UFC 106 Analysis: Tito Ortiz Is Still the Same Guy After All (and Other Assorted Thoughts)
by Michael Rome on Nov 22, 2009 1:14 AM EST
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Tito Ortiz is still good enough to appear competitive. But he was outclassed tonight. He lost every round on my card, though the second was admittedly close. He was out of gas in the third round, waited way too long to shoot, and when he did couldn't get the takedown.
Ortiz made people believe that if he just got rid of his injuries he'd be back to dominant form. It was always nonsense; his game is too predictable, he has a double and some nice inside elbows, but that's about it. He opened up Forrest with one, which isn't much of an accomplishment given Forrest's scar tissue.
It's unclear where to go next with Ortiz. He could fight the Couture/Coleman winner, though I don't think he could beat Couture now anymore than he could when they first fought. Another option is to put him on The Ultimate Fighter opposite Chuck Liddell. Both guys are obviously planning to fight again, it would do big ratings, and neither one is relevant at 205 at this point.
Forrest showed no signs of being mentally broken tonight. Many assumed his unwillingness to talk about the Anderson fight and his odd behavior suggested he had mental issues. What people didn't take into account was the possibility that he knew no words could explain what happened, and that the only thing he could really do was train hard and jump back on the wagon.
Josh Koscheck got a nice win by using his wrestling. It says something about Georges St. Pierre that Koscheck was able to take down a JUCO national champion so easily. There's no reason to do Hardy-Koscheck; this is already a division with no contenders, why eliminate one? I'd like to see Koscheck-Alves 2. If Koscheck can beat Alves, then he's really earned himself a shot.
The final big story of the night was Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. He made a big statement with his win tonight, icing a guy whose chin looked like iron before he met his demise this evening. It's always risky to take shots because you believe in your chin, because that strategy eventually hits a brick wall for everyone. Tonight it did for Cane. Nogueira may only be a win away from title contention, and he's stated he is willing to fight Lyoto Machida. Who's next for him? Fights with Forrest Griffin, Rich Franklin, and Brandon Vera are all appealing options.
I think this show may have marked the end of Tito Ortiz's drawing power. I'm a strong believer in the theory that the impact of losses on drawing ability is overstated, but he was exposed in a big way tonight, and his tantrum after the fight was just embarrassing. Though I'll concede people may hate him enough after that fight that they'll pay to see him get beat up.
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He beat him up pretty bad. Forrest just doesn’t have the standing power to finish most guys.
by Michael Rome on Nov 22, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
He does cumulative damage. He hurt Shogun enough to put him away, and he hurt Jackson. He’s able to slow guys down over time, gas them, and outpoint them. This isn’t the sport of making your opponent feel pain. He’s successful within the rules.
by Michael Rome on Nov 22, 2009 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
I agree he does it over time with cumulative damage but sometimes it takes too long or there are few fighters it appears he cannot damage. I always go back to the Evans fight, he dominated rounds 1 & 2 but put zero wear and tear on Evans. Evans caught him with one shot was still fresh to put Forrest away in the 3rd. Outside leg kicks, Forrest can’t put much damage on an upper tier fighter. Tito played a punching bag the 3rd round and Forrest didn’t do much damage to him.
I don’t want to remove too much credit from Forrest for his awesome upset victory over Shogun – but finishing Shogun probably had as much to do with Shogun’s terrible cardio/under-estimating Forrest than it did from any damage/hurt that Forrest put on him….I mean obviously Forrest did things to wear out Shogun, but the horrible cardio was a big factor.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
As much as it is a meaningless fight Chuck beating Tito after a season of TUF would give him a ton of momentum in the eyes of casual fans. That fight could pull 800-900K buys.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Really?
The first two did in the 650-700k range no? I highly doubt there’s any way that these two guys can pull a BIGGER buyrate at this point in their careers vs. when they were two of the biggest stars in the sport.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Do you not think there are 2-3 times as many mma fans as there were back then? Brock, ufc 100, TUF with Kimbo, there are so many more people watching the sport now that I think it could easily get that many buys, keeping in mind I said after a season of coaching TUF.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What about some love for Saunders?
Ortiz will still be a draw. He’s popular from stints in and out of the UFC, puts on decent fights, and doesn’t give up. I question whether his injuries really affected his (in)ability to box, kick, etc.; he’s pretty much a uni-dimensional fighter.
Being overrated is overrated.
What do you mean out of the ufc? His commentating at Affliction?
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I could have been clearer: media exposure through the Apprentice, the rag mags, marrying Jenna, etc. His mouth polarizes people. To the extent it hasn’t yet happened, he’ll become the quintessential heel.
Being overrated is overrated.
I see, I think he’ll still be a big draw too but it’s pretty obvious he needs to be thrown in the old guy division with guys like Hughes and Coleman as it’s pretty clear he won’t contend for the title again.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
shogun’s first fight back he looked like a joke fighting mark coleman. 2 fights later hes beating a fighter they said was the new era of mma. Let tito shake off the ring rust in 2 more fights we can say if hes done or not.
I agree that Tito has ringrust, but he should have said that instead of going the injury excuse again. Even after Shogun beat Coleman in a not so impressive manner, he said he was back 100% and just had ring rust. Tito was saying he was back 100% and never felt better, and makes a complete 180 after the decision. He should just keep things consistent.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Ring rust or not he’s still the same fighter he always was just older. He doesn’t have the skills to compete with today’s upper echelon fighters.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
PPV
i certainly may re-think buying another PPV if they do prelims on Spike. Not a huge fan of paying $55 to watch 3 fights i saw a few hours before. that was certainly dissapointing
by mo dogg on Nov 22, 2009 1:34 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I thought it was a great card. Lots of finishes, lots of fights, some really good ones too. I don’t know what the problem is beyond them replaying the spike fights.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Nov 22, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's a pretty big problem, IMO.
If you’re giving those away for free, and presumably your PPV people are watching them earlier, then replaying them means part of what you paid for is taken away. Why couldn’t we see some of the untelevised card?
Not to mention, talk about sucking the excitement out of the room – you’re amped up after Killa B put forth the knees of doom, and then they go play a fight you watched an hour ago?
The room I was in half emptied as folks went to the restroom, outside for a smoke, to the bar for drinks, etc.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
yeah, this was what i meant to say. i liked the card, but why would they show those fights instead of Uno’s.
It actually worked out pretty well where I was. We had twenty to thirty people over and not all of them got there before six.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Nov 22, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Really? I enjoyed the hell out of that card.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Nov 22, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
This is a ridiculous statement.
What would you rather do with that time? Watch the UFC 107 promotion? Watch Chuch shadowbox in the stands?
They showed every fight but one, and I don’t think they’re going to show very many draws if they happen on the prelims.
by Phildo on Nov 22, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Then they need a few more fights on the card.
People won’t be happy paying $50 for something that’s free. A good 45 mins of the PPV were empty minutes due to the re-runs of the Spike fights.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
They originally had two more fights on the card. BROCKLESNAR and “do you even know who I am, bro?”
Guillotine.
You can't tell me they couldn't have convinced..
..a couple of ex-TUFers to come out on short notice.
Heck, Jason MacDonald would have turned up for nachos.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
That would be great if McDonald fought at 170.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’d like to see Koscheck-Alves 2. If Koscheck can beat Alves, then he’s really earned himself a shot.
I thought about this. Problem is, what happens if Alves wins? Does Alves get the shot? I hate doing the whole “If fighter A wins he gets a shot, but if B wins he still needs to prove himself.” It just seems so unfair.
Easy, if Alves wins he fights Fitch for next title shot.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's the same thing I thought of
But it’s still doing the thing I said I wanted to avoid, since if Kos wins, he’d probably just get the shot directly.
Yeah but you can’t really justify a title shot with one win for Alves as badly as he lost to GSP. It might not be ideal but with all the injuries and such lately it’s the best way to go.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 1:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
found this quote from stupp interesting:
While most on press row felt Ortiz took the first two rounds, Griffin, propelled by a dominant third round, earned the split-decision win via scores of 29-28, 30-27 and 28-29.
Looks like most people on the press row were high
"Fear not for God is with you, truly who should you fear?"- Ali
by xAtlasx on Nov 22, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You seriously couldn't fathom giving Tito round one?
To me, that’s high.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
AKA vs AKA
I think we may see Dana start actively forcing AKA fighters to compete against each other. With all the injuries in the company, the lack of options at WW created by AKA’s massive staffing of the division creates a bigger headache for Dana White. He’ll start shaking things up.
even if they leave...
Fitch and Kos would chasing be Shields. How’s that going to play out and would anyone care in the long run? I see GSP just moving up in weight anyway via boredom.
lyoto vs little nog
I thought they didn’t want to fight each other?!
by cagefightonacid on Nov 22, 2009 1:43 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Tito is a dying breed
much like Hughes and Couture who can no longer rely on their wrestling alone to win and don’t have the advanced standup to fall back on. Chuck and Wandy are at that point too but in reverse.
Embarrasing PPV for the UFC
The undercard fights were fine, I don’t have an issue other than not being my favorite crop of fighters (for the most part). Ok, Phil Baroni finishing the fight with anyone in the UFC is embarrassing let alone a TUF champion.
I’m referring the Tito post fight speech were he said he had about half a sparring session to prepare for the fight and than Forrest jumps in to back his story up. Anyone paying to watch this PPV does not want to hear this, especially when the sales pitch leading up the fight was Tito back to full health. Really, a few people I watched the fight with felt conned. Could have just been Tito being a gas bag again but again Forrest goes onto to say how injured Tito was . . . oh and Tito was only prepared to fight the corpse that was Mark Coleman. Nice, what an organization to follow.
Are you a UFC hater or what?
If the PPV’s suck, in your opinion, dont watch. There are a lot of other things to do on a Saturday Night.
Look was the PPV perfect? No but I have seen much worse and I was glad I had mma to watch tonight.
Most people I was with enjoyed the fights. They really enjoyed Baroni/Sadollah and enjoyed watching Lil Nog ko Cane.
Did I think Ortiz should have just shut up and dealt with the fact that he lost? Yes but if that is really what you remember most from this PPV I dont understand how you can consider yourself an mma fan.
Really, I buy the card being told Tito is healthy enough to compete than Forrest even admits he knew Tito wasn’t healthy enough to compete . . . he can probably only handle Mark Coleman.
So two guys who were suppose to be the co-main event, get bumped up to the main event on separate cards and one guy is too injured to compete and the other guy is probably bad enough to get beat by the guy who is too injured I’m suppose to be satisfied with the current product?
Ya, I thought the product was filled with a lot of crap tonight. I’m going to bitch about . . . sorry about expecting a higher standard. I love your retort, SFTU and take it. I’m going to remember that one for any MMA show, you better never ever complain . . . ever. Outside two fights I’ve seen better on M-1 pissy little shows . . . which are free and don’t have to waste a Saturday night to watch them.
So dont watch then
It wasnt a great card but it wasnt nearly as horible as you make it out to be.
Your one of these people that gets off badmouthing the UFC. If this was a Strikeforce event same price same results you would have been talking how great the card was.
You can bitch all you want. All I’m telling you is that the majority of people though it was a decent night of fights considering.
You think the UFC wanted Lesnar pulling out? No but it happened and now instead of canceling shows they moved the co-main event to the main event and let people decide if they still wanted to order it.
Like I said if your fed up with the “crap” that the UFC keeps giving us then quit watching but my guess is your gonna be on here Dec. 12 talking about how 107 was the biggest waste of your time and money and then you’ll be back 1 week later talking about how the Strikeforce card was the best thing since sliced bread.
Your one of these people that gets off badmouthing the UFC. If this was a Strikeforce event same price same results you would have been talking how great the card was.
I see, I’m type casted, apparently stupid too because I cannot tell quality differences in fight cards. I used to get Phil Baroni for free and would still bitch about it. At least he would get KOed 150 seconds after his entrance (about the time he gasses), that was entertaining.
Yes, Lesnar pulled out. I wasn’t expecting an optimal card. However, I’m criticizing two headliners (Tito and Coleman) that maybe shouldn’t even be competing. Tito just about no contested the 3rd round and the guy he fought thought he shouldn’t even have to apologize over that little fact. That’s a legitimate bone to pick.
The product is bad. I’m not a Strikeforce fan, I enjoyed the last card but I’m not a fan. I’m a bitter UFC fan who was used to a better product presented 2-3 years ago.
I see where you’re comng from here and if you spent your money on this card and weren’t satisfied then you have every right to complain. But I will say that I think they are doing the best they can right now with the current string of injuries and just plain weird crap happening (Rampage quitting, Karo bitching out again). We know the UFC puts on the best fights so I say let’s try and cut them a little slack right now, here in a couple months when everyone gets healthy and hopefully guys like Hendo and Rampage will be back soon and everything will be back to normal.
by ufc4 on Nov 22, 2009 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If none of the big main eventers come through for 108 or 109, I have a suggestion: put in on Spike for free. I know that’s taking a big hit financially, but there’s risks in having lackluster cards on ppv. Either fans feel cheated they paid for it or if they choose to skip that card, they may get out of the habit of buying every card.
Now, if they were really smart they would have started bantam and feather divisions earlier this year so Mike Brown, Aldo, and Faber could have helped carry these cards.
by John Nash on Nov 22, 2009 2:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dude, back up.
He paid $50 to watch a fight that was sold as both at their best and turned out to be crock vs crock. He’s allowed to be pissed.
When they’re free, you shut up and take it. When they cost half a hundy, you make your annoyance known.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Nope.
You see he’s not “enlightened” enough to have enjoyed fights, and be cooler for saying so and thumbing his nose at these “UFC haters”. Those UFC haters, who hate the UFC so much they pay $50 and give 3-4hours of their time to watch the product.
A true fan would pay the $50, spend 3-4 hours watching and if they didn’t like it, STFU, because only a “hater” would open their mouth to complain if they weren’t satisfied. The true fans will just say they liked it, because a true fan stands by their product.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Then a true fan is an idiot.
It’s not “your product”, it’s Dana White’s. If you want to take anything he’s selling, fork out fifty for it and never expect anything in return, you’re not a ‘true fan’, you’re a sheep.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
You’re being ridiculously defensive with his comment, calling him a hater and a bad mma fan for making a valid point on the post fight (it WAS embarrassing, 100% injury free ortiz complaining about how he shouldn’t even be fighting tonight, c’mon)), I don’t understand. Is everyone having a bad day already?
10/24
if u can’t be entertained with a mix bag of subs, tko’s and decisions by some of the best athletes in the sport, u should rethink if your interest in mma. u can’t blame the ufc for Tito lying…
by cagefightonacid on Nov 22, 2009 5:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
If all you remember about this ppv is Tito’s postfight interview which I missed completelly because I could give a shit about what he has to say after losing I feel bad for you.
by Raker on Nov 22, 2009 3:27 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
serously.
This is tito ortiz. We should be smart enough not to listen to what he has to say by now. Especially when it’s right after he loses a fight.
For sure. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, what with his new back and all, but pretty much anything Tito says is hogwash. This was an entertaining card and I really don’t see how people could complain about it. There certainly have been worse.
I love me some Sexyama!
I don’t get the complaints either, I was thoroughly entertained all night.
Some fights were sloppy, but sloppy fights can be entertaining.
That Kos/Rumble fight was a bit of a disaster in terms of the number of timeouts, eye pokes, illegal shots…it looked like a Ric Flair match.
And was it just me or was there an inordinate amount of fouling going on…Brock Larson lost TWO points in one round for the love of god.
And I HATE HATE HATE this new found cheap tactic of, “Imma put one finger down to avoid any damage”. Something needs to be done about that shite loophole.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
And I HATE HATE HATE this new found cheap tactic of, "Imma put one finger down to avoid any damage". Something needs to be done about that shite loophole.
I was hoping Larson would win for that reason alone.
Guillotine.
I was pleasantly surprised by the card, although I did find the main event to be a pretty shitty fight.
by John Nash on Nov 22, 2009 2:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tito on his Twitter was saying that he felt he was robbed by the judges.
Man I feel kinda sorry for the guy, the crowd was mostly rooting for Forrest, and you could tell this was bugging Tito post fight. Tito is yesterdays star, tough realization for anyone. Guess he now knows how Ken shamrock felt.
by kanodogg on Nov 22, 2009 8:47 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Tito should expect this.
He’s a very polarising figure. He has a pretty big fanbase, but the guy’s basically a heel. Someone like him should thrive off boos.
Yeah but I get the feeling he doesn’t want to be the heel anymore… Tito of the old wouldve mocked Forrest for the Anderson fight heavily.
by kanodogg on Nov 22, 2009 10:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
he had a run forest run shirt on post fight
by mr. gogoplata on Nov 22, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Knew Tito wouldn’t win. Not really surprised by his performance or his usual litany of excuses. I don’t think this loss is the end of his drawing power. At least not yet. His fans are rabid and loyal, and I think it would take another straight loss or two to really see a noticeable decline in Tito’s ability to draw. I’m not sure where he goes from here though besides a probably inevitable Griffin/Ortiz III. Liddell/Ortiz III is possible, though damn if I don’t see the appeal of it since Tito has already dropped two fights against Chuck. I don’t see the point of another Ortiz/Couture either, though I guess it’d be fun to see Randy spank him again. In terms of fights Tito could possibly win, they could probably still book that fight w/ Coleman.
As for Forrest, unless they go straight into a Tito/Forrest III which I doubt, I’m not sure who he fights next. I keep thinking the winner of Thiago/Rashad might be a likely option.
I was rooting for Johnson, but thought Kos would pull off the win. Koscheck can call out Hardy all he wants. Let the Brit get beat up by the Canadian, and let Kos try and earn a title shot against someone else. Kos/Alves II would be interesting, but I’d much rather see Fitch/Alves II to be honest. Heh, maybe Kos can finally fight Swick since Josh kind of threw his teammate under the bus when he said Hardy hadn’t beaten anybody.
Was rooting for Rogerio, but I like how Cane fights too. Rogerio looked like he was on another level though. I think there are a LOT of possibilities when looking at who he fights next, and I agree that he might be only a win away from title contention if he’s serious about being willing to fight Lyoto(if Lyoto retains against Shogun of course…has that rematch been made official?). I personally like Rogerio/Couture as an option. As for Cane, I’d like to see him get a fight against Rich Franklin or Brandon Vera next. Vera in particular might be a good rebound fight for him.
Cane was just a bit over-rated by having big wins over some lower level or name fighters and he stepped up in competition to face a really dangerous and experienced fighter. I’m not sure if his “iron” chin was given too much credit or whether Lil Nog’s power is just that much better than people thought it was – but he shook up Cane on a couple of occasions and lit him up with some tight punching.
I don’t think Randy wants anything to do with Lil Nog – it might be an even worse beating than Big Nog dished out.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I think it’s probably a mix of both – Cane’s chin being given too much credit, and people underestimating Lil Nog’s standup. I’m not sure I’d consider Cane over-rated, but fighting Rogerio was a huge step up in competition for him.
I have to agree that Randy probably wants nothing to do w/ Rogerio, and would probably rather float into a spot where he fights the winner of Machida/Shogun II. I’d still like to see it though.
Yeah, I guess it’s unfair to just flat out say over-rated, he’s still a skilled fighter…I guess he’s just not “there” yet. I think a lot of people saw what he did and just kinda extrapolated out to where they thought he was going, but Lil Nog is some stiff competition…it’s too bad he smoked him out so early, because Cane might have been able to learn something in losing.
Welterweight is a "division with no contenders?"
Methinks Killa B would have something to say about that.
Kneelift! Kneelift! Kneelift! Huge grin! Kneelift!
Looks like Marcus Davis needs another trip to the plastic surgeon. Dude’s gonna have some scar tissue going forward.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
A couple of things.
One, I don’t think Titos drawing power is gone, but what I do think is the same thing that Forrest said at the end fo the fight, “he was trainging to fight Mark Colman”, so true. Coming of 18 months of not fighting and a back surgery Tito souldn’t have been in the octagon with anyone of Forrests level as his first match. I think much like Frank Mir it will take a 2-4 fights to get back to that “higher” level Tito used to be at. He can still draw as a second or third tier name on a card, and fights against Liddell, Couture, Forrest (rematch), and maybe a Evans rematch down the road will draw good numbers.
Second, I agree 100%, “I’d like to see Koscheck-Alves 2” as well. That would make for a good #1 contenders match, and a solid fight on any card.
Lastly is young Nog can put together a couple of more matches like last night, he will be in the ring with the LHWT holder in by the end of the year (in 2010). Nice fight and he has some solid hands.
That is my issue!
"he was trainging to fight Mark Colman", so true.
These guys are being sold as headline fighters, not tune ups. Cane vs Lil Nog is a real fight, promote that! Stick with the quality angle.
forrest basically lost that last decision due to one takedown in the final round of the first fight, you know that was in his mind. he came forward the whole time, but didn’t expose him to a hail mary tito takedown that got him down in the first 2 rounds at different points.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Nov 23, 2009 12:16 PM EST reply actions
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