The Hierarchy of MMA's Judging Criteria Should Be Emphasized
Last weekend's UFC 105 main event light heavyweight match-up between Randy "The Natural" Couture and Brandon "The Truth" Vera cemented itself as one of the tougher bouts to score from a judge's point of view during this year's long list of close decisions. Lyoto Machida vs. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua should be thrown in the mix as well as a recent bout that also spawned a lot of debate among fans, but the Couture vs. Vera decision focuses solely on a subject within the context of MMA's judging criteria that has hidden from criticism.
While most of the debates come down to certain exchanges landing and the value of specific strikes in opposition to other methods of scoring (i.e. the value of leg kicks versus jabs, takedowns vs. escapes), the hierarchy of the criteria used in judging a fight was the central issue at UFC 105. Per a discussion on the Sherdog forums back in 2007 regarding judging criteria, someone posted the criteria for judging MMA bouts when Marc Ratner was the head of the NSAC. We also had the discussion here. The root of the issue comes in the Criteria Evaluation:
If 90% of a round is grounded with one fighter on top, then:
- Effective Grappling is weighted first, with Clean Striking weighted next. If Clean Strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective grappling while the fighters are grounded. Octagon Control is next (Pace, Place, & Position)
The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing:
- Clean Striking would be weighed first, Clean Grappling second, then Octagon Control. Which fighter created situations that led to effective strikes.
If a round was 50/50, then:
- Clean Striking and Effective Grappling are weighed more equally with Octagon Control being weighed next.
Now, keep in mind -- these were the rules under Ratner's reign at the NSAC and these could have been changed since those days, but I think these make the case against what some fans have argued over the past week. This obviously hints that there is a hierarchy when it comes to Striking, Grappling, Effective Grappling, and Octagon Control. Striking and Grappling receive a lot of weight in a battle that's mostly standing and grappling as equals, but when entire rounds shift to the ground, the criteria is weighted to specific portions of the criteria.
This is exactly how the criteria should work, and it shocks me that we've seen arguments that some of Vera's blows in the first round would suddenly nullify anything Couture did in terms of Effective Grappling and Octagon Control. The only real problem with my view is that technically... Couture stood for much of those clinching exchanges. His style, however, was basically a grounded battle against the fence in the clinch.
Because of the way the fight went with Couture controlling Vera against the fence, weight would be pressed on the Effective Grappling and Octagon Control portions of the criteria versus Striking in the first round. The problem we see, however, is that some fans want to throw substantial weight on a few strikes when Couture controlled the round. Say what you want about how Couture worked the round... call it boring if you want, but I can't see an argument in giving Vera huge points for a few blows because Couture simply controlled him while landing barely effective strikes against the fence.
If a judge actually puts significant weight on a few clean strikes in a round that is dominated by positional control, we have a problem. It's a huge problem if a judge cannot use the rationale outlined above, and we see these problems in commissions that aren't within the list of major commissions in the United States. I have no doubt in my mind that the NJSACB and the NSAC have the competence to do their jobs using this rationale, but I know for a fact that other commissions would look at this type of scoring with bewilderment.
Without that rationale, a fight in which 90% of the round took place on the ground with a top controlling fighter doing some damage could be stolen by a fighter who gained his legs at the end of the round and landed a couple of clean strikes that didn't even daze the opponent. That is exactly what some of the arguments suggest should be the criteria for scoring a fight, and that's ridiculous.
The issue with MMA judging is that judges are open to interpretate the criteria in their own way, but interpretation of what a heavy vs. average strike looks like, the importance of leg kicks, and the entire debate regarding escapes, submission attempts, and ground tactics are the areas open for discussion.
This shouldn't be much of a debate. If Vera nearly knocked out Couture with a few strikes after being positionally dominated for the entire first round, we'd be debating what "heavier strikes with efficiency" means against the rationale that if 90% of the round is in a specific setting, more weight is put on a specific portion of the criteria. To be perfectly honest, that occurrence would lend itself to a draw round in my eyes moreso than a debate as to who barely scraped by with a winning round. But I don't think the Couture vs. Vera fight was much of a debate until the third round, a round that had a lot of different positions and areas in which the fight took place.
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I agree. Octagon control is overrated. Whats the point of controlling were the fight takes place if you cant capitalize on it? Sure Randy had the Octagon control but he never put Vera into any danger and was never close to finishing the fight.
Whats the point of controlling were the fight takes place if you cant capitalize on it?
This is my feeling as well. I don’t really think an “octagon control” scoring category is necessary or desirable at all. I actually feel the same way about scoring defense. It’s needlessly complicated.
too much focus is put on the “octagon control” part of the phrase then the actual term is “effective octagon control.” I think that the “effective” portion of the criteria needs to be weighed more. For example, if 90% of the round is striking and Fighter A is beating Fighter B with his clean technique (ie good jabs, good combos etc) but not doing a lot of damage or really slowing Fighter B down all that much but when the last 10% ends up in great grappling buy Fighter B that comes with a ‘saved by the bell’ submission attempt (ie if GSP had held on for one more second in Hughes/GSP 1) how does Fighter A win that round? He wins on the striking card but he also almost lost the fight… How does that make sense in a real life fight where there are no rounds to save your ass?
by exsanguinator on Nov 20, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
This is true, but… if the entire round took place in that area, more weight is put on Octagon control. If Vera had landed a significant strike at the end of the round, I’d be inclined to potentially pick Vera or draw the round, but a couple of clean strikes without a knockdown or damage, just a few jabs… no way.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
but didnt those few jabs do more damage than Randys failed takedown attempts?
by ProfessorBLove on Nov 19, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
It would only be classified as a couple of clean strikes. Randy still controlled Vera against the fence, and he didn’t only try to takedown Vera. He also wore him down and landed some blows along the fence. Nothing significant, but neither were Vera’s strikes.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
Judges saw it as "controlling", while most saw it as "failed takedown attempts"
When Vera stuffs 9 out of 10 takedown attempts, doesn’t he dictate that where the fight takes place? But whatever, I gave him that round.
But in the same sense, I still don’t know how he lost the third round, since the strikes were almost even, but he hurt Randy more, making him have the more “effective striking”, then also took him down and gotten mount (more effective grappling). Why doesn’t that make it enough?
I just don’t get how inconsistent they were. At least in the rua fight, depending on how a guy scores it, you’d get a clear winner.
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Randy was much more effective striking in the third. And a mount shouldn’t count as anything if you are unable to do so much as land a punch from it.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 19, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
I had a discussion today about this, and this came up. Isn’t it strange how nearly noone remembers Randy’s inside boxing? He won round 3 because of that in my mind.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
if a mount shouldn't count if you are unable to do much.....
then clinching against the fence shouldn’t count if you are unable to get the takedown you are fighting for and get broken up by the referee for inactivity.
there is a difference between having a mount for 10 seconds and not doing anything…and controlling the round by putting the other guy against the cage for 4 minutes
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 19, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I would still say the takedown to mount is worth more than cage control with no damge for 4 minutes.
If one little takedown can pull out a round, takedown and mount should clinch the round for sure.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
you mean when randy stuffs up takedown attempts for 3 rounds?
a clinch is not grappling
it’s a way of getting takedowns or rest
funny how article writer hand picks the clause without showing the main one for vera
J. Octagon Control
2. A striker who fends off a grappler’s takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
vera managed to take down couture twice, and defended at least 20 takedown attempts
by jackrussell on Nov 19, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
why is this a reply to me?
We’re on the same side! haha.
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by Anton Tabuena on Nov 20, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, no.
The clinch wasn’t just a way of getting takedowns or rest. He also did some damage within the clinch. Also, stuffing takedown attempts while taking some damage should probably be considered equal to the few strikes Vera landed in the first round. It doesn’t give Vera the win in the round.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 7:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thats fine
Vera lost the first but won the 2nd two
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
guard
You can do the same from full guard, and it counts as a neutral position.
i can argue that if clinch is a way of getting a takedown, a guard is a way of getting to a mount which counts the same as takedown in points.
do you disagree?
Bottom line is that Vera actually cam close to finishing the fight.
It is unfortunate that he decide to follow Randy to the ground and lay on top, doing nothing effectively and letting Couture regain his composure. Randy did dictate a lot of the grappling but to an extent. Vera did neutralize many takedown attempts and Randy could not really get any offensive blows in such a ‘dominant position’.
HEADS UP
I talked to Nick Lembo a while ago and this criteria was abandoned in the latest iteration of the Unified Rules. I don’t think Jersey, Nevada or Cali employ these criteria anymore.
That’s ultimately not the issue. The issue is that there is a hierarchy regardless of how you look at it. There has to be. Otherwise, striking and grappling would be on an equal footing with control and aggression, and it isn’t. It never has been.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
So what did they base it on that made Randy win it then?
how much they like Randy? Haha ;)
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by Anton Tabuena on Nov 19, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
It really isn’t the root of the argument as I expected some sort of change from Ratner’s rules to today, but the idea still remains… a hierarchy needs to be emphasized. Some of the judging we see makes me believe that some judges would actually weight a few strikes at the end of a round over considerable control over the course of an entire round, and that is the wrong way to judge. If the round was mostly controlled by one fighter, that piece of the criteria is going to hold more weight.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
MMA is not like track and field, where whoever runs fastest wins. This stuff is based on individual opinions about fighting and effectiveness, and with as many styles and techniques as colors in the rainbow, judging WILL NEVER make everyone happy.
The only way to perfect judging in MMA is to mismatch fights so badly that there can be no room for interpretation.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
I disagree.
There are specific elements of the criteria that should absolutely be similar across all commissions, and the hierarchy should be one of them. It isn’t rocket science how it works, and it’s pretty simple to understand. The interpretation of what a clean, heavy strike versus a clean non-heavy strike and other intricate details in the grappling department are the areas open for interpretation. The hierarchy shouldn’t be a mystery at all.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
I guess my argument is addressed to more than just the heirarchy idea—im talking more about this idea of “effective” and “clean” as a quantitative method of scoring.
The judge is told to “factor” this in first in or “score” this second. What the hell does that mean? When Cecil Peoples, a karate black belt, claims that leg kicks don’t finish fights, therefore Machida won… you’re dealing with an opinion and a bias.
It comes down to the fact that three people are paid to squint through a cage, watch two dudes scrap and roll around, and try to turn that into numbers on a piece of paper. Disagreements in close fights are never going to go away, no matter how much anyone revises the rules or trains the judges.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Well, that’s a different argument. I’m not debating that those arguments are open for interpretation. I’m arguing that there is this idea that if a round is totally dominated by a ground fight, but is stood up at the end with a fighter landed a bunch of clean shots, why all of the sudden is there outrage by fans like he was robbed if he didn’t win the round? The guy who effectively grappled for 90% of the round should win that round.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
Once you define the point at which grappling becomes “effective” I’ll agree or disagree with you.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Again… that’s all open to interpretation. MMA will always have that problem. I just think the problem of a judge trying to tell me that a bunch of clean strikes at the end of a round where a grappler dominated the round might have actually won the striker the round is absurd. And it baffles me that they don’t have the idea of weighting the ground aspects over the striking aspects because the round was dominated by ground techniques.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
some judges would actually weight a few strikes at the end of a round over considerable control over the course of an entire round,
As they absolutely should, because a “few strikes at the end of a round” have at least some chance of finishing a fight whereas “considerable control” is nothing but stalling.
If anything, fighters who prioritize “control” should be penalized.
by George Lucas on Nov 20, 2009 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
And this is where I completely disagree.
There is no way I would give a round to someone for landing three strikes at the end of the round, three strikes that aren’t knocking a person down or damaging the opponent over a fighter who clinch, controlled the round for 90% of it while landing some strikes in the clinch. There is no way that’s right.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Isn’t that how they score fights in the UK? I mean, that’s how it worked for Bisping v. Hammil, right?
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Also, octagon control Is different from repeatedly failing to take a guy down, nor is it a "dominant position" that weighs more than an actual takedown + mount. (you know, the most dominant position in the sport)
It’s like Kenny Florian “controlling” BJ for most of their fight.
(but yeah, I’ve said it before, so I’ll end it here)
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by Anton Tabuena on Nov 19, 2009 8:23 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
100% this
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
Nobody is saying Octagon Control is failing to take a guy down. I don’t understand the argument your making.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Couture v. Vera
Although Luke’s comment sort of makes the discussion null and void, I’d still like to mention something.
The only real problem with my view is that technically… Couture stood for much of those clinching exchanges.
Exactly. Does effectively using the greco roman clinch to nullify your opponent count as clean grappling? I would think it should, in which case Couture wins all three rounds. However, as you pointed out, under those rules, the fight was standing and therefore effective striking is weighed more heavily. In that case, Vera would have won the fight.
I guess the next step would be to see what the latest iteration of the unified rules states. I know the Maryland rules aren’t explicit in how to utilize the criteria or in what order to do so. Otherwise, it’s just my best guess.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I would think it should as well. You can either classify it as that or Octagon Control. In any case… he wins the round regardless of which it is. But that’s our opinion I suppose.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
All three rounds?
Or do you mean, The first and third?
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by Anton Tabuena on Nov 19, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’m having trouble remembering round two in great detail at the moment, but as I recall, Couture managed to corral Vera against the cage for the majority of the round. If that is scored with the idea that effective grappling takes precedence, then I would probably say the round was a draw as I think a little more about it.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
If Vera didn’t land a significant clean strike that nearly ended Couture’s night, I would say that would be correct, but Vera landed that kick plus some other subsequent blows from the knockdown. I think he takes the round based on that… easy round for Vera.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
I think we’re sort of on two different wavelengths.
If you score striking first and foremost, Vera wins the round.
If you are scoring the effective grappling first and foremost, as you would if the fight were on the ground, then I feel like the damage done by the effective striking is about even with the 4+ minutes of effective grappling executed by Couture.
But again, let me make clear that I don’t recall the round blow for blow, so I could be remembering Couture’s grappling incorrectly.
Also, to clarify further, I had Vera winning the fight as I watched it live.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
That’s not how it should work.
It should work based on how the round goes. You don’t start off by saying… well, striking and grappling are first and foremost.
If the round is striking and grappling, yes. But if the majority of a round is spent on the ground, a different rationale applies. Different criteria are now more weighted than others.
And it works pretty seamlessly in all our minds as we watch a fight. When we see a grapplefest, we are gauging strikes from the top versus submission attempts from the bottom fighter and control. That’s how it should work.
If you are scoring the effective grappling first and foremost, as you would if the fight were on the ground, then I feel like the damage done by the effective striking is about even with the 4+ minutes of effective grappling executed by Couture.
This is how I think it SHOULD be judged, but saying it’s a draw is the part in which it becomes open for interpretation. It becomes a question of… how much weight do you put on those strikes at the end versus the effective grappling? That’s a whole different debate.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. My post-UFC 105 column dealt in part with that debate.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
While I don’t have a lot to add to what Leland is saying and I am aware of Brett position on scoring and I agree with him in almost all instances, I feel I need to sum this fight up, a fight I didn’t see. It has been described to me that this was a tyipical battle of weighting problems in scoring. Leland calling it octagon control and Brett calling the greco style clinch work grappling, well thats just symantics and they are both right. In the second it is agreed upon that Randy controlled the action with Vera push in the clinch on the fence for 4/5 of the round. While Vera had control with strikes for 1/5 and put Randy down. Again, I did not see the fight. So did Vera do enough in 1 minute to eclipse what Randy did in 4? It sound like people agree that he did. And if you are scoring that knock down as a knock down, then its a 10-8 round.
The one thing I think Leland is missing is that cage control should be leading to damage by way of effective grappling or striking, but let me take you to a fight that makes my point. Vera vs. Big Timmy. Tim did zero to Vera for the two rounds that he won, but he did control the cage. Vera was able to stop any further punishment outside of the clinch against the cage. Vera’s defence counts for something in this case, not a lot and not more then Tim’s clinch work, but it leads to Tim winning rounds by very slim margins even though he controlled the entire round and there was not question that he won. It was to the point that one good exchange or a take down could steal the round. This is cage control.
Another long winded example. An exchange were a fighter goes for a takedown and gets stuffed and both fighters pop up to standing. Who wins? Most would say draw, but if I have to score based on the criteria I have been given, I say the shooter wins because he is the aggressor. Now if they stalled on the shot and sprawl and neither man is doing damage with strikes and the position is not changeing, who is winning? You can say the shooting man because he is controling and not allowing the other man to work his offence while he is being aggressive and controling the action. But the top man’s sprawl is equally as controlling. This relates back to Timmy vs. Vera. The clinch on the cage is similar to the shot. Both are setups to work unique sets of offence. The clinch is used for close range strikes or setting up the take down, while the shot is a take down attempt. Now if you don’t finish a takedown, exluding other exchanges, you are winning and the same goes for the clinch. If you are not working in the clinch then you are not winning by very much. And in both positions, strikes by the defending fighter can negate your entire advantage.
Further on in this late night rambling…
Back to Randy vs. Vera, While Randy has Vera on the fence he has the upper hand, but is only gaining a slight advantage for the position itself. Not there is a margin for error in that statement because a clinch is a 50/50 position, but a 50/50 clinch with one mans back to the cage is no longer 50/50 and a 50/50 clinch where one man is being thrown around like a rag doll and can’t get any sorts of hooks and has no idea what to do is a great deal away from a 50/50 position.
I have a lot more to say about scroing, but I have to sleep now. I hope this is readable.
While I don’t have a lot to add
Lies!
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Second round goes to Vera due to clean strikes that resulted in a knockdown and visible damage.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Last Criterion:
Brandon Vera, -1 Point
Keep firing Assholes!
The only thing Fishbob does consistently is dissapoint.
by Ubernoober on Nov 19, 2009 8:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I will say one thing…
I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the third round as “any body attack by Vera counts more because he hurt randy to the body in the second” which is dumb and wrong. You don’t score punches to the head as more effective after a guy gets dropped. This isn’t mortal kombat…it’s not an energy bar that is racing to be depleted
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 19, 2009 9:05 PM EST reply actions
LOL
Someone seriously said that? I am losing faith as we speak.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t score punches to the head as more effective after a guy gets dropped.
Well, that would be a knockdown.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I think he meant that a knockdown shouldn’t alter the scoring of any other part of the match.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
Right...
if I knock you down in the first round with a punch to the head, then if I hit you in the head in the second round that isn’t worth more than a standard punch simply because you were knocked down in the first.
Still I’ve heard people suggest that anything Vera did to the body after the knockdown from the body shot in the second has to be counted more than a regular body attack
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 19, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Do you really think attacking an injured target is equally or less effective than attacking an uninjured target?
by George Lucas on Nov 20, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
Attacking an already injured target on an opponent is more likely to finish the fight and should absolutely be accorded a higher score.
by George Lucas on Nov 20, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Recommended reading...
There are a couple of epic threads on the UG from MMA judge Douglas Crosby. Highly recommended if you’re interested in getting further insight from one of the better judges out there:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=1&thread=1418802&page=1
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=1&thread=1511755&page=1
You need to filter through quite a bit, but there’s some excellent insight buried in there.
Read these quite awhile back. Good stuff.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
You and I seem to disagree
on what is dominant octagon control. When the ref has to separate you multiple times because of inactivity, the effectiveness of your position is reduced or perhaps even negated. Rd. 1 Couture pushing Vera up against the cage and getting separated repeated times for inactivity = vertical Lay and Pray. He literally shot in and ran him up against the cage as soon as the ref said “go” twice. Positional control that is so inadequate as to be stopped by the ref multiple times should not be rewarded.
Sure Couture was dictating where the fight took place. Was he doing anything with that dictating, especially in round 1? No.
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 19, 2009 9:37 PM EST reply actions
Yet, he still won the round based on control. Vera did not do anything really due to the controlling aspects. With only that to go on, he wins the round.
But this really isn’t the argument.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
but he shouldn't have won it
If ground/cage/octagon/ring control is so ineffective as to be broken up by the ref multiple times, it shouldn’t outweigh the othe aspect. In this case, that is the striking aspect, which Vera won cleanly, albeit the fact that there wasn’t much of it to go on.
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 19, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
"Effective" is everything in this conversation
As such, I saw round one as a clear draw.
Fighting Area Control
“Effective” has nothing to do with my point. My point is that the hierarchy isn’t used in some areas on judging. “Effective” vs. not effective is the interpretation argument.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 7:26 AM EST up reply actions
I would have to disagree
Octagon control should only be used as a factor when all other factors are equal. The goal of any fight should be to end the fight prior to a decision. This can occur by a single act (submission or KTFO) or by cumulative damage (see Cain Velasquez). Octagon control is meaningless if the fight is not damaging his opponent. Look at Clay Guida v. Diego Sanchez, at one point during that fight Guida had taken Sanchez down, but Sanchez was causing more damage from the bottom than Guida was from the top. Additionally, a skilled bjj practitioner who prefers to fight off of his back should not be penalized for giving up "octagon control" if in winning an opening striking flurry gets taken down and spends the rest of the round on his back.
If anything, in establishing octagon control a fighter receives more damage it should further indicate the strength of the opposing fighter. Which would have been more impressive: Vera damaging Couture standing or Vera damaging Couture from within Couture’s Greco-roman clinch? Clearly the second. Causing damage from an opponents chosen position should be further rewarded.
The fighters performance within a round should be assed individually and then judges should compare the fighters performance in determining the round’s victor. I propose that a fighter’s performance within a round assessed and scored by the following criteria:
1) Proximity to finishing the fight (0-15 points)
2) The number of times within a round the fighter was reasonably close to finishing the fight (5 points for each occurrence)
3) The cumulative damage a fighter inflicted upon his opponent (0-10 points)
4) Overall activity and aggression (0-5 points)
5) If, in the consideration of the above factors, the winner of a round cannot be determined then the round should be awarded to the fighter who had the greatest success, as determined from the above factors from disadvantageous positions.
This style of judgment would help alleviate the problems of assessing the value of submission attempts and help alleviate the problem of the lay and pray. Criterion 1 & 2 would equally benefit stand up and ground fighters. Criteria 3 would benefit strikers, but justifiably so in that a fighter throwing strikes has a more detrimental effect on his opponent than does a fighter merely positioning for a submission. Criterion 4 would help dissuade what I call the Bernard Hopkins effect, creating a punishment for pure counter strikers who rely on an opponent’s aggression to do anything at all during a fight. Initiating action should be benefited as the initial actor is generally in a weaker position immediately. Criteria 5 recognizes the necessity of awarding a victor in a round due to the overall shortness of an MMA fight and acknowledges the greater skill of a fighter who can fight successfully from an area of the opponents choosing.
This model could fit within the current 10 point must system whereby a fighter would be awarded the round 10-9 for a round determined by criteria 5, 10-8 for a round determined by the first four criterion, or 10-7 for a round for where a fighter’s round score is 50% or more than his opponent’s, 10-6 four a round where a fighter’s round score was 100% or more than his opponent’s. This scoring system could also be easily adjusted by removing criteria 5 for a cumulative fight assessment. While this remains reliant on the subjectivity of the judges, it would create a more standardized assessment process.
Octagon control should only be used as a factor when all other factors are equal.
Completely disagree.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 7:26 AM EST up reply actions
Why?
Some aspects of MMA are clearly attempts to finish the fight, while others are more akin to facilitating those means.
Striking is a clear attempt to end a fight. Submissions are a clear attempts to finish a fight. Grappling and Octagon Control are efforts to facilitate those. If not, then they should not count for much.
In military terms, you will never win a war by placing greater value on maneuver (grappling and octagon control) than fire (striking and submissions).
Because if a round is completely dominated by clinch battles and takedown defense, why should it be on equal footing? It should hold more weight because striking was absent.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
Is it me, or did you just agree with the argument that you "Completely disagree"d with above?
If a round is dominated by clinch battles and takedown defense, then those other aspect are probably equal or negligible, so octagon control would serve as a tie breaker.
However, if that “Couture clinch” (yeah, trying to coin a phrase there) starts because of a nasty shot…then I still think the nasty shot should rule the day.
No, he’s saying:
Octagon control should only be used as a factor when all other factors are equal.
Octagon control should only be used when all other factors are equal? I’m not making that claim at all. In fact, it should be WEIGHTED when it dominates a fight.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
But I disagree with what you are calling octagon control. I think what you are calling octagon control falls under effective grappling. Octagon control to me is action that may not score points in a componet sport like wrestling, but the guy controling the action has the advantage. Randy working to gain a positional advantage, the high ground if you will, is grappling. It may not take place on the ground, but not all grappling does.
I don’t think we are arguing that then. Because I think Randy’s clinch should be scored as effective grappling.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yes and I agree, but its not as effective as back mount or a take down. All striking aside, Randy is leading by a thin margin if all he is doing pushing him on the fence, then yeah it is more effective, but not by an overwhelming margin and it can be overcome by winning some striking exchanges or landing a clearly damaging blow. Octagon control I think is a misnomer because controlling an opponents position is grappling. octagon control would more descriptively be called cage generalship in my interpretation of the stated rules. I don’t think it is a third factor on the same level as striking/grappling.
The order is
1. Striking
2. Grappling
3. Cage Generalship
4. Aggression
Where 1 and 2 are effectively even and weighted based on the domain of the fight. 3 is a lesser value and does have a time component, like Randy being in control for 4 minutes and bringing the clinch, both initiating it and keeping Vera on the fence. This is what gives a guy in top control the edge or maybe a guy is taking the center of the cage and stalking to gain a slight positional edge. 4 is what a guy initiating even striking exchanges a slight edge or a guy who has guard and is being very active while the top man is content to sit and do nothing.
To be perfectly honest, Randy’s clinch game basically looks like effective grappling, but against the fence.
And yes, he isn’t leading by an overwhelming margin, but some people here seem to think that leading by barely anything means it’s bullshit and he should lose. But throwing a few strikes that land isn’t going to overcome that. I think a few exchanges, yes.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree completely.
Octagon Control should in no way have the opportunity to outweigh Striking or Grappling.
Personally, what Randy did in that fight was a pretty sad exploitation of the rules against the spirit of them. I’d like to see that changed.
Yeah, we’re at an impasse then. There is no way I could ever be on board with that argument.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think you guys understand me wrong
I am actually saying that a fighter who establishes the position of the fight by establishing a clinch, pulling guard, taking down an opponent, fighting to keep the fight standing is doing so because that is a position that he feels gives him the greatest opportunity for victory. If a fighter, in choosing a position where he has the greatest advantage, receives as much damage as he causes from an opponent that he put in a disadvantageous position, then the opponent should win the round because he was equally as effective from a disadvantageous position.
Lets look at this in context of Guida v. Sanchez. Guida took Sanchez down, but Sanchez caused more damage from the bottom than guida did from the top – Sanchez gets the round.
Now lets say that Guida caused an equal amount of damage as he took. Sanchez should still win the round. If Guida’s area of skill is no greater than Sanchez in an area of weakness then it evidences that Sanchez is the better fighter.
That isn’t a bad argument, but there are some problems.
For example, a fighter on his back who deals out some blows while the top controlling fighter deals out blows is usually deemed more effective by the top fighter because the blows usually offer more power. Now, if we are talking purely lands and the blows are pretty much on equal ground… then the argument has weight because the bottom fighter could land more blows.
But this goes back to the argument that a bottom fighter is getting screwed over due to positional dominance of the top fighter. I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a problem.
That is another problem that has some relation to this argument because those judges are putting the Control aspect as well as the clean strikes aspect into the equation, but some judges are ignoring what the bottom fighter does.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with your assessment of the problem
I am talking about more generally about overall damage inflicted than the number or severity of the strikes, although obviously the number and power behind landed strikes would provide a large amount of the damage equation.
But that is my point entirely, that judges put emphasis in an area that should receive little if any weight. Positional control is only of value when used to inflict damage or making attempts to end a fight. But in those situations we can assess the damage and submission attempts on their own merit. Positional alone holds no value.
I still think Round 1 should have been scored 10-10 and that they split the remaining two rounds.
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Ditto.
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by Rundownloser on Nov 20, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
First thing, I think that a jab or a straigt is just as important as a leg kick.
I think of it like this, Forrest Griffen does not hit hard, but his leg kicks, DAMN!! He will most likely never finish anyone with hand strikes but if he used leg kicks(like in the rampage and even in the Rashad fight they were taking a toll) he can really mess someone up, just look at Rampages legs and after the fight with Rashad, he had big ice-packs on them.
Leg kicks can and usally cripple you and make it harder to do anything(stand-up or ground) if done by someone good with them(aka Forrest and Shogun), they should be counted.
just my thoughts=/
Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit.
leg kicks don't count
ask cecil peoples.
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 19, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Not to defend Cecil, but...
he was saying that Shogun’s leg kicks did not count AS MUCH AS Machida’s punches that usually took place at the exact same time in that fight…not that they did not count at all.
However, listening to Rogan’s commentary during the fight, its easy to miss Machida scoring with his hands while Rua was landing kicks.
I feel a bit differently
What I like most about this article is that it argues for clear judging criteria. Quite frankly the standard guidance of effective striking, grappling and octagon control isn’t enough. We need more clear guidance on judging. This guidance should be open so it can be debated and fans can better judge for themselves.
To me, however, I would rather a system that values key moments in fights more than consistent but rather meaningless positional work. When I watch a fight there are often a few key important moments where the fight is in the balance.
1. A fighter achieves a dominant position (mount, back control).
2. A fighter lands big strikes either standing, clinch of GNP.
3. A fighter has a threatening finish.
These are the critical moments and I’d like to reward them over more insignificant action that tips one way.
There are two main reasons to support this view.
1. Judging exists because its impractical and dangerous to have every fight go to the finish. We should disproportionately reward techniques that come close to achieving the true point of the contest.
2. Rules should be designed to enhance the fan experience. Football has done this quite successfully with rules protecting the offense (roughing the passer, illegal contact)
If we too closely follow the criteria advanced in the piece we reward lay and pray or vertical lay and pray (i.e. coutures strategy).
While Vera’s first round strikes were not sufficient to negate coutures Control. I would reward the decisive moments more heavily.
Why is position of value by itself?
Having control, without inflicting damage, is merely a defensive maneuver preventing your opponent from inflicting damage. If I enter full mount at the very beginning of the round and my opponent punches me once defensively then locks his arms around my body and holds on for dear life, and I fail to break his grip around my body or land a blow for the duration of the round, my position was worthless. My opponent should win the round. At best, it could be argued that I tired my opponent out, but the one punch caused more damage than my “dominant position” ever did.
The only position I could see reward unto itself is back mount. But awarding that position is only a recognition of the damage that fighter could have done if there weren’t rules in place to protect the mounted fighter (i.e. punching in the back of the head).
A fighter attempts to enter a position, be it taking the fight to the ground or standing back up, to create a situation were he has the greatest chance to damage his opponent while avoiding getting hurt himself. Rewarding position is like awarding a boxer for throwing a great feint even if the succeeding strikes fail to land.
Agree
My point was really to reward the moments close to finishing the fight which is often achieved from mount, but I don’t want to give positions credit when they aren’t leveraged to inflict meaningful damage or subs. I would just say mount for 40 seconds with damage >2.5 minutes of clinch with very marginal strikes.
In any case I consider these kind of positions far more meaningful then say who has the better half of a clinch where minimal damage is done.
Let's not forget
Vera DID turn the cage clinch around on a few occasions. It wasn’t a case of being completely and utterly helpless, and he did get in a few strikes of his own too.
I think he was foot stomping, and we all know foot stomps > all!
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by Well Read Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 9:02 AM EST reply actions
Lemme say this...
Most of you are missing the entire point.
The point isn’t to try to interpret each piece of criteria, but to emphasize a “shifting” hierarchy that’s already in place. Striking and Grappling shouldn’t be #1 and #2 all the time if an entire round is basically a clinch war with takedown defense and control. That’s the argument.
I’ve seen enough local events to know that Octagon Control and Aggression are NEVER used in judging MMA fights on a regional level unless it’s a large organization that’s competent. Hell, even Grappling is ignored at some events.
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But shouldn't the judges be the same for large orgs as they are for small orgs?
They’re state employees, correct? The athletic commission has say over who the judges are. So shouldn’t Doc Hamilton, Cecil Peoples, Adalaide Byrd, etc. be judging small events in addition to UFC events? I don’t believe for one second that certain judges/referees are given preferential treatment when it comes to event assignments. Every piece of evidence I have seen points to the idea that either A) the Athletic Commissions only assign ‘top’ judges/refs to major cards or B) Major Orgs such as the UFC have a say in who works on their cards.
I may be wrong, but this seems to be a troubling trend to me.
No. Commissions don’t all have the same referees or judges, and the states who don’t have frequent major events don’t have as much experience either.
I went to an event here in Illinois and the judging was somewhat questionable. It was obvious that STRIKING was going to win you the fight unless you grappled the entire fight in dominating fashion.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 20, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Why is it that sometimes when UFC goes to a new state (such as UFC 88, my first live event), they have Herb Dean and Mario and Mazz, while other states (Tennessee is one if I’m not mistaken) they have referees that they have never used before? Do the “big name” refs just go and get licensed in the states that the UFC is headed to?
Sorry I have so many questions, it’s just that this is one of the most misunderstood elements of MMA to me.

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