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Why MMA Judging Won't Improve

Photo by Jeff Cain via MMA Weekly

Jake Rossen nails it:

The problem with begging for reform -- which has become a regular bell for critics and fans to ring -- is that it ignores the significant aversion humans have to admitting error. If an athletic commission institutes changes in what is clearly a flawed system, the subtext is that they didn't know what they were doing in the first place. Good luck with that.

People who seek positions of influence tend to want to control situations, not follow instructions by layman's committee. What we're left with are decisions by judges of suspect credentials and observation who could potentially be altering the course of careers -- all while commissions shrug and point to the subjective nature of the role.

He goes on to make seven suggestions for improving the current system without running afoul of the fundamental issue he identifies above. Some of which are very interesting -- five judges rather than three -- some of which are less interesting -- having a media ombudsman watching the judges up close, more 10-10 rounds.

But I'm afraid that we're stuck with the crappy judging system we have now, a system that I'm hearing anecdotally is that the spate of recent controversial decision wins in UFC headliners is seriously turning off casual fans. Many of those fans have come to MMA from boxing precisely because they got sick of lame decisions in boxing.

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A somewhat radical approach would be to not use judges from the athletic comissions at all, and find some people who actually know what they’re looking at.

Keep firing Assholes!

In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.

by Ubernoober on Nov 30, 2009 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

The problem with that is the fights would then not be sanctioned by the commissions. Don’t think that would be legal

by kanodogg on Nov 30, 2009 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i still think a rules overhaul isnt neccessary. i would be happy with judges who understand MMA. i think regardless of a change in rules, people will still “know” who won a round so long as they understand MMA.

I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08

by MicahW on Nov 30, 2009 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

As long as they have judges that get away with using their own, personal criteria instead of the rules in the book (see: Cecil “Leg Kicks Don’t Hurt” Peoples) no conceivable rule set will prevent boneheaded judging.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Nov 30, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions  

Hey hey!

Have some respect for Cecil.

He’s a seventh degree black belt for Chrissakes!

by TLow on Nov 30, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not in MMA judging, he probably doesn’t.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Nov 30, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

My only issue with that is...

that in two of those fights the participants were trying to win the fight via finish and simply unable to. In the third fight one of the fighters was simply playing the rules to force a decision in their favor.

I don’t disagree that Randy may have earned a win via the wording of the rules, but I believe he skirted the spirit of them. I think that case shows where some tweaking of the judging criteria may be necessary to keep the fighting focused on what it is intended to be about.

by Razreshat on Nov 30, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel the same way. I keep seeing people complain about the judging, but not seeing too many botched decisions. Sure the judges may say the look at things we disagree with, they may grade rounds here and there off kilter, but in the end, the same people they pick as the winner I’ve picked as the winner.

No matter how we score fights, people will complain about who got picked the winner in fights that are close.

I’d rather see more finishing and less fights going to the judges anyhow, no matter how they score a fight.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Nov 30, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree fully

Just because the decisions were close and alot of people dident see it that way they are crying out that the judging should be changed. This should have been an issue when the fights like Bisping/hamil and Guida/ griffin were called. I believe the bisping fight is a better example because the guida fight was razor thin

by Riley_96 on Nov 30, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

REALLY???

Obviously you can tell by my screen name which one of yours I don’t agree with, LOL! Machida couldn’t walk right until just recently. Shogun was just fine a few days after the fight. I’m a Tito fan, but agree with that decision. Do you agree that Forrest had a 30 – 27 score card? I should hope not because if you say yes than you’re going to lose some credibility on your posts. And by the way I do enjoy your posts.

by SHOGUNROBBERY on Nov 30, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I also agree w/ those decisions. Maybe not all of the individual scoring, but the right guys had their arm raised. I’d throw in Jackson/Griffin as another fight that I thought the right person won, but some people still poo-pooed about it.

by Hardcase on Nov 30, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is MMA itself.

The best aspect of MMA is what makes it so hard to judge. MMA has so many aspects to it and so many ways to win that it makes it very hard to judge in a way that everyone will agree with.

by Razreshat on Nov 30, 2009 10:42 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

Yep

Rec’d both of you.

Although I think people trying to finish the fight should be given the nod in extremely close calls like Fishbob v Randy

'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko

by Well Read Idiot on Nov 30, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Once again, I think this whole thing is getting to the point of ridiculousness.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Griffin-Ortiz. I don’t even see how that decision begins to be controversial. Except that Dana is making a fuss over the (reasonable, IMO) 30-27 score, but that’s because Dana wants to hype up Tito, because he’s paying the guy 250,000$ a fight, and doesn’t want him to seem obsolete. If this was 2007, Dana would have loved that card.

Machida-Shogun, I guess I’m in the minority, but I thought they got it right. Couture-Vera, Maybe in the minortiy again, but I thought they got it slightly wrong.

But here’s the thing. MMA isn’t some “ultimate fight” to the death. I think we have this stupid idea that this is what truly proves holistically who is the greater fighter in some universal sense. It doesn’t. It’s a sport- with rules, rounds, and the whole deal. It’s a pretty difficult one to score too, but anytime you have a sport with judging you’re going to have controversial decisions, and one you don’t agree with. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think otherwise. If you don’t like it, you can watch your old UFC 1 tapes as an alternative.

Anyway, you can change the criteria, (which will change the sport) but you’ll still have decisions. This hysteria over judging is ridiculous.

by TLow on Nov 30, 2009 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

True

No matter what they do to the rules the fighters will find ways to work around them and earn decisions. Case and point after hockey came back they had the rule that you can only touch the stick of a player and not the player or it would be an automatic trip to the sin bin. AT first the penalty box looked like a sardene can with that many players packed into it, but the players adapted it and used it to their advantage, for example seeing a stick come towards them and moving their arms into the stick drawing a penalty. No matter what rule changes are made the athletes will find a way to exploit them to win

by Riley_96 on Nov 30, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Lets just return it back to the old day where there were no refs or judges or even time limits. That would eliminate subjectivity for sure.

for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.

by Bandaka on Nov 30, 2009 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

I think we’re at the point now where everytime a fight is close, we’re going to have a significant portion of people whining about the decision. While I’ve certainly disagreed with a good number of decisions over the years, the vast majority of those were extremely close fights, and I can at least see the argument of why the other guy should win, even if I don’t agree with it. The only time this can be classified as a “robbery” in my opinion, is if there is no doubt that one guy was so overwhelmingly dominant that there is no way to make a sane case for the other guy winning.

by joshyboy708 on Nov 30, 2009 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

We talk a lot about cecil peoples, but can someone name me a great mma judge?

We don’t know them well, like we know referee, yet they are an even more important part of the game. That might be a hard task considering how subjective judging is.

10/24

by spectaa on Nov 30, 2009 11:22 AM EST reply actions  

The fact that you CAN"T name them, is probably a good sign.

How many people knew Dan Mirgliotta(sp) before he had a couple of controversial calls? Knowing these people is probably more a sign of bad calls, rather than good ones.

How many NFL refs do you know? I would guess a very small percentage. Or NBA? Usually only the ones in some sort of trouble.

www.ultimatefightsource.com
Come visit us!

by ultimatefightsource on Nov 30, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Erf…I don’t follow NFL nor NBA so I can’t name any. I used to follow soccer (I would say football but I don’t won’t to confuse anyone) though and I could name good refs for each big countries ( yeah I was that hardcore). But I agree with your point, if that judges we’re talking about.
If you’re a kickass judge but the guy next to you thinks kalib starn is a master of cage control, the scoring is ruined, and nobody will remember you scored it right.

10/24

by spectaa on Nov 30, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

nelson hamilton (sp?)

by Riley_96 on Nov 30, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it is time to review and re-define the rules. For example, octagon/cage/ring control. It seems as though judging is really getting it wrong here and sort of using this as a “tie-breaker” in close rounds.

Don’t re-do the rules, simply streamline them, make them as clear as possible and educate the judges. As the sport evolves, so should the rules. Can you imagine today’s NFL players playing under the rules from the 1920’s?

It isn’t close decisions that swing one way or the other, that is the problem to me, rather, it is the fights where one judge has it 30-27 for fighter X and a second judge has it 30-27 for fighter Y.

www.ultimatefightsource.com
Come visit us!

by ultimatefightsource on Nov 30, 2009 11:24 AM EST reply actions  

I disagree with the whole judge the fight by the entire fight and not by rounds. It sounds nice on paper but generaly the first round would be forgot and if fighter A seems to be losing a third round domination could very well win him the fight which isnt right. Also i think it might have been brent who pointed this out but maybe not any who he pointed out that right now at least theres a paper trail to how the judges got the winner, in dream theres no clear way to truly know how they came to the winner.

by Riley_96 on Nov 30, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve lobbied for years for open scoring (the score being announced between rounds). Boxing considered it a few years back but (surprise!) they don’t embrace change. I think it would help things considerably but I’m almost positive we’ll never see it done.

by Rich Wyatt on Nov 30, 2009 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

The problem is that after two close rounds it’s announced that Fighter A is up 2-0, then in the third he can just play it safe knowing he’s got it in the bag

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Nov 30, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

True. Works both ways though. You don’t know how many times I’ve heard a fighter insist he knew he was winning and say “If I’d known I was down I’d have thrown the kitchen sink at my opponent.” Fighter B in your scenario might not go all out and take risks in the last round under a closed scoring system because he wouldn’t necessarily know he was down. Under this option he’d have no question that he’d have to finish his opponent to win. It should be a wash, in theory. Besides that, I’m a firm believer that the more information you give someone the better, in general. Seems only right that a fighter knows what they need to do to win in the eyes of those judging him. Don’t take my word for it, though. Ask the fighters. The majority of them will say the same.

by Rich Wyatt on Nov 30, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Shogun said "If I'd known..."

And its the only reason I don’t sweat those who call it for Machida.

Displaying the scores would go a long way towards helping the judge’s credibility and help the fight narrative for the fans at home & in the arena.

by asa on Nov 30, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

point taken

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Nov 30, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Frankly, that fighter deserves to lose.

If it takes knowing the judges score card to make you try and win the fight in the 3rd, you deserve to lose.

by Razreshat on Nov 30, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Not what I’m saying (“If it takes knowing the judges score card to make you try and win the fight”). Take Lennox Lewis vs. Evander Holyfield, for instance. Lewis gave the guy a boxing lesson throughout the whole thing. Many ringside observers scored it 11 rounds to 1. The judges saw it a Draw. It’s still considered one of the biggest robberies of all time. All I’m saying is that it would have been nice if Lewis and the tons of fans who paid their hard earned money could have known early on that the fix was in and that the judges were scoring rounds for Holyfield in which he was outlanded 7 to 1. I suppose well meaning folks can disagree, though.

by Rich Wyatt on Nov 30, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess it’s like if there is an all-out war and Fighter A has a razor thin 2-0 lead from a couple takedowns to steal the round or whatever, Fighter B is like, well, I’m going toe-to-toe but the judges don’t see it that way, so I have to finish decisively.

(apologies for terrible sentence—typing while in lecture)

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Nov 30, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I prefer Fagan's ideas..

I think the system could avoid most of the issues that people have with the current judging criteria.

for those of you who haven’t read it yet.. it’s here.

by Anton Tabuena on Nov 30, 2009 1:08 PM EST reply actions  

I wish the USA was near the Netherlands...

If only it was closer to home for me, I’d make a sign and stand outside their offices day after day.

Here is my idea: The Athletic Commissions in the US are a local government appointed body. That means you can go to the local governor and try to get him to fix this! The Nevada commission seems to be the most important one, so I guess it’s a good idea to start there… other states will most likely follow suit.

If your government doesn’t work for you, you’re being tyrannized. It seems quite obvious to me that MMA is a legitimate and legal sport that is being held back by bad governance.

1. Form a committee, make a (temporary) website, get some fighters in on the action to show the problems go deep and thoroughly damage the sport and the business. Make sure you set up a good presentation about what the problems are exactly (the good people at BE should be very able to do this).

2. Call the governor’s office and set up an appointment to adress this issue. He has the power to fix it, and he should. Remember that your government works for YOU, not the other way around. Make sure you present yourself well, preferably wear a suit and tie.

3. Get a reporter from the state news or paper or whatever to join in, I doubt the governor will let such a great oppertunity for easy positive media attention go. I see no reason the governor would decide against action, wich could be portrayed as ‘stabbing the sport and the business behind the sport’.

In short: Time for some political action. Make sure everyone involved is on their best behavior, don’t wanna portray MMA fans as stupid brutes right? :)

by MyrkN on Nov 30, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions  

Our government cant manage anything,

that is why this will always be a problem. I don’t care if you are right or left wing, our government (both sides) is full of liars and crooks.

Someone needs to establish a judging commission. A nationwide independent collection of judges who are trained in MMA. Define cage control, takedowns, escapes, sub attempts, and positional control for the judges AND fighters. The only clear damage/scoring seems to be striking. I personal put a lot of merit in sub attempts and how close the attempt come to finishing the fight.

10 point must with 10-8 becoming more relevant and more frequent. 4 Judges should be used. 1 who carries a grappling background, 1 with a striking and a 3rd with either. The 4th judge would only score the fight as an entire fight, not each of the 3-5 rounds but declare a winner for the entire fight. We only hear from this judge when a draw occurs.

These same judges should have their entire years work judged by peers. When a failing grade is presented, the judge is removed.

by Riney on Nov 30, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Sports vs. Art

I think this quote is very true and something I hadn’t really thought about. Great point Jake.

As for scoring, I think this really comes down to … do we want a sport like football or an art like Kung Fu? I personally don’t want to see either which leaves a gray area. This may sound really crazy and I am sure I am going to get a lot of laughs, but what if they went to an almost Olympics / Ice-skating type of judging? We agree that a lot of this is subjective, so it is difficult to get every call right, but there shouldn’t be such wild swings from judge to judge. Clearly they are all judging off of something different. To my point earlier in a previous rant about the Machida fight, there are certain categories that they are supposed to look at, but there is no instruction as to how things are weighted. Is a punch worth more than a kick? Is control worth as much as damage? No one can tell me. This leaves people like Couture who win by holding Vera. This is boring. Vera struck almost the only damage in the fight and no one is even crediting him for voiding out one of the greatest wrestlers in the game. He was pinned to the cage, but had amazing takedown defense. That doesn’t even come into the equation.

On another note … I still can’t believe it when people say Machida actually won that fight. Its like saying George Bush is smart. However, that is why I love this blog, the best fans and the best arguments.

by b_radical on Nov 30, 2009 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

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