The REAL Controversy at UFC 106
by MMAEruption on Nov 22, 2009 7:54 PM EST
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PrintGonna keep this one short and sweet:
There's some minor grumbling out there about the judging of the Forrest/Tito fight, whether Tito's back and skull were in fighting shape, not to mention the wacky stuff that happened in the Koscheck/Rumble fight.
But nobody's talking about the REAL controversy at UFC 106 - the fact that Josh Koscheck received the submission of the night award.
Kendall Grove's lightning-fast, come-from-behind triangle choke finish of Jake Rosholt was WAY more impressive than Kos' comparatively boring rear-naked choke of Anthony Johnson. Koscheck simply muscled a worn-out Rumble to get the choke. I don't see how anyone can deny that Kendall's finish was both far more technical and exciting than Koscheck's, and just plain cooler to see.
I would also argue that George Sotiropolous' armbar submission of Jason Dent was way more impressive than Kos' RNC.
Maybe Josh has pics of Dana White dancing around in ladies' underpants, but there's no way he deserved to win submission of the night over Kendall or George.
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George’s setup was ridiculous. Swim – spider – arm crush – bar. Not to mention his top control and passing that got him in position. He’s becoming a favorite – just needs to fight a true jedi master. I wanna see how he fares against another strong grappler.
George deserves to fight a bigger name after four wins in a row. Maybe if Mac Danzig comes back for one more shot, they could put that fight on.
George is crazy good.
He’s just all work. Busy busy busy. He wants that arm and he’s going to get it in three moves.
Would love to see him against another jits-head. Dent looked like a 14-year-old being rolled around by a schoolyard bully. Just wasn’t a factor.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
I personally felt that Sotiropolous was a lock for submission of the night
Grove’s is up there for sure, but from a technical BJJ stance, Sotiropolous set up that armbar with some extremely high level BJJ utilizing a move (bicep crusher) that most fighters never even try to attempt. From a technical level, Grove or Sotiropolous had way better submissions. The thing with Koscheck’s is that Johnson pretty much gave Koscheck his back, and Johnson did not even fight the choke. Also, Koscheck only hooked him with one leg. Koscheck’s wasn’t very technical, and I personally feel that he should not have gotten Submission of the Night.
Most don’t attempt bicep slicers because it’s not a high percentage submission.
And after rewatching the match, I would also say the “extremely high level BJJ” is most evidenced in his composure than in the technique used, which any blue would be more than familiar with.
I would also say the "extremely high level BJJ" is most evidenced in his composure than in the technique used, which any blue would be more than familiar with
Isn’t it sort of a BJJ truism that high level BJJ lies mostly in perfecting the basics? What Roger Gracie pulled off at the last Mundials would have been familiar to most any blue belt too, right?
(I don’t train.)
by JRN on Nov 22, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this, this, this
the high rank BJJ players excel in the ability to apply these techniques on the fly, and in the ability to chain techniques one after the other.
everyone knows how to move the pieces in chess, very few know how to use strategy to checkmate someone.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Nov 23, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Bingo.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Nov 23, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on the competition. Often illegal in gi competition but legal in no-gi.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Makes sense
I train at Ralph Gracie. 99% of rolling is gi-on. I had a slicer applied to me and the guy who did it almost got his head torn off by a brown belt.
BOOSH
You’re not crazy. There was nothing at all special about Koscheck’s choke. Both Grove’s triangle and Sotiropoulos’s armbar (the latter being my personal pick) were far more deserving.
There’s really no rhyme or reason to the “of the night” awards sometimes. I don’t think Koscheck/Johnson was Fight of the Night either. My pick for that was Thiago/Volkmann.
by JRN on Nov 22, 2009 8:33 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Of the Night awards are popularity contests with unknown criteria and voters.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Nov 22, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Voters aren’t unknown. In fact, I think there’s only one ‘voter’. Dana White.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Nov 23, 2009 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Probably
but there may be a Fertitta involved somewhere, sometimes.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Its the DW bonus
Since your giving a big bonus its better from his perspective to pay the best fighters more while still providing motivation for the little guys if they do something exceptional.
didn’t dana basically say he gave him the bonus because he didn’t call it a night after the illegal (depending who ask) knee strike? crowd would not have been happy if that happened, and i’m guessing that means more to dana than technical (albeit impressive) submissions do.
didn’t dana basically say he gave him the bonus because he didn’t call it a night after the illegal (depending who ask) knee strike?
That would be strange reasoning for a couple of reasons. First, because the knee actually landed on Koscheck’s arm (not that that excuses Johnson for throwing it), and second, because Koscheck subsequently threw a couple illegal strikes of his own. How… courageous of him?
by JRN on Nov 22, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
technically, nothing ever fucking touches anything, atoms are just repelled by electric charge when they come too close to other atoms, so there’s never a foul, there’s never contact, noone ever hits anyone, life is an illusion, and we only percieve one billionth of reality
god forbid someone put a hand up when a knee is headed straight for their face.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Nov 23, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
god forbid someone put a hand up when a knee is headed straight for their face.
???
I’m not faulting Koscheck for blocking that knee. I’m just saying there’s nothing terribly commendable about not calling it a night because of a knee strike that you blocked.
agreed on it not being commendable, just tired of the other arguements going on that the blow was legal because kos defended himself.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Well, except that “intent” isn’t what makes a strike an illegal one or not. What makes it illegal is what actually happens — you knee someone in the head when they are down = “illegal” but you attempt to knee someone in the head when they are down and connect to the arm, body, etc. and not the head = “not illegal.”
It’s not really even an argument about whether it’s legal or illegal if it, in fact, did not connect with his head, is it?
I think the argument is more about the spirit of the law than the letter. Koscheck was clearly down and Johnson clearly intended the knee for his head.
If a fighter were in the turtle position with their hands covering their head—after a failed takedown attempt, say, anticipating punches—and their opponent started throwing knees toward their head, but the knees technically only hit the hands, would they have any real justification in claiming those blows were legal? Would any ref in the world let them do it? Any competent ref, that is?
Actually, that’s accepted scientific theory. The charge of the atoms repels them, fundamentally preventing things from truly “touching” as we understand it. However, given the amount of empty space in existence, the distance between “touching” atoms is negligible. It’s a curiosity for people who don’t work on the sub-atomic level.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 23, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
yes i know it is but its still retarded. u wouldnt be able to feel ridges in objects, objects wouldnt cut you.. etc. but this is an mma website not a science theories site so yeahh.
You'll have to excuse him
He has only just returned from feeding his horse, after competeing in the jousting tournament to win the hand of the fair maiden.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Nov 24, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
this article summed up my thoughts perfectly. George and Kendall were way more deserving. Especially when Kos was already in on the fotn bonus. Dana should spread the wealth a little, Kos wasnt THAT impressive. 2 bonus!? wtf
Also, I think Ben Saunders should have gotten the Ko of the night. Little Nogs performance was awesome, and his ko was pretty cool, But Saunders Ko was way more devastating. and he was a 2-1 underdog.
Because you think it’s “the REAL controversy,” or because you think it should have gotten FOTN or something?
I still haven’t seen that fight (it seems to be the one fight on the card basically nobody besides the live audience saw), so I can’t comment on the decision, other than to say I’m disappointed that it was a draw because of a point deduction and not because the judges actually awarded a 10-10 or 10-8 round.
I know this is supposed to be about submission of the night
and i LOVED Nogs KO, but I kinda felt Saunders deserved KO of the night, those knees were brutal and he was the first person to finish Davis.
Much as I love Rogerio and am happy for him, I think that’s a legitimate gripe as well.
The bummer about all this is that the people the bonuses should have gone to not only deserved them more, but also probably need the money more.
I guarantee Ben Saunders, Kendall Grove, George Sotiropoulos, Paulo Thiago, and Jacob Volkmann all have way lower base pay than Josh Koscheck or Rogerio (maybe not A.J.). And Koscheck got two bonuses. Give me a break.
by JRN on Nov 22, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At least the Nog/Saunders argument has arguments on both sides. I have yet to hear from anyone who can defend why Kos’ choke was JUST SO AWESOME!!!111
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Agreed. Snuffleupagus should’ve gotten sub of the night; that was some slick BJJ work right there.
by Verklemptomaniac on Nov 22, 2009 11:23 PM EST reply actions
You think Dana White is going to award Kendall Grove bonus money than you are crazy. Kendall Grove is lucky he still has a contract in the UFC. Even with a win he’s still probably next on the chopping block.
6-3 in the UFC
I know people hate the guy but I think he’s deserves much more respect then he’s given. His chin sucks but he can hang with most people besides that.
He shouldn’t be lucky to be in the UFC, he usually puts on an exciting fight win or lose.
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fuckin truth...
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
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by Damon O. on Nov 23, 2009 12:19 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
we need a gif of the whole sotiropoly sequence, not just the ender
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
^^ agreed
That gif makes it look like your standard armbar. The lead up was very impressive.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
George’s submission was easily the submission of the night. I don’t get why so many are voting for Grove’s easy triangle.
The feint armbar to triangle that he slapped on oh-so-perfectly after an escape from an arm triangle? Oh, yeah, just an easy triangle, right…
Thats one way to look at it
one could also say that he went for an armbar, realized it was the wrong arm, so easily threw his leg over Rosholts waiting head.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Bonus points for submitting a better fighter?
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by Richard Wade on Nov 25, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
kos deserves extra cash for stepping in to save yet another card..
so im not against him getting the bonus… (plus, his fight was the most meaningful among the three)
And, I’ll add this: he probably doesn’t need to pay Kendall Grove, Thiago Silva, or Saunders a bonus to keep them in the UFC at their pay bases, but Koscheck’s name value, big mouth, and rankings make him a higher flight risk, so this is another way to pacify him and keep him around.
Being overrated is overrated.
But isn’t it generally accepted that the UFC doles out additional off-the-books bonuses backstage? Why not just give Koscheck one of those if they need to pacify the dude?
Really, what is the point of having these bonuses if they’re not actually going to give them to the best fight, knockout, and submission?
I suppose they could write up a contract that says “if you put up a bad ass fight and win, we’ll give you $X” but my sense is that the bonuses go to the people who help out the UFC the most — not necessarily who deserves it from our POV, or who could “use” the month, financially. And think we can all agree that Koscheck really helped out the UFC with this fight, and beat a guy most thought would crush him. Eye poke or not, Koscheck fought this well.
Personally, I think the FOTN bonus is warranted. It was the fight I most wanted to see, and it had a bit of controversy, momentum shifts, and had me on the edge of my chair. I really believed Rumble would beat him and skyrocket to the top 5 in the WW division, making us talk about a fight with Fitch or GSP/Hardy. But Koscheck pulled it off.
The SOTN bonus deserved to go to somebody else, but again, I think what I said in the earlier post probably caused the UFC to give it to Koscheck. Perhaps the fact that they announced the Hardy GSP match-up that night – and knew it would infuriate Koscheck – gave them an extra reason to find a way to make him happy.
Being overrated is overrated.
Clearly Kendall and George’s submissions were better, but Dana has his little awards that he dangles like carrots. He uses the award to keep his fighters in check. Tow the company line, look after Big Daddy Zuffa and u get paid. Win in wicked fashion and show great skill………..they might keep you around.
Does he really need to pay extra to AKA guys?
Considering he’s so often made with the big talk about killing their camp?
I’m sure Kos will take Jon Fitch out for pizza.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
It’s all about the context of the fight for me — say someone is getting mauled and pulls something out their ass, that will triumph a highly technical submission in my book. With that said I still think Grove deserved the bonus – it was particularly weird considering Kos had already been awarded FOTN (which also served as a good boy bonus to Rumble for making weight and not being awarded KO of the night in his last outing).
Bloody hell.
Groves submission??
You mean, when Rosholt said, “omg he’s going for a submission, I better tap quick!” The guy was tapping even before the sub was sunk.
George deserved it.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Nov 23, 2009 11:06 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Well, in Jake's defense
if you’ve ever been put in a very tight triangle, it makes you feel like your head is about to pop off. And with the kind of leverage Kendall is working with (as well as the awkward, bent over position Rosholt was in), it’s not too surprising that he tapped.
I initially voted for the Grove sub because of the drama of the fight- how back and forth, and high paced it was, and then the lightning quick submission from Kendall right after being threatened by an arm- triangle. But, after thinking about it, even though Dent was overmatched and Sotiropolous ran a positional train on him, his submission was much more impressive. The setup, x- break, and control George exhibited while executing the armbar so flawlessly was admirable.
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by ElliotMatheny on Nov 23, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. There was no way in hell that Rosholt was getting out of that. He couldn’t even try to stack Grove because he had his legs caught under himself. He literally had no defence. Tap or pass out, and he was damn close to passing out as it was.
And I literally went from “hey now” to “holy shit!” to “OH FUK!!!” watching the Soti submission, starting with him rolling across the back to trap the arm.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
The REAL controversy is...
what did Koschek do behind the scenes? He had to have done something to get the undeserved Fight of the Night, and the undeserved Sub of the Night from Dana.
The fight itself was ridiculously goofy, and the sub was standard. I give full credit to Josh for the win, but he deserved neither of those bonuses.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
I think it’s pretty clear what he did behind the scenes.
He stepped up on short notice to save the card. AGAIN. It is becoming a habit with Koscheck. Anytime the UFC needs a main card fight on short notice, Koscheck is their go-to guy. He is getting rewarded for saving their bacon and making what was looking to be a terrible card into a pretty decent one.
I just wish that Kos
would stop this Jekyll & Hyde crap and put his foot down one way or the other on whether he deserves title consideration. He could be a superstar on par with any of the current titlists if he’d stop coming in with horrendous gameplans.
When he needs to wrestle, he strikes. When he needs to strike, he gets KO’d. Kinda silly.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I thought Koscheck’s post fight interview with Joe Rogan was bonus worthy but other than that I didn’t think he deserved FOTN or SOTN.
Just BE.
dana must have big plans for josh k. you think?
yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 25, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
I would have given SotN to Grove.
Personally, Sub of the Night would only ever go to a RNC when there was no other sub on the card. But beyond that, Kos’s sub was the least impressive of the three. And while George’s was great BJJ, it was against a guy with practically no grappling/BJJ skills.
Grove put an amazing triangle on a very accomplished wrestler, SotN bonus material in my book.
Actually Dent is a very good grappler.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Nov 23, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
BJ Penn’s rear-naked chokes can be pretty cool when he uses his legs to trap an opponent’s arm. And the Florian one was awesome because of those heel kicks to Kenny’s torso that NOBODY saw coming.
Not that it's my opinion
but you can base it on who subbed the toughest opponent. Looking at it that way there’s no doubt that Rumble is harder to submit (not neccessarily due to sub defense but because he’s a better overall fighter than Dent or Rosholt)
Kuwabara Kuwabara
That’s a good theory, but I don’t know if it holds up in practice. For example, Tom Lawlor got SOTN by submitting C.B. Dolloway at the same event (UFC 100) at which Jon Jones submitted Jake O’Brien. C.B. had displayed poor submission defense in the past; O’Brien had never been submitted. And JOB is certainly a higher caliber opponent.
Similarly, Dustin Hazelett got SOTN at UFC 91 for armbarring Tamdan McCrory, even though Demian Maia submitted Nate Quarry and Kenny Florian submitted Joe Stevenson on the same card.
Better should be replaced with more recognizable, and impactful fighter...
and CB was on TUF, giving him more spotlight than Jake… Anthony Johnson’s profile is much higher than that of Dent, or Rosholt, so Kos gets the sub bonus….
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Sotiropoulos and Grove both had a majority of their wins by submission before 106. Thus making Koschecks win by submission the least expected outcome. This is just one justification. The final say goes to Dana and not any sort of logical system. Dana of course loves playing favorites.
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