Heavyweight Tournament Kills Two Birds with One Stone
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 11:19 AM EST
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PrintBrock Lesnar's future is currently in question and chances are that the UFC will need to put a belt around someone's waist in the near future. But how do you decide who is most deserving?
A number of fighters all have solid arguments for their own title contention, and choosing just two fighters would leave another two or three out in the cold. The solution?
How about an old-fashioned eight-man tournament?
Actually, how about two tournaments – one with the top eight heavyweights seeded and paired off working towards the title, the other with the next eight battling to be alternates?
Now, we’re not talking about old school, three fights in one night tournaments; while the practice of having multiple fights in the same night is still popular in Japan, those days have passed in North America.
However, what could work is a variation of the model Bellator successfully used during their first foray into Mixed Martial Arts.
The fighters would be back in the driver's seat for determining the next champ and the UFC would additionally create a number of marquee matchups to headline a series of events throughout the year.
Read more on the not-so-radical idea for killing two birds with one stone at Heavy.com
No birds were harmed in the writing of this FanPost.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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I like the idea for a tournament. Make it a big deal and I think people would really get into it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Nov 19, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions
Agreed – hype the thing through the roof, get people watching multiple events and looking forward to something in the future.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
UFC Heavyweight Tournament
Well, the issues with running a Heavyweight tournament as I see them are:
1. The UFC just did this for all intents and purposes.
2. Dana White claims he doesn’t like tournaments in MMA.
But for me? I love the tournament concept in MMA. I think the time for the one night only format has passed, but aside from that, I’m all for it. Honestly, I’ve bracketed out fantasy tournaments between PRIDE and UFC fighters and DREAM and UFC fighters on more than one occasion.
And if Brock comes back, the tournament winner faces Brock immediately. Sure. It’s like what Sengoku did with Takanori Gomi, except probably not as doomed to failure.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
1. Agreed.
2. Dana also said Tito would never fight in the UFC again…
Spreading it over numerous cards gives guys the time to heal and train properly, as well as giving the UFC the ability to hype up the matchups that come out of each bracket well in advance.
The Brock coming back against the winner would apply more if he retains his belt and the UFC goes with an interim title. Additionally, I don’t think you can take a belt from a guy and tell him he has to work his way back up the ladder when nothing he did in the cage caused him to lose the belt.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, what I was trying to get at is more or less the same sentiment you hit on: Dana says he doesn’t like tournaments, but then he runs a tournament to determine the Heavyweight champion. Not only did he do that, but he did so while there was both a champion and an interim champion in place. Which isn’t to suggest that the tournament wasn’t a brilliant promotional tactic, but it makes me think that Dana is kind of full of it when he says he doesn’t like tournaments.
Well, that, and the fact that they run two television series dedicated to showcase tournaments every year.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I think he doesn’t like them because he doesn’t like when the matchmaking is taken out of their control. With the last HW tournament, matchmaking was a nobrainer. There was really no bay result that could come out of that tournament.
Expanding to 8 makes things a little more difficult, because it’s hard to set up a bracket with 8 fighters with a guarantee that they can sell all 7 fights. If it were to happen, I think the odds of a 4 man tournament are exponentially higher than the odds of an 8 man.
I see your point but I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal. We’re talking about 8 guys over seven matches. This isn’t March Madness.
At Heavyweight, getting eight legitimate contenders may actually be a struggle. Aside from that, the only great problem, as you mentioned, is insuring that the guys who start the tournament are able to participate throughout the entire tournament (i.e. injuries don’t cause a winner to withdraw). I don’t think that’s a huge deal. Worst case scenario, you get a guy already on the UFC roster to fill in, he gets a little more exposure than he otherwise would while filling out the untelevised undercard of a Fight Night. All in all, it’s probably a net gain either way.
But, that’s me, and as I’ve stated, I’m totally in the tank for the tournament concept. You have UFC 3 and (yes) the old King of the Rings for that.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Check out the full story – it’s all covered, including injury replacements.
Look how well Bellator turned out. While there is certainly luck involved, everyone they more or less expected to come through and win did while still being exciting fights each round.
Executed properly, tournaments can be wildly-successful and greatly entertaining.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I’d love to, but regrettably the site is banned at work.
I inquired about it, and I was told that because the site features streaming content (they mentioned MP3’s in particular), there was a concern that too much traffic to/from that site could bog down out network.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to download the Tony Kornheiser show.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
With regards to Bellator though: It didn’t do any business as far as I can tell. So, that strikes me as a knock against the tournament philosophy.
In a vacuum, I mean. We understand that with the UFC brand behind a tournament, money will be made.
In the context of the hardcore audience, though, the show did some good. The prime example of this, to me, is Toby Imada. Be honest: had you ever heard of Toby Imada before the Bellator tournament? I hadn’t. Then came that inverted triangle, one of the great submissions of all time, and you, I, and everyone else who frequents the MMA blogosphere knew exactly who Toby Imada was.
In other words, I agree that tournaments can be wildly successful and greatly entertaining, especially with the talent that the UFC brings to the table.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
PRECISELY!
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
When you say tournament I think back all way to UFC 3 and how tournaments can really just screw everything up. It was supposed to be Gracie vs. Shamrock at the finals yet we got crap, Steve Jennum vs Harold Howard!
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
While I agree that you never know how things are going to shake out, having the top 8 heavyweights in the UFC together should yield a reasonably entertaining and marquee fight…
Additionally, you pair each fighter with an alternate, so you don’t get Steve Jennum walking in off the street and winning the whole thing.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/11/19/myriad-of-issues-muddle-ufc-heavyweight-title-picture/?tid=sbn
The UFC proposed a UFC 110 date. Carwin, however, is unavailable to fight at UFC 110, as he and his wife are expecting a baby on Feb. 11, just 10 days before the event.
…The UFC is targeting an April event in Mexico, and hopes to showcase Velasquez as one of the main attractions.
…With Lesnar and Nogueira sidelined indefinitely, Carwin and Velasquez appear to be the favorites to vie for an interim belt.
Saw that earlier today and it will probably the way they will go… though I would love to see them think outside the box for once… look two or three moves ahead instead of just one.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
The prob with a tourney...
…you need eight guys ready to fight on the same night, in the same division.
UFC can’t get eight guys together for coffee these days without five of them leaving with second degree burns.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
On the Contrary...
Theoretically (and following the model proposed in the article) you need four in each tournament; two pairs of top contenders and two pairs of alternates.
While it is certainly difficult to get a large number of guys healthy at the same time, that is where this would actually work, as you don’t need everyone ready at the same time. You start with the healthiest of the lot and go from there…
Space out the fights so that guys have time to recover and rest (as well as train for their next opponent) and if they are unable to move forward, you have alternates already in place.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
You could stretch a tournament over four years if you wanted to if injuries happened. It doesn’t really matter what the time table is.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 19, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
People waited two years for Matt Hughes vs. Matt Serra, a lot of them were seriously interested in that fight that meant absolutely nothing and turned out to be kind of stale…
You make the format work for you… nothing has to be etched in stone.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Two eight-man tournaments would be unpractical – simply because it would take a looong time to find out who won. Having two four-man tournaments – one for the (interim?) champion, the other for the #1 contender – might be doable.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Nov 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST reply actions
If you run them concurrently (alternates on the undercard, title contenders on the main card), even with four months between fights, we’re talking about a year…
We’ve had titles held up for that long because of TUF before, how why would deciding a new champion in a competitive and marketable way be any worse than that?
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Biggest issue I see:
Consensus #5 and #3 heavyweight won’t fight each other. No matter what. It’s not a training partner or friend relationship, it’s a student/master relationship, and that cannot be bought no matter what the price.
It’s a sport fight, not a fight to the death.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Well, that particular comment was neither epic nor a non sequitur. This topic comes up from time to time, so you’ll forgive me if I’ve developed a succinct rebuttal.
The relationship you mention and the way in which you describe it leads me to believe that you’ve spent a lot of time watching old Kung Fu movies.
If you think a sport fight would severe the relationship between a student of the Martial Arts and his master, both of whom are professional fighters at the highest level, then I discount your opinion as misguided.
Although, you seem to be fine with training partners and friends fighting. I like that. A lot of people can’t even get to that point.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Yes, Nogueira and Cigano fall under the same Black House umbrella as Machida and Anderson Silva and none of them want to fight each other.
As with everything, you deal with it when you come to it, if you come to it. They wouldn’t meet in the first round, so see what happens after round one and go from there.
Additionally, put enough money on the table and everyone will fight… that’s what always comes out when you push guys on the topic. “I don’t want to do it, but if they gave us enough money….”
Give them the money and you’ll see them fight.
The Jon Jones of Mixed Martial Arts Journalism
by E. Spencer Kyte on Nov 19, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
No, they wouldn't.
It’s a completely different relationship. Training partners are friends. BJJ teachers and students have a bond more akin to family than anything else. Anderson and Lyoto choose not to fight each other. JDS and Big Nog can not fight each other.
valasquez, carwin, dos santos, nogueria, mir, kongo, rothwell, nelson with...
barry, gonzaga, struve as alternates. randomly bracket the fighters, you probably should have the first round on two closely dated cards and the semis on the same card, back-to-back. and already have the finals determined far in advance. this could set up new rivalries and there will always be brock watching saying he could kick all their asses.
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