Anderson Silva Won't Fight Vitor Belfort at UFC 109
by Kid Nate on Nov 28, 2009 9:50 PM EST
in MMA News
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MMA Junkie reports:
MMAjunkie.com has learned from sources close to the organization that a planned bout between UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva and Vitor Belfort will not take place on Feb. 6.
Silva's has bone chips removed from his right elbow in October, and the joint has reportedly proved slow to heal.
Sources close to the situation informed MMAjunkie.com that "The Spider" might not be ready to fight until April, though Silva's manager, Ed Soares, wasn't immediately available for comment....
MMAjunkie.com was unable to establish whether the UFC would seek to find a new opponent for Belfort or if "The Phenom" will ride out the new delay for his shot at the UFC's middleweight title.
We've written repeatedly about Anderson Silva and his manager Ed Soares' recent habit of being available for big money fights and seemingly avoiding less lucrative bouts. Brent Brookhouse made the most damning case:
Silva and Soares were quick to jump out and start claiming that Vitor was not worthy of a title shot and that the true challenger should still be the winner of the fantasy Marquardt vs. Hendo match-up. Not only do they not feel that Belfort earned a shot at the belt, but the previously "200% healthy" Silva DID end up having elbow surgery and now that was turning into a possible factor that would prevent the fight from happening. In talking down Belfort they are also breaking one of the golden rules of fight promotion by making it look like the challenger didn't earn his shot. It works for a guy like Lesnar because that is a part of his mystique, but it can significantly damage a fight's drawing power when the challenger is framed as not being deserving and probably being third or fourth in line for the shot to begin with.
So now we went from a division brimming with potentially huge fights and legitimate challengers to Silva/Belfort which may not happen because of the elbow which seems to always be hurt when Anderson doesn't like the fight he has been offered, Dan Henderson seemingly out of the UFC, and Nate Marquardt in limbo.
And here we are again, with Silva claiming his elbow isn't recovering quickly enough to allow him to fight at UFC 109. I expect that if Brock Lesnar or some other mega-PPV draw were on the card, that Silva would be experiencing a miraculous recovery.
As big a fan as I am of Anderson Silva's incredible fighting talents and creativity as a martial artist, I'm no fan of his behavior at the negotiating table and this is one fighter who makes me root for Dana White to put the boot down as soon as the tables turn and Anderson needs the UFC more than they need him.
It does create an opportunity for the UFC to give Vitor Belfort one fight at 185lbs so that he can make a stronger case for deserving the title shot. Of course if they were interested in fighters deserving title shots rather than being marketable draws on a PPV headliner, they'd have booked Nate Marquardt's for a rematch with Anderson Silva by now anyhow.
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Where is the evidence of him faking his injuries just to be able to be on a big show??
Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit.
by mma is #1 on Nov 28, 2009 10:00 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Did you not read the quote from Brent’s article?
by ufc4 on Nov 28, 2009 10:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I missed the part where he faked an injury though. As for the “200% healthy” quote, Anderson Silva wouldn’t be the first fighter to understate his injuries in anticipation of a fight, so that’s hardly “damning evidence” in my eyes.
Or he wouldn’t be the first to get annoyed at people asking him the same personal medical questions repeatedly…
The bone spurs were an old injury, and he’s said that he was scheduled to have them removed after the Leites fight… and put it off to be a good soldier and fight Griffin.
No no no…that doesn’t fit the bootstrapping narrative that this column is based on. Anderson Silva is CLEARLY sticking it to Zuffa and its fans, and Dana has to “put the boot down” on him and his transgressions against humanity. No, it can’t be that a fighter who relies so heavily upon elbow strikes might want not to rush back from elbow surgery before he is 100%, particularly while riding nearly a 10-fight winning streat, and with a title to defend. He’s a greedy, money-grubbing Brazilian being controlled by Evil Ed Soares and his desire to rule MMA and dictate matchups by representing Top Tier fighters who train together and refuse to fight. That sounds about right…
by madiq on Nov 28, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 15 recs
Actually, I love this idea of Ed Soares taking over Zuffa. We should try to make it happen.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
One of us clearly knows nothing about sarcasm.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
As big a fan as I am of Anderson Silva’s incredible fighting talents and creativity as a martial artist, I’m no fan of his behavior at the negotiating table and this is one fighter who makes me root for Dana White to put the boot down as soon as the tables turn and Anderson needs the UFC more than they need him.
Why does a fighter trying to make as much money as they can in their profession upset you so much? I’m also not sure what Dana “putting the boot down” is supposed to mean, he has no leverage in this situation. Silva’s the champ and he can get away with this bullshit because of that.
I hope he gets some big paydays before he retires, I can wait a few months for him to beat the crap out of Vitor.
It’s not about being upset that he’s trying to make as much money as he can, it’s the way he thinks that he should be able to hand pick exactly who and when he fights. As long as the UFC’s plans aren’t unreasonable (like asking him to fight too soon after a previous fight or asking him to fight someone not ranked in the top 10) then he should be willing to do it. Instead he plays games and tries to act as matchmaker for the entire division.
by ufc4 on Nov 28, 2009 10:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is Vitor in the top ten? How did that happen?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Uh huh. But guess what? The limit for the Middleweight Division is 185 pounds, and the limit for the Light Heavyweight Division is 205 pounds, hence, fights where both fighters are fighting at 195 pounds happen in the Light Heavyweight Division. Don’t believe the hype; contracted weights still fall within a division, for the purpose of deciding a ranking, and that fight was a Light Heavyweight fight.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/rankings
He’s actually in the top 5 since you asked. How? Might have something to do with his 5 fight winning streak. No they haven’t all been at 185 but that’s where he is fighting now so that’s where he’s ranked.
Well that’s just dumb. Rankings are within weightclasses after all,
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
The problem is he’s ranked there due to fights he had outside the weightclass. How is this hard to understand?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Well if were gonna complain like that
then you have to bitch about Mousasi and Silva being ranked at LHW. Both men are getting major love at LHW.
The Lindland fight really helped him as well. I belive Lindland was ranked 7th when Belfort took him out at 185 so it’s not all matches outside of MW.
Which Silva is that? Anderson, whose last win was against the #2 Light Heavyweight in the world at the time?
#2 lhw?
Griffin was #2 I think your a little mixed up.
Both Anderson Silva and Gegard Mousasi have fought twice at lhw and are now ranked at 8 and 6 respectively.
They are ranked partially because of the lhw battles but mostly because people have seen what they did at mw.
Ok, so probably not #2, but Top 5 obviously, depending on where you’d rank Rampage. And yes, people tend to take into account what people do in other weight classes when they rank them, but at least Anderson Silva beat a former champion in the fight after he lost the title, rather than a former champion a few years later, in a weight class he has never been ranked in.
But remember, this same point about Belfort having dubious credentials to be getting the title shot is PRECISELY the one that a manager should be making, even if he ends up advising his fighter to take the fight. It isn’t his job to sell the fight; it’s the job of the PROMOTER, and he could just be pointing out a fact that the promoter needs to address in its promotion of the fight to a skeptical fanbase.
But remember, this same point about Belfort having dubious credentials to be getting the title shot is PRECISELY the one that a manager should be making
Why?
Because if his fighter is going to be defending his title and attempting to build a legacy, he’d want to do it against credible opposition. If people are to be going on about him being “protected” or fighting “hand-picked opponents,” then he has to counter with the fact that he wants to face the most deserving opposition.
In addition, fighting a consensus #2 ranked fighter who the fans believe deserves the title shot means a bigger payday for his fighter than facing an unknown in a “mandatory title defense,” which in some circles is viewed as a tune-up fight before a bigger matchup. With Anderson having a finite amount of fights on his deal, it makes sense that he’d want to make every fight count, and not have anymore Cote/Leites-style fights.
Because if his fighter is going to be defending his title and attempting to build a legacy, he’d want to do it against credible opposition.
Which is exactly why they should be saying the guy the UFC deems as the #1 contender is worthy, not the other way around.
You mean like the UFC deemed Patrick Cote and Thales Leites #1 Contenders? Yeah, how did that work out for them?
Nope, he can live in the Real World with the rest of us, not in the Danaverse where every fighter is a threat to Anderson, just because he signs the contract. I respect him and his candor more than I do a promoter whose credibility is more of a day-to-day thing.
Anderson signed the Cote fight because it was on the same card with Chuck Liddell, he knew he would make big money, he could care less about how worthy Cote was as a contender.
It's a promotor's job to see the fight
Do you really believe that a 1-2 in his last 3 fights and coming in off a loss Tim Sylvia was a contender for Fedor? Maybe more than Leites and Cote you could argue but the idea that hey Dana White is the only 1 that pretends fighters are contenders when they might not be is false
But there is no consensus #2 at mw
depending on who you talk to Hendo, Nate, or Belfort are most deserving of the shot and hell if you had talked to people before October 24 then Okami was right there for some people as well.
So then it isn’t wrong to say that there are a lot of deserving fighters, and in his opinion, Belfort wasn’t the most deserving, but yeah, Anderson will fight him if the UFC puts Belfort in the cage with him…which is what Soares said.
The problem with his comments
were he wasnt willing to say who he thought was most deserving for the title.
He just said he didnt think Nate, Okami, Hendo, or Belfort were worthy and wanted to fight Frank Mir.
Guess what if you dont think fighter a is deserving be prepared to say who you think is worthy and be prepared to fight them.
Well, he said that the fair thing to do is probably to let them fight it out, while he’d take a big fight at Heavyweight against the former champion (like he did at LHW) in the meanwhile.
And again, you gloss over the fact that Soares said that Anderson would fight anyone, but what he thought about it personally was that a top contender should have to distinguish himself.
Ok well the reality is
the UFC wants himto fight Belfort at MW. They dont want him fighting Mir at hw.
And if he is willing to fight anyone here is an idea face Belfort, Hendo, and Nate and that will shut everyone up.
Anderson’s going to Strikeforce?
But seriously, I’m sure that Anderson would fight three fights in three months if it got him out of his contract, so that he could fight Roy Jones Jr. However, since that fight isn’t getting made, he wants to cement his legacy, and make as much money as possible, before finishing out his career. Nothing wrong with that.
And then he’ll have to beat X, Y, and Z to shut everyone up after he mops the floor with Belfort and co.
You do realize he holds the record for longest win streak in the Octagon, no? He’s “shut up” everyone by now, I’d think.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Ok well then the bigger question is
Who do you guys want to see Anderson fight Nate,Hendo, or Vitor or would you prefer a fight with a Frank Mir or Randy Couture?
Because to me I’d rather much see him vs. Belfort regardless of if he’s the no. 1 contender than Mir but maybe that is just me.
Lindland being ranked 7th strikes me as pretty ridiculous itself, but i guess that’s at least a reasonable argument. As for Mousasi, he should be a fringe top ten LHW at best. He’s got the potential to be great but he’s got what, two wins in the weightclass, with one against an arguably top ten opponent? I love the guy, but he’s got a lot to prove. Silva, on the other hand, demolished a guy who was unquestionably in the top five. That gets you in the top ten.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Why?
coming into the Belfort fight Lindland had won 10 of 12 only losing to Fedor and Rampage at higher weight classes.
Maybe I’m wrong. Who had he beaten recently?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I cite the Josh Barnett clause.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
I love Josh
but his ranking was pretty inflated too.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Except Middleweight is a deeper division than Heavyweight is. I couldn’t see a 4-1 fighter being ranked at #2 at Middleweight, could you?
Well if some super powered wrassler came out of nowhere and wasted some random regional guy, lost to Nate, the beat Belfort, Hendo and then Nate, yeah I would consider him #2.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
Actually, for your analogy to be apt, he would have to have lost to Chael Sonnen a year ago, then beat a solid fighter like Alan Belcher, then Hendo, then beat Sonnen, coming off the Okami win.
And I still think that it would be more likely that fighters below him would move up and get the #2 ranking, because there are more fighters chomping at the bit in that division.
Heavyweight now has a clear pecking order since the fall of Pride with the supercharging of the UFC HWs.
Now everything would be neat and orderly if fedor would only join the UFC, alas no.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
I see your pecking order, and raise you an inactive #2, who will probably be dropped from the rankings for inactivity before he fights next, a #4-ranked guy who has Staph, and is thought to be past his prime, #8 and #9 guys with no opponents, and a #10-ranked guy who was declared the #1 contender by the UFC. If the #3 guy loses to Cheick Kongo, it’ll all be FUBAR.
Josh back up to #2 by June, eh?
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
i see your rankings and raise you
a #5 who just lost, a #6 who in january wont have fought in 1 year and has tested positive for steroids on 3 different occassions and a #7 who got ko’d in his last 2 fights and no one knows if he will ever fight again.
It's not just about who you beat
its about how many wins you can get too. He did take Rampage Jackson to a split decision and beat Newton and Horn.
Is it overly impressive? No but there are a lot of cases where as long as you win you move ahead in the rankings
he thinks that he should be able to hand pick exactly who and when he fights.
Every time I read someone express this sentiment (and it is common enough) I get the feelings like you think the UFC fighters should be good little slaves while under contract and do whatever Zuffa wants them to do. I realize they’re not slaves by a long shot, but it seems that people think that these fighters should have no say in how their careers are shaped once they sign a UFC contract.
Fighters should be able to pick who and when they fight (and it can hardly be argued that in this case Silva has been ducking hard fights in favor of fighting cans). Fighters get asked all the time “Who do you want to fight next?” Do you cringe whenever you hear that question? Do you think the only appropriate response is “Whoever they put in front of me”?
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Fighters should be able to pick who and when they fight
So if Anderson decides his next fight should be Brock Lesnar and he won’t fight again til Joe Silva agrees to book it then that’s OK?
Fighters get asked all the time "Who do you want to fight next?" Do you cringe whenever you hear that question? Do you think the only appropriate response is "Whoever they put in front of me"?
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
And as a direct response to your question
Yes that is ok. That doesn’t mean the fight has to be made. It means you can’t make a fighter fight someone they don’t want to fight.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
Also
Every time I read someone express this sentiment (and it is common enough) I get the feelings like you think the UFC fighters should be good little slaves while under contract and do whatever Zuffa wants them to do.
Obviously you didn’t read the very next sentence:
As long as the UFC’s plans aren’t unreasonable (like asking him to fight too soon after a previous fight or asking him to fight someone not ranked in the top 10) then he should be willing to do it.
It’s not a fighter’s job to book fights, they aren’t the boss, the UFC is.
I did read that next sentence. Thats the heart of where we disagree.
You think that if the UFC’s plans are “reasonable” (as defined by whom? The UFC no doubt) then the fighter has no choice but to comply. I obviously feel that fighters should have more of a choice than that.
And the UFC is the boss? I thought promoters worked for fighters, not the other way around. Without the fighters, the UFC is nothing but a good idea.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
And without these guys, the UFC isn’t making anything.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Nov 29, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Really?
Seems like the UFC was making pretty good money before Silva came along. They were doing just fine before Brock Lesnar. BJ Penn left and came back. Fighters can be replaced, the UFC brand name can not, at least not in less than a ten year timeframe by which time guys like Silva will be long gone from the fight game.
When did “these guys”, plural, get turned into Silva, singular?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
100% false. If every single fighter in the top 100 vanished instantaneously, the UFC would promptly start marketing fighters 100-200 and making money off of them.
by Michaelthebox on Nov 29, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
So you REALLY think the PPV-buying audience is that loyal (or stupid) that they’d buy PPVs featuring ZERO fighters that they know?
"independent contractors" is a word that gets thrown around a lot
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 29, 2009 1:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And is completely misused
If they were truly “independent” they could fight for any other promotion that they wanted to.
Independent contractors are made to sign non compete clauses in their contracts all the time.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What’s in the UFC’s best interests may not be in a fighter’s best interests.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
No, but they have to come to some sort of a compromise at some point. How come we never hear about these kinds of problems with Brock or GSP? Because they are willing to work with the UFC, with Silva it’s his way or nothing.
And we’ve seen Randy Couture have countless problems with Zuffa. And Tito Ortiz. And Quinton Jackson. So on and so forth.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Are you trying to shift the goalposts? You gave two examples of guys who have been “company men” who have succeeded in Zuffa. I gave you three counterexamples of guys who have been problems for Zuffa, and still made money in the UFC.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I don’t really see how Tito has been a problem for them, he has never made another MMA promotion any money. Neither has Randy Couture, at least not in the last 8 years. The fact is these guys know that they owe the UFC more than the UFC owes them, that’s why they came back.
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say. You pointed to Lesnar and GSP as being guys who have made money by being company men. I pointed out Couture and Ortiz as guys who have not necessarily been the best company men, but still made money with Zuffa. Do you not see the point I’m trying to make?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I see your point, and my point is that as much as Tito or Randy thought they could get over on the UFC by seeking greener pastures somewhere else they always end up coming back. Silva should have learned by now that it doesn’t pay to try and play these kinds of games with Zuffa, they will win and all it does is cost you time which you could be fighting and making money. Do you think looking back on it Randy would rather have been in court or have another $3 or 4 million on the bank from the 2 fights he missed out on?
But the fact is Randy did. As did Tito, and now Rampage and Dan Henderson. OF COURSE they lost (and are losing) out on money, but so did the UFC. And so when you say, “how come we never hear about these kinds of problems with Brock or GSP?” I just see you cherry-picking, because more of the UFC’s headliners HAVE had issues with the UFC than haven’t.
The difference is the UFC still made tens of millions while those guys were out, Tito and Randy made nothing, just as Hendo and Rampage are making nothing right now.
Well, clearly, fighters should just accept the peanuts and orders of Zuffa because they know what’s best.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
No, they should shit on their ass for a year and a half in a courtroom or butchering the english language while missing out on making millions of dollars as they get older and older.
And yet, despite it all, they have problems with the UFC anyway. Good thing they diversified their interests, by having gyms and doing movies. I guess when you look at it that way, the statement that they are making “nothing” isn’t entirely accurate.
And yet, he isn’t getting punched in the face to earn his money. And he might get movie offers based off of the A-Team. Rampage is obviously an idiot who is too dumb to make decisions for himself. The only good decisions are the ones the UFC makes for him.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
He said he’d fight Rashad for free, obviously the getting punched in the face thing isn’t that big of a deal to him.
And this will all be a moot point when Rampage returns, having done the A-Team movie, and fights Rashad with the cast of the movie sitting in the audience, eager to plug said movie…
by madiq on Nov 29, 2009 2:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know, you’d have to ask him. I’m pretty sure he signed a better deal than the one he had before he left.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Also, with regard to Brock Lesnar, give him time. Even GSP, how many times have they tried to push an Anderson Silva fight on him, only for him to politely decline? Why isn’t he “just fighting who the UFC tells him to fight?”
White said that he never had problems with Silva, and has nothing but good relations with him.
Plus Silva took Irvin fight at LHW, on short notice because UFC wanted to counter Affliction show. To me it seems like he is willing to work with the UFC.
Silva may say weird things in the interviews, but in the he never turned down an offered fight and UFC president says he doesn’t have any problems with him.
by dancingChicken on Nov 29, 2009 2:53 AM EST up reply actions
But they can call people out, and answer questions that create sound bites to be replayed in pre-fight hype.
Here’s the thing, if people actually thought Belfort was the #1 contender, and Silva said he wasn’t, we’d all be like “oooh, Anderson is disrespecting Belfort,” and “I can’t wait to see Vitor shut that arrogant prick up.” People would pay money to see that, like they pay for Mayweather fights, where he says that his opponents aren’t in his league.
Problem is, we kinda know that Vitor doesn’t deserve the shot, and we aren’t keen on having him earn the shot, Machida-style, because we think that he’d probably lose to a top contender. So instead, those of us that root for letters over names, want to see Zuffa convince the masses that Vitor does deserve the shot, and we’re none to pleased about Anderson Silva and Ed Soares talking out of turn. Don’t they KNOW that they’re supposed to play along, and say that Vitor is the toughest challenge he’ll face to date, and that he’ll have to bring his A game, or get blown out of the water? Can’t they SEE that the way to get 500K people to pay for a fight is to hype up the opponent?
Ironically, Ed Soares did all that he could to hype up Shogun before the Machida fight, and hardly anyone gave him a chance. I haven’t seen the buyrate numbers for that one, though — did it work out? Good thing that so many fans think Shogun won the fight; now the rematch will sell much more.
Anderson Silva’s problem is his invulnerability, and his lack of opponents people are hyped to see him matched against. Whether he says Vitor is credible or not, the six or so months between Vitor’s last fight and his next one will do more to undercut his ability to draw with casual fans than any comment that Anderson or Ed Soares might make about him.
by madiq on Nov 29, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i’m mobile, otherwise i ’d rec
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 29, 2009 1:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And Shogun didnt deserve the shot in many fans minds
Yet he managed to push Machida harder than anyone else has.
Saying Vitor isnt worthy is your opinion, there are no facts to back that up. Was Rampage worthy when he fought Chuck? How about Brock fighting Randy?
Yet guess what they won and so all of a sudden there wasnt anyone questioning if they were worthy.
This is a pretty silly line of reasoning. The fact that Brock, Rampage, and Shogun did well in their title fights doesn’t retroactively give them prior accomplishments they never had.
Either there are accomplishment-based criteria to be met to be the #1 contender or there aren’t. If there are, Vitor hasn’t met them, at least not while Nate Marquardt is still around.
Again though what criteria has to be met to be the #1 contender
is on a person to person basis. There is no set criteria that defines why fighter a is better than fighter b for the title shot.
Take example lats fights: Is Nate’s ko more impressive than Vitor’s ko.
It’s all a matter of opinion. If you like or liked Maia than Nate’s ko is gonna mean more than if you think he is a jj wiz and nthing else.
or if you think Franklin is washed up or never was really good then your gonna think that Belfort’s ko is not as good as if you like Belfort.
There are no “set” criteria, but some criteria are still more reasonable than others.
And by any reasonable set of criteria—that is, criteria based on quality of opposition in the actual 185 lb. weight class, said quality being determined by opponents’ accomplishments in that same weight class—Nate Marquardt is more deserving than Vitor Belfort.
Funny thing I dont remember
anybody saying crap when Mousasi got a title shot in his first fight at 205 or everybody said how great the Strikeforce event was on CBS nobody said hey why did Jake Shields get a title shot in his first fight at 185 (Lawler was at 182). I dont remember any complaining that Sylvia got a shot at the WAMMA hw title coming off a loss or Randy Couture getting a title shot for the hw title when he had lost his previous 2 hw bouts.
My point is it is not gonna work out perfectly. Never does, but people pick and choose which situations their gonna complain about. If your gonna have a problem with Belfort getting a title shot then speak up about the other situations as well.
Well, none of the Strikeforce LHWs were in the Top 10 at the time…and if you recall correctly, that was supposed to be a (non-title) fight on the Affliction card.
As for Shields, as mentioned earlier, 182 is still Middleweight, and he beat a Top 10 guy. Plus, that was an Interim Title Shot, so there was no champ around to challenge his worthiness.
The Tim Sylvia deal? I guess the fact that he lost to a higher-ranked guy like Noguiera made his fight against Fedor more about a former UFC Champion vs. a former PRIDE Champion than a bona fide “WAMMA HW Title” opportunity. And in the case of Randy Couture, you must’ve forgotten there was a fair amount of outcry, but Brandon Vera was in holdout mode, and nobody knew who pre-Headkick Gabriel Gonzaga was, so they were pretty short on challengers. Even still, people assumed that Sylvia was just getting a past-his-prime Couture to pad his record.
I understand what you’re saying, but the point we’re trying to make here is that Anderson Silva isn’t “ducking” anyone. However, that doesn’t mean that he has to act like everyone the UFC chooses for him to fight is a credible threat, when most people see that as promotional smoke and mirrors, rather than true #1 vs. #2 matchmaking.
Funny thing I don’t remember anybody saying crap when Mousasi got a title shot in his first fight at 205 or everybody said how great the Strikeforce event was on CBS nobody said hey why did Jake Shields get a title shot in his first fight at 185 (Lawler was at 182). I dont remember any complaining that Sylvia got a shot at the WAMMA hw title coming off a loss
People hold organizations that aren’t “The Super Bowl of MMA” to different standards. Imagine that! No one takes Strikeforce titles terribly seriously, and more or less everyone agrees that WAMMMA titles are a joke. But UFC titles mean something to people. Isn’t that… a good thing?
or Randy Couture getting a title shot for the hw title when he had lost his previous 2 hw bouts.
Your memory is failing you. Plenty of people had objections to this.
If your gonna have a problem with Belfort getting a title shot then speak up about the other situations as well.
I will. What makes you think I wouldn’t? OK, it’s kind of off-topic, but here’s one: I think Gray Maynard deserves a title shot more than Diego Sanchez.
I cringe--
Because almost without fail, the answer is, “whoever Dana and Joe put in front of me” or some variation thereof.
Props to Koscheck, and Props to Penn.
I still can’t believe a comment that says:
Fighters should be able to pick who and when they fight
Actually got 8 recs. You people act like these fighters are indentured slaves working for nothing but their dinner. The Anderson Silva’s and Randy Couture’s of the world make more money in a year than most of us will make in twenty years. If you guys want to turn this sport into boxing then fine, maybe in ten or twenty years the UFC will be nothing but one of a dozen different sanctioning stealing money from the fighters and we will get great fights once every 4-6 months instead of every month. We will never get to see fights like Machida-Shogun or GSP-Penn because these guys will be too busy trying to keep their undefeated records intact. Instead of Dana White pushing to legalize and legitimize the sport around the US and the rest of the world we’ll just have guys like Don King screwing the fighters out of the money they work hard for and not giving two shits about the sport itself. And when that happens none of you will have any room to bitch about it because this is where it starts and that is obviously fine with you.
by ufc4 on Nov 29, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
LOL @ you trying to go worst case scenario. Calm down there, buddy.
GSP-Penn happened exactly because Penn wanted the fight.
And Dana White was happy to oblige.
If Penn just wanted to stay and fight Lightweights…I’m sure the UFC couldn’t force him to, right?
There’s a balance there between the fighters and the org.
Low level guys fight whoever they have to, to get up the ladder.
Champions get to pick and choose to a certain extent.
Spider’s assertion that Vitor doesn’t deserve a title shot is not w/o merit.
He doesn’t have to sign the bout agreement, and if there are consequences according to the contract, so be it.
by MickDawg on Nov 29, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
GSP-Penn happened exactly because Penn wanted the fight.
And Dana White was happy to oblige.
If Penn just wanted to stay and fight Lightweights…I’m sure the UFC couldn’t force him to, right?
What fight would have made him more money, a rematch with GSP, one of the top P4P fighters in the world, or whatever lightweight he would have destroyed at the time?
Can’t the truth come out one way or the other? Like if you miss a week of work, you get a doctor’s note… Can fighters get away with lying about surgeries and recovery times?
Yes he can get away with it because they know he had the surgery but there’s no way of knowing if it’s still hurting him or not.
by ufc4 on Nov 28, 2009 10:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s going to be a little more than six months now since Anderson Silva has fought. While that is not unusual for a UFC champion, there are high level fighters out there like Marquardt, Hendrson (despite being a rematch for both and Henderson being a free agent) and Belfort who are awaiting their title shots. Honestly, as far as Middleweight is concerned, Vitor Belfort honestly comes off as the biggest threat to Anderson Silva with Marquardt being a close second. If Belfort needs to have a fight at 185 then fine, but give Marquardt the title shot if Marquardt beats Sonnen.
Ok i am all for anderson getting a payday but you know what, he screws himself over. This point has been pointed out a dozen times or more but he should have been itching to jump back in there after the forrest win. Forrest was just the name needed for him to be noticed by fans.
Anderson slaughters forrest and gets his ppv draw ball rolling but now this hold out elbow foolishness is just making him fade off the radar again. He is geting on alot of hardcore fans nerves and he is being lost in the abyss when it comes to casuals.
If you want big PPV pay days entertain and become a draw and stop trying to rake it in off someone elses name.
Goddammit Silva
At least this time, I didn’t ever really believe that the fight would actually happen.
Why doesn't the UFC just play ball and PAY Silvia what he wants???
Silvia is avoiding these fights just because they don’t draw PPV buys. So by that rational he must be wanting MONEY, MORE MONEY. Why doesn’t the UFC just offer him a higher rate, or just a fixed fee increase to fight or something!?
Because they don’t have to. If you’re responsibly running a business you don’t pay employees whatever their heart’s desire.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
That’s true. However, fighters aren’t UFC employees. They’re independent contractors, and responsible independent contractors get as much as they possibly can for their labor.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
And somewhere in between is an acceptable compromise.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
Totally
I’m just saying neither party should roll over for the other. Personally, I’m always going to hope the fighter gets the better of the negotiations, but I take labor’s side against management every time.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
If the UFC didn’t like fighters holding out on fights they should have prohibited it in their contracts.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
by FRANKIE on Nov 28, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That makes no sense, if a guy doesn’t want to fight it’s not like Dana White can carry him into the octagon and make him do it.
You guys are missing a lot of shit.
UFC contracts almost all have a clause that if you turn down a fight you are offered, an extra 6 months it tacked on the the end of your contract. So no, Dana can’t push two guys into a ring and make them fight. But he can own them as a competitor for a long time if they don’t.
Anderson’s pay issues aren’t his fault. You can blame two people for it. The promoter (who signs the checks) and his management (who negotiated how big those signed checks are gonna be).
So Dana should pay Silva a higher percentage because Silva isn’t a draw? That makes no sense. His pay is directly tied to how much he makes the company, the less he makes Zuffa the less he is worth, simple as that. Lorenzo Fertitta shouldn’t be punished because Anderson Silva isn’t a draw.
I don't know that it is as simple as that
Anderson may not be as good a draw as say Matt Hughes at this point, but he is probably more valuable to the UFC brand. The UFC benefits greatly from the fact that it can describe itself as having the best fighters in the world. Not having the pound for pound best fighter ever greatly hurts their claim. This is the main reason the UFC is willing to overpay for Fedor.
by Neil Manich on Nov 28, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
But they already have Silva, he is contracted to the UFC whether they give him a raise or not so there is no reason to.
And Anderson
Is trying to make a reason to. Theoretically. I’m still not convinced he isn’t injured.
by Neil Manich on Nov 29, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sure his injury was legit
I mean he didn’t have the surgery just for fun. Is it still bothering him? Who knows, it’s just annoying that he keeps going back and forth and back and forth. I’ve said this before but if they had just said after the Griffin fight “Anderson needs surgery, his elbow has been hurt for a while and it needs to get taken care of before it gets worse. He will not sign another fight until he is 100% healthy and back training” then this could have all been avoided. Instead we get a different story every week and that’s why there is such a backlash.
Yeah and the 106 video blogs didnt help his case
When they showed him and Dana talking it made it seem like his elbow was fine.
So this is pointless sensationalism
But what if Dana edited it like that deliberately to sway public opinion against Anderson. OOOOOOOHHHHH conspiracy.
by Neil Manich on Nov 29, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
If Anderson wanted to end this
he should have done a statement like UFC4 suggested after the Griffin fight or even now.
If he cant go issue a statement saying that the elbow is not 100% and he doesnt want to fight with it until it is 100% and then say he will issue a statement when he is ready to fight again.
Boom. problem solved but instead we get yes he’s ready to fight, no he’s not yes he had surgery no he didnt back and forth bs.
Agreed
This back and forth is going nowhere. I just think that Anderson is much more valuable to the company than his ppv buys say and probably more than he is getting paid. I can understand if he’s doing everything he can to get paid as much as possible. It bothers me as a fan though considering I’d like to see each of the fights discussed: Nate, Vitor, Mir, and (if the Machida/Rua rematch falls favorably) Shogun
by Neil Manich on Nov 29, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that Silva is a very valuable commodity to the UFC. That being said we really don’t know exactly how much he is making, he could be the third highest paid fighter in the company. I don’t think he is more valuable than Brock or GSP, if his pay is right below theirs then I really don’t think he has any room to complain.
That's exactly the problem with this
We don’t really know anything. We don’t know how injured Anderson is. We don’t know Anderson’s real pay rate. We don’t even know how much of this Anderson is saying and how much Soares is saying because Silva won’t even learn English. And yet here I am on a Saturday night. Fuck this, I’m going to watch the Road.
by Neil Manich on Nov 29, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You raise a very valid point.
One which I commonly fall back on to describe Anderson’s value. He’s the only guy in MMA with a win streak and domination like Fedor, and the only other guy who can be sold as unbeatable at this point. GSP got Serra’d, Lesnar is still ever so green, but he still has the #1 p4p fighter in the world fighting in the UFC. Huge points for the organization.
as to ufc4: I’m with you. I said two people are responsible for his pay scale. If Anderson is unhappy with it, then he should take it up with each of them.
The length of the contract means nothing
as long as the fights are fulfilled and your not a champion.
Take Griffin if he had 1year, 3 fights left on his contract and turned a fight down it wouldnt really matter if it was extended 6 months if he got the 3 fights done ine 3 months then the contract is done.
That's assuming
The UFC gives him fights. See Roger Huerta
by Neil Manich on Nov 28, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
They did that to Roger because he wouldnt resign
and it was his last fight.
Yeah
So in Roger’s case length of contract matters. If you keep ducking fights the UFC can bury you. It doesn’t matter in this situation because of the championship clause and because nobody in their right mind would bury Anderson. So this is unrelated.
by Neil Manich on Nov 28, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just concerned that if the UFC management gives in to Silva’s demands and gives him a big raise mid-comtract that would set a precedent for the other UFC PPV heavy hitters. GSP would develop a recurring groin injury, Lyoto would have a recurring hand problem, Brock’s insides would melt periodically, BJ would develop a crippling addiction to coconuts and so on.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
I think either you’re misconstruing my point or I’m presenting it poorly, probably the latter. I don’t think the UFC should renegotiate anything (although it’s certainly not unprecedented in sport). However, i think it’s entirely reasonable that Silva tries to maximize his earnings within the scope of his current contract. If that means delaying fights until they’re on favorable cards, that’s what he gets to do by being the champ.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Or we’re both wrong and he’s really injured.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
Yeah, god forbid the fighters start maximizing their earnings.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Maximize their earnings off the name recognition and value other fighters bring to the card. Silva wanting to piggy back on the PPV buys Lesnar brings in is my biggest issue. He should be worried about being able to sell/headline events by himself. Being put on a supercard when you aren’t really a draw should be a reward… something Silva hasn’t earned recently.
It’s not Silva’s fault that being brilliant a fighter doesn’t draw people.
If I had to choose between:
A: average fighter but good salesman…
and
B: brilliant fighter but bad salesman who has management smart enough to capitalize on average fighters sales skills…
…I would choose the later. Fans get to see a special specimen in action and he gets payed well for hard work.
If I would choose A, fans would get average fight and a salesman who whines about injuries and thinks that he won that fight.
But hey, may be that i’m in minority and all I care is to see good fighters in action. Their money and how they get it is not my business.
by dancingChicken on Nov 29, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
uhh, because he recently lost to ray mercer...
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 29, 2009 1:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s not that he isn’t getting what he wants. Silva, like other champs/draws gets a percentage of the PPV profit, so they are suggesting he would rather be on a bigger card. He is not a huge draw himself, but if he were to fight on a card with Lesnar for example he would probably make five times as much as if he were on a card with only his fight as the main event b/c the buy rates would be that much higher.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by JeremyShane on Nov 29, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Belfort/Akyama then.
Keep firing Assholes!
In Idaho, it's illegal to f--- a porcupine. You know why? Because someone tried it.
You know, it could be his elbow hasn’t healed yet. Just saying.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
by FRANKIE on Nov 28, 2009 10:53 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
yeah I don’t get this jump to the conclusion he’s faking. Fighting on the 109 card with Couture/Coleman(or whoever fills in when Coleman eventually gets injured) in Vegas is probably the best thing he can hope for until mid summer or whenever Lesner returns. If this is holding out for a card with more PPV buys, it just doesn’t make sense.
Silva is 34… recovery from surgery is no small thing at his age.
In a new interview with Fighters Only Magazine the champion confirmed he is not injured and is ready to fight in 2009.
"I don’t know anything at all about any elbow injury," he said, adding with a laugh, "I wonder who hurt me?"
"I’m 200 percent healthy and there’s no injury. UFC can set the next fight whenever they want, I’m ready. I’m interested in fighting Frank Mir. He can be the next one."
Gee, I wonder why people continue to question him.
like he did with the Griffin fight, taking it injured, he might have taken the Mir fight before having the surgery. That quote is from when he was still angling for that, and he certainly wouldn’t want Mir to know about an elbow injury.
Fighters say they’re healthy all the time. How many times have you heard “Best training camp ever” before a fight then immediately after they say “I shattered my pelvis two days before the fight but I didn’t want my opponent to know.” I think the official word for that is Ortizing.
But they put out statements that he hadn’t gotten surgery and wasn’t… after he got his elbow surgery. Somebody else, Dana if I recall correctly, broke the news when Anderson and Ed were saying he was healthy and ready whenever.
I could be wrong, but I thought those statements (200% healthy, doesn’t need surgery, ect) came from September and he had the surgery some time in October.
Again, he was trying to sell a fight with Mir he would have taken injured. Once he was convinced that wasn’t going to happen, he went to have surgery.
Or maybe it was a gigantic conspiracy by space aliens and the mafia. I’m not sure.
That’s fine, but don’t say one thing, do another, and then complain when you get questioned about it.
I’m failing to recall Anderson complaining that BE commenters were jumping to conclusions about his injuries.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Nov 29, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't have sources readily at hand
because I don’t feel like digging through the dates on the articles right now, but somebody in the UFC (again, I think it was Dana) broke the news about the elbow, said he already had surgery the day after Anderson/Ed made statements saying he was healthy and ready to fight and the injury was all rumor.
Really Anderson?
Kimbo would outdraw you on PPV….it’s sad but true. You are truly screwed with this Zuffa contract but in the end it’s your own damn fault. Don’t even think of fighting Roy Jones Jr either…you will lose. Instead invest in this…
That man has a big ass head.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
My personal position is that Anderson is awesome and should do whatever he wants.
He is now on my growing list of fighters that are even more awesome for how much they piss off legions of internet commenters. I hope Fedor, Anderson, and Roy Nelson go undefeated for the rest of their careers.
by JRN on Nov 29, 2009 1:26 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Agree with you 100%
But was anyone honestly surprised by this announcement?
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 29, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
if u start a fan club I’ll join. can we add karo to the list for a little light comedy?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 29, 2009 1:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with Nate.
Silva has lied to us one way or another. This is at least his 5th time changing his mind. This is why I cannot stand him.
I find it funny that some of the same people saying “Silva is only looking for what’s best for him and maximizing his earnings” are same of the same people who were crying that the UFC didn’t give Yushin Okami a title shot. A fight with Okami would have been the least lucrative for Silva out of all the MW contenders so I guess it would have been OK with these people for Silva to not want to fight him.
I suspect those same people thought that Okami possessed the list of accomplishments at 185 to justify said title shot, which they would contend that Vitor doesn’t have.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Nov 29, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
It wouldn’t be cool if Silva decided that he would never fight Okami because it wouldn’t be lucrative enough. If he wanted to push it back a month or two to get onto a bigger PPV—which is the cynical interpretation of this whole elbow-surgery business—I would say that’s fine.
Anderson has not, and probably will not, refuse to fight Belfort altogether. It’s not in his best interest to do so. If he uses what leverage he has to push the bout back to March or April—so what? Bummer that we have to wait to see Anderson fight again, but I can live with it.
So they won't be on 109, but
tatame says it will still push through:
Anderson Silva’s manager, Jorge Guimaraes, spoke with TATAME.com and confirmed: Silva’s next title defense will be against Vitor Belfort. "It’s a tough fight, Vitor is a dangerous guy, but Anderson is a tough guy, (Vitor) is gonna fight the best pound for pound fighter in the world"
so i guess that means Vitor will just wait till Anderson is okay, and won’t fight a different opponent on 109?
by Anton Tabuena on Nov 29, 2009 2:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not sure if I’d put too much weight in a website that doesn’t even know the name of Anderson Silva’s manager.
Black House has two managers. This Jorge guy appeared on several (especially Machida) promotional videos. But I guess he works more behind the cameras.
by dancingChicken on Nov 30, 2009 2:53 AM EST up reply actions
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