FightMetric Report for UFC 106: Ortiz vs. Griffin II
by Mike Fagan on Nov 22, 2009 9:42 AM EST
in MMA News
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Of all the controversies over judging the past few months, no single scorecard had my mouth fall to floor as Glenn Trowbridge's 29-28 Ortiz scorecard last night. I haven't been so puzzled by a scorecard since Tom Kaczmarek scored De La Hoya/Mayweather 115-113 for Oscar.
As noted in my post-fight recap, I scored the bout 30-26 for Griffin, with round 3 being the clear 10-8. I thought if any round went to Ortiz, it was round 2.
As usual, FightMetric released their report for the UFC 106 main event. FightMetric isn't a be-all, end-all on its own, but it does provide a solid resource for discussion. Under the ten-point must system, FightMetric scores the bout 29-27. For the entire fight, the FightMetric Effective Score gave Griffin the advantage 294-137.
Round by round scoring as follow (Effectiveness Scores underneath each fighter, ten-point must system to the right):
| Griffin | Ortiz | TPM | |
| Round 1 | 69 | 56 | 10-9 G |
| Round 2 | 51 | 67 | 10-9 O |
| Round 3 | 175 | 13 | 10-8 G |
| Total | 294 | 137 | 29-27 G |
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29-28 Griffin is what I thought.
Forrest didn’t dominate any round enough for any 10-8’s.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Round 3: Griffin lands 41 strikes, Ortiz lands 5. The only grappling was Forrest avoiding both of Tito’s weak shots.
That’s a 10-8 round to me
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 22, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
I could go along with that had Forrest
Actually done any noticeable damage. He didn’t knock Tito down or really even buckle him in round 3.
I can’t think of any boxing examples where 10-8’s happen without knockdowns.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
It’s a good thing this isn’t boxing.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Nov 22, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't think of many MMA rounds that went 10-8
without a knockdown.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
The same thing Rich Franklin does..
…whenever he thinks he won the first two.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Can you find me a fight where Franklin has only thrown 5 strikes in the last round, I can’t think of any off hand.
Roy Nelson threw 50 strikes on Kimbo.
I don’t think any of them could have broken the skin on warm milk.
Franklin’s a clockwatcher, and I think that’s what Tito was doing in round three. He figured he had the victory if he just stayed alive.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Doesn't matter...
it’s unfair to say that a guy with little power can’t win a 10-8 round.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 22, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I said it was domination on points so if you had 10-8 there’s an argument for it… I was just pointing out that it amounted to being dominated on points with a pillow.
Nothing damaging or overwhelming and whether it’s right or wrong judges do consider those 2 factors when considering a 10-8 round.
Griffin wasn’t overwhelming in the third round, wat?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Cane/Rothwell was overwhelming. When Im on the patio with my laptop and a fly is bothering me as I type this ( he lands on me 50 times before I can swat him)…. That’s not overwhelming, it’s annoying.
Tito was just trying to get through the fight and someone happened to be circling around him throwing pillows while he was waiting for the clock to countdown. It was more annoying than overwhelming.
“To defeat completely and decisively”
The disparity in strikes in round 3 was certainly overwhelming.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Unfortunately judges dont look at the fight based on a piece of paper with numbers… they actually watch the fight.
Dictionary.com
1. to overcome completely in mind or feeling: overwhelmed by remorse.
2. to overpower or overcome, esp. with superior forces; destroy; crush: Roman troops were overwhelmed by barbarians.
Round 3 was nothing of the sort… Forrest wasnt even close to finishing the fight. Forrest didnt overwhelm Tito by mind or feeling (ie: knocked down or knocked out as per the 1st definition above)… and Tito was not destroyed, crushed or overpowered by forrest (as per the second definition above).
He was a guy with a long lay off waiting for the clock to finish counting down while being peppered from the outside with pillows.
He got outstruck 41-5. Five strikes is an absolutely anemic offensive output.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
41 Forrest strikes that hardly did anything
Not 1 of those 41 had much quality behind them. This is the argument of sleeping with five 2’s to claim you slept with a 10.
“Not 1 of those 41 had much quality behind them.”
What does this mean?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
If he had done all that
and gotten a close submission attempt, I would have given him the round 10-8. As it stood, he dominated yes, but he didn’t ever seem close to finishing the fight, so I’d give it to him 10-9.
No matter, 29-28 is still a win
Straight from the Unified Rules:
" 3. A round is to be scored as a 10-8 Round when a contestant overwhelmingly dominates by striking or grappling in a round."
If you can tell me where in there it says you have to be close to finishing the fight, I would be much obliged.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
That's a good point
I’ve just noticed that I see judges awarding 10-8 rounds when one fighter comes very close to ending the fight, so I’m not surprised he got it 10-9
I kinda disagree with this in principle,,,
If he lacks the power to put a serious stamp on the round, his game shouldn’t be centered completely around striking on the feet..
But, personally I thought Tito did so litle that Forrest gettin a 10-8 round isn’t necessarilly out of the question,
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
I could care less… this was a useless fight. The real fights were Kos/Johnson and ugly nog vs cane everything else was window dressing.
If you could care less then you obviously care since there are other things that you care less about.
by !claw on Nov 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
most of us could give a crap about grammar in figures of speech
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
From a hopeful writer:
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 22, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
when judges get it wrong people bitch and when judges get it right people bitch.
The reality is when you have close rounds people will bitch no matter who wins.
It would take an act of god to fix the judging so it’s better that fighters and fans live with it and more importantly conform their fighting styles and strategies to it.
whole fight judging is not possible because of the gaming issues. Going to half points like 9.5 will also not work as these idiots cant even understand whole numbers let alone the amount of draws this set up would produce
I thought 1 and 2 could have went to Ortiz, the first was pretty close with Tito getting the takedown. I thought 30-27 Forrest was pretty off because I didn’t see how Tito lost round 2. And there are rarely ever 10-8 rounds in MMA. Unless Kalib Starnes is fighting or there is a point deduction, there are rarely 10-8 rounds.
Agreed
That is the situation that you get with the 10 point must system.
You could give rounds 1 and 2 to Tito based on takedowns and top control.
Just because Forrest wins striking in round 3, doesn’t cancel out rounds 1 and 2.
I’d argue that Mr. Fagan’s 30-26 was FAR more egregious than Glen Trowbridge’s 28-27 Ortiz.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Nov 22, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
How about neither?
I watched the fight 3 times.
I scored first and third rounds for Forrest and second round for Tito. But The first and second rounds were somewhat close and the third round had me thinking 10-8, but not quite.
anything from
30-26 Forrest to 29-28 Ortiz seem within the realm of reasonable.
We need a scoring system that has more shades of gradation. 10-9 and 10-8 are really just 1-0 and 2-0. How about anything from 1-5 for the winner of the round and 0 for the loser and 1-1 draw rounds being acceptable in many even rounds where there isn’t a clear winner.
And some sense of points and the relative worth of actions (submission attempts, takedowns, reversals, power shots vs regular strikes, etc.) Leaving it up in the air and so highly objective is not making things better.
Boxing is a TERRIBLE example to follow for scoring.
It is rare that I don't purchase a UFC PPV event.
I am really glad I didn’t pay for this PPV. The only fights that sounded good were the Kos/Johnson eye poke fest and the Lil Nog/Cane first round dismantlement. I would like to see some photos of the Amir/Baroni fight though.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
Exactly, if you are one of the many that think the UFC did something good you are a sheep, but if you are one of the many that think the UFC is evil and sucks you are a super original thinker.
by Phildo on Nov 22, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
tbh i thought it was a great card.
saunders was awesome
amir putting on a clinic was fun to watch
lil nog with some slick boxing
koscheck was impressive and the call out at the end adds some spice to the division
and finally tito getting a reality check
who cares if its the biggest stars possible on a card, if every fight has massive title implications or every person acts in the preconceived notion that ppl expect
tito’s tantrum was funny. it got the crowd fired up and at the end of the day it only hurts tito. everything doesnt need to be a polite clap and hand shake. stuff that draws out emotion from the crowd is great
i put this card in the same basket as 105. the lesser names put on a great show and it was fun to watch. mma doesnt always have to be serious business. watching 2 guys lay it out there or a guy display his skills should be enough regardless of name, stature or position in the division
Round 1 was closer than what I thought, but I gave it to Tito live, Round 2 I gave it to Tito, ROund 3 I had it 10-8, and I had it a draw at the end, I was shocked by Tito losing.
by "Mr. NC-17" on Nov 22, 2009 11:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I hate the peripheral criteria in the Unifed Rules (and there will be a post on this later in the week), but they should be considered as well. Forrest defended one of four takedowns during the first round and was the aggressor for the majority of the round. That’s fighting area control and agression.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
By that rationale...
..Sean Sherk has never lost a round.
He’s always coming forward, even when he’s eating fists. He defends takedowns, so that he can continue to stand and eat more fists.
Sherk FTW?
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Terrible comparison because Forrest didn’t stand and eat fists.
Getting taken down doesn’t mean you lost the round. This isn’t a wrestling competition.
BUT…… with the mma scoring is, if you practically get a takedown and throw shots from top guard for a minute you 85% of the time win the round, and you cant disagree with that.
by "Mr. NC-17" on Nov 22, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
You’re disregarding the other effective offense from Griffin. I’m not claiming Forrest won the round strictly on those merits.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I'm not.
I’m saying for his last few fights, Sherk was evidencing cage control and aggression while getting his clock cleaned. So, for mine, those two things by themselves aren’t enough to hand someone a round.
But then, lay’n’prayers like Guida usually get the round for exactly that so maybe I’m 100% wrong.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
I personally feel that a takedown and top control are at times awarded too much. Like Fagan said, Forrest defended one of four takedowns in the first round. I don’t think that being on top for a minute or two and then losing the standup for the rest of the round should warrant a win of the round for the fighter who got the one takedown.
by chrisbboy82 on Nov 22, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I had it 19-28 Ortiz as well, but Round 1 was a swing bout, I think it could of went to Forrest based on striking and being the agressor and it could of went to Tito for takedown and top control. I PROMISE YOU if this was Randy Couture, he would of been awarded the round.
Round 2, I thought CLEARLY was for Tito Ortiz. Look at the Marcus Davis/Dan Hardy fight, Dan Hardy did huge damage to Davis from a top control elbow, and was awarded the round, Tito did the same, and he won this round.
Round 3, I had it 10-8 Forrest. But Forrest did not dominate Tito, because that would mean Tito actually tried, Tito just stood there and took damage, I mean 13 strikes… Sorry, if we give Kalib Starnes a 10-8 round for running while injured, Tito should be given a 10-8 for inactivity.
My score card had it 28-28
by "Mr. NC-17" on Nov 22, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
I thought it couldve went
29-28 either way and wouldnt have been suprised with either of them winning.. Didnt consider the 3rd round a 10-8 either..
I certainly was shocked(and so was everyone watching the fight where I was) of the 30-27 Griffin call though and 30-26 for Griffin is just absurd.
by TennesseeTopTeam on Nov 22, 2009 11:52 AM EST reply actions
indeed, I think the 30-27 was one of the most shocking things, and I think that really really pissed me off, because Tito CLEARLY won round 2. I was fine with it going to Forrest via split, but 30-27 is just terrible judging.
by "Mr. NC-17" on Nov 22, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I had it 29-28 Ortiz.
Round one was a coin flip.
Round two was Tito time.
Round three was all Forrest but he did nothing with it, so 10-9 to him.
Sure, Tito did nothing but the fact is he didn’t have to do anything. If he had himself ahead on points (and many of us did), then staying back and not getting killed is sound strategy to see the fight out.
And Griffin didn’t force him to do otherwise.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
It’s seems like sound strategy, but since each round is judged on it’s own, that strategy doesn’t automatically give him 9 points in the round.
No question. And I might add...
…I have no problem with anyone giving Griffin the last round 10-8, or the first round 10-9. They call them judges because they use their own judgment.
I just think it’s weird as heck to suggest that giving Tito two rounds of that fight is somehow akin to giving Machida victory over Rua.
In the grand scheme of MMA judging fiascos, this doesn’t rate.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Yea, I’m not surprised people scored the first 2 for ortiz, i didn’t but I get it.
I just hate the idea that the last one couldn’t be 10-8 because Forrest didn’t do enough. It’s a 2 way street, if you do nothing in a round you shouldn’t get 9 points. I don’t think that 10-8 is solely based on what the winner of the round does. A round should be 10-8 based on the loser doing nothing just as easily as it can be based on the winner dominating.
Like you, I could see that being the case.
It wouldn’t be for me. I really think if a guy is camping out, eating time, you need to go after him and make him pay. Griffin didn’t.
Take round three of Baroni and Sadollah as a good example. Sadollah had the fight won, but he still came in and battled Baroni inside hard, risking being caught with a boomer.
That’s a round I’d give 10-8, even though Baroni did more than Ortiz did.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
If you’re going to say round one was a coinflip, you have to say the same thing for round two.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Nov 22, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't "have to" at all.
Tito dominated. Forrest got on top of him briefly, but the rest of that round was down to Tito.
Round one? Feh, battle of the love taps.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
I’m not sure how you can see Tito “dominated” round 2.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Round 1 and Round 2 were close enough according to the Fightmetric where they could go to either guy. A 29-28 Tito decision isn’t completely out of the question if you just look at these stats round by round. I think the evidence you have used to support your argument here does not support it as much as you think it does.
I think when you combine the other facets of the judging criteria, it’s very difficult to make an argument that Tito won round 1.
I have no problem with scoring round 2 for Ortiz, obviously.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I agree. I scored it very similar to what Fight Metric did, but I am surprised no one is talking about the 30-27. That was just ridiculous and the real controversy here. How can three judges all score exactly different from one another and one judge clearly show they did not attend the fight? I am guessing that judge was watching the Pacquiao (SP?) fight on his mini tv and then when the card needed to be submitted went …. “oh yah, and wrote down all 10’s on griffin and 9’s on Ortiz” … Here you go.
To me, it could have either been 30-27 Forrest or 29-28 Tito. I think the best score was probably 29-28 Forrest. Anyway, maybe we’re all complaining a little too much about this? Its judging, people’s opinions will vary. i think the right guy won, the pro-Ortiz score wasn’t unreasonable, if a little unlikely, so why do we care so much?
I was there live...
And I scored it 28-28 with rounds 1 and 2 going to tito and round 3, 10-8 for forrest.
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