Quote of the Day: Joe Rogan Is Outraged by Judging Incompetence
by Michael Rome on Nov 17, 2009 6:24 PM EST
in MMA News
82 comments
I had a conversation with Doug Crosby, and he said that during one of the [UFC] fights, one of these boxing people that have come over and started judging MMA...someone was attempting a submission, and this person turned to him and said, 'what is he doing?' How CRAZY is that? This is a professional mixed martial arts judge at the highest level of the sport, someone who is judging an Ultimate Fighting Championship bout, between two guys that are professional fighters....their careers are on the line, it's a huge contest, two equally skilled guys in a hotly contested match, and the judge has literally no idea what's going on.
Joe Rogan, relating an anecdote about judging incompetence to Josh Gross.
I strongly disagree with Rogan's assessment of the UFC 104 and UFC 105 main event judging, but his point is sound. It's hard to overstate how outrageous this is. In MMA, winning or losing a fight can be the difference between getting on the title track and making millions or getting cut if you lose one more fight. A ton is on the line, and incompetent athletic commissions can't be bothered to hire judges that know what a kimura is.
As fans, we must demand regulatory reform.
1 recs |
82 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Coaches, Fighters, etc
I think mma judges should be coaches, fighters or people that are constantly involved in the mma world in a daily basis, lots of these so called “judges” have no idea of what mma is all about, what a dominant position is, heck, they don’t even know that LEG KICKS actually count(Cecil Peoples). FYI:Oh just watched this commercial about the new assassin creed’s video game during the UFC 105 transmission , Machida still looks banged up from the Shogun fight, you can see the fat lip on his face.
In a 10 point must system, I think that the Ref should be one of the 3 judges. He is the only one able to see the fight up close and is able to contstantly change his vantage point. He is also in direct communication with the fighters and for all intents and purposes IS responsible for acknowleding winners/losers in the case of a sub attempt or if a fighter is in danger of being TKO’d.
I think, actually
John or another ref said they wouldn’t be able to score a fight, because their focus isn’t really on who’s winning or scoring takedowns. They’re focused on fighter safety and rules.
by rzor on Nov 17, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think the refs who aren’t judging that particular fight could judge it.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
In MD, if you are qualified to ref, you are qualified to judge. I can’t recall anything saying you can’t do both at one event.
You can probably double-duty at one event, but certainly not the same fight.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Nov 17, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
I am 99% sure that Cecil Peoples, of all people, has been a referee and a judge at the same event.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Just to clarify
the quote I was referencing had to do with scoring and being a ref in the same fight. It can’t be done, because a ref has concerns that won’t allow them to focus on scoring as well.
I agree. I think they are too involved in the match to be asked to truly score the match.
I always feel like a horse’s ass when I explain it that way, but it makes sense to me.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
another thing from boxing that has been proven to not work.
Refs judging fights is just too complicated. You see a different fight when you’re in the action. And it is very easy for opinion of a ref to go against the guy he keeps having to warn for borderline activity…etc
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I didn’t mean reffing and judging the same fight. But judging when you rotate out of reffing at the event. This goes to rzor and themachiavellian as well.
Ah...
well then…generally I agree. Although how many times do we think that refs don’t understand the rules. i.e. Takedown, work to pass and get warnings to “work” before being stood up after 6 seconds
Are those same guys going to be able to look at ground work and appreciate what is happening in a scoring context?
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
and I agree with that. But its a temporary fix and a fix that ensures improvement in the judging area of fights. Refs have to go through more training since they are responsible for the safety of the fighters. And some training is better then the none training that some judges get. And a refs training is critical to the AC since the state can be held responsible if they assign someone unqualified. Not sure on there legal burden, but its just a theory.
I don’t think anyone…well, one person, but I don’t think anyone but the one person is arguing that refs judge the fight while they are reffing.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I wasn’t even arguing for refs judging at the same event that they were refing at, I was merely saying that there is no reg saying anything about it in the MD rules. But thinking about it, it makes sense that you use refs to judge since they require training for safety reasons.
Well I’m thinking that, in theory, refs know as much about an MMA fight as anyone.
In theory. For example, Steve Mazzagatti probably shouldn’t ref, same as Cecil Peoples. Although for no reason in particular, I feel like Mazzagatti would do a better job than Big Cec.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I’ve been to events in which the judges didn’t even know the judging criteria that was in place in the state. Illinois doesn’t have ANY criteria in place for GRAPPLING at all. Submission holds in Illinois technically mean nothing in terms of scoring, so you better submit your opponent. This is why I almost hate the fact that Illinois has MMA events sanctioned while having no rules except the boxing ruleset, which has been ported to MMA with the exception that “ported” would somewhat mean they modified it. They didn’t.
I was at an event about three years ago in which a judge was a basketball referee for local high schools. They figured… why not? He refs basketball. Seriously.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Write to the commission. I am trying to get involved in my state so these types of things don’t happen. But I wrote to the man in charge and told him that I wanted to get involved and he called me the next day. we talked and instilled the fact in me that he would make sure MMA was in qualified hands even though he was not qualified to judge MMA. Maybe they will be responsive maybe they won’t, but its worth a shot if you have concerns.
Already involved. Illinois has some current problems that the CSAC had in giving “friends of the commission” free tickets to events.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 17, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I was blown off in my initial attempts. The guy who actually wrote the shitty rulebook, or should I say… copied the boxing rules to MMA is the head guy here in Illinois. So, he was already on my “incompetent” radar, and there are a few people who tipped me off to some of this bullying promoters into giving free tickets. I actually know three promoters who won’t promote in Illinois anymore due to such accusations.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 17, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
There are plenty of other rule books that you can flat out copy. NSAC, NJSAC, CSAC, unified rules. Copying one of these books is in fact easier then creating something new. When did they start sanctioning? and How long has the goof been at the post? This is a topic I am passionate about.
I’d have to look through my various emails. It was sanctioned only a couple of years ago, and even with that said… it’s very loosely sanctioned. I mean, it’s nowhere near the organization that the NSAC and CSAC is, but I can’t blame them. Illinois’ budget is in a complete downfall.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 17, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
im in chitown and its a miracle anything gets done at all. the corruption here is so systemic and incestuous—this whole state is one big bureaucratic ourobouros.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
The budget this is understandable. But creating a new rule book is more expensive then taking a standard one. Its a hard thing to stay on top of tight regs, but it’s easy set the rules up for success. The rules stated with minor variations based on what the commission can handle regulating or if they care enough to be different. Running events will cost the state the same if they have a good set of rules as it does now. Even if they corrected the rules tomorrow, an event could be a disaster, but from what you describe, they rules are going to force a disaster to happen.
Sometimes I don’t get jokes either.
by George Lucas on Nov 17, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Disgusting!
Reading this article made me sick to my stomach.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
When this movie comes out it should be required viewing for MMA judges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVppfHNxH3M
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
On another note....
How stoned is Joe Rogan in that photo? LOL
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
wtf? how you ref a match from the other side of the ring? Like the fat kid in right field picking at the dandelions.
Actually
I thought he did as good as could be expected getting in there as fast as he could. I mean would you prefer he be right on top of the fighters in the way.
If you want to see horrible referring in mma go watch John Shorley walking away from Olaf Alfonso getting pounded into the canvas while he’s out by Razor Rob so he could pick up a mouthpiece. He not only should’ve never been allowed to ref in mma again, but should have been banned from all combat sports from reffing or judging again forever.
by scrambledeggs on Nov 17, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
The worst reffing ever was in Rothwell/Fulton in the IFL – Rothwell dominated Ironman and began GnP – the ref looks over and tells Fulton “Tell me when you want me to stop it.” That the job of the fuckin’ ref to stop it!!! Fulton just had the 1000yd-stare, so Rothwell wrenches a kimura, forcing the tap, and the dumbass ref stops it.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Nov 17, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
having your back against the fence on the other side of the ring is pretty far away. Usually the ref is maybe 5 feat away and moves around with the fighters, how is he supposed to see potential eye gouges or other illegal blows. In this gif I would expect to see him at least near the center of the mat as the fight moves closer to the cage and at an angle where his vision of the action isn’t blocked by one fighter’s back
I hope we keep stoking
the fires on this issue. If fans and participants keep demanding higher quality and accountability in judging, something has gotta give. If we don’t, something like the first Holyfield vs. Lewis fight is bound to happen, which will make the Rua vs. Machida decision seem like the good old days.
I dont think the judging can get that much better. Judging MMA is like comparing apples to oranges.
Say a fighter steps into the cage and gives a A+ performance with wrestling against a fighter who gives an A+ performance with striking, and at soe point they go to the ground where one is pulling off some great GnP and the other gets some really close submissions that almost end the fight.
How the hell are you supposed to judge that quantitatively? It all comes down to your personal opinion about fighting and the effectiveness of different styles. Hence the subjectivity in judging.
On the other hand, if you can’t recognize technique when you see it, you need to GTFO.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
If they did their job properly
Machida would be sittting at home eating nachos and drinking piss wondering what went wrong. Shogun is the man. Makes no sense. Forrest/Rampage fight was freakin close and they gave that to the UFC poster boy. Im confused.
I still maintain that the 10 point must system is the best system I’ve seen.
Where it falls down is in training.
Judges should have to:
- go through training that teaches them the sport.
- be taught how to score 10-8 rounds since the limited amount of time in an MMA bout requires them to not punish a fighter for winning one very dominant round and losing 2 close rounds
- have their scorecards reviewed and be questioned and able to respond as to the reason for their scoring by an informed commission head
This leaves the 10 point must (which 1) isn’t going anywhere and 2) is much better than the un-auditable “fight as a whole” method) in place while also making sure there are people who understand the sport and how to apply scoring.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I’ve seen the designation for 10-8 rounds in both Nevada and Maryland. Based on the criteria for those states, there should be a hell of a lot more 10-8 scores than we have seen.
I think the 10-point must system is fine in theory, but it needs adjustment. The half-point system is not the answer by any means. By doing that, you’re effectively making it a 20-point must system, and what’s the point of that?
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Yeah...
I’ve backed off on fractional scoring.
Basically the reform I think is most needed involves much more training and verification on the commission’s part that the people assigned to judge fights understand the sport they’re judging.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I think everyone agrees that the system needs more granularity when it comes to scoring rounds, but that is not a defect in the 10-point must. Its a defect in its application. But with judges having issues with coming up with a winner, I think is one step at a time. Application of criteria needs to be trained. Then we can get into expanding things like 10-8 round. I simply don’t trust judges to employ more 10-8 if they don’t know what back control is.
So, in Virigina, maybe you make it a one point must system, where the winner of the round gets one point and the loser gets zero or less.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Maybe Virginia should secede from the union again? Maybe DC can claim the George Mason campus for itself and regulate all events there?
I’m fine with that. I mean, I only have the once experience with the DC Athletic Commission, but considering some of the things that happened during that show, I think they have their stuff together.
Which is kind of odd, because I’m about 90% sure that they are all boxing guys. “They” being the judges and commission officials at the show.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Oh, and I agree that the current crop of refs and any new refs need to be schooled on how to judge properly. There is a lot left open to determination from what I’ve seen in MMA scoring guidelines that needs to be clarified. Then there’s the aforementioned issue of certain judges not knowing that back control is more than just a set up for a rear naked choke.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Right...
every system is dependent on people knowing how to use it properly.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Oh...
and I know that Cecil Peoples is genuinely disliked…but same rules apply to his as any other commenter or fighter. bashing is bashing.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 5:27 PM EST reply actions
cmon, theres almost no way to NOT make fun of Mauro Ranallo
by amadeus on Nov 17, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Making fun is okay...
“this guy sucks dick”…etc = not
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
"all those judges are on drugs"
“i mean, the bad kind of drugs. not the ones i smoke.”
Imagine if an NFL ref didn’t know what an onside kick was or an MLB ump not knowing what a bunt is…
Follow me on twitter @JayTeephus and I'll give you a dollar
Imagine if your team’s starting QB didn’t know that regular season NFL games can end in a tie.
Oh, wait, that actually happened.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Solution
Joe Rogan becomes a judge. UFC hires the voice.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
I don’t like a single thing about that idea.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Seriously, they should have judges commentary, just so the fighters can actually hear the judges on tape provide their thinking. That way Dana can fire them.
For example, “Here is Machida getting his ass beat … I am thinking right here that he counterpunched and a punch outweighs a leg kick. He didn’t land the punch but he is the champ so I give that exchange to him.”
Another example: “Here is Randy Couture, he is doing zero damage, but he has Vera against the cage. If they stood there forever, Randy would have to win. Here is Vera, that kick looked like it hurt, but Couture had him against the cage for 4:30 of that round, so the round goes to Couture. Also, Couture’s wife is hotter, so I have to give the decision to him.”
Another example: “Here is Rampage and Rashad, Rampage was a dick in TUF. I don’t like him.”
so much bitching about vera/ couture
if anything, people should be bitching that it wasn’t a draw. neither won the fight. If vera could stop all those takedown attempts, he could get his ass off the cage.
I understand where you’re coming from, but that would have required the judges to score one of Couture’s rounds a 10-10, which seems to be more rare of a score than a 10-8.
Not that I am saying it shouldn’t have happened, I’m just saying that it’s about as likely to happen as someone being finished by an omoplata.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
Sigh. Standard corrections. White and the UFC have no controls over the referees. They are hired by the State Athletic Commisions and the promoters have no say.
Nonstandard correction: the woman with Couture was not his wife. Yet.
I believe the term is “future ex-wife”.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Nov 17, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
joe rogan once said randy couture was his hero. he did come up with the term captain america?
how times have changed. fight was close but vera had the wrong gameplan. randy had ring control and agression. that is half the battle.
yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 17, 2009 11:57 PM EST reply actions
The fight was close, but you should’nt have to factor a fighters gameplan into the rules that way. you can say that couture did enough to win the round because he pinned vera against the cage for four plus minutes. but you can very well say that vera stopped coutures takedowns and nullified randys offense and score that round a draw.
its situations like this that make me wonder if mma will ever be able to be judged “properly”. a few questionable decisions will occur, but there seem to be at least one if not two highly debatable outcomes on every ufc card.
by sadface on Nov 18, 2009 12:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i agree. i'm still sad myself from rua being robbed by the judges vs machida.
not only was it not right. it cost me 470 dollars.
yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 18, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Wait a minute. Just because someone is your hero doesn’t mean you can’t (correctly) conclude that they didn’t win a fight.
I’m a Steelers fan, so of course I love Ben Roethlisberger. Still, if it turns out he actually raped that girl, it’s not like I’m going to say “nope, he’s innocent and a great human being.” Doing that would make me a Ravens fan.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Nov 18, 2009 7:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i agree with that but the fight was close. it was not like rua vs machida
when i was waiting for the decision i thought it could go either way. even brandon vera said he should not have left it up to the judges. he was right. he also should have gotten out of randy’s clinch and landed more leg strike’s, he would have won. this the judges are making all these bad decision’s is getting old. fighter’s are just going to have to submit their opponents and make them tap out or knock them out cold. that way the judges can’t screw you over. peace.
yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 18, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
