Evidence of Anthony Johnson poking Josh Koscheck's left eye, prior to the "illegal" knee:
Johnson had this to say after the fight:
"I didn't hit him in the head, I hit him in the arm. I don't know why he would act like [that], I guess he was gassing. That's the only thing I can think of, [him] trying to find some kind of excuse to complain. I know I didn't hit him in the head. I thought I timed it perfect but I didn't and that's my fault. After him poking me in the eye it made a big difference. Then he did it twice and got both eyes the second time because when he swings, he jabs with his open hand and the right didn't even hit me, it was just the open palm strike and my eyes, my eyes are burning like hell right now. After I hurt him, he needed that, he needed some kind of excuse to recover, but it's all good."
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Scott Haber
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i’m not saying that shows nothing, i’m just saying that its pretty blurry and doesnt remove any of my doubt that koscheck faked it.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
it looks pretty convincing to me. I originally thought Kos faked it too, it was too fast to see if he connected with the hand, but this does it for me. I don’t think Johnson realizes he did this though. maybe if he sees this picture he’ll change his mind as well.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Lol thats some funny shit. How any body could argue that the eye poke even happened is completely ridiculous. Sorry man if thats “too blury” for you go watch the fight over again. I caught this exact frame in the live broadcast and so did pretty much every one I was watching it with. Only people that didnt see it at that time when it happened were Joe Rogan and Goldberg and everyone I was with thought they were completely blind for not catching that. I mean what good does Instand Replay do in mma if the people analyzing the replay are blind?
It is a bit blurry
but I see johnson’s thumb clearly above the rest of his fingers which are near Koscheck’s chin. The thumb appears to be at the level of his nose, and possibly between his nose and his eye. I don’t think this is the moment of the “poke”, but rather just before or after.
by Scott Haber on Nov 23, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
The poke was a swipe after the knee… from what I remember.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
There was a swipe after the knee
but that swipe appeared to hit Kos’s right eye, not the left eye which was the one that was affecting him during the timeout. That’s what Rogan kept wondering about…there was no evidence of Johnson making contact with his left eye until the blurry photo above.
by Scott Haber on Nov 23, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
The swipe after the knee was on his left eye, the knee hit in the right eye area.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
No...
the swipe after the knee was to the left eye also. Just cued up the fight and watched it again.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 23, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
That’s what I just said. The swipe was to his left eye.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Lol the eye poke is not even in this gif. Whoever think the poke was in that swipe of Anthony Johnsons right hand to Koscheck’s left eye after the illegal knee is mistaken. Watch the fight again it was Anthony Johnsons right thumb in Koscheck’s left eye a couple seconds and frames before the illegal knee.
That’s below, and it doesn’t look like it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Whoops, my bad
must have remembered it incorrectly
by Scott Haber on Nov 23, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
from the sherdog argument about this
I don’t know why that blurry shot is everywhere when there’s clearer footage bouncing around.
by twotone on Nov 23, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not seeing a thumb hitting eye.
Alla som inte dansar är våldtäktsmän.
by Eugene Schelfaut on Nov 23, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Def no eye shot. The only thing that can explain that, without Kos being FOS, is sweat from Johnson’s forearm getting in Kos’ eye
yep
much better to see, I am now back at not knowing shit :P
His gloves swiped his eye though for sure, if the tape was a bit worn out it could have affected his vision.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
What you guys need to do is get an “enhance” filter like the folk on csi use
by kanodogg on Nov 23, 2009 10:15 AM EST via mobile reply actions
But seriously
While it is blurry, this does lend credence to Koscheck being poked in the eye. Looks like a thumb there to me, and there is nothing in Josh Koscheck’s past to suggest that he was faking it. He may be a lot of things, but he is tough, IMO.
Hmmm....
I’m not sure why this is controversial.
From what I saw, the knee hit his right eyebrow or forehead, then the hand swiped across Koscheck’s left eye after the knee. That’s what I saw.
Rogan got the two mixed up, and that’s where all the fucking confusion came from. It seemed clear Koscheck’s eye got swiped after the knee, but the kneed eye was never being held by Koscheck. A lot of people tried to make that case because Joe was saying the wrong eye for a bit.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I thought that was the case as well – knee and then he got poked. On a re-watching, it seemed pretty clear that he took a finger in the eye after and that was what made it seem like a delayed reactin to the knee.
That being said, if the people on CSI can enhance the image of a persons face from the reflection on a wedding ring on a security camera – why can’t we get a better shot on the eye pokes?!?! :)
I think
That Kos’ arm got hit by the knee but the force of it transfered into his face so he got hit on the left side of his face by his arm. At the moment, though, he saw the knee coming and felt something hit his face so he assumed it was the knee. As a result he went down thinking it was an illegal strike and played it up a little. Maybe not to get a rest, but it could have been to seem tougher for continuing on or something.
He’s always seemed like kind of a jerk, and that was surely a phantom knee
Who gives a shit....
Johnson still got his ass outwrestled in the second round and lost. And I don’t get where the fuck he gets this whole… I hit him in the arm. It’s clear as day he didn’t.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I think its pretty clear Johnson was trying to land an illegal blow and Kos' arm got in the way....
what’s the point about the arm?
So, if I try and shoot someone, but their car door gets in the way am I only guilty of vandalism? Kos’ arm getting in the way is only happenstance and nothing that Johnson planned for when throwing that knee.
It's extremely clear to me...
that the knee didn’t hit his head.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 23, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm, yeah, you’re right.
I was actually concentrating on his right arm for some reason, not the left arm trying to block it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I think this was discussed some the other night but I am still confused on it.
Johnson threw a knee towards Koscheck’s head and Koscheck blocked it with his arm. So since Koscheck had the presence of mind to get his arm up and block what would have been an illegal knee to the head it was no longer an illegal shot? Is that right?
Just BE.
Uhh, no way in hell.
A knee to a grounded opponent is illegal, regardless if he blocked it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Actually…
If you throw a knee at a downed guy and he moves to the side and you hit shoulder and his collarbone breaks. That is a TKO win. The foul has to actually occur to be a foul.
Like, I can try to headbutt you all fight, but until I connect…I’ve not committed a foul.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 23, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, this is a bit tough to call.
If Koscheck’s arm isn’t there, does it hit him in the head? I think it does, and I think that’s an illegal knee then. If it was heading to his breadbasket, okay, but it seems odd to me that if I get kneed on the ground in the head, I should eat it in order to get the point deduction.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
You can think that all you want
but the rules say the knee has to be “to the head” to be an illegal blow, and I don’t see how that shot to Koscheck’s arm could reasonably be considered to be “to the head”.
The Foster-Larson fight has two excellent examples of illegal strikes, but the distinction the rules make here is clear.
What the rules need to fix is the distinction between an axe kick and a stomp, because when mad eto the body of a downed opponent, one is legal and one is not, and I honestly couldn’t tell you how to determine which is which.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
So, I can throw knees to a downed opponent’s head, but if he happens to block the oncoming illegal blow… it’s suddenly not illegal. That’s fucking bullshit. I mean, you are probably right in the interpretation, but that’s bullshit beyond bullshit. Because then I’d basically HAVE to eat it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ok. now I see why I was still confused on this.
So basically it isn’t against the rules to attempt illegal blows. It is only against the rules if they connect.
Just BE.
Wait.....
So does that mean if a guy is turtled up and has his arms wrapped up around his head to protect himself and his hands are covering the back of his head then it is o.k. to throw shots at the back of the head because they aren’t actually connecting with the back of the head they are actually hitting the hands?
Just BE.
Exactly, that’s what I’m saying. Seems like a load of bullshit to me.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
What?
No, I’m saying it is against the rules to attempt. He attempt to land a knee to the head, but some people are saying that since Koscheck blocked it with his arm… it isn’t illegal.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you.
Throwing an illegal knee, punch, or kick has to be illegal regardless of whether it lands. It could be just a warning instead of a point deduction if it misses but it still has to be considered illegal.
Just BE.
Its not a tough call when that is what happens, but it is often hard to say no contact was made with the head. Basically, if it doesn’t hit the head, then no foul. If a man was on his feet when you threw it and on his knees when it lands, no foul even if it KOs him. This is how the rules were explained to me by the dude that refed this fight.
Seems like a bunch of garbage to me.
That basically means if I’m on the floor, I shouldn’t block knees to the head because then it’d be legal.
On a side note: Did anyone else think the whole Brian Foster putting his hand down meaning he’s a downed opponent was a bit ridiculous?
That’s a bit tough for Larson to see when he’s hunched over his back.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Intent is not something the ref is going to guess at. It either hits him or it doesn’t. Its not the only instance when a person that is going to be fouled can prevent the foul.
And the second Larson point deduction was BS. He was up when the knee was thrown. Should he have thrown the knee and left himself open to the point deduction? no, but as far as the rules were explained to me, no foul.
I just didn’t understand it. Foster puts his hand down on the floor. I mean, a hand down on the floor from that position seems like an easy way to get out of the kneeing. It isn’t so much idfferent than the knee down against the fence to avoid being kneed, but at least an opponent knows the knee is down. Larson had no way to see the hand down.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 23, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
It sounds like Johnson is having a hard time coming to grips with losing.
He should quit complaining so much and take a jiu-jitsu class.
The real scandal of this fight is how many people were itching to crown Johnson the future of the welterweight division and “the man to beat GSP”.
I don’t think this really should change anyone’s view of the future of the division. Johnson can remain just as much of a “future superstar” as he was before the fight in my eyes. It’s very clear that he is not the NOW of the division though.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 23, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'd rather see Johnson vs GSP...
I wouldn’t say that he is ready for GSP just yet. I’d give him a few fights first. But Johnson would pose the biggest threat to GSP. He’s powerful, strong, and his striking is dead accurate. GSP wouldn’t stand with him. He’d take him down, and work him in that position. But, Johnson would still be a tough fight for GSP just because of his size, strength, and striking ability.
Hardy is most likely going to lose. Though if he happens to catch GSP with a punch…he could knock him out. There is always that punchers chance!
Kos made Johnson look like a pretty average fighter to me. Rumble look scared and unprepared. Johnson proved he is not as ready for top 5 welter weights maybe not even top 10. The ufc should take more time to build him up let him work on his take down defence. His weight class is dominated by wrestlers and Kos exposed a big hole in his game. Anyone who thinks hes going to give GSP problems should get their head cheaked.
By that logic, Koscheck’s wrestling is a giant hole in his game because GSP took him down at will. Johnson won a JUCO national championship in college, and getting taken down by Koscheck doesn’t mean he has problems with wrestling—it just means he ran into a better wrestler.
The more immediate problem is his submission defense—both of his legit losses have been by RNC.
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