USAT/SBN November MMA Consensus Rankings: Heavyweight

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 11:03 AM EST in MMA Rankings

Rank	Fighter	%	Promotion	Last Rank
1	Fedor Emelianenko	100	M-1 Global/Strikeforce	1
2	Brock Lesnar	96	UFC	2
3	Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira	88	UFC	3
4	Frank Mir	86	UFC	4
5	Junior dos Santos	74	UFC	7
6	Josh Barnett	74	WVR	5
7	Cain Velasquez	67	UFC	11
8	Brett Rogers	65	Strikeforce	8
9	Shane Carwin	62	UFC	6
10	Fabricio Werdum	50	Strikeforce	13
11	Alistair Overeem	50	DREAM/Strikeforce	11
12	Randy Couture	49	UFC	9
13	Andrei Arlovski	44	???	10
14	Jeff Monson	27	Free Agent	14
15	Tim Sylvia	26	Adrenaline	18
16	Gabriel Gonzaga	24	UFC	15
17	Cheick Kongo	23	UFC	16
18	Antonio Silva	22	WVR/Strikeforce	22
19	Pedro Rizzo	21	Free Agent	19
19	Marcio Cruz	21	Art of Fighting	23
21	Ben Rothwell	21	UFC	17
22	Gilbert Yvel	20	Fight Force International	24
22	Ray Mercer	20	Adrenaline	26
22	Semmy Schilt	20	K-1	24
25	Aleksander Emelianenko	19	ProFC	20
25	Roy Nelson	19	UFC	21

Rankings compiled by Richard Wade.

November was supposed to be the most epic month in heavyweight MMA since August. Both #1 Fedor Emelianenko and #2 Brock Lesnar were set to fight. But just as in August, fate intervened and only one of the two titans of the division actually competed.

In August it was the failure of #6 Josh Barnett to meet the licensing requirements of the CSAC and the resulting collapse of Affliction as a fight promotion that prevented Fedor from fighting.

In November, Fedor fought spectacularly, TKO'ing #8 Brett Rogers on the fan pleasing Strikeforce: Fedor vs Rogers card.

But sadly, Lesnar fell ill and his title defense against #9 Shane Carwin was first postponed and then canceled.

Piling on more bad news, #3 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira had to cancel his UFC 108 fight with #7 Cain Velasquez due to a nasty staph infection.

There are rumors that Velasquez and Carwin will fight for an interim title, but that won't happen until 2010 at the earliest.

#4 Frank Mir will try to return to contention by beating #17 Cheick Kongo at UFC 107.

#5 Junior Dos Santos will be tested by #16 Gabriel Gonzaga at UFC 108. If Dos Santos can beat Gonzaga he will be well placed for a title shot, pending the resolution of the title situation.

#10 Fabricio Werdum took a hard-fought decision over #18 Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva at Strikeforce: Fedor vs Rogers and seems to be next in line for a crack at the mighty Fedor. It would be fun to see Bigfoot vs Brett Rogers on a future Strikeforce card. The winner would immediately return to contention.

Nominal Strikeforce champ #11 Alistair Overeem is expected to return to Strikeforce in 2010 to defend his belt against Fedor. Cross your fingers.

Based on the premise that all MMA rankings are subjective but that it’s still useful and informative to know who the online MMA community as a whole ranks as the best fighters in MMA, we collect and average the rankings of the top MMA websites to produce our consensus rankings. Show more "

We compile the top MMA rankings from each of our sources and award 25 points for a first place ranking, 16 for a 10th place ranking, 1 for a 25th place ranking. A formula is used to "normalize" the data so all fighters are awarded points from those lists that do not include a full 25 fighters. This formula ensures that each ranking site awards the same number of total points regardless of how many fighters they choose to rank. Each fighter’s total is divided by the number of possible points to determine their standing in the Consensus Rankings.

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WTF? Shane falls 3 spots and is now behind Rogers even though he didn’t fight?

by ufc4 on Nov 18, 2009 6:50 PM EST reply actions

that is another eccentricity of the way we compile the rankings

since not every source updates every month, there is a distorting effect when a number of sites that down rate a fighter all update after having not met the threshold in the previous month.
In this case TAGG Radio and Fight Magazine and a couple of others don’t rate Carwin in the top ten at all.
We’re taking a serious look at restricting the panel to fewer sources who will update every month.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 18, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions

That’s a good idea, if they don’t take their rankings seriously enough to update it every month then they don’t deserve to be included with others that do.

by ufc4 on Nov 18, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions

Yea wtf

Rogers, JDS and Cain over Shane because the fight gets postponed? wtf logic is that.

by Cory Braiterman on Nov 18, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think Carwin was punished for his fight being postponed

Some rankers just don’t buy the Carwin hype.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 18, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions

Justifiable. I mean, as far as ranked opponents go, he’s only beaten Gabriel Gonzaga.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions

I support narrowing the list of surveyed sites to a smaller and higher quality list.

by klown on Nov 19, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

And preferably the same ‘x’ number of sites who can be counted on to be compiled into every single month’s poll. But it’s a tough job that the BE staff has here, and I fully commend them for their efforts.

by argyle on Nov 19, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions

411 Mania, Fight Opinion, Inside MMA, MMA Fighting and MMA Ratings were not updated this month. They ranked him 5th, 5th, 9th, 10th and 8th last month.

No new sources were included this month.

Sherdog, Sports Illustrated, Total MMA and WAMMA didn’t move him in their rankings. They ranked him 10th, 7th, 12th and 5th.

Cage Potato moved him from 7th to 8th. Fight Magazine and Fight Matrix both moved him from 10th to 11th. MMA Playground moved him from 6th to 5th. MMA Weekly moved him from 10th to 9th. MMA Rocks and TAGG Radio both moved him from 10th to Unranked.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Nov 18, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions

Are you using the Independent MMA rankings that Ivan Trembow has been putting together as one of the sources?

Oh, and which one of those is the one that has Semmy Schilt ranked? Nate mentioned it last month but I’ve forgotten.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions

yeah we use the Independent Rankings

and I can’t remember who’s ranking Schilt either.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions

It looks like you don’t use the rankings for MMA Fanhouse. Any particular reason for that?

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions

no we use the rankings from Fanhouse

MDS is one of the few who’s actually good about emailing us his rankings early so we can include them. There were a couple of times in the past when their site wasn’t displaying them so we missed them. Hence the new direct emailing of the rankings.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions

Ah, that’s good.

I was going off of the list of contributors on the Rankings page and I didn’t see Fanhouse listed.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions

we need to update those

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions

Indeed.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions

I’ve been checking out the rankings of the sources you use to compile your consensus.

I know you don’t ranking Super Heavyweights, but a lot of folks don’t have them ranked. As a result, I was interested to see what MMA ELO had as their rankings for that division.

Then I saw that Ross Clifton the tenth ranked Super Heavyweight. That would be fine if Clifton were not currently dead.

There were other things that I disagree with, like Junior dos Santos being ranked 17 in the Heavyweight division, behind Tim Sylvia and Mirko Cro Cop. That’s more of a subjective thing, but I feel like if we polled the next 100 visitors to this site, no one would say with a straight face that dos Santos should, in November of 2009, be ranked behind Sylvia or Cro Cop.

To clarify, according to their main page, the data is up to date as of this Monday (11/16/2009).

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

We stopped including MMA ELO

a while back for just that sort of stuff — actually I think it was them including female fighters in their BW and FW ranks that was the last straw.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions

LMAO, then why not throw Pac-man and Maywether in there too?

by ufc4 on Nov 19, 2009 11:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

I have a bigger problem with the inclusion of dead people in rankings than the inclusion of women.

I mean, strictly speaking, Tara LaRosa is a Bantamweight. I mean, I’m ignoring the very obvious fact that she has never fought, nor will she ever fight a man in her career. But hey, they weight classes are on point.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

I see. Like the Fanhouse thing, I was going off of the list of sources you have on the Rankings page.

It looks like that could use an update.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions

yeah we need to catch that up

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

Thanks for clarifying those two things for me! I’m just trying to get the best understanding of your process as I can. I really like what you two are doing.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions

MMA ELO sucks in a lot of ways.

The update slowly. They keep guys in the wrong weight class way too long. They include women in their rankings. Basic ELO sucks for MMA rankings. There’s more I’m sure.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions

rec’d for investigative journalism

Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.

-SC

by The Lethal Haze on Nov 19, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions

I’d start considering other career opportunities if I were listed behind someone who is currently dead.

by worldcupfever on Nov 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions

It’s Fight Magazine.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions

Crocop isn’t even in the top 25 anymore? Are you serious? I know he looked bad but I’d like to think he could still beat Roy Nelson…

And JDS > Cain > Rogers > Carwin seem a bit wack considering JDS beat Crocop, Cain beat Kongo, Rogers lost to Fedor, and Carwin beat Gonzaga. IMO, based on their performances against their last opponents, it would make more sense for Rogers/Carwin (either or) > JDS > Cain.

But of course I understand that this is consensus rankings and you don’t care about my opinion ;)

by Underground Man on Nov 18, 2009 9:07 PM EST reply actions

Don’t forget that dos Santos also beat (clobbered) Fabricio Werdum. That win, along with the wins over Cro Cop and, to a lesser extent, Stefan Struve make it reasonable to rank dos Santos higher than Rogers, Carwin, and Cain Velasquez.

I would have Velasquez next out of that group with his wins over Kongo and Rothwell. Rothwell is actually ever so slightly higher on my own rankings (which is stunning to me, because as rankings go, I don’t think much of Rothwell), and Kongo is in the top 15 (17th in these rankings). For me, it comes down to whether or not a victory over a top-10 fighter and another top 20 fighter (again, on my rankings) is “worth more” than two wins over top 20 fighters and no wins over top 10 fighters. Obviously, I think that it is.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions

Exactly

and Werdum was a legit top 5/10 ranked HW at the time.

Gonzaga wasn’t even top 10 anymore when Carwin beat him.

I’d even have Cain above Carwin after the Rothwell win, to be honest wins over Kongo & Big Ben > 1 win over GG. IMO

And in Roger’s case, it shows that if you have a respectable showing against Fedor, you don’t drop precipitously in the rankings. Arlovski experienced this as well.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Nov 19, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

We agree with one another.

dos Santos
Velasquez
Rogers
Carwin

Actually, to your point that a loss to Fedor doesn’t mean the end of the world, Dave Meltzer of all people, when Arlovski lost to Rogers, that he wasn’t even a top 10 fighter going into that match. That baffled me. He’s a fringe top 10 guy, granted, but he’s got the win over Werdum and wins over Rothwell and Nelson. Those don’t mean so much, but they mean more than, say, beating just Gabriel Gonzaga and no one else of whom anyone’s ever heard.

Not that I don’t think that Shane Cariwn is a great fighter. He appears to be a great fighter. Still, for me, I prefer to wait until fighters prove their rank before I get crazy with bumping them up the list. Right now, Carwin has proven that he’s better than a top 15 fighter. Not a top 10 fighter, not a top 5 fighter, just a top 15 fighter. I say “just” a top 15 fighter, but that is good. It’s just not as good as those other things.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions

Contrast the consensus rankings to these, which are based solely on wins over ranked opponents:

1. F. Emilianenko
2. Lesnar
3. Mir
4. Nogueira
5. Couture
6. Sylvia
7. Rogers
8. Arlovski
9. Dos Santos
10. Werdum
11. Carwin
12. Gonzaga
13. Velasquez
14. O’Brien
15. Herring
16. Kongo
17. CroCop
18. Barnett
19. A. Emilianenko
20. Rizzo
21. Monson
22. Kharitanov
23. Overeem

If you go down that list, usually each fighter holds a win (in the last 2-3 years) over the next ranked fighter, or the next one after that. Here are some eccentricities of this system:

- Fighters continue to be ranked even after they change weight classes, retire or whatever. Fighters are ranked at every weight class in which they hold a recent win. That’s why Couture and O’Brien are on the list

- I can’t bear to rank Mercer so I’m pretending that fight never happened

by klown on Nov 19, 2009 1:35 AM EST reply actions

I am glad you have Barnett were he belongs.

by Riney on Nov 19, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions

How exactly do you compile these? Saying you do it based “solely on wins over ranked opponents” doesn’t really cover it, since as far as I can tell, that’s what everyone says they do.

I ask because it seems you like you compile them sort of ahistorically. For example, Jake O’Brien beat Heath Herring before Herring beat Cheick Kongo. To my way of thinking, that would place Herring below O’Brien before the Kongo fight and above him afterward, since at the time Kongo was a good enough win to justify such a move.

That is, unless you think losing to Herring justified dragging Kongo below O’Brien rather than moving Herring up.

Ranking MMA

by JRN on Nov 19, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions

The system is that if you beat a guy ranked above you, you take his spot and bump everybody below you down one notch. If you beat a guy ranked below you, there is no change to the rankings.

by klown on Nov 20, 2009 2:54 AM EST up reply actions

Semmy Schilt

Semmy Schilt actually went up in the rankings. I would be upset if it weren’t so damn funny.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 9:10 AM EST reply actions

He’s getting the same amount of points he did last month. Other guys have just fallen off.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions

how many mma fights has he had?

by ddax on Nov 27, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions

Wow! Ray Mercer is ranked as a top 25 MMA fighter, but is nowhere near being ranked in boxing. Fucking embarrassing.

by Jahbulon on Nov 19, 2009 11:37 AM EST reply actions

Well, he KO’d a top 25 HW in MMA earlier this year.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t count that fight on the basis that it was effectively an openweight bout—Sylvia weighed in above 265 lbs. As far as I’m concerned, Sylvia hasn’t had a heavyweight fight since Fedor.

Ranking MMA

by JRN on Nov 19, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

It’s HW in the sense that anything contested at a weight higher than 205 is HW.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions

If Sylvia weighed in at 265 do you think he would’ve been able to take that punch?

Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.

by JCS_FM on Nov 20, 2009 7:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Schilt, Mercer and Yvel? really?

All over Cro Cop?

by Discman2 on Nov 19, 2009 11:41 AM EST reply actions

Well, Yvel beat Rizzo. Decent, not great.

Meanwhile, Cro Cop’s beaten Mostapha Al Turk. Less than decent. And of course he’s lost a lot of fights in the past three years as well.

Sure, Yvel lost to Barnett, but relative to one another, the Barnett loss doesn’t seem so bad.

Ironic, considering Barnett lost to Cro Cop three times. How times change, huh?

The Schilt and Mercer stuff really isn’t arguable, but it’s kind of cute.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions

I just dont buy into the notion that Mercer, Yvel, Schilt and a few others could be ranked so high and a former top 10 guy in Cro Cop gets dropped completely off the top 25. I understand they are consensus rankings but I think people are too quick to dismiss a guy and too quick to put a guy in the top 10.

I will always use this example of what I mean…. Matt Serra was completely unranked coming in to the GSP fight. He wins and suddenly he is #1 WW in the world on most people’s rankings. He loses to GSP in the rematch and he’s unranked yet again. Looking at CC he was recently on the outskirts of the top 10 and a loss later he is out of the top 25… I dont buy that people can be so… I dont know the word but I’m gonna say… fickle.

Same goes for Mercer, which I assume is a joke that has now gone too far, because how can you say that guy is higher than Kharitonov. Though Sergei hasn’t fought in a while he still has the better resume.

And Cruz? come on now…

by Discman2 on Nov 19, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

Mercer is strictly ranked

because of sites that award points based on strength of opponent. So since he beat Tim Sylvia he made a huge leap from no where to top 25.
Ironically it’s the “most objective” systems that end up ranking Mercer.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Nov 19, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions

That’s why strictly computer generated rankings aren’t perfect. In theory, sure, but then you have Ray Mercer truck some slob who was pretty good once upon a time, and everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

I don’t get why Marcio Cruz is ranked, either. He’s beaten Mu Bae Choi, Dan Christison, and Tom Sauer (who?). Is he getting credit for beating big fat Frank Mir back in February of 2006?

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions

can we stop calling the computer based rankings “objective.”

Each individual ranking has less bias than the other rankings that are straight up opinion, or opinion polls, but bias and subjectivity went into making the formulas, that’s why they aren’t all the same.

by Phildo on Nov 19, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions

We could stop calling them that, but I think you know what he means so he’s still communicating effectively without stopping.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions

Just Fight Matrix.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions

I can understand why a computer system might rank Mercer in the Top 25, based on KO’ing an extremely overweight Tim Sylvia. I have no fucking clue why Schilt gets ranked though, even by a computer. He has two fights since 2006, both wins over nobodies. Only one of those was in the last year. How the fuck is he in these rankings? How is he even in the Top 50, objectively?

by Chromium on Nov 20, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions

No clue.

by Richard Wade on Nov 20, 2009 2:54 AM EST up reply actions

It’s amazing to me that when Big Nog hasn’t been no. 1 he’s at least been top 5 almost the entire decade, and at no point was he ever overrated.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Nov 19, 2009 12:18 PM EST reply actions

If Fedor had never come along, Nog would have been that guy for years and years.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions

Mur would now be that guy.

Keep firing Assholes!

The only thing Fishbob does consistently is dissapoint.

by Ubernoober on Nov 19, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

Which by extension means that Brocky is that guy.

So you see? If Fedor didn’t exist, Brock would be the best Heavyweight in the world. And since Fedor doesn’t exist in Dana’s world, well, you understand how it works.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 19, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions

These are my rankings, I give no methodology or reasons for my rankings. They are totally arbitrary, but they matter becasue I am always right no matter what. By reading my rankings you implicitly agree that they are correct in every way.

1 Fedor
2 Brock
3 Nog
4 Mur
5 JDS
6 Cain
7 Carwin
8 Rogers
9 Werdum
10 Gonzaga

Keep firing Assholes!

The only thing Fishbob does consistently is dissapoint.

by Ubernoober on Nov 19, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions

Not bad really.

by Richard Wade on Nov 19, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions

Very similar to mine.

I keep Barnett ranked though, since I still fight the prospect of fighting him terrifying. If he stays in Japan from now on, there’s no reason he should be penalized, since he won’t be breaking any rules. And yeah, I’d put him above Mir and below Nog.

by pdl on Nov 19, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions