor because he’s the antithesis of a Mayem Miller entrance, there’s no ego there… that’s oddly fascinating to a society obsessed with ego.
The first time watchers that I saw the fight with were definitely intrigued by Fedor not staring at his opponent and his demeanor… people will want to know what makes him tick.
I don’t think its a great analogy but the minimalism in Fedor’s style is somewhat reminiscent of Tyson as he was first coming up.
by bleve_ on Nov 9, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fedor made alotta new fans saturday night….the boxing website I’m a regular at will occasionally cover an MMA story if its a big event and most of the regulars on there are boxing die hards who had no idea who Fedor was and could care less. However, all the posts I read on there after the Fedor fight were all positive…all were impressed and I’m guessing they will be tuning in the next time he’s on for sure.
by ultimoshogun on Nov 9, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
also, i don't think this is important
But as soon as Emelianenko’s image appeared on the video boards, it was as if a switch was flipped and the crowd erupted in cheers. Emelianenko, staring straight ahead with a blank expression, walked to the cage and quietly awaited the bell.
the Arena fans in Affliction shows were also said to errupt and go gaga for Fedor.. but it doesn’t mean anything. They still bombed at the PPV buys, because most of the arena fans, especially Fedor fans, are most likely Hardcores.. Even at the time casuals viewed Machida as a boring fighter (or didn’t know him at all), the Arena fans were cheering for him too.
but yes, otherwise, i agree with the entire piece. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 3:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I put that in to show the contrast from the previous fight
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep i know. and i agree with everything you said. :)
It wasn’t important, but I was just saying… him getting a lot of new fans watching at home are more important than Arena fans who are most probably already Fedor fans.
I think that card was a huge step in the right direction of actually making Fedor a star. Just sucks that it’s probably going to be Werdum next.. well at least the casuals get to see another highlight reel knockout cause i don’t think Werdum can get it to the ground unless Fedor decides to (or drops him).
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see the Fedor/Rogers numbers and then after this weekend
The Couture/Vera numbers. Depending on how the Fedor/Rogers numbers get the Couture/Vera numbers can do higher and it will be interesting to see if they do.
MMA still has a ways to go. People made way more of the amount of viewers than there actually should be. They did great in the demo’s which I guess is what is really important but did not do as great as everyone seems overall.
by bigdmmafan on Nov 9, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
CBS vs Spike..
It’s an unfair battle.. but if Spike pulls it off, shit.
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also mma in general
still cant get the older crowd to tune in and that doesnt matter weather it’s the UFC or Strikeforce or anyone else.
That is why every article about mma ratings always spins the demographic numbers as the success. Yes the demographic numbers are what advertisers want but it would be nice to see an mma event win in the total viewership and not just key demographics.
Will that change with time? Sure the demographic now is getting older and will stay into mma and so eventually you will have a time when an mma event can win with total viewers and key demographics but how long until that happens. Are we looking at a couple of years or like 10-15 years?
by bigdmmafan on Nov 9, 2009 3:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
my bet is it'll take 10-15 years
at least.
boxing emerged as a hugely popular but renegade sport in the 1890s-1910s, then was hip but acceptable in the 1920s and 1930s and it was only really in the 1940s reign of Joe Louis when it really became a multi-generational sport. That lasted thru the Tyson era.
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Strikeforce and the UFC should be doing mma history segments to get new fans and an older demographic up to speed.
Its really the epitome of what Bruce Lee was after… a lot of angles could be used to educate and show its legitimacy.
by bleve_ on Nov 9, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes they should
but zuffa’s habit of manipulating information to further their agendas — commercial and personal would result in a very distorted history of the sport.
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True… SF and CBS have a huge opportunity but I don’t have much faith that the suits at CBS have common sense or good marketing sensibility. Coker really needs to use this to pressure them on their marketing efforts.
by bleve_ on Nov 9, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the problem is zuffa controls the footage of UFC and PRIDE
the 2 most important promotions in the history of the sport.
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by Kid Nate on Nov 9, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Talking head interviews of past champions with some “creative” montages in the back… I think there’s ways to get around that. Might have to take the Ken Burns approach unfortunately.
by bleve_ on Nov 9, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have a point there. Even the strong Zuffa supporters have to admit they are a bit caddy presenting their past footage . . . like Tito never won a significant fight in UFC history.
by bignerd on Nov 9, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ofcourse… and everyone should also admit that they would do the same thing if they were in that position or were a person capable in being in that position.
While we’re being truthful with ourselves lets also admit every other org if they were in that position would do the same thing.
Zuffa “strong arms fighters”… IFL drove a fighter out to nowhere and fucking coerced him to sign a contract without his manager present and later cut that fighter because his teammate wouldn’t sign.
Zuffa “doesnt pay fighters”… Strikeforces minimum pay is fucking $1500.
dollars…
Zuffa “only does exclusive contracts”… Elite xc also did this and strikeforce is dying to do this.
And on and on and on.
by mmalogic on Nov 10, 2009 3:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just an observation:
For the first time since I’ve been in college, I went out on a Saturday night and people were talking about MMA. I don’t go to a school full of jocks, so I was shocked to hear people in between beers saying things like “Did you see Fedor knock that guy out?” when they probably don’t even have a full grasp of who Fedor is.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 9, 2009 3:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Downey Sr, why are you back in college?
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“The minute a man stops learning is the minute he ceases to be a man.”
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 9, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
was that a quote from your son’s movie?
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
My boy was too skivved out on blow to say something that profound. I don’t know where I heard it, but I know I heard/read it somewhere
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 9, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re thinking of the William James quote “The minute a man cease to grow, not mater his years, that minute he begins to grow old.”
by nottheface on Nov 10, 2009 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe?
Maybe I should be sober when read philosophy? Nah…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 10, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That takes all the fun out of it.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Nov 10, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO, the heavyweight fight almost couldn’t have gone more perfectly for CBS/Strikeforce. It was competitive, exciting, and a bit of a microcosm of MMA in general- there was stand up, ground and pound, grappling and submission attempts all in the first round. They were able to keep the storyline of the plucky underdog in Rogers, but also in the dominating monster that is Fedor, and got a highlight reel knockout from the fight. Both guys emerge with heightened public and fan profiles.
Only way it would have been better IMO is if Fedor knocked him out in the middle of the third rather than start of the second, but I can’t see anybody at Strikeforce being unhappy in the way this event went….
by TLow on Nov 9, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
All that was missing
were some vicious kicks, but I guess people should have ordered UFC 104 if they wanted that.
by rzor on Nov 9, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Iole’s is looking at the “quire”… almost everyone in that building is already sold on Fedor.
He certainly delivered a quality “experience” but to really gauge how much repetition is needed and how a “casual” (new eyeball) was impacted by this we need only close our eyes for a minute and go back in time when we first saw fedor fight(herring)…
that’s about the same impression the 4 million or so people have about who this russian guy is.
There are some differences with this example as Fedor was framed by the
announcers as the best fighter in the world and that wasnt the case when we first saw him fight Herring which is a plus .. However when we first saw him fight we knew who herring was so there was a strong reference point to better value his performance.
Consider the time it took for Fedor to become well known in Japan and then you have a closer idea of what it’s gonna take.
The advantage he had in Japan and when he finally made some headway was when he defeated an opponent everyone knew to be the best at the time (big nog) The disadvantage he has here is that nobody knows the guys he’s fighting.
If Fedor beat Sylvia and Arlovski on CBS instead of ppv (which nobody saw) it would have been better than beating 6 Brett Rogers and a dozen werdums.
People think because the casuals see him once all of sudden they will fully grasp who “fedor” is… did you “know” or give a second shit about fedor after he decimated Herring? It was cool for a moment but It took YEARS of beating the best guys (guys the viewers were already familiar with) for Fedor to build this cult following.
We spent years with Fedor, getting to know him, holding our breaths as he was rocked by fujita and slammed on his head by randleman only to come out victorious. We sat in anticipation and awe (while our endorphins were spiking through the roof) as he beat crocop and shut down Nog
To expect those 4 million people to “get Fedor” and fully grasp who he is – after one show – is just not reality.
by mmalogic on Nov 9, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
You have a point – getting to know a fighter takes time , but I think it’s very natural if a bunch of these “casual” fans will look Fedor up on the internet and stumble upon his record and his fight footage.
And even if they didn’t , in the very least – most of the people who watched the last fight will come back for more next time he fights. Fedor has delivered , imo…
by JoelMan on Nov 9, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If Fedor beat Sylvia and Arlovski on CBS instead of ppv (which nobody saw) it would have been better than beating 6 Brett Rogers and a dozen werdums.
this is true.. and yeah, i think it will take some more time, but that was a huge step in the right direction.
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 9, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
If he fought six big black guys at the same time and KO’d them all I don’t care how good they are, that would be impressive.
by ufc4 on Nov 9, 2009 5:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I just watched the Shields fight for the second time. Yep; still really disappointing. I got a kick out of the multiple scrambles/escapes put on by Miller, but there were several times that Shields had a hold of both legs and just kind of sat there. I know he was working and planning his moves, but to the average eye it looked like absolutely nothing was happening.
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Nov 9, 2009 3:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The casual fans I was watching the fight with seemed to like that Fedor looked like a stone cold badass. No emotion, no BS, he just took care of business. Fedor is now becoming a household name.
by brandonh on Nov 9, 2009 4:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So what do u guys think ?
Lets say it was boxing instead of Strikeforce , for example one of the Klitshcko brothers (who are still both heavyweight champions ? I barely know anymore) fighting a top 7 or 8 opponent , free on CBS . Do you think that in that case boxing would have done better? My point is that mma has come a long way , even if it were only 4-5 million who tuned in to watch this. I don’t think boxing would’ve done better unless it was Mayweather or De la Ho ya and Fedor can’t be compared to them popularity-wise.
All and all this was very good to mma imo , it finally exposed a big amount of people to a ‘real’ mma fighter and to an exciting fight. The rest should take care of itself , I thought the fight was awesome and most of the people in the room with me thought so too – some of them very very casual fans.
by JoelMan on Nov 9, 2009 4:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No more fans would not have tuned in to see the Klitscko brothers but more fans probably would have tuned in to see a De La Hoya-Mayweather-Pacquiao just like I think they would have gotten more viewers with a Liddell or Ortiz or Griffin headliner even though they all havent been doing so well lately.
I think well they are decent start off numbers. People act like they are better than they are. In the days of American Idol and Dancing with the Stars getting 25 million viewers, Grey’s Anantomy and CSI getiing 20 million viewers and a regular season NFL game getting 27 million viewers 4-5 million is not that much and the question is how many more viewers can they get.
by bigdmmafan on Nov 9, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right but at this point mma should be compared to boxing , not to mainstream t.v shows or football . And the potential of each additional show like this is only to grow in numbers , not to diminish
by JoelMan on Nov 9, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok but then comparing Fedor to the Klitscko brothers is unfare.
The Klitscko Brothers maybe HW champions but they are not considered the best in the world by any means.
If you compare mma: Fedor(the best in the world) to boxing: Pacquiao or Mayweather (the best in the world) then I think boxing would win.
by bigdmmafan on Nov 9, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it’s a fair comparison , Pacquiao and Mayweather aren’t even heavyweights , and I think the two of them are considered to be the best in the world in heavyweight right now. And both are foreign , from the Ukraine…kinda like Fedor…
by JoelMan on Nov 9, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems reasonable to me, DLH and Pac-man are already big stars like Liddell, The Flying Klitschko’s are unknown and don’t speak English much like Fedor.
by ufc4 on Nov 9, 2009 5:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Vitali speaks four languages, including fluent English. We just don’t like our boxers from Eastern Europe winning with the jab.
by nottheface on Nov 10, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If PPV is really the endgame...
I have no doubt that most of the first time MMA watchers that I saw the fight with will be back for more the next time they hear Fedor will be fighting.
…how confident are you they’d be willing to pay to see him fight?
by rzor on Nov 9, 2009 4:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
as confident as taking a mormon chick out and expecting to get laid that night….
still way more seduction is necessary.
by mmalogic on Nov 9, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor behind the counter with a pretzel. Lol’ed.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Nov 9, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
MMA Clue game?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Nov 9, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor KO’ing Rogers was #7 on SportsCenter’s top highlights from the weekend in sports. That’s gotta mean at least a little something as far as him being exposed to the American market, right?
by Big4Nuthin' on Nov 9, 2009 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not really, WNBA plays have been #1, no one watches, MLS has had a lot of top 10 plays on sportscenter, their championship (and best rated game) has averaged .8/2 rating on ABC from 1996-last year, and now their championship will be on ESPN and no longer on ABC…
People do it all the time with fringe sports, anytime UFC, MMA, Fedor, SF, etc is on espn.com someone posts a screenshot like it means “we” have arrived, people on soccer forums do the same thing for MLS, sportscenter shows a 5 second clip and you can count on a new thread about how ESPN is talking about MLS, it’s arrived….
Arena Football was the same way as well, the AFL forums would always go crazy anytime sportscenter showed a highlight, AFL play was top 10, “our” league is finally getting respect…
no, no and no…a highlight on sportscenter or being front page on espn.com a few times a year means next to nothing, absolutely is better than nothing, but if people even click the link they forget about what they just read 10 seconds later when they read about Ochocinco’s latest antics…or when they see a top 10 play on sportscenter, they forget about it when play #1 is shown, etc…
by Reaser16 on Nov 9, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point, any fringe sport can produce an awesome 5 second highlight but in the larger picture it really means very little. Now I’m disappointed that SportsCenter only had 5 seconds to devote to a weekend with a lot of interesting fights.
by Big4Nuthin' on Nov 9, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Casual fans ruin a great night of fights
I am so sick of people only wanting to see fighters punch eachother. I watched the Shields/Miller fight twice. It was a great fight! Back and forth lots of action. Jake put on a jujitsu clinic on a game fighter, Miller is really scrappy and very difficult to fight. Put the deep dish down and see it for what it was. A hard fought win against a game opponent. One of his biggest challenges yet. They should have booed Rogers complete lack of class and not showing respect for Fedor. Rogers really acted like a third rate fighter on a big stage after the fight, he fought better than I than I thought he could. MMA logic is entitled to his opinion but I would have expected more from someone of your experience and credibility. Bad call in my opinion the whole event was a home run with lots of variety in fighting styles
by son of mark on Nov 9, 2009 7:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
somewhat agree...
I actually enjoyed the Werdum/Silva fight…two solid heavyweights banging it out. Werdum is solid in bjj but he can be a little sketchy and inconsistent at times. IMO, I still think Silva could have taken the win in that fight though.
Yes the Shields/Miller fight was pretty solid and indeed an intense battle. I really didn’t like the entrance of Miller…seemed too much like professional wrestling entertainment than anything but that’s besides the point.
I agree that the fans should have boo’ed Rogers for not being a gracious loser. I’d have to say that Fedor didn’t really have anything to gain from fighting this guy and he had a lot more to lose. Rogers broke his nose and actually had a chance to win the fight. What would that have done to Fedor’s legacy? Did you see how uncomfortable Rogers looked after Fedor took him to the ground? His legs were flopping around like a fish and he was doing everything he could to bring the fight to his feet. Rogers did surprise me when he landed several punches when he had Fedor on his back but still…a one-dimensional fighter like Rogers should have been defeated by Fedor much more easily. I was actually disappointed in the fight myself…I expected more for a fighter who is the acclaimed ‘best in the world.’ Just my opinion…
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by brohamm1978 on Nov 9, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This was funny but needs to be explored more.
GSP is a Van Damme
Lyoto is a Ryu or the lead martial artist in the karate movies we used to see.
Anderson (Silva) comes off as an extra henchmen type or the bad guy the hero has to beat at the end of the movie.
Fedor looks like the fat guy behind the counter where the lead actor is buying a pretzel.
Anyone care to type cast Forrest?
by bignerd on Nov 9, 2009 8:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Opie Taylor, obvi..

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 9, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forrest is the gritty but wisecracking partner in cop shows who always ends up killed causing the main character to go take out the bad guys.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Nov 9, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least use the weo^3 picture =X.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Nov 10, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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